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Cleaning my teeth


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Look, if you've been properly diagnosed with OCD then you have OCD. You're not going to get any more certain than that. And if you've been diagnosed with OCD and eveyrthing you do around your rules looks like OCD then the rules are OCD and you'll just have to come to terms with that. Accept it and move on.

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what would need to happen in order for you to know for certain that you have OCD?

what would need to happen for you to know for certain that you don't have it?

If you're not sure that you brushing your teeth is OCD, then find other compulsions which you know are compulsions to tackle first, and leave the brushing to think about last.

Also, if you do acknowledge your brushing to be OCD-based, then you know what's coming: if it's a compulsion, you have to stop doing it if you want to get better. But if you stop these compulsions, you will experience anxiety.

So maybe you are trying to avoid the anxiety caused by you not brushing your teeth that certain way: that's why you won't acknowledge it as a compulsion, that's why you would go to the extent of saying that you don't have OCD, only to avoid that anxiety.

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Thanks! To be honest I'm not that worried about whether cleaning my teeth 'counts'. It's my other rules that affect my life a lot more and I feel I need to know if they are OCD.

To answer your first two questions- I don't know. Probably nothing, because if someone tells me they are sure it's OCD I'll end up doubting it shortly after.

This is becoming a big problem.

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That's the Catch 22, kaheath. No matter how much reassurance you get, you'll soon end up doubting it and you'll back to asking for more reassurance. It's a hallmark of OCD. I've met many people who have this about their OCD in particular. You'll have to take a leap of faith that this is all OCD and start treating it as OCD. I'll tell you this -- going to group and treating your rules with CBT isn't going to do you any harm whatsoever.

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I know. In my case it's complicated by my BPD worrying if I don't have OCD how can I get attention. But I think it's perfectly possible for it still to be OCD despite having a BPD cause for the worry? I know some people have bad thoughts and worry it's not OCD in case that means they're just bad. In my case I worry it's not OCD because I want the attention, although actually also because I feel guilty a lot and worry I'm misleading people. But whatever the reason it's the same as people worrying they don't have OCD because it would mean they are bad. Right?

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would it matter if I told you that it doesn't matter if it's OCD or not?

I'm not talking about anything else, you have, I want to talk only about the 'we haven't had sex this week I need to plan it otherwise we'll break up' rule.

So you believe that if you don't have sex once a week, you'll break up.

It doesn't matter that you have OCD or not in this point, I repeat.

What matters is that your belief it's irrational. 

There are a number of irrational thinking patterns, and your belief falls in one of them. It's one that's called magical thinking, but I like to call it Mama Omida thinking, because in Romania we have a famous witch called Mama Omida.

Let's tell you a story, there was this famous witch Mama Omida, who claimed to be able to foresee the future, and was making a lot of money off stupid people.

One day her house got robbed. She was robbed of 80000 euros, because that's what famous witches do, they keep all their money in the house.

Now tell me, if this was that good and was indeed able to foresee the future, how come she didn't foresee that she was going to get robbed? Why didn't she know when this would happen, so she could inform the police? Why she was unable to provide the police with data about the robbers, if she was such a good witch?

Now the conclusion is simple: if a famous and versed witch like Mama Omida wasn't able to foresee the future in fact, much less we can.

Magical thinking isn't found only in people with OCD: it's an irrational thinking pattern which anyone can have.

Let's think about a worried mum, who wouldn't want to let her kid play in the park because he might break his leg. That's magical thinking.

Let's say you have an argument with your partner and you say something and you believe that they think that what you said is BS, even before they opened their mouth to say their opinion about what you just said. That's magical thinking.

So, let's say that you believe that your partner will break up with you if you don't have sex once a week. That's magical thinking.

When we have an irrational thought which bothers us in any way, it upsets us, maybe it makes us do a compulsion (as I stated before, everyone might have irrational thinking patterns, it's not OCD related - in people without OCD, these thoughts too cause distress. it comes in the form of dysfunctional emotions, such as: anxiety, depression, fury or panic), the healthy action would be to REPLACE the thought with a more rational one. Rational thoughts cause functional emotions, so even if they are negative, they are not debilitating: sadness, worry (instead of anxiety which is excessive worry), anger.

The goal is to replace irrational thinking patterns with rational thinking ones.

The rational alternative to Mama Omida thinking (or magical thinking) is a thinking in terms of possibilities and probabilities:

Let's say you have an exam, and you are not very prepared. That means that you have little chance to take it. That will cause WORRY (not anxiety) which will motivate you to study hard for five days. Now your probability of taking that exam is very high and you feel well prepared and you would go with confidence to that exam, and most probably you will take it.

So your irrational thought it's best discussed with a trained CBT professional which whom you get along well. Compatibility is key in therapy :) and also him/her being a trained CBT professional.

So don't take my word for it, I'm just giving you an example of how could you tackle this thought.

"My partner will break up with me if we don't have sex once a week"

is this possible? yes. everything is possible.

but how probable is it? I BELIEVE that it's highly unlikely:

-> what evidence do you have? none. 

-> it happened in the past? even if it did, it's not relevant, because you're with another partner now.

-> did your actual partner broke up in the past with someone because they didn't have sex once a week? I suppose s/he didn't; which adds to the "highly unlikely" theory

-> it happened to others? again, not relevant, because you and your partner aren't "others", you are two individual and unique human beings

So having considered the points above mentioned, I would conclude that the rational approach would be:

Yes, my partner could break up with me if we don't have sex once a week, but given the fact that I have no evidence of it whatsoever I conclude that it's HIGHLY UNLIKELY that this would happen.

I'll prevent the fact that the sentence above might spike you.

Thinking in terms of possibilities and probabilities comes from a place where you believe that everything could, in fact, be possible. Better said, it comes from a place that we can't be certain 100% of anything. Because trying to be 100% certain is irrational.

So, given the fact that we can't be sure of anything with 100% certainty, the other way around would be that everything is possible. So things are possible with so little a probability and so little evidence, in fact, no evidence, that it's not even worth it bothering about it.

So I'll reframe the proposition in a way that i think would spike you less:

Yes, my partner could break up with me if we don't have sex once a week, but given the fact that I have no evidence of it whatsoever I conclude that the probability of it happening it's so low that I won't even bother about it.

Now you concluded that your thought is irrational, you replaced it with a rational one.

What to do next?

We, in recovering from OCD, we learn that we can't stop a thought from popping into our heads, right? Thoughts are just like clouds in the sky. They come and they go.

So, even though you deemed a thought irrational, it may still pop into your head, once in a while.

What can you do about it then? Nothing. Remember the part where I said that thoughts are just like clouds in the sky? The thought will come, but if you don't do anything about it, as it came, it will pass and dissipate, just like clouds in the sky! So no need to worry about it, if it comes, just continue with whatever you were doing and it will soon go away.

If you find it hard to do it, then I suggest learning and practicing the basics of mindfulness and mindful meditation.

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4 minutes ago, chaosed said:

would it matter if I told you that it doesn't matter if it's OCD or not?

I'm not talking about anything else, you have, I want to talk only about the 'we haven't had sex this week I need to plan it otherwise we'll break up' rule.

So you believe that if you don't have sex once a week, you'll break up.

It doesn't matter that you have OCD or not in this point, I repeat.

What matters is that your belief it's irrational. 

There are a number of irrational thinking patterns, and your belief falls in one of them. It's one that's called magical thinking, but I like to call it Mama Omida thinking, because in Romania we have a famous witch called Mama Omida.

Let's tell you a story, there was this famous witch Mama Omida, who claimed to be able to foresee the future, and was making a lot of money off stupid people.

One day her house got robbed. She was robbed of 80000 euros, because that's what famous witches do, they keep all their money in the house.

Now tell me, if this was that good and was indeed able to foresee the future, how come she didn't foresee that she was going to get robbed? Why didn't she know when this would happen, so she could inform the police? Why she was unable to provide the police with data about the robbers, if she was such a good witch?

Now the conclusion is simple: if a famous and versed witch like Mama Omida wasn't able to foresee the future in fact, much less we can.

Magical thinking isn't found only in people with OCD: it's an irrational thinking pattern which anyone can have.

Let's think about a worried mum, who wouldn't want to let her kid play in the park because he might break his leg. That's magical thinking.

Let's say you have an argument with your partner and you say something and you believe that they think that what you said is BS, even before they opened their mouth to say their opinion about what you just said. That's magical thinking.

So, let's say that you believe that your partner will break up with you if you don't have sex once a week. That's magical thinking.

When we have an irrational thought which bothers us in any way, it upsets us, maybe it makes us do a compulsion (as I stated before, everyone might have irrational thinking patterns, it's not OCD related - in people without OCD, these thoughts too cause distress. it comes in the form of dysfunctional emotions, such as: anxiety, depression, fury or panic), the healthy action would be to REPLACE the thought with a more rational one. Rational thoughts cause functional emotions, so even if they are negative, they are not debilitating: sadness, worry (instead of anxiety which is excessive worry), anger.

The goal is to replace irrational thinking patterns with rational thinking ones.

The rational alternative to Mama Omida thinking (or magical thinking) is a thinking in terms of possibilities and probabilities:

Let's say you have an exam, and you are not very prepared. That means that you have little chance to take it. That will cause WORRY (not anxiety) which will motivate you to study hard for five days. Now your probability of taking that exam is very high and you feel well prepared and you would go with confidence to that exam, and most probably you will take it.

So your irrational thought it's best discussed with a trained CBT professional which whom you get along well. Compatibility is key in therapy :) and also him/her being a trained CBT professional.

So don't take my word for it, I'm just giving you an example of how could you tackle this thought.

"My partner will break up with me if we don't have sex once a week"

is this possible? yes. everything is possible.

but how probable is it? I BELIEVE that it's highly unlikely:

-> what evidence do you have? none. 

-> it happened in the past? even if it did, it's not relevant, because you're with another partner now.

-> did your actual partner broke up in the past with someone because they didn't have sex once a week? I suppose s/he didn't; which adds to the "highly unlikely" theory

-> it happened to others? again, not relevant, because you and your partner aren't "others", you are two individual and unique human beings

So having considered the points above mentioned, I would conclude that the rational approach would be:

Yes, my partner could break up with me if we don't have sex once a week, but given the fact that I have no evidence of it whatsoever I conclude that it's HIGHLY UNLIKELY that this would happen.

I'll prevent the fact that the sentence above might spike you.

Thinking in terms of possibilities and probabilities comes from a place where you believe that everything could, in fact, be possible. Better said, it comes from a place that we can't be certain 100% of anything. Because trying to be 100% certain is irrational.

So, given the fact that we can't be sure of anything with 100% certainty, the other way around would be that everything is possible. So things are possible with so little a probability and so little evidence, in fact, no evidence, that it's not even worth it bothering about it.

So I'll reframe the proposition in a way that i think would spike you less:

Yes, my partner could break up with me if we don't have sex once a week, but given the fact that I have no evidence of it whatsoever I conclude that the probability of it happening it's so low that I won't even bother about it.

Now you concluded that your thought is irrational, you replaced it with a rational one.

What to do next?

We, in recovering from OCD, we learn that we can't stop a thought from popping into our heads, right? Thoughts are just like clouds in the sky. They come and they go.

So, even though you deemed a thought irrational, it may still pop into your head, once in a while.

What can you do about it then? Nothing. Remember the part where I said that thoughts are just like clouds in the sky? The thought will come, but if you don't do anything about it, as it came, it will pass and dissipate, just like clouds in the sky! So no need to worry about it, if it comes, just continue with whatever you were doing and it will soon go away.

If you find it hard to do it, then I suggest learning and practicing the basics of mindfulness and mindful meditation.

Thank you for a long and helpful post. I totally get what you're saying, but it matters to me because I can't talk about my OCD over rules at the OCD support group if the rules aren't OCD.

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I've been reading today about counting compulsions being common in OCD. Some people count steps they walk etc. Apparently some people do it for a reason (if I don't walk exactly 30 steps someone will die, for example) and others just can't stop doing it.

Doesn't this sound like my compulsions? Except instead of counting I time. And I do it because I think something bad will happen if I don't. Like I'll get fat or whatever.

So maybe just a more unusual form of counting OCD? Hence it is OCD?

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I know, sorry. I'm just finding it hard that I can't get complete certainty over this.

Incidentally, someone once said (not in relation to me) that the doubt and compulsions about not having OCD are so typical of OCD that even if that was the only symptom someone had, they'd still be diagnosed with OCD.

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