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Can someone tell me what this is please?


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You say 'thoughts' like you know they are just thoughts. I don't know.

Yes im fearful of saying what it is, I can't help that and I will feel worse saying it. I understand your trying to help me though.

 

 

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I know what it is but only because I put all the clues together. 

But as Bear says, it will always be the fear of something catastrophic, or something the OCD blows up into being catastrophic. 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Saz said:

Yes im fearful of saying what it is, I can't help that and I will feel worse saying it.

 Saz,

This fear of saying it aloud is what gives it power over you. The more scared you are of saying it aloud (or typing it here) the bigger a deal it becomes in your mind.

Saying it aloud, talking about it, is nature's way of getting things back into normal perspective. Talking about our traumatic experiences allows us to heal from them. Bottling it up keeps the problem going and sends us crazy. That's true whether the experience was real or imagined. So the point you repeatedly make about 'I don't know if it's true or not' is irrelevant.

Start talking about the 'memory'. About your feelings towards it. The thing you're most afraid of is to get it out in the open and examine it in daylight, but if you EVER want to move on from where you are now, that's the first step.

 

4 hours ago, Saz said:

I think it's understandable why I think like this, given what I'm reading and hearing about.

Yes I probably am more concerned about the consequences because if true then that's it.

This is the second step you have to tackle, Saz.

It's not what you're reading and hearing about that is making you fearful, it is the meaning you put on it. You're interpretation of what you read and hear is the problem. 

It's understandable that someone whose thinking is driven by fear will misinterpret everything they hear.

It's understandable they will get things wrong and yet be totally convinced they have interpreted things correctly. 

It's understandable the fear of imagined consequences is so great it keeps you not wanting to face reality. What you're failing to see is reality is not what you imagine it to be.  

 

Something being an understandable reaction doesn't make it the right reaction, or necessary. 

Can you at least accept you put an incorrect meaning on the 'triggers' you're seeing around you? And that you're also putting a false meaning on the consequences you imagine? 'That would be it' isn't realistic. As long as you cling to the belief that it is realistic thinking, you'll be afraid to talk about your thoughts/memory 'just in case it's real'.

So you go round in circles and continue to give your current thoughts false meaning. The problem isn't about some false 'memory' any more, it's about how you're thinking now and your current faulty interpretation of the world around you.

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4 hours ago, Saz said:

You say 'thoughts' like you know they are just thoughts. I don't know.

Yes im fearful of saying what it is, I can't help that and I will feel worse saying it. I understand your trying to help me though.

 

 

Yes I do say thoughts. I say that with confidence because your story is no different than the scores of similar stories I've heard, it follows standard OCD, you do compulsions, there are identifiable inyrusive thoughts, there's lots of doubt mixed in and there is absolutely no proof you've done anything wrong.

So long as you stay fearful of the thoughts they will keep their hold on you. 

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Trying to push our thoughts away, fearing them is itself compulsive. 

It's why in exposure and response prevention we are told to expose to, allow space to, then sit with those unwanted distressing thoughts - feel the emotional response they evoke, but sit through and beyond it. 

My therapist B, herself a former sufferer from harm OCD, and follower of our very own Professor Paul Salkovskis' teachings, gave me two especially wonderful pieces of advice. 

1. Diminish the power of the thought by saying mentally to myself dismissively "Oh that's just my silly obsession"; this re-attributed it to OCD, and I could identify it as just mental nonsense - Brilliant. 

2. The fork in the path. Take the left fork and I would follow her teachings, leave the obsessing behind and find peace. 

Take the right fork and believe what the intrusions are saying, and I would enter into a world of vicious cycles anxiety distress and restricted living. 

Saz, you took the right fork and are still walking that path. 

And by repressing not expressing your obsessional thought you are constantly looking over your shoulder in deep fear.

 

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Hi Saz,

I've not been around on the forums for a while but I'm having a particularly anxious morning so I thought I'd pop on.  So sorry to hear that this is still causing you grief.  I know exactly how it feels- it still catches me out on a bad day. 

I wish I could help- my advice as always, is to let it go and move forward.  Take the leap of faith that this is all ocd and move forwards- you owe it to yourself to try this.  Take the leap of faith and move one- see how it feels.  It gets easier.  I promise.

Binx

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13 hours ago, snowbear said:

 Saz,

This fear of saying it aloud is what gives it power over you. The more scared you are of saying it aloud (or typing it here) the bigger a deal it becomes in your mind.

Saying it aloud, talking about it, is nature's way of getting things back into normal perspective. Talking about our traumatic experiences allows us to heal from them. Bottling it up keeps the problem going and sends us crazy. That's true whether the experience was real or imagined. So the point you repeatedly make about 'I don't know if it's true or not' is irrelevant.

Start talking about the 'memory'. About your feelings towards it. The thing you're most afraid of is to get it out in the open and examine it in daylight, but if you EVER want to move on from where you are now, that's the first step.

 

This is the second step you have to tackle, Saz.

It's not what you're reading and hearing about that is making you fearful, it is the meaning you put on it. You're interpretation of what you read and hear is the problem. 

It's understandable that someone whose thinking is driven by fear will misinterpret everything they hear.

It's understandable they will get things wrong and yet be totally convinced they have interpreted things correctly. 

It's understandable the fear of imagined consequences is so great it keeps you not wanting to face reality. What you're failing to see is reality is not what you imagine it to be.  

 

Something being an understandable reaction doesn't make it the right reaction, or necessary. 

Can you at least accept you put an incorrect meaning on the 'triggers' you're seeing around you? And that you're also putting a false meaning on the consequences you imagine? 'That would be it' isn't realistic. As long as you cling to the belief that it is realistic thinking, you'll be afraid to talk about your thoughts/memory 'just in case it's real'.

So you go round in circles and continue to give your current thoughts false meaning. The problem isn't about some false 'memory' any more, it's about how you're thinking now and your current faulty interpretation of the world around you.

Thanks snowbear

It is relevant if it's true or not, I don't understand how that can't be relevant.

I agree I probably do put an incorrect meaning to triggers, I often jump to worse case thinking. I think polar bear and roy are right that I keep linking it all to my 'memory'. I am interpreting things wrong sometimes I admit, I just trigger with what I hear. To be honest if I had no 'false memory' issue I would still be effected by what I have been reading and seeing recently, I get deeply effected by injustices in this world and sad stories upset me. I share the same issues with Roy in regards to that. 

Snowbear how can not knowing if my memory is real or not be ok? It's a terriblething and I do hate talking about it because to me I feel it makes it seem more real. 

14 hours ago, PolarBear said:

Saz, if you did write it on the forum it was a long time ago. Frankly I can't remember if you're the one who thinks she killed someone at a bar, thought you made out with the boss in an elevator or raped a toddler in a bathroom. Jive dealt with many people with your OCD theme and the stories all blur together.

That said, I have asked you about posting it here before and you don't do it. Why? I suspect it is because you are very fearful of the thoughts. I think if you say it in here, several times, and tell yourself what the thought is repeatedly, the thought will lose some of its sting over time.

I mean, come on Saz. I've had thoughts for decades about raping children and bludgeoning people to death. Your thoughts just can't be any worse. You have to realize you're just one of millions of people with the same kind if thoughts. You are not unique. Your thoughts are no worse than anyone else's.

 

5 hours ago, taurean said:

Trying to push our thoughts away, fearing them is itself compulsive. 

It's why in exposure and response prevention we are told to expose to, allow space to, then sit with those unwanted distressing thoughts - feel the emotional response they evoke, but sit through and beyond it. 

My therapist B, herself a former sufferer from harm OCD, and follower of our very own Professor Paul Salkovskis' teachings, gave me two especially wonderful pieces of advice. 

1. Diminish the power of the thought by saying mentally to myself dismissively "Oh that's just my silly obsession"; this re-attributed it to OCD, and I could identify it as just mental nonsense - Brilliant. 

2. The fork in the path. Take the left fork and I would follow her teachings, leave the obsessing behind and find peace. 

Take the right fork and believe what the intrusions are saying, and I would enter into a world of vicious cycles anxiety distress and restricted living. 

Saz, you took the right fork and are still walking that path. 

And by repressing not expressing your obsessional thought you are constantly looking over your shoulder in deep fear.

 

Roy and polarbear and snowbear even though I have stated what my fear is, I will say it a final time. I am worried I committed a terrible crime by being inappropriate/forceful with someone at a wedding. The person in my 'false memory' is much younger, in my image/memory the memory is in a toilet so I have nobody to say that no that definately did not happen. I have had  2 friends say it did not happen as they were with me all night - I know that not to be the case because I know I went to the toilet a couple times on my own. I know I seen the person concerned outside the toilets early on in the evening so I think possibly this is where I might be getting confused and where my false memory stems from. I was very sensible all day drinking water and only really drank in the evening. The next day I woke with very bad anxiety and worry and tried to remember all what had happened. My friend said to me 'do I remember showing my knickers' (now I know that sounds funny) I didn't but apparantly I done a cartwheel right at the end of the night and I didn't initially remember it. So then the word 'knickers'  kind of stuck in my head and I kept focusing on them and that made me think of going the toilet and obviously pulling them up and down (as you do when you go to the toilet) but you can imagine my horror when trying to think what else have I done that I don't remember I got the distressing image of me causing harm in the toilet. I don't even know how I would have been in a situation where I would have been in a cubicle with this person as they would not have asked me to help them as they weren't that young and I have a habit of knocking on toilet doors to make sure the cubicle is empty before I go in. It's just this scenario seemed so detailed, it had words spoken in it,  clear images. It's was scarily real and because I woke with worry I thought that this must be it! However I did not initially think of  this till  a day or 2 later. I was a wreck messaging people who were there as I just felt something wasn't right.  I was crying etc. I did think at one point had I just cheated but my mind seemed so fixated on the worser scenario. My mum thought perhaps I'd been spiked because of how drunk I apparently was (which isn't like me as I hate not being in control) and because of how blurry things were. 

So here I am today 4 and a half years later, crippled with fear and with a whole load of added anxiety and worry. 

I do worry about writing on here because someone from the outside might think we need to speat to the person who saz thinks she may have hurt to check and even if that person did turn round and say I have no memory, people might just think he can't remember and I will still lose everything because it doesn't mean it's not true. 

Edited by Saz
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1 hour ago, Saz said:

I agree I probably do put an incorrect meaning to triggers, I often jump to worse case thinking. I think polar bear and roy are right that I keep linking it all to my 'memory'. I am interpreting things wrong sometimes I admit, I just trigger with what I hear. To be honest if I had no 'false memory' issue I would still be effected by what I have been reading and seeing recently, I get deeply effected by injustices in this world and sad stories upset me. I share the same issues with Roy in regards to that. 

 

Good - something to work on here then Saz. 

 

1 hour ago, Saz said:

Snowbear how can not knowing if my memory is real or not be ok? It's a terriblething and I do hate talking about it because to me I feel it makes it seem more real. 

It isn't possible - EVER . You can never know, and we weren't there - but what we see fits the blueprint of all that we have seen on this theme of OCD. And we know that you personally have read about plenty of other false memory scenarios.

I am not going to quote those, you know them anyway , but I am going to tell you of two other scenarios that again show the power of OCD to distort our thinking.

In the book behind me on my shelf, "The Feeling Good Handbook" by David D.Burns, he describes a patient of his who,every time she saw a police officer, was convinced he or she had come to arrest her for some crime she was convinced she must have  committed, but had no recollection of.

In "Brainlock" Jeffrey Schartz describes a patient who, every time he went out  for a drive in his car, was convinced - when he returned home - that he had knocked someone over. There would be no evidence on the car, and he felt obliged to exactly retrace the steps of his journey to check for a body.

Now do you understand the power of the mind to distort reality in OCD?

1 hour ago, Saz said:

I do worry about writing on here because someone from the outside might think we need to speat to the person who saz thinks she may have hurt to check and even if that person did turn round and say I have no memory, people might just think he can't remember and I will still lose everything because it doesn't mean it's not true. 

This is absolute classic indication  of OCD Saz.  Your case is no different to anyone else's. Those members here like Binxy and Gingerbreadgirl who have recovered from this theme of OCD saw what was going on, and elected to stop giving it meaning, stop ruminating about it, not react to the connections to it the OCD sought to make, and keep up distraction and refocusing away.  And they recovered.

You know what to do, and only you can activate it.  We can't make the changes for you.

Edited by taurean
typo
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Saz, thank you for writing that out. I vaguely remember that scenario, though there have been so many I've read as I said they all tend to blend together. More than as as reminder to me, I wanted you to write it out so you can face it. I think you should write it out every day, at home. Write it out a million times... and work on not performing any compulsions after. Classic ERP exercise. Over time it would take the sting out of the intrusive thoughts.

Next I want you to realize that your intrusive thoughts are no worse than anyone else. A hallmark of False Memory OCD is that the intrusive thoughts are always about illegal activities or something that, if it were true, would be devastating to the sufferer. Your thoughts are just par for the course. Being sexually inappropriate with a minor is one of the common thoughts with this theme. So is murder. You can't get worse than murder. I want you to realize that your thoughts are not unusual, not unique and not any more scary than thoughts suffered by lots of other people.

You've set things up nicely that you can never set this thing aside. Obviously one way to put an end to the debate is to ask the young person if anything bad happened that night. However, according to your post, you wouldn't accept that as the truth anyway. You would then go on to think that person either forget it, blocked it or is lying about it. That is so classic OCD. Even unflappable proof is not proof to the sufferer. OCD will always conjure up a way for the intrusive thoughts to be true, despite all evidence to the contrary. This does not back up your claim that it may be true. This backs up the fact that this is all OCD.

So in the end, you punish yourself daily in case something happened that night, despite you having absolutely no evidence. In fact, unless that young person spoke up and told someone that something did happen, there will NEVER be any evidence. It's a perfect storm of OCD you are facing. Despite no evidence, you are willing to punish yourself relentlessly just in case it is true. There is a perfectly plausible, alternate explanation and that is that you have OCD and that your 'memory' is nothing more than intrusive thoughts. But you aren't willing to hang on to that explanation, just in case.

What would you say if one of your kids came up with the same kind of story and began punishing themselves, just in case? Would you stand there and tell your kid they should continue to punish themselves just in case they did something wrong and even though it can never be proven that they did something wrong? What would you tell your kid in the same position?

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Thanks polar bear. Appreciate your feedback.

I don't know why but I had a wave of anxiety reading your reply. 

If it were one of my kids saying this I think I would try to find out to be honest as it's a pretty serious matter.

I am very worried that someone reading this is going to want to speak to me about it all due to the nature of the 'memory' . I must look like I might have possibly committed a crime.

I feel very, very panicked.

 

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3 minutes ago, Saz said:

If it were one of my kids saying this I think I would try to find out to be honest as it's a pretty serious matter.

 

But what if you couldn't find out? What if there was no proof of any wrongdoing but your kid insisted she might have done something? Would you agree that she should punish herself forever, just in case?

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5 minutes ago, Saz said:

I am very worried that someone reading this is going to want to speak to me about it all due to the nature of the 'memory' . I must look like I might have possibly committed a crime.

 

There's that paranoia again. First off, you're anonymous on here. No cop is going to try and track you down. Secondly, you don't look like you might have committed a crime. You look like you have OCD.

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Polar bear and Roy this is just impossible. 

No I wouldn't want my child to punish themselves just incase. I think i would try and speak to people concerned though, Im not sure. 

I feel sick. How do you know someone isn't going to trace me? Sorry if that does sound like I'm paranoid buy do you blame me.

 

 

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I'm trying to show you that you would not hold your children up to the same strict standard you hold yourself up to. I know you wouldn't. You know you wouldn't. You'd let your kids off the hook... something you are unwilling to do for yourself.

Nobody is going to trace you. No, I don't blame you. I blame your OCD. There is no valid reason to be freaked out that the cops are come looking for you over what you've said on here. None whatsoever. There is no sense worrying about the cops showing up. It's a waste of emotions. Regardless what you wrote a few posts ago, you have nothing to be fearful of, except some rather nasty intrusive thoughts.

Saz, out of a compulsive need, some people with your OCD theme have gone to the cops and 'confessed'. Quite quickly the cops dismiss the confession and the people go back to their ruminating ways.

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Do you honestly think that if you approached this person, asked them outright if you had sexually assaulted them, and they said No, you hadn't.....that this anguish would stop?  Because I can assure you it wouldn't.  It may recede for a couple of days but then the doubt would be back, you're brain will conjure up a host of reasons as to why "the other person" hadn't remembered properly, that they were wrong.  You can ask the person, you can ask friends and family, you can hand yourself in to the Police and when you'd exhausted all of these options you'd find yourself at the same point, with the same fears.  What then?

If you could stand in our shoes and read these things you would see just how ridiculous it all looks.  I'm not for one minute saying you're ridiculous nor denying how real this seems to you or how painful & frightening it feels, OCD does that. BUT.....and it's a very big BUT, the book stops with you and how you choose to proceed with this in the future.  You can carry on futilely trying to resolve this as you have been or you can use the advice and start to move forward in a way that will change the outcome.  

No punishment is worse than the one you are daily inflicting on yourself, you're imprisoned already by your OCD

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Well done for posting that, Saz.

I have to be frank though, when I read it I thought "is that it?", because I can't believe you've been obsessing and ruminating over that for over 4 years. I wish you could just see that it really is just OCD chaff. It is so clear to me and to everyone else in this thread.

Your response to these thoughts is so overblown. You're consumed with paranoia that writing your thoughts down will mean the police are going to take your kids away, but you need to begin to relearn that thoughts are literally powerless, inconsequential, and nothing to be afraid of.

To be honest, most people's intrusive thoughts/false memories that they post about on here have been much more graphic, intense and frightening than what you've posted. So if there was a shred of truth in your worry that the police are going to arrest you and take your kids away then surely they would have arrested all of us by now? Clearly that hasn't happened and won't happen, so it's obvious that it's just OCD at work here and nothing else.

The only way for you to move past this is to start believing that the thoughts you've been having are simply not true. Even if you aren't ready to believe that yet you have to act as though they're not true. So that means no compulsions and no reacting to the thoughts whenever they pop up. Keep on doing that for a while and you will quickly see the thoughts for what they are - inconsequential OCD thoughts and nothing more.

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50 minutes ago, Lynz said:

Well done for posting that, Saz.

I have to be frank though, when I read it I thought "is that it?", because I can't believe you've been obsessing and ruminating over that for over 4 years. I wish you could just see that it really is just OCD chaff. It is so clear to me and to everyone else in this thread.

Your response to these thoughts is so overblown. You're consumed with paranoia that writing your thoughts down will mean the police are going to take your kids away, but you need to begin to relearn that thoughts are literally powerless, inconsequential, and nothing to be afraid of.

To be honest, most people's intrusive thoughts/false memories that they post about on here have been much more graphic, intense and frightening than what you've posted. So if there was a shred of truth in your worry that the police are going to arrest you and take your kids away then surely they would have arrested all of us by now? Clearly that hasn't happened and won't happen, so it's obvious that it's just OCD at work here and nothing else.

The only way for you to move past this is to start believing that the thoughts you've been having are simply not true. Even if you aren't ready to believe that yet you have to act as though they're not true. So that means no compulsions and no reacting to the thoughts whenever they pop up. Keep on doing that for a while and you will quickly see the thoughts for what they are - inconsequential OCD thoughts and nothing more.

Hi lynz and thank you.

I did think that perhaps I hadn't gone into enough detail because believe me the images I had were beyond awful. Feel like I've made it sound less worse than what it is.

51 minutes ago, Caramoole said:

Do you honestly think that if you approached this person, asked them outright if you had sexually assaulted them, and they said No, you hadn't.....that this anguish would stop?  Because I can assure you it wouldn't.  It may recede for a couple of days but then the doubt would be back, you're brain will conjure up a host of reasons as to why "the other person" hadn't remembered properly, that they were wrong.  You can ask the person, you can ask friends and family, you can hand yourself in to the Police and when you'd exhausted all of these options you'd find yourself at the same point, with the same fears.  What then?

If you could stand in our shoes and read these things you would see just how ridiculous it all looks.  I'm not for one minute saying you're ridiculous nor denying how real this seems to you or how painful & frightening it feels, OCD does that. BUT.....and it's a very big BUT, the book stops with you and how you choose to proceed with this in the future.  You can carry on futilely trying to resolve this as you have been or you can use the advice and start to move forward in a way that will change the outcome.  

No punishment is worse than the one you are daily inflicting on yourself, you're imprisoned already by your OCD

Caramoole what if I asked the person and they actually said it was true! To be honest I spoke to my friend about this a few years back and I asked her to ask the person (they are related) and she said no as they wouldn't understand. She did say it didn't happen and I'm pretty sure she said it was all anxiety.

I am glad you think it looks ridiculous because I'd rather that than you think it's true. 

I just think that mine is one of those cases were it all come out later. I did try to rationalise it and say (apart from the obvious that I would never ever do this) that if I had done this then surley something would have been said at the time straight away by the person! However I know this isn't always the case and my brain says maybe they wouldn't have realised and thats why nothing was said, i mean look at a lot of these stories you hear of. Grrrrrr this is so frustrating and so hard! I want a break and I'm sure you all want a break from me too!  

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4 minutes ago, Saz said:

I did think that perhaps I hadn't gone into enough detail because believe me the images I had were beyond awful. Feel like I've made it sound less worse than what it is.

You still don't get it. You think your thoughts are somehow so much worse than everyone else's and by default that makes them 'real'. You are so far from the truth Saz. Millions of people around the world have awful thoughts and they're just as bad, if not worse, than yours. For some reason you can't compute that other people have the same, awful thoughts as you.

Here's a line from my book, Truth be Told:

I thought about hitting, pushing, slapping, hammering, stabbing, running over, shooting, maiming, torturing, mutilating and killing people.

Do you understand that? I had what I call mind videos. I didn't just think a thought. I saw myself doing the act. I saw blood. I saw teeth flying. I saw bits of skin and brain matter splattering all over the place. I actually tortured, killed people in my head. I sexually abused kids in my head. It happened all the time and I'm sorry but your intrusive thoughts are no worse than mine were for 40 years.

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Saz it's NOT an exception to the usual OCD blueprint. For us, there is no case to be answered. 

You have had absolutely excellent advice tonight, but all you want to do is listen to the machinations of your mind, not the wisdom of those who understand what is going on. 

The time to listen time to change is overdue. 

 

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This thread is really counter-productive to helping you Saz.  Rather than taking anything from it and trying to change your reaction, it is being used as a vessel to carry out compulsions.  Our posts are now aiding the constant rumination, you are constantly looking for that one magic answer to make things better (reassurance) etc

I suppose you need to stop and ask yourself honestly, what are you looking for from the thread?  What is it you're wanting to take away from it?  I can only see one thing at the moment and that is the search for absolute certainty, and as explained many times......sadly you can't achieve that.  Maybe take a little time to question your motives for the thread(s)

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I learned years ago that in all walks of life I would be completely wasting time, and my life away, fighting battles I couldn't possibly win. 

That was wise advice from my best overall life coach , Dale Carnegie.

None of us seeking certainty in an OCD scenario can EVER achieve it - that battle can NEVER be won - it's not just a long odds shot, it's an impossible shot. 

Any time devoted to it whatsoever is therefore completely, and absolutely, futile. 

Please bear this in mind Saz when you consider your answer to Caramoole's question. 

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4 hours ago, Caramoole said:

This thread is really counter-productive to helping you Saz.  Rather than taking anything from it and trying to change your reaction, it is being used as a vessel to carry out compulsions.  Our posts are now aiding the constant rumination, you are constantly looking for that one magic answer to make things better (reassurance) etc

I suppose you need to stop and ask yourself honestly, what are you looking for from the thread?  What is it you're wanting to take away from it?  I can only see one thing at the moment and that is the search for absolute certainty, and as explained many times......sadly you can't achieve that.  Maybe take a little time to question your motives for the thread(s)

I understand. I'm sorry.

Thanks everyone for their support.

Binxy hope your ok too.

 

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