Do some people never recover?

[Ryukil]

Hmm, maybe I'll never recover because I'm not willing to go as far as my therapist is asking...

But according to him, OCD is chronic anyway. So who cares?

[gingerbreadgirl]

1 minute ago, Isthisreality said:

I hope you didn't see what i said as an insult. I am not doubting that you are working hard. But i have to admit i am also getting this tricky feeling you sometimes can get when you are dancing with OCD. 

But it is really important you actually not are beating yourself up because of this, because that is just OCD. 

Thanks isthisreality. No I don't see it as an insult, and I'm sorry if I was short with you, feeling a bit tetchy at the moment.  I do see exactly what you're saying

Edited March 14, 2018 by gingerbreadgirl

[snowbear]

34 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

and then a bit further into the village with all the mean villagers gathered round with pitch forks

  Brilliant analogy. Love it. 

[Isthisreality]

8 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

Thanks isthisreality. No I don't see it as an insult, and I'm sorry if I was short with you, feeling a bit tetchy at the moment.  I do see exactly what you're saying

Yes and it is because of this i think it might be OCD. Because of the feelings you are getting when you are thinking about this, that is the reason i think this is a simple OCD-theme. 

 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Isthisreality

[Isthisreality]

8 minutes ago, Ryukil said:

Hmm, maybe I'll never recover because I'm not willing to go as far as my therapist is asking...

But according to him, OCD is chronic anyway. So who cares?

Well, it is really strange if OCD is chronic because people are ACTUALLY recovering.

IF that really is what he told you could you please ask him how he explains that?

Edited March 14, 2018 by Isthisreality

[Ryukil]

Well, I might be being disingenuous by saying that without further explanation.

He says that OCD can go into remission. It's chronic like asthma or diabetes, but you can make it go away for long periods of time with ERP. However, there's always the risk of it coming back so you need to be prepared.

I actually agree with this. I mean, just from my own experience OCD comes and goes, increases and decreases in intensity. But that could be because I never really buckled down to treat it intensely.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Ryukil

[Isthisreality]

8 minutes ago, Ryukil said:

Well, I might be being disingenuous by saying that without further explanation.

He says that OCD can go into remission. It's chronic like asthma or diabetes, but you can make it go away for long periods of time with ERP. However, there's always the risk of it coming back so you need to be prepared.

I actually agree with this. I mean, just from my own experience OCD comes and goes, increases and decreases in intensity. But that could be because I never really buckled down to treat it intensely.

I can understand that you feel despair and it sucks with anxiety but you are ONLY losing by beating yourself up. And it could actually send the wrong signals to other. You are beating yourself up so much. Please stop with that. You are only bullying yourself.

I do think someone with OCD who have recovered could work themselves up to compulsions again. Because of the fawlty brainfilter. 

It is strange that you agree with it because it doesn't even apply to us. We are not recovered.

 

 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Isthisreality

[Ryukil]

Yeah, sorry. I mean, I know there are people who have basically permanently recovered. Others have been through therapy and basically recovered, only to relapse later. But if they relapse and have all the tools they need to challenge their OCD, then the relapse isn't that big of a deal and can be dealt with quickly. 

Not trying to make anyone lose hope. You can absolutely get to a point where OCD is not bothering you anymore. Doesn't OCD have one of the best prognoses of any mental issues, or something like that? ERP and CBT really work!

 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Ryukil

[Isthisreality]

 OCD is pretty straightforward. It doesn't make it less painful however. But as i see it, nobody ever would have OCD if it wasn't painful. 2% of the world wouldn't have this diagnosis if it wasn't painful. If OCD never came with feelings which feels bad wouldn't we end up where we are. The brain is after effectivity after all. The last thing the body wants to do is to waste energy. "The sad truth" is that the brain is prioritizing survival over comfort. This part of the brain sees the thoughts as a danger and it wants us to look if there are a real danger. Because danger is a treat to our survival

 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Isthisreality

[Ashley]

3 hours ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

In some ways I almost wish someone could just say to me: "yes, you will never fully beat this, you will go from episode to episode and that will suck, but there will be good times in between and there are worse things that could happen in life".  I could adjust my expectations and know that the next time will hit and I could adapt to that.  But I know people do recover and I have worked for that, I really have, and I guess it just bums me out a bit. 

 

I think this is a key paragraph GBG, and I think a lot of people will rush to tell you that is more likely to be the case (I have not read the rest of the thread for this very reason), and I can't tell you that they are wrong.  

But you have seen our far I have come, and I can tell you my own personal belief on this subject (if it's helpful great, if not then sorry)  is that's a really, really, really bad idea to adjust expectations to accept OCD will be in your life occasionally. The moment we do that, in our mind we have switched off just 1% (maybe more) in the fight.

That said, I think the reality is yes, some people may not recover from OCD, for a million reasons, even those that work hard at overcoming OCD may not recover, again for a million reasons (bad therapy, bad technique, life stresses) and yes there may be relapses.  But, I think it is also fair to say that a lot of people use that fact as a reason not to push themselves and to simply accept relapses without challenging why they happen.

Of an equal fact is that many people do get better as you mentioned GBG, some do recover, do move on from life without OCD in it.... and like I frequently say,  whilst we can't promise recovery, we can 100% promise non-recovery if a person doesn't work at recovery each and every single day.

Which is why even if I am the only person on the forum believing this, I will continue to believe that I must fight my OCD and work to eradicate it 100%.  I think that approach is why I have made such progress, if I didn't believe that then I don't think I would be here fighting still.

I hope in a few days you find peace with where you're at right now and are able to use that to move forward in life with whatever acceptance or objective you choose to adapt. Whatever you decide, we're here for you through the good and the bad, just as you have been there for many of us. 

 

 

 

[gingerbreadgirl]

This is a really good post Ashley and makes a lot of sense.  I guess my slight despondency about recovery is that even if this rough patch comes to an end (which actually I really think it could be doing, which is great), I don't have confidence in it not coming back.  All the CBT in the world couldn't have prevented what happened last year from happening, I don't think.  And that feels discouraging because it feels like I don't have any power, I've just got to wait for the waves to hit.

47 minutes ago, Ashley said:

Whatever you decide, we're here for you through the good and the bad, just as you have been there for many of us.

This is really nice and I really appreciate you saying that x

Edited March 14, 2018 by gingerbreadgirl

[taurean]

This is another interesting topic. I haven't read the entire thread, I am joining in a bit late, but I wondered this very much myself, and still do wonder it. 

My OCD has always taken the form of episodes. 

As Gingerbreadgirl has advised too, I could go long periods of being absolutely fine then, suddenly, I was not fine. A trigger had broken through my defences and I was slipping down lots of snakes - trying to catch hold of a ladder to stop the fall, then climb again, but finding it impossible to do so. 

My own battle against this has been dreadful it really has. 

And I needed somehow to keep working, to support my disabled wife and put together enough pension rights for us to retire in modest at least comfort. 

I kept seeking the answer to balance out the peaks and troughs, I saw two psychiatrists and 3 clinical psychologists - all eminent in treating OCD. 

I read lots of self-help, I used two OCD workbooks. 

I do think that some of us have variants that are more difficult to resolve - and my own experience suggests that. 

After 17 years, since diagnosis, of looking for answers I am in a lot better place. 

I think the Citalopram I take helps me mainly through its antidepressant side - it helps keep my mood up. 

I keep my ERP up to date and don't slip into avoidance. 

I apply the various skills I have learned on my journey when I need them. 

I keep beneficially busy, take plenty of exercise, don't worry, and enjoy plenty of me time as well as togetherness. 

I get plenty of quality sleep,and maintain a calm philosophy of living, by utilising meditation relaxation and mindfulness. 

And I am doing much better now at dealing with repetitive obsessive thoughts when they start up. 

I think we have to adopt the attitude that we can always try other things, other therapists, listen to worthies on the forum. We should adopt that Churchillian spirit "we shall never surrender"  and never give up in the fight against OCD. 

Edited March 14, 2018 by taurean
amendment

[Ashley]

3 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

This is a really good post Ashley and makes a lot of sense.  I guess my slight despondency about recovery is that even if this rough patch comes to an end (which actually I really think it could be doing, which is great), I don't have confidence in it not coming back.  All the CBT in the world couldn't have prevented what happened last year from happening, I don't think.  And that feels discouraging because it feels like I don't have any power, I've just got to wait for the waves to hit.

This feels like a question we should ask an expert like Prof Salkovskis to discuss and answer at the conference?   Coming?

But for what it is worth, no guarantees that relapses wont happen, but what I have found with the areas of my OCD that I am working well with is that now and then OCD may make me sit up and notice, but I rarely do more than notice now.  In fact, I usually just grab the bull by the horns and ask myself 'what can I do now', the dog mess episode is a great example of that. 

Of course.. you could wait for the waves to hit, or you could grab a surf board and learn to ride those peaks, ok you may fall, you may get wet, but better than waiting for them to crash you into rocks ?

You've achieved so much GBG, right now is tough but I posted this last week that one of my Nottingham support group members made a point of reminding us all...  It's important that each day (or week) we congratulate ourselves on what we've achieved, but equally don't just accept that, challenge yourself to look at that next.  It's hard when we don't feel like it, so maybe those are the days we need to focus more on the CONGRATULATIONS part

[Wonderer]

This is something I have thought about a  lot, I thought I was cured after 7yrs free of the disorder so the shock I felt when I had my relapse 2yrs ago was immense. I’m still waxing and waning at the moment, it’s mostly anxiety rather than OCD now though. My sons therapist has said it’s a chronic condition that he can learn to manage...my own therapist said something similar, he said that I could have OCD but learn not to let it bother me, and in hindsight I think that’s what I was doing for the 7yrs I was well, I still had horrible intrusive images but because I knew what they were I batted them away and they had NO impact on my life whatsoever. This time around my relapse has made me lose confidence, I’ve realised I am probably vulnerable for a relapse in the future, I also know that stress is a trigger, seeing as I live a life that’s quite stressful, all I can do is be kind to myself when feeling burnt out and be aware of OCD sneaking back in and start to use the tools I’ve been given again. I hope it never returns, but I do feel that it requires a lot of effort on my part now, more so than before!xx

[Isthisreality]

 

I am not sure if links are allowed, rules are only talking about "articles", i think this movie explains it very well so i post it. 

He says that you always need to be aware of your mental health. I myself think that there are steps beyond recovery but that doesn't matter, because this forum is about OCD and i myself have OCD right now which i adress. I would also like to be scientific (the science behind OCD) so i won't go beyond recovery with OCD here. 

But i think this video explains it good.

My opinion is that people with OCD turns to compulsions when they face anxiety, which we seems to be more prone to get. Maybe because we have a fawlty filter. And when the compulsions starts... well... then do we end up with more compulsions...

 

 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Isthisreality

[gingerbreadgirl]

Hi everyone,

I will reply properly to all your posts later but just wanted to say thank you very much.  As always your help and support is invaluable x

[taurean]

10 hours ago, Ashley said:

All the CBT in the world couldn't have prevented what happened last year from happening, I don't think.  And that feels discouraging because it feels like I don't have any power, I've just got to wait for the waves to hit.

I just wanted to pick up on this and provide a little hope GBG. 

I was feeling like that, I really was. But I kept going, kept seeking the missing link, something that might turn what I had already learned in CBT into the gold standard I knew it truly was. 

Doing what you are doing here - opening up on what is problematic for you - is what helped. 

It seemed it needed more time and thinking than the psychologists I was seeing could maybe allocate. So I took it to the members only forum here. I felt the main forum would bring forth too many responses; I needed something very specific. 

The members had the time and interest to ask questions, consider options. 

And out of that kind consideration came the answer. 

Don't anyone give up. Often there may be something missing, some wrong way perhaps of applying therapy, that is the missing link. 

 

 

[Ashley]

10 hours ago, Isthisreality said:

I am not sure if links are allowed

No, we don't usually allow external links, but Mark's a friend of the charity and on our approved list so that can stay

[gingerbreadgirl]

3 hours ago, taurean said:

I was feeling like that, I really was. But I kept going, kept seeking the missing link, something that might turn what I had already learned in CBT into the gold standard I knew it truly was. 

yeah i think this is right, I definitely did the wrong things right at the beginning of this relapse.  it was triggered by the Harvey Weinstein stuff, reading it and getting that thud of panic, and then I ruminated, googled, gauged opinion, etc. it all snowballed from there.  If I hadn't done that, maybe none of the rest of it would have followed. 

[gingerbreadgirl]

13 hours ago, Ashley said:

Of course.. you could wait for the waves to hit, or you could grab a surf board and learn to ride those peaks, ok you may fall, you may get wet, but better than waiting for them to crash you into rocks ?

I do totally see what you're saying Ashley - I guess the point I am trying to very inarticulately make is that how do I see it coming when it seems like OCD has receded to the background? Do I have to just be always extremely vigilant, is that how recovered people live? 

[Ashley]

2 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

how do I see it coming when it seems like OCD has receded to the background? Do I have to just be always extremely vigilant, is that how recovered people live? 

To be honest, that's a good question.

With the areas of my OCD that I have resolved, I am not sure I am vigilant anymore, I suppose every now and then a slightly anxious moment crops up, but I sort of automatically challenge myself without really realising I am doing it. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with being vigilant if it's a sort of automatic thing, but if it's a conscious effort to be vigilant I wonder if that's an indication the problem is still not fully resolved?

I think this is maybe making a good basis for a conference presentation to get some expert view on this, from an expert and maybe someone whose reached recovery, a few bullet points below (feel free to add). I remember asking Mark once how is OCD was and he just snapped back at me matter of factly, 'Ashley I don't have OCD anymore!'

• What is recovery?
• Why do we relapse out of the blue?
• Is relapsing a sign that the therapy was not quite effective originally?
• Are people with OCD always going to be prone to relapses?
• Will OCD always be there?
• Should we always be vigilant?
• Do we need to do exposure work regularly, long after recovery?

 

[Gemma7]

I think the reason relapses occur is because the beliefs people have about themselves and the world go unchallenged during therapy. It's these beliefs that have caused the problem in the first place. So it's possible that you can stop the obsession compulsion cycle but still not have challenged the beliefs. 

This means that your resilience against further triggers remains low and OCD comes back. 

I had OCD when i was 14-15, i stopped compulsions, got fully better, then got OCD at 19. Other than stopping compulsions I didn't really change any other aspect of how I thought about things. 

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thank you both, what you say makes a lot of sense.  it's the cognitive stuff, basically x

[BelAnna]

25 minutes ago, Ashley said:

To be honest, that's a good question.

With the areas of my OCD that I have resolved, I am not sure I am vigilant anymore, I suppose every now and then a slightly anxious moment crops up, but I sort of automatically challenge myself without really realising I am doing it. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with being vigilant if it's a sort of automatic thing, but if it's a conscious effort to be vigilant I wonder if that's an indication the problem is still not fully resolved?

I think this is maybe making a good basis for a conference presentation to get some expert view on this, from an expert and maybe someone whose reached recovery, a few bullet points below (feel free to add). I remember asking Mark once how is OCD was and he just snapped back at me matter of factly, 'Ashley I don't have OCD anymore!'

• What is recovery?
• Why do we relapse out of the blue?
• Is relapsing a sign that the therapy was not quite effective originally?
• Are people with OCD always going to be prone to relapses?
• Will OCD always be there?
• Should we always be vigilant?
• Do we need to do exposure work regularly, long after recovery?

 

^^^ This would be great Ashley! Maybe could there be a feature on it in the OCD magazine. 

[Ashley]

1 hour ago, BelAnna said:

^^^ This would be great Ashley! Maybe could there be a feature on it in the OCD magazine. 

Yes that's a good idea, perhaps post conference to create an article from the content.