Core beliefs, OCD and self-esteem

[gingerbreadgirl]

So one thing that has become very clear to me is that my OCD and low self-esteem are very much entwined and I need to deal with both of them, and pronto.  I've been thinking about unhelpful core beliefs I have around this.  I have a few.  But the main one I think is something like: "If I have done something bad in the past, then it makes me an irredeemibly bad person."

Although I don't believe this rationally, deep down it is an unshakeable truth.  And I think this is the centre of almost all of my OCD themes.  I don't even really know why this scares me so much, this idea of being a bad person.  I'm not religious so it's not like I'm afraid of being punished.  I just have this intolerable fear of being morally bad. 

I've asked people about this and they mostly say they never worry about being a bad person.  My OH says she sometimes worries whether a particular action of hers was wrong, and feels guilty.  But she never questions her inherent "OK-ness" as a person, it's just never crossed her mind to do so.  I can see how it is much healthier to look at life this way.  To view behaviour on a case-by-case basis, rather than as representative of your entire being.

So this is my first priority: to challenge this core belief of mine.  I'm going to try and do this using exposure and standard CBT methods.  I already get how the OCD side of all this works, but I think there is more to it than just OCD.

 

 

[Guest]

Hi, I'm very much like you and I found a lot of help working through the 'overcoming low self esteem self help course in three parts' book from the 'overcoming books' CBT series. It has some really eye opening (for me anyway) and easy excercises to work out your core beliefs or 'bottom line' ie "I am bad" "I am unloveable" etc. 

[taurean]

I think you mentioned a previous bad experience with CBT, Gingerbreadgirl. 

But many of us have had those - my first involved an illustrious psychiatrist/cognitive behavioural therapist insisting that making me expose as often as possible for two weeks to violent things ( the technique known as flooding) would sort out my harm OCD. 

What piffle - I sent him packing. 

It's a great therapy - it really is. And Wren's experience of it for low self-esteem mirrors my wife's - brilliant. 

You are right there is more than OCD in play - there is OCD and low self-esteem, and self-loathing. 

Find self-love without allowing neutralising and that will strengthen a true core value, so that when OCD says otherwise, you need not respond. 

I now use love kindness meditation together with mindfulness to ease myself out of any repetitive OCD thinking, and that is going well. 

 

Edited January 26, 2018 by taurean
corrections

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thanks both.  Yes I didn't have a very good experience with CBT on IAPT but I am going to try and do the work myself.  x

[taurean]

You can do this GBG - you will make a good (self-) therapist

Roy  

 

[gingerbreadgirl]

I hope so!

[Orwell1984]

Hi GBG- your post exactly reflects where I'm at psychologically. If I get any tips or techniques from my new therapist - I will let you know 

[PolarBear]

It's known as a cognitive distortion. In this case, all or nothing thinking. You can look it up on Google.  There's ways to reverse that type of thinking.

[Wonderer]

That is my core belief also, being a “bad person” is a massive fear of mine and the guilt it causes and the memories it brings up are shocking and crippling! When I’m well I recognise that I’ve made some mistakes but I’m sorry for them, learned from them and don’t deserve to punish myself forever, when I’m ill, it’s the most horrendous crippling feeling that makes me want to compulsively confess and seek reassurance! I also don’t really understand why, I’m not religious either, I have no consequences to worry about apart from maybe other people’s opinions of me, which has actually never changed no matter what I’ve confessed to! Guess we just have to realise it is the illness and treat it as such! Good luck xx

[taurean]

22 minutes ago, Wonderer said:

Guess we just have to realise it is the illness and treat it as such! Good luck xx

Actually it really is as simple as that. 

All the obsessing and compulsing is a waste of a significant part of daily life. And achieves zilch, absolutely nothing. 

Once we realise the pointlessness of toing that OCD line, it is much easier to stand up to it

 

[gingerbreadgirl]

Hi all,

I am still really struggling.  I know there is more to this than OCD, that there is a problem with my self-worth - but I feel so hamstrung in trying to address it.

I honestly feel like all of a sudden I have insight into what a flawed and selfish person I am, and that I have been hiding from it all my life. And i can change my behaviour, obviously, but it doesn't change who i am deep down or the person i am if i let my guard down.  I can suddenly see how self-centred I can be, and entitled, and not just in isolated incidents but a lot of the time, especially when I was younger but still now.  And I don't know how to deal with that through CBT or addressing core beliefs - because sometimes, beliefs are just the truth.  And I know even as I'm saying this it will sound like I am exaggerating, but I don't think I am. 

Right now I honestly feel like this relapse is not really a relapse at all but almost like an epiphany.  I've read recently about people who have an entitlement complex and I worry that's me, that I expect the world to revolve around me, etc.  And I'm sure I've caused pain to people because of it. And this truth is really painful for me to bear and honestly I don't know how to move forwards from it.  Cutting rumination and so on makes me feel better but it doesn't change this underlying feeling I have, or this awful feeling that I will never be able to make amends for all the things I've done, stuff that I even can't remember right now or haven't yet acknowledged.  I worry about what else I will come to realise in the years ahead, that I was hiding from before. I worry that if I let my guard down, or relax, I will revert to type and I will have to be vigilant of that forever.

Sorry this is a huge ramble and I'm sure some of it will sound ridiculous, but it is how I feel and I want to be honest.

How do you move forwards when you don't think you should? x

Edited January 30, 2018 by gingerbreadgirl

[PolarBear]

Move forward anyway. Forgive yourself and move on. You can choose not to let your past dictate your future. You can live for today and tomorrow and let yesterday stay in the past. It's a choice.

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thanks Polar.  Although I'm not sure I can (or that it's healthy) to just not address my feelings around this, and just think "I'm moving on".  I need to find a healthier way to relate to my past and my self worth in general.  Otherwise it will always be something I am pushing away, it will always be an issue lurking in the background. 

Before this blip I had done a lot of cognitive work on this and was actually at quite a good place with it. 

Right now I feel like I have totally lost any kind of perspective on this stuff.  All I have is this awful gut feeling.  I look back on my past and feel guilt over everything, even stuff I know I rationally shouldn't do.  I think I need to really address this but don't know where or how to start because like I say I am held back by feeling like I deserve all this.

Not sure if any of this makes sense or i'm just contradicting myself! x

[Cub]

Like you, Ginger, my OCD and self-esteem are very much entwined. I understand how it feels. But you're doing really well; you're addressing the problem and understanding that you deserve a little more self-love - that you can like yourself more. That's honestly terrific because you do deserve it. 

Part of OCD - particularly religious OCD for me - is accepting that we're not perfect and we don't have to be. There's no pressure to be a saint and so we all make mistakes. You need to remind yourself of this. OCD guilt over the past is something I'm still dealing with - that I'm beyond forgiveness and God no longer loves me - and I know it's horrible because the more time that goes by, the worse it seems to get. You're scared of it because you want to be good - and you are good.  

All the luck to you in this endeavour. You can do it!

[taurean]

 

Wretched gut feelings, can't just dismiss, feel I need to be punished, they are all coming from those issues of OCD and lack of self worth and self love. 

When we are "anchored"  in thinking about the person we were in the past, it's pointless (only the OCD illness says it isn't). 

We have to anchor ourselves in the present, where we can find love happiness joy fulfillment - and it doesn't matter otherwise. 

At college I was a worshipper at a church that did tremendous things with young people from delinquent and troubled backgrounds. 

They learned a new way of life, a new set of values - and they learned to live in the moment, never look back - what they were and how they lived forgotten. 

Those youngsters were right up there amongst the happiest and most forward-looking people in that congregation - they didn't spare one thought for their previous troubled past. 

Is that a good yardstick to measure by?  Yes, I would certainly think so. And we don't need to be religious to change our behavioural response as they did. 

Edited January 30, 2018 by taurean
typo

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thanks everyone for the help.

While I understand the principle of leaving things in the past, I'm not sure it's what I should be really trying to do here.  I don't think I can move on or really get better from OCD without addressing this issue, it isn't enough for me to say "live for now".  I need to address some of the beliefs I have around my past and my "goodness" as a person; I need to process it in some way.

I feel I need to do some cognitive work around this, but not totally sure what it should be.   I feel guilt about a lot of things and some of them I know rationally I shouldn't feel guilty about.  For example, at primary school I was bullied and I feel guilty about that, I feel on some level I deserved it.  Clearly this is rubbish - no 10-year-old kid deserves to be bullied - but this is an ingrained feeling I have.  I have no perspective over any of it. 

So I need to address my core beliefs around this, while also acknowledging the things which are true, and also there is OCD thrown into the mix as well which is complicating things.

Basically I don't know what to do but I know I need to do something.

[JennieWren]

2 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

Basically I don't know what to do but I know I need to do something.

 

1 hour ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

honestly feel like all of a sudden I have insight into what a flawed and selfish person I am, and that I have been hiding from it all my life. And i can change my behaviour, obviously, but it doesn't change who i am deep down or the person i am if i let my guard down.  I can suddenly see how self-centred I can be, and entitled, and not just in isolated incidents but a lot of the time, especially when I was younger but still now. 

Who isn't self centred? Who doesn't feel entitled? Who doesn't ever cause pain to others? Who isn't selfish? It's good to own our negative personality traits, but not to exaggerate them or feel endlessly guilty.

I think understanding this and how you view yourself is work that needs to be done in therapy. 

I too have this idea that I can't let my guard down or people will see the real terrible me. And then they will not want me around. But this is an IDEA. A belief. No one has a set personality of bad or good. So the question is why you think these things and what healing/cognitive/OCD work needs to be done still to change this.

[taurean]

17 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

Basically I don't know what to do but I know I need to do something.

You need to pay no attention - those feelings are just intrusive thoughts stemming from that OCD core belief. 

And OCD core beliefs are lies and exaggerations, blowers up of small issues out of proportion and value. 

What you are experiencing on this theme is classic OCD at work. 

You feel you cannot leave it, it must be addressed. But it mustn't and needn't. 

You feel the urge to carry out compulsions - of course you do. 

But don't, refocus away - weaken it by not giving it belief or attention. 

Only by consistently doing that (outside of ERP)  can we overcome it. 

Edited January 30, 2018 by taurean
typo

[JennieWren]

10 minutes ago, taurean said:

You feel you cannot leave it, it must be addressed. But it mustn't and needn't.

I think I disagree. I don't think endlessly ruminating over it and trying to work it out without help is a good idea. But I do think there's some issues from your past here keeping you stuck. I just found a page in 'break free from OCD' that basically says these are worth working through in therapy as a way of gaining insight. Page 237 if you have it. Last paragraph. I think from reading other posts this should be done with an OCD specialist.

[taurean]

Unfortunately my copy of Break Free is now residing in a box awaiting our home move this week, so I can't look that reference up.

But carrying out compulsions, giving belief to an intrusion makes the OCD stronger. 

Though yes, we do need to understand why we think and feel this way - see the OCD for what the distortions are. 

I kind of think we have been throwing in our ideas on this on the forum .

Do we need an OCD expert to do it?  Mmhhh I have been fortunate to have private therapy with such worthies, but did they truly get to the bottom of what I really needed?  No - that breakthrough came from my forum friends. 

So maybe the expert might help, perhaps they might not. 

So here is a pretty good place to chew things over I reckon. 

Edited January 30, 2018 by taurean
addition

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thank you very much both for your input.  A lot of food for thought here.  x

[taurean]

I have just been gently dozing, listening to jazz with the light off - and into my mind popped an interesting point. 

Following on from talking about my erstwhile delinquent friends from church when at college,I found myself thinking of that powerful request of us to Jesus in The Lord's Prayer, " forgive us our trespasses " (sins, wrongdoing). 

We recognise we have sinned, and seek absolution. Then we follow the doctrines of the Christian faith to live righteously. 

As happened with those young friends of mine, they sought absolution, were given it, then began to live righteously 

Once absolved, they felt no more guilt - they shed it, left it behind and opened up to a new life. 

The Christian faith handles this well - but we don't have to be religious to think absolution and change our views. 

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by taurean

[Franklin12]

Do you think you are mostly preoccupied with how others might judge you (in terms of goodness or badness), or is it that you are struggling with how you judge yourself? Do you care what others think? Do you think that people are binary ‘good’ or ‘bad’? I personally think there are spectrums of intrinsic goodness and badness in people. I have friends (who are in the minority), who are soooooo lovely and nice. They would do anything for anyone. They rarely have a bad word to say about anyone, and the niceness is completely genuine. They are truly nice people. Then I know people who couldn’t give two monkeys about anyone but themselves. They would steal from their dying grandmothers, etc. Then there’s me - I would say I was slightly off centre, but not on the nice side. I can be very selfish. I can push people away if I feel like they deserve it. I don’t forgive easily. I’m literally always late for everything. But I can be soft, I am very empathic and I don’t like to see people suffering. I would do anything for my kids, and I’m incredibly loyal to my family. Am I good or bad? Who knows, but I don’t care at all. So I guess on the one hand you have to have a think about what it means to you to be good or bad, whilst at the same time recognising that this is probably something that you have latched on to more than many people would because you are prone to obsessive thinking, and also maybe very sensitive to guilt? 

 

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thanks Roy, and while I do see what you're saying, I'm not sure how much I go along with the idea that self-forgiveness is the way forwards.  Self-forgiveness implies wrongdoing and I think (one of) my issues is that I am over-emphasising my own wrong-doing in the past (this is something I am reluctant to commit to but rationally I know is true.) I think change needs to come from addressing some of my cognitive distortions around morality, responsibility and so on.  There is also my self-worth.  I think it is somewhat over-simplifying things to say to myself "all is forgiven" because the underlying cognitive distortions are still there.  I am also not keen on the Christian idea that we are all sinners and require forgiveness from God.  But that is a totally separate discussion for a totally separate forum!

Thanks again x

[gingerbreadgirl]

Hi Franklin.  Thanks for this

1 minute ago, Franklin12 said:

Do you think you are mostly preoccupied with how others might judge you (in terms of goodness or badness), or is it that you are struggling with how you judge yourself?

Mostly I am preoccupied with how moral I am regardless of what other people think. If I do something bad I find it very difficult to live with even if nobody else ever knows about it (in fact especially if that is the case).  I know the people close to me would argue I am a good person but I feel deep down like they are missing the facts.  So no, it's not others judging me that bothers me, it's just this idea of being intrinsically immoral.

5 minutes ago, Franklin12 said:

 Do you think that people are binary ‘good’ or ‘bad’?

No I don't believe this and actually I would go further and say I don't honestly believe anybody is "bad".  I think some people are broken, yes. But I think good and bad are human constructs and even really lovely and kind people are that way for a multitude of reasons - genes, upbringing, personality, culture, etc.  I think people behave the way they behave for lots of reasons, and for that reason I am capable of feeling compassion for many different people, even those who have done really awful things.

The above is what I believe rationally but as you can see I find it almost impossible to apply this to myself.  I have a deep down belief that I am bad in some way. Sometimes I can see this as irrational or exaggerated; other times not.

11 minutes ago, Franklin12 said:

So I guess on the one hand you have to have a think about what it means to you to be good or bad, whilst at the same time recognising that this is probably something that you have latched on to more than many people would because you are prone to obsessive thinking, and also maybe very sensitive to guilt?

I do see that I have latched onto this way more than others.  I have also noticed that most people have an inherent bias towards seeing their own behaviour as justified (a self-serving bias I think it's called?) which protects people somewhat from feeling too badly about themselves.  I see this as having the right to "be your own defence lawyer" - I don't have this.  I am my own judge, jury and prosecution, always.  I always leap to the worst possible conclusions about myself and dismiss anything good or kind that I do.  This is what I seriouslt need to work on I think.