If you eat rubbish expect to feel like rubbish!

[gingerbreadgirl]

This is a really interesting thread and I can see where both sides are coming from. I think this is a very complex subject and a very personal one to many people.

Of course CBT is and will always be - until more research reveals something better - the number one tool in our arsenal against OCD. Without it, everything else - including diet - is not going to get rid of it.

However, having said that, lifestyle factors such as diet, exercise, stress, alcohol and caffeine consumption, etc. are much more than just window dressing for the main event of CBT, in my opinion.

I am very lucky to have periods of time when I am largely free of OCD/anxiety - then something comes along as a trigger and it all spirals. I have found that one of the major triggers is diet - if I go more than a few days of thinking 'sod it' and have junk food, sugar, alcohol, caffeine, etc, this is more often than not a trigger for a very bad period of time which I would love to never have again. Diet may not be the cause but it is often the trigger of the initial anxiety and then an obsession comes from that.

Improving my diet gives me the impetus to implement the tools of CBT.

So while I can see the point made by those who are saying diet is not a cure - it obviously isn't and I'm not sure anyone is really trying to claim that. CBT is the gold standard of treatment.

But at the same time, I'd like to thank Tricia for bringing these issues to our attention - thanks to her and others I have paid a lot closer attention to my diet and I feel a lot better for it. xx

[Guest Tricia]

It looks to me that there's quite a few crossed-wires in this discussion.

I read Tricia's first post as venting her frustrations about feeling she's being used as a sounding board. It's hard, Tricia, when you get into this role to lay down new boundaries and stick to them, but you could try telling people that for your own health and wellbeing you are uncontactable between x and y times (for example, eight in the evening and nine in the morning). It's a fair ask and about looking after yourself. If someone is coming to you in crisis, they need to call the Samaritans, Mind, other mental health lines.

I have tried so hard to set boundaries. I've pleaded with one man to call once a day at the most and never in the evenings, when my husband is at home. Yet he still ignores me and he knows I can't often answer the phone, but am here all the time, and that the constant ringing (every ten minutes the other evening) disrupts what I am trying to do. I think the only way is to change my number. I have tried phoning him back once a day and the last time I spoke I begged him not to call me again and that I would phone him the first chance I had. What did he do? Stared phoning again that very evening...

He doesn't want to call the Samaritans, he wants to speak about his OCD and is worried the content of his thoughts would lead to his arrest. I understand that, but just can't take any more. He is seeing a psychiatrist so he is not without some support.

I think when a few other friends started to call more with their woes I felt I'd snap. And not one even asked about me...

[Guest Tricia]

I think that the discussions about vitamin D and diet in general were about putting our bodies in the best possible position for fighting OCD, and alleviating any extra anxiety, depression, fatigue, etc. where possible. I don't think it was being suggested as an alternative treatment for OCD? That was how I understood it anyway.

Absolutely. At no time have I suggested that a good diet and exercise will cure OCD or be an alternative treatment, but I firmly believe that lifestyle choices can help depression and anxiety, for most, which will enable us to cope better with our OCD and any therapy we are doing.

[taurean]

that is not at all right re peoples' demands..

We are very conscious of your own difficulties.

The balance has shifted from trying to help others to them making excessive demands. I think you will have to explain to him that he needs to engage with CBT - there are good self-help books on intrusive thoughts for such problems.

As I Ginger, Caramoole Bear and many others know, helping others takes focus away from ourselves and can be beneficial - but not to excess.

[Guest Tricia]

I backed off on this thread because I could see it had the potential to get heated. Now that we're there I'll throw my two cents in again. In broad strokes I'll talk about depression and anxiety but I'll mostly stick to OCD, since that's what I know about and that's what this forum was set up for.

We can all agree that it's a good idea to eat a well balanced diet. Doing so has many health benefits. Yes, the brain is an organ and will do better if it receives the proper nutrition. Perhaps diet can have a positive effect on depression and anxiety. Great.

However, improving ones diet and taking certain vitamins is not a substitute for tried and true treatments that we know work for the vast majority of people for OCD. Harping on people to change their diet when they are suffering from OCD is like suggesting someone put a bandage (plaster) on a gaping wound when what the person really needs is stitches. What works for OCD is CBT, with or without medications. That's it. There seems to be this wave lately of posts suggesting alternative treatments for OCD, such as taking vitamin D. I will point out that the proponents of vitamin D are, in large part, stuck doing compulsions, so I have to ask in all honesty, what good is the vitamin doing in the treatment of OCD?

Some people get stuck looking for alternative treatments for OCD but quite frankly there are none. If there was something that worked beyond CBT and meds, we'd all know about it and we'd all be touting its benefits. Sure, taking vitamin D supplements might be good for your overall health. But it's not going to have a adversely positive effect on your OCD. You're not going to cure yourself of OCD with vitamin D or a well balanced diet or even come close to it.

Yes, there are benefits to some of these suggestions. But I think on the forum lately they have served as a distraction from the tried and true treatment of OCD.

I am in no way suggesting diet is an alternative treatment for OCD.

As for vitamin D, I began that thread 'D is for depression' not 'D is for OCD'! Vitamin D has a massive effect on mental health. I have personally witnessed someone going from being suicidal to being fine. The only change was in their D level.

How can anyone fight OCD when feeling suicidal? So, indirectly it can help OCD, too.

I don't think harping on about changing diet is equivalent to putting a plaster on a gaping wound. Not in all cases anyway. If a person is seriously deficient in certain nutrients it can make a huge difference.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Tricia

[Guest Tricia]

Which is exactly why we don't encourage people to use the PM box for advice. Most of us here are not experts, we just have our own opinions so none of us are the font of all knowledge so in everybody's best interests we encourage people not to seek advice in PM.

I have written here about being bombarded by phone calls, not PMs.

You need to stop saying this Tricia, you are making it sound like severe depression can be miraculously improved by just improving your diet, which is utter nonsense. Diet can work on a person's mood, which in turn may help a little but severe depression in 99.9% of cases will need more than just improved diet.

I am getting a few complaints about this too, so it is bordering on the edge of being closed.

I don't know why I need to stop talking about the effect diet and exercise had on my severe depression (and my mother's). Surely we can speak about our own experiences here? At no point have I ever said it worked for me therefore it will definitely work for everyone else - just that there's a good chance it will help. Diet and exercise did cure my depression. I have attempted suicide many times. I was just saying to CJay that I didn't merely suffer low mood, which seemed to be her assumption.

I do find it very odd that you are receiving complaints, Ashley. If I had said any of my suggestions were a cure, or a better treatment, that would be different. Am I saying forget CBT and just jog and eat well?!

P.S. I do not agree with your 99.9 per cent comment re. severe depression and diet. My doctor strongly disagrees with you, also!

Edited December 12, 2015 by Tricia

[daisy]

Because of Tricia bringing Vit D to our attention I asked my GP if I could have mine checked and it is low,so he is putting me on a high dose to bring my levels up then he recommends I take a maintenance dose.I also have high blood pressure which I have never had before so it may be because of the Vit D and the extra stress I have been under this past year particularly!

Either way I am grateful to Tricia bringing these things to our attention,because I'm hoping that I will feel better physically then be better able to tackle my depression,stress and OCD.

Thank you Tricia xx

[Guest Tricia]

I know many are aware that Daisy and I are good friends. I just want to emphasize that I am not referring to Daisy in any of my rants here!

Daisy has been a very close friend for two years now and we chat regularly on the phone. We share one of those rare friendships where we both listen to each other and care deeply. I would be in a much worse state without her at this difficult time.

I also want to thank everyone else for so much support. I am very touched and I can see most of you know what I am trying to say!

Sarah, bless you for your messages. I was in tears when I read them as I know how much worse your situation is than mine and yet you took the time to write!

And Lost, you are also so very caring and special to me.

[daisy]

Thank you Tricia for your kind words about me,you help me such a lot also,I just wish I could do more to help you xx

[Ashley]

just that there's a good chance it will help.

So what about all those who do eat healthy, have always eaten healthy and exercise and still suffer with OCD and depression?

Don't get me wrong Tricia I am not disagreeing with your underlying message that we should all be mindful of our diet's, that is good sound advice but you are still here making the claim there is a 'good' chance it will help with depression/OCD. I can think of numerous members who are super fit and eat super healthy but still struggle.

As for talking about our experiences, absolutely feel free to do that, that is what the forum is for. But your thread title 'If you eat rubbish expect to feel like rubbish!' and opening post is about other people eating rubbish, which is very different.

[Guest Tricia]

Maybe the title of the thread wasn't the best but I was extremely stressed.

However, it's not as though I said, 'If you feel rubbish it's because you eat rubbish'. That would have been totally unacceptable. Of course there are those who do everything right and still have awful depression etc.

But, when people keep moaning to me about their woes (and don't attempt to help themselves and have no way of knowing whether their lifestyle is a factor) it does wear me down, especially when it's almost constant.

[CJay]

I was just saying to CJay that I didn't merely suffer low mood, which seemed to be her assumption.

I haven't made any assumptions about the level of depression suffered by yourself - I was merely expressing my opinion that, in general, diet is more likely to affect mood than severe depression to the extent that it no longer exists.

My main diagnosis is severe OCD and I feel that if I didn't suffer from OCD I wouldn't suffer from depression either, but it seemed to me that depression was being belittled and in my opinion it's as devastating a disorder as OCD when it's severe.

I'm glad to hear healthy eating helps your depression and don't doubt that there are many, many others who wish it was that simple for them too.

But if somebody feels they might be suffering from depression than my view is that they should seek help from a health professional rather than relying on "alternatives".

[taurean]

I suffer from secondary depression when OCD is flaring up. The cause of the depression is the OCD - plus a shoulder strain.

I still think, as Caramoole, that we need to follow the sensible approach for our own condition. Depression can exist on its own, with or without OCD, or other anxiety disorders. It can be caused by Seasonal Affected Disorder (SAD) or other deficiencies. I do get SAD too. SAD can be improved by full spectrum sunlight or by using a special forjm of lightbox.I have one.

So yes in some cases a particular deficiency may be involved and it is right to follow that through and see what benefit it may bring.But my secondary depression is consequent upon OCD - it follows that - whilst I am feeling a little better in general as I have been correcting my deficiencies of last week - when I was unable to fit in my normal supplements and wasn't eating very well - that depression is only lifting as and when I make progress with the OCD and shoulder strain.

[taurean]

i might also add that another symptom of depression is flashbacks into the past, or worries about the future. Usually the norm is to simply function in the present so I am needing to address this too.

[Guest Tricia]

I haven't made any assumptions about the level of depression suffered by yourself - I was merely expressing my opinion that, in general, diet is more likely to affect mood than severe depression to the extent that it no longer exists.

My main diagnosis is severe OCD and I feel that if I didn't suffer from OCD I wouldn't suffer from depression either, but it seemed to me that depression was being belittled and in my opinion it's as devastating a disorder as OCD when it's severe.

I'm glad to hear healthy eating helps your depression and don't doubt that there are many, many others who wish it was that simple for them too.

But if somebody feels they might be suffering from depression than my view is that they should seek help from a health professional rather than relying on "alternatives".

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but I thought your remark about low mood was written after you quoted me about my severe depression and suicide attempts.

I'm unsure how you can describe healthy eating and exercise as 'alternatives'!! Surely both are essential and something every one of us needs to focus on?! By the way, it was professionals who told me how much difference diet can make. I am utterly shocked that the basis for good physical and mental health is being regarded by some as quirky alternative treatment.

I dare say my own depression was secondary to severe OCD. My life is incredibly restricted and I am frozen this time of year due to my inability to wear clothes. Also, I stand all day long as I cannot sit on a chair. I am virtually housebound and suffer awful disabling vertigo at times (Meniere's) which leads to bouts of sickness. I am also losing my hearing and can no longer hear the music I love. I can't hear the radio or the television or a normal conversation with my family.The screeching tinnitus never lets up. My daughter-in-law had no tolerance of my OCD and I have lost contact with my son and grandchildren (three of whom I have never even seen). I am not saying any of this out of self-pity, I just want to explain that my circumstances could be much better and yet the depression has lifted. For 35 years I have wanted to die. For 35 years I woke wishing I wasn't alive to face the day. Now, for the first time in all those years I have hope and feel life is still worth living. And yes, I think it's all down to diet and exercise in my case. Nothing else has changed. My husband is still verbally abusive. I never resolved past issues with my mum before she died (over her hostility to me as a child due to my OCD - she didn't want me living with her, I was sent to a boarding school).

A decade of my mother's life was totally ruined by deep depression. Only a change in diet and exercise worked for her. Again this was at the suggestion of her doctor, not some quack!

I will stress once more that I fully appreciate nothing works for everyone. However, it's common sense to give diet and exercise a try and no harm is done if they don't work. The only side-effect will be better overall health, even if the depression and OCD are not helped. And clearly, given how I can't even sit down in my own home and, apart from a couple of hours on my computer (standing up!), almost my whole day is devoted to rituals, I am certainly not a good example of anything working for my OCD!!

[Guest Tricia]

i might also add that another symptom of depression is flashbacks into the past, or worries about the future. Usually the norm is to simply function in the present so I am needing to address this too.

I do still have flashbacks but seem to be coping better, Roy. I hope you can find a way to, as well.

[Guest Tricia]

I read something interesting just now. Apparently people with red hair also have lower melanin levels in their skin which allows for a stronger production of Vitamin D in low light conditions. Whilst it doesn't seem to help in reducing the symptoms of OCD, it's a pretty cool fact to know!

I just missed out on being a real redhead (although called 'Ginger' at school). However, I have never tanned in my life and clearly have little melanin.

I have a chart with my UVB lamp and I am in the top group which does make it easier to obtain D - and also to burn badly! I find my skin turns slightly pink after just 2 minutes, but my daughter has gone up to six and still no sign of any colour. Once you know your MED (minimal erythema dose, where your skin turns slightly pink) you can reduce your time by about a quarter in the sun (or UVB light) and know you're getting a good dose of D. I need about ten minutes' midday summer sun. (The UVB light is equivalent to Mediterranean sun, I believe, so I don't need as long).

[CJay]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but I thought your remark about low mood was written after you quoted me about my severe depression and suicide attempts.

I'm unsure how you can describe healthy eating and exercise as 'alternatives'!! Surely both are essential and something every one of us needs to focus on?! By the way, it was professionals who told me how much difference diet can make. I am utterly shocked that the basis for good physical and mental health is being regarded by some as quirky alternative treatment.

I think my comment about mood was made before then and I've already said myself, and within this thread, that diet and exercise are important. Of course they are, even for a perfectly healthy person - that should go without needing to be said it's just common sense.

I was already aware of your circumstances and feel for you.

I regret getting involved in this thread, I'm not really up to heated debates.

Edited December 13, 2015 by CJay

[taurean]

I do still have flashbacks but seem to be coping better, Roy. I hope you can find a way to, as well.

Still struggling with that. Just a moment ago I suddenly found myself - in my mind - walking up a hill into my hometown. At the bottom of that hill we had a council house. I would certainly rather have these memories at a time I want them.

Yeterday I found myself picturing The Squirrel Inn - a tiny pub in town which had been converted to a fish and chip restaurant. Lovely fish and chips!

Edited December 13, 2015 by taurean

[Lost_in_a_Dark_Maze]

i might also add that another symptom of depression is flashbacks into the past, or worries about the future. Usually the norm is to simply function in the present so I am needing to address this too.

Thank you for saying this. Reading it, I have just realised that I spend most of my time in flashbacks into the past and worrying about the future.

[taurean]

I find that getting really distracted into something interesting helps.

And non-avoidance. Don't find yourself changing what you do - fight back and don't avoid.

Discover things that will be enjoyable in the present - hobbies friends gym a series of books/tv work and refocus back to them.

[SaraJane]

Sorry for this late reply, Sara.

I'm very sorry getting your D level up didn't help with your fibro. You are right, it is encouraging that there are doctors who are aware of the possibility that low D is causing physical (and mental) symptoms for many. It's just such a shame that it wasn't the cause of yours.

Please don't think I am critical of anyone who is overweight. I do fully appreciate the conditions you mentioned and how incredibly difficult it is for many to lose weight, and in some cases impossible to exercise.

I must admit to being at the end of my tether when I began this thread, having more than one so-called friend phoning me at all hours. Each of them eats appallingly (each of them could exercise but doesn't want to) and none has ever even tried to help themselves. And even then, I would not be moaning, or judging, if they weren't burdening me and driving me mad!

Hi Tricia,

Thank you for replying and I hope this week is less stressful for you.

I didn't think you were being critical of anyone who is overweight and I understand and appreciate the message you are communicating about healthy eating and vitamin D.

I hope you can establish the boundaries you need with people and they will respect them. I read a fab book book on boundaries once by a couple of Psychologists called Cloud and Thompson if I remember their names correctly. It is a Christian book but people have found it helpful even if they are not Christians because the psychology within it is sound. It was one of those reads that was life-changing for me and it maybe worth a look.

lots of love xx

[Handy]

One can be fat & a perfectly healthy person.

[taurean]

One can be fat & a perfectly healthy person.

Yes and no. If body mass index is indicative of obesity, then the individual will be at risk of health problems later on if they don't address it.

[Handy]

BMI is not very scientific. Those body builders have an obese BMI.