When do exposures come to an end for someone working to beat their OCD?

[saddaniels]

Alright, so instead of rambling on my TV frequency, I am going to try and list what thought processes cause me anxiety below and I'll also try my best to keep them brief.

Process of thinking that causes extreme fear

1. If something, in reality (ex. 60Hz) has only one option to choose from, less chances of going wrong, changing, or messing up, I feel like I've done something wrong.

2. If I start to feel like I can be confident about something being okay, not changing, not going "wrong", I feel like there must not be enough uncertainty, I've made the mistake of having things "too right" so I strive to figure out in my mind how to make it more uncertain.

3. What if <insert whatever I'm obsessing about here, in its current state> doesn't have much room for messing up and really only has one option. I've done something wrong and I need to create more possibility for "error" or "more options" *sense of panic comes over me*

^ This basically sums up the biggies. If I think of any other thought processes that may differ from above, I'll let you know. My hope is that I can change these thought processes to something actually rational. They feel so irrational, but something is really eating at me saying I must follow the above process of thinking. That they happen to make sense from an ERP standpoint, OCD standpoint of "be with the uncertainty. live in uncertainty. the more uncertainty, the better you can thrive" Its leading me to feel the need to create uncertainty on purpose, uncertainty that wasn't there before, if that makes any sense.  . Its tiring, to say the least.

PS. I know I mentioned the TV frequency and I'm sorry, but I wanted to have an example.

I promised to keep this short, so goodbye for now and hopefully, I'll get over this mess soon.

Edited October 28, 2016 by saddaniels

[saddaniels]

Oh, and I'm scared to death to use the word "certain". Am I allowed to be certain to know that my TV supports only one frequency setting? Can I be certain I'm watching a 60Hz television, after all, it is the only option as far as that setting goes. I've become so caught up in things needing to be off and uncertain, that nothing, in my mind, is allowed to be certain. And if I stray away and get too close to things being realistically as they are (am i allowed to say that, or should I throw in a "probably" before "realistically as they are"), as they happen to be a certain setting,  etc., my mind goes into a frenzy trying to tell myself, "That cannot be certain. I must think of ways of how it isn't certain. I must switch things around to make them uncertain."

^ another thought process.

Edited October 28, 2016 by saddaniels

[Ashley]

11 hours ago, saddaniels said:

That they happen to make sense from an ERP standpoint, OCD standpoint of "be with the uncertainty. live in uncertainty. the more uncertainty, the better you can thrive" Its leading me to feel the need to create uncertainty on purpose, uncertainty that wasn't there before, if that makes any sense.  . Its tiring, to say the least.

I may be wrong, but I don't think your problem is OCPD as previously suggested by another poster, partly because you are not looking for certainty you are now looking for uncertainty (if I am understanding you correctly).

I think this is a great time to use Prof Salkovskis's phrase.... 

The solution becomes the problem

What I think is that you've taken some aspects of the therapy process which in itself has become an unhelpful compulsion?  That's if my interpretation from your text is right that you are looking to create uncertainty and get anxious if you can't create it. 

Is that what you think is happening?

[PolarBear]

Sad, I can definitely see evidence of a Cognitive distortion in your last two posts. You believe that uncertainty must be present for things to be right. I'm sure you got that from misinterpreting what was said at therapy.

It is true that OCD craves certainty. It is also true that we tell people, repeatedly, that they have to get used to uncertainty. But that does not mean you have to be uncertain about everything. There is no requirement for you to become uncertain over something.

Does that make sense?

[saddaniels]

What gets me is that countless therapists have told me certainty does not exist in our world, so anytime I believe something to be right, have one option to work with (the TV), my mind screams "You are too close to certainty, if not completely certain." And I go back to what has been said in therapy, the thing that is supposed to help shrink my OCD and it says again and again (in fact, its the golden rule), certainty doesn't exist anywhere. So, I beat myself up, feeling like I need to make it more uncertain based on that principal of the therapy.

 

It sounds silly typing that, but it feels true because I am working to beat my OCD.

Edited October 28, 2016 by saddaniels

[PolarBear]

You are applying that statement about certainty poorly. Some things are just the way they are. Toasters are made for toasting bread. They aren't made for cooking roast beef. Now are you certain about that or do you simply accept that's the way things are? And this isn't about preference either. It's not like you prefer to cook a roast beef in an oven, that's just the way things are.

It's like you've tried to take a literal interpretation of what you've been told in therapy. But you've gone too far. You way overthink this stuff amd it's causing you real problems.

[taurean]

Working to beat OCD means not listening to the OCD. 

It sets unwanted not needed negative irrational rules, or tries to set them - so we need to go about standing up to them, breaking them. 

All the agonising going on sad is OCD isn't it,  ruminating, testing seeking "nth degree" answers to questions about certainty. 

Perhaps your best plan would be to reframe the core beliefs that are underpinning the OCD,  and working on getting rid of those compulsions. 

For me there is always a negative core belief or beliefs upon which the OCD plays - getting to that core belief and reframing it - showing the intrusions up as pointless worthless mental chaff - can help a lot. 

 

[taurean]

1 minute ago, PolarBear said:

It's like you've tried to take a literal interpretation of what you've been told in therapy. But you've gone too far. You way overthink this stuff amd it's causing you real problems.

This has been cropping up a few times recently and it is very damaging to do this, so spot on PB! 

[saddaniels]

Okay, I know I'm not supposed to be talking about my TV, but maybe it would help to see how I'm looking at things by presenting another scenario, a random scenario with my same flawed thinking

Here is my scenario that I can't get over:

My parents TV has the option of 50hz &60hz. My TV, in storage, that I will eventually have to use, is only 60hz. I feel I can't use my TV because it only has one option, which is 60hz, so I feel the need to create more options, more uncertainty, more ways for 60hz to have a possibility of changing/going the wrong way.

Now, since I'm obsessing around this scenario, even though im aware my thinking has gone ascew, could someone describe another scenario, with whatever object you choose, where this wouldn't make any sense? It may be reassurance, but I think it could help me see from an outside view. Thank you.

[PolarBear]

We don't need to come up with another scenario like yours because your scenario is wrong to begin with. You keep coming back to the same argument but what you're basing your argument on is wrong.

Your TV works a certain way. Full stop. You do not need any kind of uncertainty to use your TV. You use it the way it was designed to be used. Full stop.

You can use your TV with one option, just like the billions of people on earth do. No therapist said to you that you have to build in uncertainty when it comes to watching TV.

Do you understand this?

[taurean]

I haven't a clue whether my TV has optional hz settings or not - and I couldn't care less, since it works as a TV. 

That is the normal rational non-OCD response - all your thinking is the worthless stuff and nonsense that is OCD mental chaff. Vast amounts of mental anxiety and effort for no gain. 

My brain has been at it too these last few days - I have been doing my OCD cognitive and behavioural work as advised , but other than that got myself busy and distracted and achieved things notwithstanding - the more you can tie up the brain beneficially, the least time you will give it for OCD and compulsing. 

[saddaniels]

Yes, that makes sense. However, when are you supposed to build in uncertainty, such as with exposures? Isn't that what exposures are for? To purposefully build in uncertainty, to have multiple options for something to possibly "go wrong" present?  Yes what you say makes sense PolarBear, but if therapy works, you should be tolerating uncertainty, in whatever the situation is. So, I'm just confused as to what uncertainty I'm supposed to be tolerating right now and into the future. 

Edited October 29, 2016 by saddaniels

[PolarBear]

You can't watch a normal TV on its usual settings without being uncertain. You don't need to create any more uncertainty.

Look, the purpose of CBT is not to create deeper levels of uncertainty in sufferers. They're already uncertain. We want to teach them to live with the uncertainty they feel already exists.

You're trying to add uncertainty unnecessarily. It is not required or needed. You're already uncertain so we want you to be comfortable with that uncertainty that already exists.

[saddaniels]

YES! Okay, that makes sense. Its clicking with me. I just hope I have the wisdom beginning right now and into the future that I can recognize what uncertainty already exists, and which uncertainty I'm trying to artificially create for the sake of doing the therapy "right". I wonder how I could recognize the difference between what was already there and what unneeded, extra uncertainty I'm just trying to create.

[PolarBear]

Well it should be fairly straightforward. If you're complicating things then you're overdoing it.

Recovering from OCD is a fairly simple process. It'd hard, but it's simple. If it's getting complicated, you need to stand back and ask yourself what you are doing that's making it too complicated.

What this boils down to is a faulty core belief. You believed that you had to make things complicated to recover. And then you based all of your arguments off that one faulty belief. It's no wonder we were having a difficult time communicating. Lesson learned for all of us.

[pureosufferer]

On ‎27‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 23:46, Ashley said:

STOP.  For whatever reason you are determined to push a diagnosis on the user, and as others have mentioned there is clearly an ulterior motive with your posting across our forums.

It's not your place to say what is boring or not. Your posts are not helping, so time to exit.

 

To be honest neither do I, you're clearly struggling to get your head around this problem hence your constant posting. That said, we can only allow a user to keep posting the same thing over and over before it's clearly becoming more of the rumination that is not helping, so at that point I would step in (as much for you as other people).   But, the first thing I would recommend is you take a moment to focus on Snowbear and Polarbears posts on your thread. They have posted some really helpful replies, you need to try and zone out any side noise for a hour and just focus on reading their responses.

 

I think it will perhaps vary from individual to individual, but I pretty much agree with what the others have said. Generally you should be doing it daily, or depending on the individual perhaps several times a day. You keep doing it daily, perhaps for week or two until the exercise no longer holds any fear or anxiety, at this point you can generally reduce the exercise to bi-daily, then once weekly. If during that reduction time the fear/anxiety crops up you may need to go back to doing it daily for a week or so again.

If after 3/4 weeks the fear and anxiety is still there, it suggests something is going wrong. Either some neutralising compulsion or somehow the thought process is still perhaps catastrophising or you're putting some wrong interpretation on the obsessions.

Thanks Ashley. I spoke to my therapist about this and he does seem to think that I'm wittingly or unwittingly continuing to do some compulsions to neutralise the thoughts/feelings. I am despairing at the minute because I thought I'd really made an effort to do ERP and try to tackle my OCD.