Dealing with obsessions

[Foreigner]

I obsess over a past event, which is pocd-related. It`s not like a false memory, it is a real event, but I guess I`m uncertain about if what I`ve done is really bad. Deep down I don`t think so, but then, there is still this uncertainty. What if my moral jugdement is all wrong, and that people actually would hate me for what I`ve done?

Anyway, I`ve learned a lot through posting and reading in here. Especially all good advice about taking the leap of faith and treating ocd as ocd. I`ve decided to believe that this obsession is ocd.  Ocd lies, and should not be paid attention (through compulsions). I believe I`ve made good progress through this approach. My anxiety level is lower, and I am able to focus and participate in my life to a greater extent that a few months ago. Still, I feel that the obsession is always there. Sometimes it`s almost not noticeable at all, sometimes it`s very strong. When I feel that the obsession is troubling me, I try my best not to do compulsions, but it`s still uncomfortable. It`s like a voice whispering into my brain: "are you sure about this beeing ocd, you may be wrong." And the longer this voice "whispers", the stronger the doubt gets. 

I`ve been lucky enough to experience years without ocd, and I guess I`m impatient to get back to that state of mind. Now I can, as I wrote, enjoy life to some extent, but I feel that the obsession is always lurking around the next corner. Sometimes I just get tired of "working" to keep my mind occupied. When can I really lower my shoulders and relax? Does anyone relate to this, and do you have any good advice?

[taurean]

1 hour ago, Foreigner said:

Still, I feel that the obsession is always there. Sometimes it`s almost not noticeable at all, sometimes it`s very strong. When I feel that the obsession is troubling me, I try my best not to do compulsions, but it`s still uncomfortable. It`s like a voice whispering into my brain: "are you sure about this beeing ocd, you may be wrong." And the longer this voice "whispers", the stronger the doubt gets. 

This is a normal experience, like as if the disorder is trying to hook you back. 

But resistance pays off; if it doesn't get attention - and it craves attention - it weakens. 

Remember, it can only hurt us when we give belief to its lies and fabrications. The "whispers in the ear"  are simply intrusions, and we need to ignore them in order to conquer them. 

1 hour ago, Foreigner said:

but I feel that the obsession is always lurking around the next corner.

Yes, but you have made a lot of progress. 

Keep the faith, keep believing it's OCD,  keep not allowing yourself to connect with the meaning it gives intrusions, and it should fade more into the background. 

PolarBear, a recoveree, says that he still occasionally gets intrusions - the difference now is that, as would a non-OCD person, he is able to simply mentally ease them away. 

[PolarBear]

You can relax anytime you want. The only thing holding you back is you. I'm sure you continue to give meaning to the thoughts, rather than dismissing them and getting on with your day. They are just intrusive thoughts. They don't mean anything. The less attention you pay to the thoughts the better off you'll be.

[Foreigner]

23 minutes ago, PolarBear said:

 

You can relax anytime you want. The only thing holding you back is you. I'm sure you continue to give meaning to the thoughts, rather than dismissing them and getting on with your day. They are just intrusive thoughts. They don't mean anything. The less attention you pay to the thoughts the better off you'll be.

 

But intrusive thoughts do produce negative feelings. I don`t feel that I control that, and per se I can not relax any time I want.

[OceanDweller]

1 minute ago, Foreigner said:

But intrusive thoughts do produce negative feelings. I don`t feel that I control that, and per se I can not relax any time I want.

You CAN control your thoughts Foreigner. And in doing so, control your emotions. This is the bedrock of CBT. And it works if you work at it.

[Foreigner]

As I`ve understood it, you can`control which thoughts that pop up in your mind, but you can control wether you pay them attention or not. But even the precense of a thought (if so even in the back of my mind) is enough to make me feel uncomfortable.

[OceanDweller]

2 minutes ago, Foreigner said:

As I`ve understood it, you can`control which thoughts that pop up in your mind, but you can control wether you pay them attention or not. But even the precense of a thought (if so even in the back of my mind) is enough to make me feel uncomfortable.

In the same way that we can't control much of what happens in our lives, obsessive thoughts may be difficult to tame. However, as in life, it's our reactions not the events themselves that govern how we feel. Just as nobody can make you feel a certain way unless you let them, so intrusive thoughts need you to give them credence in order to thrive. Deny them that and you rob them of all their power.

[snowbear]

18 minutes ago, Foreigner said:

But intrusive thoughts do produce negative feelings. I don`t feel that I control that, and per se I can not relax any time I want.

You most definitely DO have control of your feelings. Your initial reaction to something may be harder to control, but there's no need to stay with whatever that first feeling happens to be. 

As OceanDweller said, in CBT you learn how to change your emotions by changing your thoughts. How you react to your thoughts behaviourally also matters (whether you ruminate on them negatively, dismiss them, or counter them with positive and rational thoughts).

With practise you can switch from negative emotions to positive ones in the blink of an eye just by choosing to shake off the bad feelings and be happy instead. But it does take some practise and in the early stages of acquiring the skill you also need some determination not to dwell in the arena of negative feelings. I suspect that's where you've been struggling a bit, drawn as you are to your memories of days spent in happier self-analysis. You want to be able to reflect as before, but have temporarily lost the ability to keep it on track so it's become harmful rather than beneficial. For the time being therefore, self-reflection is probably not something you should be doing except perhaps as part of a structured course of CBT under the guidance of a therapist. 

[taurean]

54 minutes ago, snowbear said:

With practise you can switch from negative emotions to positive ones in the blink of an eye just by choosing to shake off the bad feelings and be happy instead. But it does take some practise and in the early stages of acquiring the skill you also need some determination not to dwell in the arena of negative feelings.

Just want to confirm this. It's difficult to shake off bad habits and negative bias - but we can change our automatic reaction, we can switch to a more positive bias. We have to find then nurture the desire to work away at this, the determination to succeed. 

We can learn bad behaviours and habits and they become entrenched. But they can be reversed and new neural pathways built that enable us to look on the bright side, take reverses in our stride and not dwell on them. We can even learn to take a detached view of a negative issue, turn it around and make lemonade out of its lemon.

And I really cannot see that introvert reflection is great for you foreigner. For me, dwelling on the past, or the future - other than learning from our past mistakes then forgetting them, or making sensible financial or life planning - e.g. saving for a home /pension and seeking a partner - is  unhelpful for mental health, and can cut us off from society at large. 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2017 by taurean

[paradoxer]

2 hours ago, Foreigner said:

But intrusive thoughts do produce negative feelings. I don`t feel that I control that, and per se I can not relax any time I want.

It sounds like you're doing a pretty good job - and know full well OCD's MO. Like you, overt OCD, came to me late in life. I guess I had a good run. As tough as it is - other contributers may disagree here - it doesn't (from a therapeutic POW) matter how you feel, it's how you react that's the thing. Having said that, life is short. But if you want to feel better overall, you have to be prepared to feel worse.    

[Foreigner]

On 15.4.2017 at 23:15, snowbear said:

With practise you can switch from negative emotions to positive ones in the blink of an eye just by choosing to shake off the bad feelings and be happy instead.

And how do I do that? I`m going into CBT in about a month, but I was hoping you could give me some information too.

[snowbear]

 

54 minutes ago, Foreigner said:

how do I do that? I`m going into CBT in about a month, but I was hoping you could give me some information too.

CBT will teach you the fundamental principle : how you think and behave influences how you feel. So what you choose to spend time thinking about matters. Whether you're aware of it or not, when you have negative thoughts and feelings going round your head you are choosing to spend time on those thoughts and feelings rather than choosing to let them go.

There can be many reasons for this. The commonest are:

- believing negative feelings are the price you pay for the perceived greater good of fixing the problem in your thoughts, so you persist in trying to fix the problem. (Failure to recognise that letting go of the problem IS the fix for both problem and feelings.) 

- believing you don't deserve to feel happy unless you sort the problem that is making you bad, so you keep trying to fix the problem by thinking things through (ruminating.)

- believing you have no control over feelings/emotions so you accept their presence and wait passively for them to change by themselves (they won't!) Negative feelings won't change unless you change your negative behaviours (includes behaviours such as choosing to spend time trying to fix the problem in your thoughts.)

Letting go of negative feelings is about becoming aware that your thoughts are making you feel bad and choosing to redirect your attention elsewhere. You can either move your attention to something neutral or actively introduce activities you know make you happy.

It's about being mindful (observing the moment without judgement.) Negative feelings arise out of making judgments (this is bad, that is good.) If you pass judgement on your feelings (stress is bad, sadness is bad) it creates a downward spiral where you feel bad  just because you were already feeling bad.

Learn not to judge yourself, your circumstances, or your feelings. Positive isn't 'good', negative isn't 'bad', they just are. Once negative and positive feelings are perceived as being equally ok (simply where you're at in that moment rather than having any importance) then paradoxically the 'bad' feeling lifts and you start to feel 'good'. 

That's probably not a very clear explanation, sorry. Maybe someone else can word it better!

[taurean]

It's a great explanation of the process snowy in the sort of format I believe our friend likes. 

But, in my time-honoured fashion, I will give a little simplified overview. 

We do all our obsessing compulsing, and trying to solve problems, in the active "doing"  part of our brain.And that's also where we are judgemental.

So if we have a, learned behaviour, negative bias, then that becomes the point of view we take - we expect failure, and so we get it - and we enter a repetitive, and downward spiral of seeing only negatives and endlessly looping on obsessions and compulsions. 

But if we challenge the negatives, always look to find the positive or more beneficial emotions in any situation, and at the same time shift focus into the benign "being"  part of our brain, we can enter the mindfulness state, where we live just in the present, in the moment, and enjoying pleasurable emotions such as love, kindness, joy, happiness - and we can literally laugh things off. 

As snowbear says, when we get really practised, really good, at this we can effect the change into this state autonomously and seamlessly.

 

[Foreigner]

I believe that maybe the "core-fear" of many of my obsessions is related to the question "who am I?", that is to say that I fear the answer of this question. And I guess that I at some level do pay attention and give importance to that question. But is that to do compulsions? Isn`t that a question that all people from time to time ask themselves? And in the extension of this, could anyone of you experienced users in here say something about wether finding out how to deal with ocd at the same time is about finding your own identity? For example, I struggle to find out how I should deal with the thoughts like "what would others think of me".

[OceanDweller]

3 minutes ago, Foreigner said:

I believe that maybe the "core-fear" of many of my obsessions is related to the question "who am I?", that is to say that I fear the answer of this question. And I guess that I at some level do pay attention and give importance to that question. But is that to do compulsions? Isn`t that a question that all people from time to time ask themselves? And in the extension of this, could anyone of you experienced users in here say something about wether finding out how to deal with ocd at the same time is about finding your own identity? For example, I struggle to find out how I should deal with the thoughts like "what would others think of me".

I've always believed Foreigner that it's our actions that define us. If you're wondering who you are, act how you would like to be.

[taurean]

Not all intrusive thoughts are OCD ones. They can come from various cognitive distortions too. 

In my opinion The OCD ones need to be handled by seeing them for the fear or revulsion brought about by its lies exaggerations and attacking of our core values.

The other ones need to be handled by rational response.

 

[Foreigner]

5 minutes ago, taurean said:

Not all intrusive thoughts are OCD ones. They can come from various cognitive distortions too. 

In my opinion The OCD ones need to be handled by seeing them for the fear or revulsion brought about by its lies exaggerations and attacking of our core values.

The other ones need to be handled by rational response.

 

Could you please elaborate?

[taurean]

If you Google cognitive distortions you will find the common ones that aren't OCD ones. There are 15 of these. 

When we identify these, we challenge them with rational responses. The standard way in CBT, from what I have learned, is to write the thoughts down, identity the distortion, then write down what would be the rational response to the thought. 

Black and white (all or nothing) thinking is a common one, as also mind -reading - considering another person is thinking negatively about us, without any evidence to support that. 

So maybe take a look at your intrusive thoughts, and identify which are OCD manifestations such as magical thinking, and which are actually another form of cognitive distortion. 

The OCD ones need treating as we have been advising, the others by rational response. 

 

Edited April 17, 2017 by taurean

[Foreigner]

8 minutes ago, OceanDweller said:

I've always believed Foreigner that it's our actions that define us. If you're wondering who you are, act how you would like to be.

I follow you, but my obsessions seem to focus on wether I have done something in my past that would make other people hate me. And what really messes up mind, is that I both obsess over past actions that I kind of know were morally wrong, and at the same time I also obsess over past actions that I really don`t believe were wrong (they maybe were a bit silly, but not immoral like the other cathegory), but that I fear others would consider as wrong. And not only considering it as wrong, but as something they would hate me for. It`s obviously important for me what others think, and it`s also important that I perceive myself as a morally good man with integrity. As I have written before, I have been lucky enough to have long periods in my life without beeing troubled by ocd. Then I have felt that these variables (perception of myself and what I believe others believe of me) have been in a kind of balance. This balance has been crucial for my well-beeing, but now the ocd is really messing it up.

[Foreigner]

7 minutes ago, taurean said:

The OCD ones need treating as we have been advising, the others by rational response. 

But are the different types of distortions (OCD and non-OCD) often related? That is to say, do OCD-sufferers often experience both? And does CBT apply to both? This was an interesting approach, taurean. When I have posted here earlier, I have always been presented for the same approach/advice regardless of what my obsession is. It would be interesting to here what PolarBear has to say about this.

[OceanDweller]

4 minutes ago, Foreigner said:

It`s obviously important for me what others think, and it`s also important that I perceive myself as a morally good man with integrity. As I have written before, I have been lucky enough to have long periods in my life without beeing troubled by ocd. Then I have felt that these variables (perception of myself and what I believe others believe of me) have been in a kind of balance. This balance has been crucial for my well-beeing, but now the ocd is really messing it up.

I just wonder whether there's a self-esteem issue at play here pal. I like to think of myself as a morally good man with integrity (eloquently expressed by the way). So long as I'm living according to my own ethics, I couldn't care a jot what anyone else's opinion of me is. Why does what others think matter so much to you?

[taurean]

6 minutes ago, Foreigner said:

But are the different types of distortions (OCD and non-OCD) often related? That is to say, do OCD-sufferers often experience both? And does CBT apply to both?

The answer to all three questions is yes.

 

[Foreigner]

1 minute ago, OceanDweller said:

Why does what others think matter so much to you?

Good question, I have to reflect a bit on that one. And this relates to what taurean and I discussed too, regarding the right therapeutic response. Maybe I shouldn`t always use this "let it go approach" to every single intrusive thought, but actually try to identify wether these thoughts are symptoms of a more basic problem (like putting too much emphasis on what others think). On the other hand, I`m afraid that going that way would mean that I actually pay more attention to my obsessions and then at the same time actually doing compulsions through rumination.

[taurean]

My wife is a "mind-reader",  as was her mother. 

When my wife does it, and tries to get me to agree with her, I point out that she is mind-reading and there is no evidence to support her view. 

I think she is gradually taking on board that it is an unhelpful cognitive distortion. 

Do I care what other people think about me? 

It's nice to be liked and loved, and I have lots of friends and associates; and at work I was one of the senior technical people so it was part of my job to help and mentor others, and their clients and be a go-to person, as well as performing that duty to my own clients . 

So I have no reason to mind-read unfavourable things about me - but I certainly believe, in fact I know, there are things about me that some people don't like. 

Do I care about that?  No, it would be wasted effort, so I simply accept it and move on. 

Edited April 17, 2017 by taurean