When do exposures come to an end for someone working to beat their OCD?

[saddaniels]

How long is the exposure process supposed to last and when does an exposure become unreasonable? I understand that ritual prevention is the most important aspect when coming to treat OCD, but when does an individual stop deliberately exposing themseleves to certain scenarios/items and just start living a life they want again? If I need to clarify more, let me know. What im basically getting at, to use the most stereotypical example in OCD, is when a person is afraid of germs, when can they begin washing hands normally again, getting on with their day, instead of deliberately touching garbage dumpsters, dirty objects, etc?? Here is my opinion, but I think if you teach ERP to be the only way of getting better (like my therapist is), then it becomes a little obsessive. Sometimes, if not all the time, we gotta get on with our day and live the life we want and that includes not doing exposures all the time, maybe even not doing exposures at all, at some point. I believe ritual prevention is okay to practice 24/7, but exposures, not so much.

 

Curious as to what other people's thoughts are

 

Edited October 20, 2016 by saddaniels

[snowbear]

My views on using ERP therapy alone are fairly well-known, I think, so I'll not indulge in another rant at a therapist taking that approach.   But the answer to your question is simple,

When doing an exposure no longer feels like an exposure.

Or to put it another way; when you're able to get on with your day and live the life you want to live without feeling there is something you could be 'exposed' to or some ritual you 'need' to do that you're preventing yourself from doing. 

[PolarBear]

Snowbear summed it up nicely.

ERP is not something you do 24/7. It should be done about once a day and has an endpoint.

Look, if you can get on with your life and OCD isn't bothering you much then you're where you want to be.

Edited October 21, 2016 by PolarBear

[saddaniels]

10 minutes ago, snowbear said:

Or to put it another way; when you're able to get on with your day and live the life you want to live without feeling there is something you could be 'exposed' to or some ritual you 'need' to do that you're preventing yourself from doing. 

Snowbear, are you saying that my current exposure should be not feeling like that there is something to be exposed to? Just wanting to clarify that. Because, I would agree that is my hardest exposure. Feeling like I must go out and intentionally get a television that in reality, is not a common used TV in America to do my exposures. Its like right now, I would be fine watching my TV because its good enough as is, but I keep getting an intrusive thought saying, "Nope, exposure yourself to an odd television. Thats the answer."

Thank you.

[saddaniels]

I know therapists sometimes expose patients to the most bizarre things, and so i'm feeling like i should do the same with my TV, but to get the odd setting television would take actively searching for that TV and buying a new TV, even though the one I have works, in my eyes. But for whatever reason, I feel I must go out and expose myself to the opposite of what I now think is good enough TV.

I keep looking at it like someone with contamination issues of germs. If they were to think "Oh no, I'm clean enough. Oh no, that's not good because I'm not exposing myself to being unclean right now. Time to get myself dirty on purpose." 

Edited October 21, 2016 by saddaniels

[snowbear]

17 minutes ago, saddaniels said:

Snowbear, are you saying that my current exposure should be not feeling like that there is something to be exposed to? Just wanting to clarify that. Because, I would agree that is my hardest exposure.

saddaniels, I think you've misunderstood what's being said.

When you can sit in front of a TV - any tv, any frequency, any circumstances -  and not even be thinking about whether it's the 'right' TV, not even be aware it is a TV, just watch what you want to watch without thinking about the appliance at all, that's when you will feel that watching TV is no longer an exposure. 

Because it won't be an exposure'. It will be watching TV like a non-OCD person, focused entirely on the programme without any kind of worry about the TV at all. 

Quote

Feeling like I must go out and intentionally get a television that in reality, is not a common used TV in America to do my exposures. Its like right now, I would be fine watching my TV because its good enough as is, but I keep getting an intrusive thought saying, "Nope, exposure yourself to an odd television. Thats the answer."

That's not an exposure, buying a special TV 'to do your exposures on' would be giving in to a compulsion. 

And pointless, because sooner or later you'd have to face the exposure of going back to the TV that's currently making you so uncomfortable. 

The answer is that you need to accept all this rubbish in your head about a TV needing to be a certain frequency is just that - rubbish in your head. 

Any exposure you do should be aimed at showing you these thoughts have no validity, that the frequency of your television is irrelevant nonsense. 

Any action which supports the false belief there is a right TV to be watching on is a compulsion. 

Forcing yourself to watch a TV that you believe isn't 'right' is torture, not exposure. And it will remain torture until you accept your belief that the TV has to be a particular kind is false. It's your thinking you need to change, not the appliance. 

[snowbear]

29 minutes ago, saddaniels said:

I keep looking at it like someone with contamination issues of germs. If they were to think "Oh no, I'm clean enough. Oh no, that's not good because I'm not exposing myself to being unclean right now. Time to get myself dirty on purpose." 

In case anyone with contamination issues is reading this thread, I'd like to point out this thinking is completely flawed and nonsensical.  

What they are aiming for is, 'I understand things I once feared were making me dirty weren't making me dirty - there was never anything to clean in the first place. I no longer feel the need or desire to wash because I'm no longer afraid of dirt.'

It's not about learning to tolerate being dirty all the time without worrying about it.  

It's about changing the belief that any degree of dirt is dangerous and getting things back into normal perspective so the problem ceases to be a problem.  

[saddaniels]

I am confused, I won't try and say I'm not. For people with scrupulosity, and a few friends of mine that I know, therapists may tell them to throw a Bible on the floor, say the Lord's name in vain, not attend church, rip a page out of the Bible, etc. All of these things are far fetched and something a "normal" person wouldn't do. They'd practice religion without going overboard. I get that they won't have to do these exposures forever, that they will eventually go back to things being "good enough." My confusion, still, is where do you come to feeling alright to where you don't have to perform exposures anymore? I'm seeing going out to purchase the wrong TV as exposure, just as far fetched as someone throwing a bible on the ground, because therapists actually have patients throw bibles on the ground. I've witnessed it in treatment. I don't see how the going on to get an odd TV would be any different than this particular exposure. At the same time though, IT DOES seem silly to even care about what frequency my TV is on. I should just be able to watch my television as is. However, it may seem silly to a person with scrupulosity that they must perform compulsions to "get it right" and so as an exposure, they go far fetched and throw a bible on the floor, etc. 

I'm not trying to argue. Just trying to describe where I'm getting stuck. I'm obviously approaching this from the wrong angle because I keep comparing my problems with what others might do in ERP. Its getting me tripped up and its not helping.

What you said makes sense snowbear, it does. However, I keep going back to how some exposures are indeed far-fetched. Grrr, its frustrating.

Also, same to a therapist who will tell a patient to purposefully change his/her settings on a computer to make them the "wrong" way. I actually had to do this in therapy and I watched my computer blurry for about two weeks, with all the wrong settings, and having discoloration of my monitor. So, now, I'm comparing this exposure to needing to go out and mess up settings (purchasing an odd, not usually used TV). This is how I'm relating everything and its getting me so, so stuck. Its like if I did an exposure similar to this before, I should be, I NEED to do it again. And you're right, is it torture, because I don't want to go buy an odd TV, it would be a waste of money, and quite frankly I still have some sense in my head thats saying "that doesn't sound right. i don't need to buy the wrong TV for an exposure. Mine is working fine as is." Still, OCD pulls and pulls, continuing to beat me up so much that its getting hard to go on about my day.  

Edited October 21, 2016 by saddaniels

[saddaniels]

57 minutes ago, snowbear said:

That's not an exposure, buying a special TV 'to do your exposures on' would be giving in to a compulsion. 

And pointless, because sooner or later you'd have to face the exposure of going back to the TV that's currently making you so uncomfortable. 

 

What confuses me is that therapists will get patients to go out of their way, do bizarre exposures sometimes. That's what is troubling me so much. If a therapist will ask a patient to go out their way to throw a bible on the floor, curse, etc., why is my scenario of needing to expose myself to an odd TV any different? I keep battling with myself because of this and other reasons.

Edited October 21, 2016 by saddaniels

[PolarBear]

And you're still stuck in the same place, doing compulsions over how to do exposures. That's the thing... This has little to do with the setting on the TV and everything to do with you having OCD about how to overcome your OCD.

Your posts above are written down ruminations. They are evidence that you keep going over this in your head, again and again. Right now you are the hamster on the OCD wheel.

You've been flat out told not to buy another TV and to expose yourself to the TV you have now. But that's not good enough. You ruminate and ruminate, come up with bad examples of why you should buy a new TV and come here looking for reassurance. It's all OCD.

Youve got to get control of your compulsions. Forget about exposures right now. You've got to reign in your incessant ruminating. Stop analyzing how other people handle exposures. 

[snowbear]

I see why you're confused, saddaniels, and it's understandable. But maybe it's time to stop drawing comparisons with other cases as it's this which seems to be causing you confusion and creating a new compulsion to 'do what they do'.

27 minutes ago, saddaniels said:

a few friends of mine that I know, therapists may tell them to throw a Bible on the floor, say the Lord's name in vain, not attend church, rip a page out of the Bible, etc. All of these things are far fetched and something a "normal" person wouldn't do. They'd practice religion without going overboard.

The salient point here is that they get to a point where they can practise their chosen religion without going overboard on scrupulosity, not what kind of exposures they went through to reach that outcome.

Personally I think the Bible stomping etc isn't necessary, but then I think sticking your hand down a toilet as an extreme exposure to germs isn't necessarily the best way to approach contamination fears. It's not wrong, but neither is is the only method of doing exposures, nor is it always effective at changing someone's underlying thinking processes.

It's the thought processes driving the OCD which need to change, the faulty belief system which has led to over-reactive scrupulosity or over-reactive cleanliness which needs to be addressed. 

Or in your case, the faulty thinking that a TV's frequency is of any importance whatsoever.

Exposures don't have to be either extreme or bizarre. Any therapist who says they do is lacking in awareness of what OCD is and how it operates. That's not to say bizarre or extreme exposures don't work - they can do. But as I said, it's the thinking that drives the OCD behaviour which needs to change. If doing something bizarre achieves that for some people then let them get on with it. 

44 minutes ago, saddaniels said:

IT DOES seem silly to even care about what frequency my TV is on. I should just be able to watch my television as is.

 Exactly. It is silly to care about the frequency. That you can see this is progress. Well done! 

That you're beginning to accept you CAN be comfortable watching your TV as it is, that's more progress. 

Then you go and spoil it by reverting to the idea you have to do bizarre exposures to reach this comfortable way of thinking.   It's almost as if overcoming your OCD just by changing your thinking was too easy for you so you're making it harder for yourself by looking for an exposure method you can do in order to achieve what you've already achieved with logic.  

Guess that's the danger of teaching people that treating OCD is all about 'exposure therapy' instead of teaching them recovery is about changing your thinking.  

Just keep in mind your ultimate goals - to resist doing any kind of compulsions and to accept there's nothing wrong with your TV, that it's just faulty thinking which has made you feel uncomfortable.

Sometimes people get confused what is a compulsion and what is exposure. So here's a list of possible compulsions to help you distinguish between the two:

- the urge to do something to 'correct' your TV is a compulsion

- the urge to seek out innovative exposures is a compulsion

- thinking about how other people do exposures is ruminating (a mental compulsion)

- trying to figure out what kid of TV you should be watching is also rumination

- any behaviour which inadvertently or directly supports the faulty belief TV frequency matters is a neutralising compulsion. Labelling it as an 'exposure' is to misunderstand what an exposure is and means you're telling yourself you're starving the OCD when you're actually feeding it.  

And as Polar Bear says, your biggest compulsive behaviour has always been to keep ruminating on all this, endlessly looking for answers. The answer is to stop thinking about it - to 'expose yourself to not ruminating', if that's how you prefer to look at it. 

Find some other topic to occupy your thoughts.

[saddaniels]

Thank you for your responses, snowbear and PolarBear. I will say that I received intense treatment with mainly, the top priority being getting ERP done correctly. We didn't have DBT, ACT, or any other therapy techniques incorporated just as equally as ERP. I believe things did go off the rail and probably because of that. Currently looking for a therapist who incorporates all therapy methods for OCD, not just a "certain" one. That to me seems like OCD in itself.

[saddaniels]

Just got a huge migraine from watching a TV show. I made it through, but during it I was thinking "Oh no, I'm performing a compulsion by realizing most people watch their TV's on 60Hz here in America, and so therefore since I don't really need/want the TV to be on 50Hz, I'm performing a compulsion." And its true, I don't want the TV to be on 50Hz because the TV works fine on 60Hz and because that's also the standard for TV's in America! I can just hear my therapists saying I'm committing a compulsion because of saying I want the TV to remain on 60Hz and not 50Hz, because 50Hz isn't what most people are watching their TV's on. 60Hz is what most people are watching their TV's on, so why am I beating myself up over this reasoning? I hate OCD and I hate my brain. I feel like there is no hope in going forward to pursue a career in film/writing. None at all, because this stupid, tiring, painful, sadistic disease has taken over my mind and is keeping me from writing what I want to write about and keeping me from experiencing my love of films. And maybe more importantly, its keeping me from living life. I'm so burnt out.

Edited October 22, 2016 by saddaniels

[saddaniels]

I feel like me having a preference on how I want to watch my television is OCD.

[saddaniels]

I'm just saying, as a human being, I think I should be allowed to have a preference for 60Hz frequency on my television, just as someone without OCD may have a preference to watch their movies on a widescreen TV and not a standard box TV. I keep hitting a wall though, because I feel like if I tell myself "60Hz is my preference because I don't need 50Hz. Yes, I can technically watch my content on both, but I'd rather watch it on 60Hz, because that is the standard. Also, because 60Hz does seem to appear a little better than 50hz because of picture smoothness."

 

I'm afraid I cannot do this because what I said above would be committing a compulsion and that is BAD. I just really want to move on and say I find 60Hz fine FOR WHATEVER REASON, and get on with it.

[PolarBear]

The compulsion you need to work on is the one where you are ruminating over this subject.

[saddaniels]

Now I'm trying to figure out why I want to leave the TV on 60hz. Is it because the screen looks better that way? And, would thinking like that be a compulsion?

[PolarBear]

You shouldn't be thinking about it all. That's the way you watch TV. that's the end of it.

[snowbear]

3 hours ago, saddaniels said:

Now I'm trying to figure out...

Stop right there. Enough said. 

Any time you catch yourself trying to figure something out you're ruminating. Ruminating is a mental compulsion.  

You constantly fear you might be doing compulsions based on your physical behaviours and yet you repeatedly overlook your endless ruminations about compulsions as being a compulsion!

Trying to figure things out is a compulsion. Sop trying to figure things out. 

[saddaniels]

Its just that now I think I'm wanting to stay on one setting (60Hz) because the other setting (50Hz) is not what I prefer the setting to be on. And for whatever reason, I'm afraid that is a compulsion and I'm ruminating about it. Its like I'm not even allowed to have preferences anymore and have things the way I want them to be without being afraid I've performed a compulsion. Its ridiculous. This is no way to live. This is torture. People without OCD make purchases based on what they want all the time. They arrange things the way they like them, even it has no real significance in how they are arranged. But, they still get the free will to arrange them based on their preference. Why can't someone with OCD do that? Me trying to achieve not having an opinion isn't working because as a human being, we all have opinions on things and that shouldn't be wrong. 

[saddaniels]

Why do I feel like its so wrong to prefer 60Hz over 50Hz right now? I just want to leave it on 60Hz, and get on with my life. A voice then pops into my head saying "You like 60Hz better than 50Hz, thats a compulsion. You can't have an opinion on what you like better. By saying you like 60Hz, you're saying 50Hz isn't an option, better expose yourself to 50Hz now because you're saying 50Hz isn't an option based on it not being good enough. If something is wrong by watching it on 50hz, better watch in on 50hz." The intrusive thoughts never stop. They just don't stop. 

[saddaniels]

and yes, i know, i shouldn't listen to them, but it is extremely hard when that's all you hear in your head. I'm beginning to think there is no way out of this. Ever.

[PolarBear]

There is a way out. You need to stop freaking out about the thoughts. They're only thoughts. And you have to curb and eliminate your compulsions.

Your posts above, again, are written ruminating. I can tell that's what you think about. It's all ruminating and it's all a compulsion. The good news is you can train yourself to stop doing it. It takes lots of practice but you can do it.

[snowbear]

1 hour ago, saddaniels said:

i know, i shouldn't listen to them, but it is extremely hard when that's all you hear in your head

Sometimes you need a distraction to break the cycle of ruminative thoughts. Fill your head with something else for a while, give yourself an alternative to think about instead of letting the thoughts dictate how you spend your time. Physical activity or something which occupies your hands and mind together works best. 

One thing is for sure, you won't break the cycle of ruminating by ruminating on what is or isn't a compulsion. 

[saddaniels]

I just can't risk that I may be watching the TV at 60Hz because I don't like it on 50Hz. That I've made the decision to leave it on one setting and not go back to the other because I don't like the other. I'm afraid I've done this and therefore performed a compulsion. Its awful. Maybe my exposure should be "Maybe I did, maybe I didn't commit a compulsion. Oh, well." But, that just seems upside down and against what I originally went into therapy for, which was trying to make physical objects a right way. Now, its trying to make the therapy a right way.

But regardless, compulsions of any kind freak me out now. I am always on guard of what is a compulsion and what isn't. And I'm ruminating which is also a compulsion. I just beat myself up whenever I think I've done a compulsion and I'm not even sure if keeping my TV fine as it is, is a compulsion. I want to keep it as it is because I don't want it on the other setting. I want to keep it on the most practical setting. But then I think, oh, maybe i'm keeping the TV as is because I think something is wrong with the other setting and therefore I'm doing a compulsion. 

Edited October 23, 2016 by saddaniels