Desperate for help for son now

[paulfoel]

Getting worse. Has now taken to blaming everyone else. I understand this and we've tried and tried. He goes to see counsellor but next day hes back to normal. He just cannot be bothered.

Hes aggressive, violent. He punches things, he throws things. Its getting beyond. He will stand in the middle of the room and scream at the top of his voice. You try to calm him and ask him to go to another room to calm down but he refuses and stands there and says what are you going to do about it.

A lot of the time this is in front of his 4 year old sister who he also treats badly. I'm afraid its going to come to a head and we're going to have to take drastic steps. Hes going to do something stupid like hurt his sister or punch someone.

What we can do? Tempted to call social services and get them to take him away temporarily. Don;t want to do that and appreciate the problems he has but I'm not so sure hes safe to be in the house at the moment.

[PolarBear]

I seriously have to wonder if there's more than OCD going on with your son. I haven't heard of many sufferers who show this level of outrage and defiance.

Warn him. Put your cards on the table. Tell him you've had enough and if he doesn't change his ways and come clean about what's really bothering You, you will have no choice but get social services involved. And tell him what that means... possible long term hospital stay, psych ward, forced meds, lack of privacy, not being home, no friends, isolation, lack of freedom. 

Hell, scare the **** out of him. Maybe a good shock will do him some good. 

I'm usually on the side of the sufferer but what he is doing is destructive to himself and the rest of the family. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

[Angst]

How is your son at school? Has the school mentioned problems or has there been threats of exclusion?

[paulfoel]

12 hours ago, PolarBear said:

I seriously have to wonder if there's more than OCD going on with your son. I haven't heard of many sufferers who show this level of outrage and defiance.

Warn him. Put your cards on the table. Tell him you've had enough and if he doesn't change his ways and come clean about what's really bothering You, you will have no choice but get social services involved. And tell him what that means... possible long term hospital stay, psych ward, forced meds, lack of privacy, not being home, no friends, isolation, lack of freedom. 

Hell, scare the **** out of him. Maybe a good shock will do him some good. 

I'm usually on the side of the sufferer but what he is doing is destructive to himself and the rest of the family. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Thanks PB. We've tried and tried. Just wish he'd spend 1/10th of his energy on trying to help himself/take on advice than he does with arguing. At the moment, he seems obsessed that hes got to be right, its everyone elses fault, no-one else matters, and hes been wronged by everyone else. To be honest a lot of arguments are due to his use of hand gel. In conjunction with therapist we're trying to cut down his usage (he uses 100ml a day - which is a lot) but he seems to lie, steal (we've haf to put locks on cupboards) to get it - its like a drug addict in a way.

He seems to care nothing at all for anyone else and does use his OCD as an excuse for his behaviour. I know hes having problems but he just does not seem to care what hes doing. He now refuses to tidy up, leaves the house in the mess etc. Not sure I mentioned before his mum has fibromyalgia so sometimes its tough for her. This is having a very bad effect.

We're trying to help him but its got to stop. We've tried to have adult conversations and tell him its unacceptable, its even got so far as you've said, with mention of police, social services etc. He does not give a monkeys. All he says is I hate you and thinks its another threat to get at him. He really is breaking the family apart at the moment.

I dont want to give up on him but hes really having a negative affect on the rest of the family at the moment.

I just fear that hes going to push things further and further and end up hurting his little sister or his mother. He tries it with me but I've learnt to let it go now - even though sometimes I think a good hiding would do him good I know its not going to help. One thing - I know his mother will give him one back if he ever tries up but of course I dont want it to go this far.

[paulfoel]

4 hours ago, Angst said:

How is your son at school? Has the school mentioned problems or has there been threats of exclusion?

Funnily enough there are no problems at school. We've had to let the school know. 

Hes off on school trip to iceland next weekend. Can guarantee hes not thought how hes going to cope - on bus, plane, in shared hotel room. This weekend he refused to leave the house for an hour because he didnt want to use a public toilet! Not sure if I mentioned, on recent family holiday he blocked toilet on plane due to misuse (i.e what he does), then denied it and threw something in my face (this was on the plane!).

We considered cancelling (we've already paid for it but thats not important) but, in a way, we thought it might do him good to be on his own a little and deal with things a bit (and grow up a little). Also, keen to see if he plays his teachers up in the same way he does with us - if he can manage to deal with his issues a little better because he wont shout at his teachers then it proves he can do it if he tries.

It might all kick off of course, but, since, so far, the school have offered no help at all (they think hes the perfect child) then we're hoping involvement from the school also may get something moving quicker in terms of help for him. We've given them the full story but I don't think they quite believe us.

Finally, the rest of us really do need some time away from him. Every day for, I'd say, the last week, at least once a day hes lost his temper and screamed and shouted about something. Its making everyone else ill. Unfair on the teachers on this trip but hes someone else's problem for a few days.

[Ashley]

19 hours ago, PolarBear said:

Warn him. Put your cards on the table. Tell him you've had enough and if he doesn't change his ways and come clean about what's really bothering You, you will have no choice but get social services involved. And tell him what that means... possible long term hospital stay, psych ward, forced meds, lack of privacy, not being home, no friends, isolation, lack of freedom. 

Hell, scare the **** out of him. Maybe a good shock will do him some good. 

I am not sure about this last part, we don't scare people just for suffering extreme OCD.   I do think boundaries need to be created, but we have to remember that this bad behaviour could just be extreme OCD, we have seen this many times before.    It's also not unusual for the problems only to be seen at home, that is the same with adults who will often not show OCD problems at work, but just at home around loved ones.

[snowbear]

I second Ashley on this.

You can't scare someone into changing how they think, you have to teach them to think differently. The more scared somebody is feeling the harder it is to learn anything new, including alternative ways to think. 

I also agree that it's common for school/work to see a completely different set of behaviours to what family get at home. Take this as a compliment - even if it feels like a backhanded one! Functioning with OCD in tow takes a huge amount of effort and it's impossible to keep up the facade of normality 24 hours a day. It has to come out somewhere and for most people they let it show where they feel safest. 

Anti-contamination rituals (such as using hand gel) are location and situation specific. There's also an element of learned behaviour involved, as in home has been the place where you've used most hand gel previously, so home is where you use hand gel the most while other 'equally contaminated' places don't feel like they need the same degree of control. You can often pass through external places like school and get away with leaving them uncleaned (unsafe), whereas home has to be kept feeling completely safe. The more unsafe you feel in yourself emotionally the more perfectly home has to be sterilized, controlled and contained physically. So trying to threaten someone into changing their behaviour is counterproductive. 

I think he'll be ok on the school trip. It will be good for him. I think it will give family a much-needed break. And it could be just what he needs too -  a break from his rituals and thinking habits.

He could surprise you how well he copes. If he does it will probably sicken you as much as it pleases you for it will make the situation at home feel even more like a very personal kick-in-the-teeth. But it's not personal. 

If he can't cope and it all comes to the fore on the trip then the severity of his OCD will become apparent to him as well as to them. Plus you'll have the backing of the school in getting him to CBT and pushing him to engage with it. 

[BelAnna]

23 hours ago, PolarBear said:

I seriously have to wonder if there's more than OCD going on with your son. I haven't heard of many sufferers who show this level of outrage and defiance.

Warn him. Put your cards on the table. Tell him you've had enough and if he doesn't change his ways and come clean about what's really bothering You, you will have no choice but get social services involved. And tell him what that means... possible long term hospital stay, psych ward, forced meds, lack of privacy, not being home, no friends, isolation, lack of freedom. 

Hell, scare the **** out of him. Maybe a good shock will do him some good. 

I'm usually on the side of the sufferer but what he is doing is destructive to himself and the rest of the family. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Rage is quite a common consequence of OCD, particularly in younger people and especially teenagers who are already struggling with the ups and downs that their hormones cause. 

On 15/10/2017 at 23:06, paulfoel said:

Getting worse. Has now taken to blaming everyone else. I understand this and we've tried and tried. He goes to see counsellor but next day hes back to normal. He just cannot be bothered.

Hes aggressive, violent. He punches things, he throws things. Its getting beyond. He will stand in the middle of the room and scream at the top of his voice. You try to calm him and ask him to go to another room to calm down but he refuses and stands there and says what are you going to do about it.

A lot of the time this is in front of his 4 year old sister who he also treats badly. I'm afraid its going to come to a head and we're going to have to take drastic steps. Hes going to do something stupid like hurt his sister or punch someone.

What we can do? Tempted to call social services and get them to take him away temporarily. Don;t want to do that and appreciate the problems he has but I'm not so sure hes safe to be in the house at the moment.

This sounds like such a difficult situation. Remember that his anger is coming from fear and it is quite a natural response to feeling under threat (in this case from the perceived contaminants and the consequences of becoming "contaminated"). 

Is he currently on the waiting list for CBT/CAMHS treatment? 

[paulfoel]

13 hours ago, Ashley said:

I am not sure about this last part, we don't scare people just for suffering extreme OCD.   I do think boundaries need to be created, but we have to remember that this bad behaviour could just be extreme OCD, we have seen this many times before.    It's also not unusual for the problems only to be seen at home, that is the same with adults who will often not show OCD problems at work, but just at home around loved ones.

Hi Ashley - hear what you're saying and I know its not his fault. Trouble is we have to do something otherwise its going to get worse. We can no longer function as a family at the moment unless something changes.

[paulfoel]

12 hours ago, snowbear said:

I second Ashley on this.

You can't scare someone into changing how they think, you have to teach them to think differently. The more scared somebody is feeling the harder it is to learn anything new, including alternative ways to think. 

I also agree that it's common for school/work to see a completely different set of behaviours to what family get at home. Take this as a compliment - even if it feels like a backhanded one! Functioning with OCD in tow takes a huge amount of effort and it's impossible to keep up the facade of normality 24 hours a day. It has to come out somewhere and for most people they let it show where they feel safest. 

Anti-contamination rituals (such as using hand gel) are location and situation specific. There's also an element of learned behaviour involved, as in home has been the place where you've used most hand gel previously, so home is where you use hand gel the most while other 'equally contaminated' places don't feel like they need the same degree of control. You can often pass through external places like school and get away with leaving them uncleaned (unsafe), whereas home has to be kept feeling completely safe. The more unsafe you feel in yourself emotionally the more perfectly home has to be sterilized, controlled and contained physically. So trying to threaten someone into changing their behaviour is counterproductive. 

I think he'll be ok on the school trip. It will be good for him. I think it will give family a much-needed break. And it could be just what he needs too -  a break from his rituals and thinking habits.

He could surprise you how well he copes. If he does it will probably sicken you as much as it pleases you for it will make the situation at home feel even more like a very personal kick-in-the-teeth. But it's not personal. 

If he can't cope and it all comes to the fore on the trip then the severity of his OCD will become apparent to him as well as to them. Plus you'll have the backing of the school in getting him to CBT and pushing him to engage with it. 

PB - yes thats our thinking too with the school trip.

At school hes admitted he just does not drink so he doesnt use the toilet. Not healthy of course.

But it is going to be tough to get our head around if he can cope with unknown places but not at home....

[paulfoel]

9 hours ago, BelAnna said:

Rage is quite a common consequence of OCD, particularly in younger people and especially teenagers who are already struggling with the ups and downs that their hormones cause. 

This sounds like such a difficult situation. Remember that his anger is coming from fear and it is quite a natural response to feeling under threat (in this case from the perceived contaminants and the consequences of becoming "contaminated"). 

Is he currently on the waiting list for CBT/CAMHS treatment? 

Yes I'm sure it is - a lot of the rage is due to his worry about things - I know that. In an ideal world, we'd be able to put up with it. But its affecting everyone else now - his mother, me, his little sister. We've tried to get him to go to another room when he feels the rage coming on and promised we'll speak to him in an hour or so when hes calmed down. (Any sooner we've found he just stays calm for 5 mins and is then off again).

Its like saying if the whole family stand in the middle lane of the M4 for 5 minutes he'll be completely cured. Great idea but its going to have serious consequences on the family and isn't a good idea!

He has a CAMHS appt next week when he comes home from his trip. Its with a nurse to start with so I'm a little concerned that there's going to be a further delay.

He did have an appt with an NHS mental health primary care counsellor last week - seemed to go well at first. Some good ideas. She did a "contract/agreement" of sorts to try and get things sorted which seemed a good idea- lasted about a day that did! Also feedback from his counsellor we pay for indicates he is just not willing to listen and try things - I just fear further offers of counselling are going to be pointless.

He kicked off AGAIN last night. Very aggressive, threatening, and confrontational. At the moment, we've got to keep his little sister away from him because hes just so unpredictable. Like I said before, its pointless explaining that he just can;t do these things but he ignores.

Not ideal because it seems to be punishing him for his illness but we found that one thing that makes him think is access to his hand gel. We've had to tell him now - no hand gel if he continues like he is. 

Yes I know - its probably not right but I hope you can all appreciate we have to do SOMETHING and quickly. Like I said, we're one step away at the moment, from having to call the police and/or social services for the safety of everyone else. And thats going to make things a whole lot worse I think..

[BelAnna]

Hi Paulfoel,

I hope that CAMHS can help this week- if possible ask for CBT rather than counselling and do let them know how bad things are.

Could you maybe keep a record/log of his outbursts and possible triggering events for CAMHS to see?

Asking your son to take time out in his room sounds like a good idea but could you maybe plan a displacement activity that he can do when he's in an OCD-rage? Could he go for a walk, a run, listen to music or play a computer game or chat with a friend online? 

Remind your son and the rest of the family that things can get better. If possible also try to let your son know that you are on his side, not against him but that his behaviours can be unacceptable because they hurt all of you.

There is at least one specialist OCD in-patient centre in the UK that treats teenagers, which he could be referred to if necessary but he would need to have some CBT locally first. 

Sorry things are so hard.

[paulfoel]

20 hours ago, BelAnna said:

Hi Paulfoel,

I hope that CAMHS can help this week- if possible ask for CBT rather than counselling and do let them know how bad things are.

Could you maybe keep a record/log of his outbursts and possible triggering events for CAMHS to see?

Asking your son to take time out in his room sounds like a good idea but could you maybe plan a displacement activity that he can do when he's in an OCD-rage? Could he go for a walk, a run, listen to music or play a computer game or chat with a friend online? 

Remind your son and the rest of the family that things can get better. If possible also try to let your son know that you are on his side, not against him but that his behaviours can be unacceptable because they hurt all of you.

There is at least one specialist OCD in-patient centre in the UK that treats teenagers, which he could be referred to if necessary but he would need to have some CBT locally first. 

Sorry things are so hard.

Thanks Bel. Yes I understand CBT is the choice for this. However, Im a little dubious - hes at the stage where hes not willing to listen/try anything etc. I just wonder if he will engage at all. I know its tough for him but he really is in denial - he seems to be saying that this is the way it is and nothing can be done.

Trouble is, he sees it as being "sent to his room" rather than the more sensible "go and chill out a little and we'll talk later". We're trying to get that working at the moment and explain that standing there being threatening is not acceptable.

We tell him that we love him, we're trying to help and understand, and that we will get it sorted.

 

[Rucker]

There may or may or may not be a secondary condition, but I recall someone who was on a 3 year training course with me was diagnosed with autism while on it as he was kicking of big time.... most of the time he just displayed some unusual behavior but there were some big incidents that led to the employer getting him diagnosed through occupational health.  His parents were both  teachers and he was not diagnosed at school or by them.... he probably just appeared shy/studious  or socially anxious, I'm not too sure etc  so I wouldn't take the no incidents at school as evidence that it's OK.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong like that though.

The only issue you may want to consider in the current climate regarding the school trip is the plane journey.  Any outburst on a plane could be problematic... diverted etc... and they always cause hassle and make the news/police...... I think a concern would be is he showed unusual behavior in the toilet.... they are super suspicious these days. 

What might help is time away, I love the outdoors and camping and it is surprising powerful to do it and get some hiking in... wonderful for mental health.  I think I saw a news report a few months ago that doctors may start prescribing time outdoors.  Alternatively some outlet to burn off energy.... punch bag, boxing lessons etc.  I got into running and that helped a lot when I was  down but it's not everyones cup of tea.

 

Best wishes

[paulfoel]

1 hour ago, Rucker said:

There may or may or may not be a secondary condition, but I recall someone who was on a 3 year training course with me was diagnosed with autism while on it as he was kicking of big time.... most of the time he just displayed some unusual behavior but there were some big incidents that led to the employer getting him diagnosed through occupational health.  His parents were both  teachers and he was not diagnosed at school or by them.... he probably just appeared shy/studious  or socially anxious, I'm not too sure etc  so I wouldn't take the no incidents at school as evidence that it's OK.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong like that though.

The only issue you may want to consider in the current climate regarding the school trip is the plane journey.  Any outburst on a plane could be problematic... diverted etc... and they always cause hassle and make the news/police...... I think a concern would be is he showed unusual behavior in the toilet.... they are super suspicious these days. 

What might help is time away, I love the outdoors and camping and it is surprising powerful to do it and get some hiking in... wonderful for mental health.  I think I saw a news report a few months ago that doctors may start prescribing time outdoors.  Alternatively some outlet to burn off energy.... punch bag, boxing lessons etc.  I got into running and that helped a lot when I was  down but it's not everyones cup of tea.

 

Best wishes

Yeh I know what you mean. Hes unlikely to kick off on the plane I hope. 

However, he did completely block the toilet on plane recently. He has his things and he does it whatever the consequences. i.e. stuffs loads of toilet paper down. When I confronted him he did kick off.

[Ashley]

1 hour ago, paulfoel said:

He has his things and he does it whatever the consequences. i.e. stuffs loads of toilet paper down. When I confronted him he did kick off.

Can I ask how you confronting him about this Paul?  

If it was literally confronting him, then a combination of frustration from the OCD, embarrassment and if he felt he was being confronted, then that would explain the kicking off.   Sometimes where incidents occur it is better to let it slide for a few days until everyone is calmer, and then in a more gentle approach ask about it.  Sometimes it's also worth involving someone else to host the conversation if a different approach and voice is needed. 

[paulfoel]

14 hours ago, Ashley said:

Can I ask how you confronting him about this Paul?  

If it was literally confronting him, then a combination of frustration from the OCD, embarrassment and if he felt he was being confronted, then that would explain the kicking off.   Sometimes where incidents occur it is better to let it slide for a few days until everyone is calmer, and then in a more gentle approach ask about it.  Sometimes it's also worth involving someone else to host the conversation if a different approach and voice is needed. 

Know what you mean Ashley but this was something that he'd done a few times (At home and whilst on holidays - block the toilet). We'd sat him down before and had a chat about not blocking the toilet on the plane because there could be consequences if it was seen as misuse.

I know sometimes it does make things worse by confronting the person but sometimes he does things which really are difficult to have patience with. It could have been very awkward if a member of the crew had realised it was him who'd blocked the toilet due to misuse. After all, last thing I guess airlines want on transatlantic flights is for toilets to be out of action.

[dandelionclock]

Hi there

I'm sorry things are so hard for you at the moment. This sounds like a similar situation to what we are going through. I would say it is typical of the OCD to cause rage, as well as blaming someone else. It's the level of distress felt I think, trying to externalise the threat they live under. My son is sixteen and blames the house ('contaminated') and blames me for not moving house. Smallest thing (in my mind, obvs not in his)  that goes 'wrong', he cries, shouts, blames me  and last night threw the remote down and broke it. I also can't go on like this, I know how hard it is on the whole family. 

Sending support. 

 

 

[paulfoel]

Had CAMHS appt yesterday. At least they seemed to go into things in detail - over 90 minutes in the end. Both of us - wife and I went with him. Trouble is they now pass it on to someone else. It all takes time.

Still concerned that hes not even seen a psych yet (he saw psych nurses) and no-one has even talked medication.....