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Get off the forum and start working at challenging your OCD!


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I think Bear and Caramoole have summed it up very clearly.

The message is aimed at those people who have declared their issues been told what to do but don't engage with it and keep returning to the forum to complain about how they feel but have not been engaging with the therapy.

An especial situation is those who clearly don't note down in some format what they are supposed to be doing.

We are fairly clear that they msy improve if they stick at the therapy - but they don't they carry on compusing checking ruminating and engaging with thoughts then wonder why they are not improving.

For some people their condition really does need exploration of meds to find something that truly assists - for others more complex issues inhibit progress.

But the positive message is that many are stuck because they don't go away and do what they have been told to do.

The success stories that people post are when they have taken leaps of faith stopped compulsing maybe varied meds and realised that the ideas can work for them.

Ashley has enormous drive and without that this charity and these forums and a lot of recoveries would not exist.

I don't myself like criticism but have to agree thst spending too much time focusing on the disorder and on the forums can inhibit recovery.

Edited by taurean
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I agree 100% with the sentiment of some people here being unwilling to get better. There are people here who post the same thing over and over again, and get very sound advice from the people here.

But for whatever reason, they are not willing to take the leap of faith that it is OCD and that we do not have to feel this way.

It is hard. No one here will question the difficulty of facing your OCD head-on, but it needs to be done nonetheless.

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Personally I think it could be very tricky to question if someone isn't trying hard enough& or unwilling to challenge their OCD,yes that may be possible but in many cases certain individuals may be very depressed for e.g and their OCD has just such a strong hold over them it may come across they aren't pushing themselves but it just isn't happening for one reason or another.I've written I do understand what it's like because trust me I do being in severe major depression for so long,struggling with such debilitating OCD,BDD&Anxiety many hospitalizations you name I know it's no walk in the park.

I try to be careful of questioning whether a person is trying hard enough or not because I know how tough it can be, no disrespect to any of you guys opinions I'm just saying :original: .Yeah some people may have written the same things but to me they're just stuck I don't think or wouldn't say they aren't trying they're just usually so depressed& with strong depression compounded with severe OCD,anxiety etc etc it is actually virtually impossible to evenb challenge trhe OCD :original: .

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Ugh I give up no matter how many times I try and explain what I mean it isn't going to work I am done.

I'm not sure what you want Eden. Do you want people to capitulate and abandon what they believe based off their own experience?

People do hear what you're saying, it doesn't necessarily mean they share those views though. We all hold different views based on different experiences.

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Guest eden1616

I'm not sure what you want Eden. Do you want people to capitulate and abandon what they believe based off their own experience?

People do hear what you're saying, it doesn't necessarily mean they share those views though. We all hold different views based on different experiences.

I am not saying you have to agree with me but people keep saying the same thing over and over again and they are saying things that arent relevant to what i said which makes me think people havent understood. You keep saying the message is this and that but that is NOT what i am talking i am talking about wether or not you can make assumptions about a person when you dont know all the info and when you arent that person. I haven't said anything about the overall message at any point i am only talking about the use of words unwilling and the sort not what needs to be done for recovery not that people need to face their fears ONLY that it is unfair to make assumptions about how hard people are trying when you are NOT THAT PERSON.

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Ugh I don't have a problem with people being responsible for their own recovery that is NOT what I am trying to say ALL I am trying to say it that I DONT think it is fair or even possible to "know" exactly how someone is feeling unless you are that person, and making assumptions about someone's situation is in many ways wrong. You only see a small portion of people on here I know I sure don't tell you 90% of the things about myself or my life and without out that knowledge assuming how hard someone is trying is not reasonable and can be unfair.

Of course I don't know exactly how someone is feeling. That said, if someone has the knowledge about OCD and their own disorder and knows what steps should be taken to overcome their OCD and they don't do it, they are either unwilling (for a variety of reasons) or unable. And I'm being nice putting in 'unable'. It's like someone can be very willing to get better but they're unwilling to do the exposures necessary to overcome their particular version of the disorder.

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Personally I think it could be very tricky to question if someone isn't trying hard enough& or unwilling to challenge their OCD,yes that may be possible but in many cases certain individuals may be very depressed for e.g and their OCD has just such a strong hold over them it may come across they aren't pushing themselves but it just isn't happening for one reason or another.I've written I do understand what it's like because trust me I do being in severe major depression for so long,struggling with such debilitating OCD,BDD&Anxiety many hospitalizations you name I know it's no walk in the park.

I try to be careful of questioning whether a person is trying hard enough or not because I know how tough it can be, no disrespect to any of you guys opinions I'm just saying :original: .Yeah some people may have written the same things but to me they're just stuck I don't think or wouldn't say they aren't trying they're just usually so depressed& with strong depression compounded with severe OCD,anxiety etc etc it is actually virtually impossible to evenb challenge trhe OCD :original: .

I agree. A person may be so depressed that they cannot engage their anxiety and OCD. In that case they are either unwilling or unable to do it. A person may have several real world problems (death in the family, divorce, loss of job, etc.) that takes precedence over their recovery from OCD. In that case the person is still unwilling or unable to do it.

They're not nasty words, people. They just are what they are.

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I am not saying you have to agree with me but people keep saying the same thing over and over again and they are saying things that arent relevant to what i said which makes me think people havent understood. You keep saying the message is this and that but that is NOT what i am talking i am talking about wether or not you can make assumptions about a person when you dont know all the info and when you arent that person. I haven't said anything about the overall message at any point i am only talking about the use of words unwilling and the sort not what needs to be done for recovery not that people need to face their fears ONLY that it is unfair to make assumptions about how hard people are trying when you are NOT THAT PERSON.

I agree that I cannot make good assumptions about a person when I don't know all the info about that person and I am not that person. I agree. The use of the word 'unwilling' does not take away from how hard a person is trying. But, there are people here who are unwilling or unable to do what it takes to get better. That is just a fact. It's the way it is. I by no means meant everyone on this forum is unwilling. That would clearly be incorrect. But there are people who are unwilling. That's not a judgment of them or where they are along in their recovery. It is a simple matter that people are told to do A repeatedly and they don't do A. Why don't they do A? Because they are unwilling or unable to do so.

And there may be a variety of reasons why a person is unwilling or unable. They may have things going on in their lives that are more important at the time. They may be too depressed to put the effort into recovery. They may be so tied up with their OCD (in such an extreme state) that they can't see the forest for the trees and are unable to participate in known therapeutic steps. They're still unwilling or unable to do what it takes, at least for the time being.

Edited by PolarBear
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Guest eden1616

I agree that I cannot make good assumptions about a person when I don't know all the info about that person and I am not that person. I agree. The use of the word 'unwilling' does not take away from how hard a person is trying. But, there are people here who are unwilling or unable to do what it takes to get better. That is just a fact. It's the way it is. I by no means meant everyone on this forum is unwilling. That would clearly be incorrect. But there are people who are unwilling. That's not a judgment of them or where they are along in their recovery. It is a simple matter that people are told to do A repeatedly and they don't do A. Why don't they do A? Because they are unwilling or unable to do so.

And there may be a variety of reasons why a person is unwilling or unable. They may have things going on in their lives that are more important at the time. They may be too depressed to put the effort into recovery. They may be so tied up with their OCD (in such an extreme state) that they can't see the forest for the trees and are unable to participate in known therapeutic steps. They're still unwilling or unable to do what it takes, at least for the time being.

Yes however all of the things you lisyed i would say came under UNABLE NOT unwilling. I am not disagreeing with the word unable just the word unwilling because i dont think you can prove a person is unwilling in which case it would be deemed unable and to say unwilling is like saying guilty untill proven innocent.

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Yes however all of the things you lisyed i would say came under UNABLE NOT unwilling. I am not disagreeing with the word unable just the word unwilling because i dont think you can prove a person is unwilling in which case it would be deemed unable and to say unwilling is like saying guilty untill proven innocent.

Well that's where we differ. I think unwilling is the perfect word to describe many situations found on the forum. It's not like these people have physical disabilities that prevent them from doing exposures, stopping compulsions. Some people are told repeatedly what they should try doing but they don't do it. Are they unable? Perhaps if they've got some of things I described above going on. Other that that, in many cases, I find these people unwilling to make the move, to make the change, to try something new.

This disagreement probably comes from a difference in philosophy about what OCD is and how it can be overcome. I come from the school that OCD is not a life sentence, that it is a conquerable malady that takes commitment, hard work and putting up with anxiety. I know it's hard. I know it's bloody hard. Overcoming OCD takes willpower and you have to be willing to step into the great unknown, despite your OCD screaming at you that it is the wrong thing to do.

Edited by PolarBear
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i am talking about wether or not you can make assumptions about a person when you dont know all the info and when you arent that person

It's a risk we all take when we join a public forum. We take what we choose (or find helpful) and ignore what we don't agree with. There is no perfect prescription or solution. Ultimately, we use the tips and advice as we find appropriate and disregard the rest, if that's what we feel is the right thing to do. No matter how much belief we have in "our" opinion, it is just that, "Ours".......you don't have to take on board anyone else's.

I'm ancient compared to you Eden.....I've made many mistakes, my opinion and beliefs have changed many times. Beliefs I had 40 years ago I see differently today. I do actually believe that there are many sufferers who are "unwilling" to face the anxiety that is inevitable.....and that's not actually meant as a criticism, merely an observation and one that I understand perfectly.

The bottom line is that this is a public forum, some advice and opinions we will lean towards....other opinions we will completely disagree with and reject. Sometimes (in time) our own opinions may change.

Take what advice you find useful, reject what you don't....be prepared to accept a shift in your own opinion and be master of your own destiny, now, in time or in the future. Stand by your own opinion but don't be upset if the opinion of others isn't in accord. We're all actually on the same side and that is for one of recovery

Caramoole

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Well that's where we differ. I think unwilling is the perfect word to describe many situations found on the forum. It's not like these people have physical disabilities that prevent them from doing exposures, stopping compulsions. Some people are told repeatedly what they should try doing but they don't do it. Are they unable? Perhaps if they've got some of things I described above going on. Other that that, in many cases, I find these people unwilling to make the move, to make the change, to try something new.

This disagreement probably comes from a difference in philosophy about what OCD is and how it can be overcome. I come from the school that OCD is not a life sentence, that it is a conquerable malady that takes commitment, hard work and putting up with anxiety. I know it's hard. I know it's bloody hard. Overcoming OCD takes willpower and you have to be willing to step into the great unknown, despite your OCD screaming at you that it is the wrong thing to do.

A person may not have physical disabilities PB yes that prevents them doing exposure therapy but they may be suffering very severe depression for e.g,struggle to even get out of bed,have crippling anxiety& their OCD to the point they simply cannot no way attack& challenge their OCD at this moment they may have tried but simply can't deal with it right now whether or not they're unwilling I can't answer that but I really doubt it my friend.Maybe people are trying but they just can't do it right now,maybe they need another approach? maybe it's just too difficult right now?.In saying all this I'm not here to argue with anyone just to say,yes you can put up with anxiety but I do think it really depends on what level it's at,if it simply is so great then just about at that present moment no one can deal with it,if it's at a tolerable level then that is certainly much easier to deal with&tolerate.

If you don'thave a physical disability but ok you can say it's a day where you feel you're able to challenge your OCD feel pretty ok then that's fair maybe to say ok today you can have a big attempt to challenge your ocd,if you're very unwell for e.g so depressed,can't bare to face the world,absolutely anxious as hell,your OCD is so terrible I don't think you would be able to challenge anything like that.

Speaking for myself I do go away& try always to take all the advice on board,many days I've gone away& tried to challenge my OCD at times it's been all too much and I just couldn't attack it because of how I was feeling,other times I've tried& actually had some success.I do know one thing for sure when being so badly depressed for sure I didn't have no energy especially mentally& physically to do anything even getting out of bed was such a big chor :D .

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Guest eden1616

Well that's where we differ. I think unwilling is the perfect word to describe many situations found on the forum. It's not like these people have physical disabilities that prevent them from doing exposures, stopping compulsions. Some people are told repeatedly what they should try doing but they don't do it. Are they unable? Perhaps if they've got some of things I described above going on. Other that that, in many cases, I find these people unwilling to make the move, to make the change, to try something new.

This disagreement probably comes from a difference in philosophy about what OCD is and how it can be overcome. I come from the school that OCD is not a life sentence, that it is a conquerable malady that takes commitment, hard work and putting up with anxiety. I know it's hard. I know it's bloody hard. Overcoming OCD takes willpower and you have to be willing to step into the great unknown, despite your OCD screaming at you that it is the wrong thing to do.

i dont think it is just a difference in philosophy i think perhaps a difference in opinion of what exactly the word unwilling means in an emotional sense as well as perhaps life experiences and personality. and as ace says mental disability is just as hard as physical. i think a lot of the advice given here only factors in ocd and not so much other conditions which is understandable but ocd does seem to often coincide with other conditions and while i dont think it is fair to expect anyone to know what other peoples are i do think keeping an open mind to the possibility of other factors would be helpful. another thing i often notice polar bear is that you seem to be the sort of person who fights for things and has the drive in them or seems to at least have it somewhere deep down. some people dont have that or dont think they are worth enough to fight for and that fight gives you a tool against the ocd but for those without it makes it difficult.

It's a risk we all take when we join a public forum. We take what we choose (or find helpful) and ignore what we don't agree with. There is no perfect prescription or solution. Ultimately, we use the tips and advice as we find appropriate and disregard the rest, if that's what we feel is the right thing to do. No matter how much belief we have in "our" opinion, it is just that, "Ours".......you don't have to take on board anyone else's.

I'm ancient compared to you Eden.....I've made many mistakes, my opinion and beliefs have changed many times. Beliefs I had 40 years ago I see differently today. I do actually believe that there are many sufferers who are "unwilling" to face the anxiety that is inevitable.....and that's not actually meant as a criticism, merely an observation and one that I understand perfectly.

The bottom line is that this is a public forum, some advice and opinions we will lean towards....other opinions we will completely disagree with and reject. Sometimes (in time) our own opinions may change.

Take what advice you find useful, reject what you don't....be prepared to accept a shift in your own opinion and be master of your own destiny, now, in time or in the future. Stand by your own opinion but don't be upset if the opinion of others isn't in accord. We're all actually on the same side and that is for one of recovery

Caramoole

that is what i am trying to say all of this is opinions and i guess i find it bothers me when people try and pass their opinion off as a fact. everything is some variation of opinion they are impossible to avoid even an information report has opinions in it as it is one persons interpretation of that information i dont thing there really is such a thing as a fact i think it is all just theories and until other evidence is found that theory is taken as a fact.

A person may not have physical disabilities PB yes that prevents them doing exposure therapy but they may be suffering very severe depression for e.g,struggle to even get out of bed,have crippling anxiety& their OCD to the point they simply cannot no way attack& challenge their OCD at this moment they may have tried but simply can't deal with it right now whether or not they're unwilling I can't answer that but I really doubt it my friend.Maybe people are trying but they just can't do it right now,maybe they need another approach? maybe it's just too difficult right now?.In saying all this I'm not here to argue with anyone just to say,yes you can put up with anxiety but I do think it really depends on what level it's at,if it simply is so great then just about at that present moment no one can deal with it,if it's at a tolerable level then that is certainly much easier to deal with&tolerate.

If you don'thave a physical disability but ok you can say it's a day where you feel you're able to challenge your OCD feel pretty ok then that's fair maybe to say ok today you can have a big attempt to challenge your ocd,if you're very unwell for e.g so depressed,can't bare to face the world,absolutely anxious as hell,your OCD is so terrible I don't think you would be able to challenge anything like that.

Speaking for myself I do go away& try always to take all the advice on board,many days I've gone away& tried to challenge my OCD at times it's been all too much and I just couldn't attack it because of how I was feeling,other times I've tried& actually had some success.I do know one thing for sure when being so badly depressed for sure I didn't have no energy especially mentally& physically to do anything even getting out of bed was such a big chor :D .

:original:

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I think the message coming through on the thread is clear now.

Where possible we should be focusing on recovery through suggested means.In my case getting busier even when not feeling physically well, resisting OCD's attempts to control what I may do, using controlled exposure when able and looking to focus on other things than OCD by reducing forum time and the topics I post on.Plus actively working on positivity. And challenging non-OCD thinking distortions by changing behaviours.

So thete are things for me and me only to be doing.Others will have different requirements

Edited by taurean
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Guest Tricia

This disagreement probably comes from a difference in philosophy about what OCD is and how it can be overcome. I come from the school that OCD is not a life sentence, that it is a conquerable malady that takes commitment, hard work and putting up with anxiety. I know it's hard. I know it's bloody hard. Overcoming OCD takes willpower and you have to be willing to step into the great unknown, despite your OCD screaming at you that it is the wrong thing to do.

I know of only one 'expert' who has said that OCD is always conquerable and even he, in private, has told me differently! I won't bore you with all the statistics, but I will ask you this, Polar Bear, if you had not benefited from a reduction of 80 percent, thanks to your medications, can you say, with absolute certainty and honesty, that you'd be doing as well as you are with commitment and hard work alone?!

It is insulting to assume that those who remain very ill have not been prepared 'to step into the great unknown', as you phrased it, and tolerate terrible anxiety long-term. I have a dear friend, almost seventy, facing yet more exposure therapy, determined to overcome her fears. I am praying it works for her this time, because with her courage and attitude it should, if there's any justice in this world. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked for her during the past five decades, despite her determination and expert help. So, alas, there's a chance she will be bitterly disappointed yet again. Does that mean she's unwilling, unable or weak? No, it does NOT!

Well, this thread has certainly helped to achieve its aim! I am off! And, from what I have heard, I will not be alone.

Edited by Tricia
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I think Tricia and Eden have made very valid points.

For some, whatever they try however willing they are, they may not recover although for some issues they can.For some, sadly they recover from one flavour of OCD and another breaks out. ITS NOT THEIR FAULT.

Many people here do have multiple issues.

One size doesn't fit all.For some people Acceptance and Commitment Therapy has been a catalyst to success.

Some people only have one issue but something inside inhibits them. I have thought loops - I have taken offence to people's comments in the past about that - to have it so drastically as I do is not usual - confirmed by the specialists I have consulted - and I have found only several people with anything quite similar out there. It really does make things difficult for me. I do feel a med may help but looks like it may possibly not be citalopram which I have been on now for two and a half months. I will give it longer as I am still looking to reduce anxiety and stress symptoms .

Resilience and strength of character does help fight OCD - oh yes, it does. Some of my forum friends like me aren't so strong, and it certainly is not so easy to keep going and fight. I will challenge anyone to keep functioning when you have constant looping thoughts. My missus gets it sometimes when she is under stress - I can get it for days on end .

Tricia's point re PolarBear and his meds is massively valid. Without that 80% help from the meds he might not be recovered.

But Caramooles point and Bear's - and mine - that there are people who do have the tools - and maybe they can recover - but just don't appear to make notes of what is suggested or really put them into practice is really where the point of the thread is aimed. They come back on here complaining but are still testing checking compulsing giving time of day to and endaging with intrusions - exactly what they ought NOT to do - difficult certainly but without giving it a real go who knows what they could achieve?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion - and sadly the utopia of an empty forum because everyone is recovered is not going to happen - not least because this forum is regularly said by recent joiners to be extremely helpful and new people join every day.

I'd like to appeal to people not to get the hump over this thread. Ashley's intentions are totally laudable and his workload and drive for the charity and the forums is massive. I think he is also running two support groups in different parts of the country. And without membership fees donations and fund-raising these free to air forums would not exist.

Yes he could have put some caveats in that would have made people more comfortable. But if we just take time out and realise some out there are not doing what they need to to have a chance of recovering - then that's what Ashley me and others want to change. .

I've had loads of CBT done lots of ERP but not had much chance to try meds because of long working hours and travelling when working. Work was a distraction but nevertheless I was still experiencing two major OCD breakdowns a year.So I do have episodic OCD and, as Caramoole put it, a number of layers on the OCD onion to peel off.

I've had more therapy recently, I've sought help here from others re meds and thought loops, I've sought more specific guidance here dealing with intrusions and negative connections, and I am doing what has been suggested.

Tricia and Eden Daisy and ADD especially have complex problems - but notwithstanding those they see things and point them out to others with the laudable intent of seeking to help and encourage them.

Sadly we can't all be a James - as it happens I have both issues that he has recovered from - the heights thing has been with me for quite a few years and I do plenty of exposure and it goes away for long periods but can flare up - last year I did a lot of ERP on it.

But those other layers on my OCD onion and the wide range of other issues and the thought loops impede me. Its not a question of not trying - in fact I was recently - undoubtedly rightly - told I was overtrying!!!

But please don't take umbrage to a thread that has now turned into something quite valid - no-one can possibly not understand now where we are all coming from.

Don't turn away from a charity and forums that have a real purpose and use - a particular thing I welcome is the work being done to educate therapists about the disorder - that's only one thing of many but its great.

Edited by taurean
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Tricia, your responses seem to completely ignore the spirit, message and original intention of this thread. You have taken certain comments and personalised them rather than looking at the complete picture of what was being said. I think it is naive and unrealistic to not accept that there are some people who are "unwilling" to take the next step forward. I understand why they don't, but it is still a fact. There are many who will make excellent progress once they find the will and courage to take the necessary steps. Although there may be some who cannot achieve recovery, there are very many who do.

Whilst it may be important to share personal experience, to educate others, family and friends about the extreme difficulties, to paint a full picture.....it is also VERY important to paint an honest one which also informs sufferers and their families that they are not necessarily doomed for life, that it isn't a life sentence for all .

Just as some with diabetes will suffer circulatory problems and amputation, a larger percentage won't.

Well, this thread has certainly helped to achieve its aim! I am off! And, from what I have heard, I will not be alone.

That is a decision that only you (and those who feel similarly) must make. The Charity has its opinions, its beliefs, it's visions, it's philosophy and if that isn't in accord with your own beliefs then perhaps we aren't the right choice for you.

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Guest eden1616

I think Tricia and Eden have made very valid points.

For some, whatever they try however willing they are, they may not recover although for some issues they can.For some, sadly they recover from one flavour of OCD and another breaks out. ITS NOT THEIR FAULT.

Many people here do have multiple issues.

One size doesn't fit all.For some people Acceptance and Commitment Therapy has been a catalyst to success.

Some people only have one issue but something inside inhibits them. I have thought loops - I have taken offence to people's comments in the past about that - to have it so drastically as I do is not usual - confirmed by the specialists I have consulted - and I have found only several people with anything quite similar out there. It really does make things difficult for me. I do feel a med may help but looks like it may possibly not be citalopram which I have been on now for two and a half months. I will give it longer as I am still looking to reduce anxiety and stress symptoms .

Resilience and strength of character does help fight OCD - oh yes, it does. Some of my forum friends like me aren't so strong, and it certainly is not so easy to keep going and fight. I will challenge anyone to keep functioning when you have constant looping thoughts. My missus gets it sometimes when she is under stress - I can get it for days on end .

Tricia's point re PolarBear and his meds is massively valid. Without that 80% help from the meds he might not be recovered.

But Caramooles point and Bear's - and mine - that there are people who do have the tools - and maybe they can recover - but just don't appear to make notes of what is suggested or really put them into practice is really where the point of the thread is aimed. They come back on here complaining but are still testing checking compulsing giving time of day to and endaging with intrusions - exactly what they ought NOT to do - difficult certainly but without giving it a real go who knows what they could achieve?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion - and sadly the utopia of an empty forum because everyone is recovered is not going to happen - not least because this forum is regularly said by recent joiners to be extremely helpful and new people join every day.

I'd like to appeal to people not to get the hump over this thread. Ashley's intentions are totally laudable and his workload and drive for the charity and the forums is massive. I think he is also running two support groups in different parts of the country. And without membership fees donations and fund-raising these free to air forums would not exist.

Yes he could have put some caveats in that would have made people more comfortable. But if we just take time out and realise some out there are not doing what they need to to have a chance of recovering - then that's what Ashley me and others want to change. .

I've had loads of CBT done lots of ERP but not had much chance to try meds because of long working hours and travelling when working. Work was a distraction but nevertheless I was still experiencing two major OCD breakdowns a year.So I do have episodic OCD and, as Caramoole put it, a number of layers on the OCD onion to peel off.

I've had more therapy recently, I've sought help here from others re meds and thought loops, I've sought more specific guidance here dealing with intrusions and negative connections, and I am doing what has been suggested.

Tricia and Eden Daisy and ADD especially have complex problems - but notwithstanding those they see things and point them out to others with the laudable intent of seeking to help and encourage them.

Sadly we can't all be a James - as it happens I have both issues that he has recovered from - the heights thing has been with me for quite a few years and I do plenty of exposure and it goes away for long periods but can flare up - last year I did a lot of ERP on it.

But those other layers on my OCD onion and the wide range of other issues and the thought loops impede me. Its not a question of not trying - in fact I was recently - undoubtedly rightly - told I was overtrying!!!

But please don't take umbrage to a thread that has now turned into something quite valid - no-one can possibly not understand now where we are all coming from.

Don't turn away from a charity and forums that have a real purpose and use - a particular thing I welcome is the work being done to educate therapists about the disorder - that's only one thing of many but its great.

I think I know what you mean.

For me I am ONLY referring to the point that to say that someone is not trying or is unwilling is making an ASSUMPTION about them. And making an assumption can be unfair when people don't know the whole story and just unfair in general. No one can know how another is feeling or if they are unwilling unless they are that person. And I feel to make an assumption on that is not fair to the person the assumption is being made about.

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I think I know what you mean.

For me I am ONLY referring to the point that to say that someone is not trying or is unwilling is making an ASSUMPTION about them. And making an assumption can be unfair when people don't know the whole story and just unfair in general. No one can know how another is feeling or if they are unwilling unless they are that person. And I feel to make an assumption on that is not fair to the person the assumption is being made about.

You keep talking about assumptions, in some cases the 'unwilling' line is appropriate because from their own admissions some are unwilling to engage in therapy, for whatever reason, so it is not an assumption it is fact.

For most people on the forum they are already doing the work, and my thread is non-relevant for a few my thread is very relevant, it's not for any of us to say who the thread is relevant for, it is down to each of us to ask ourselves the question.

It doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks ultimately, what matters if each of us are being 100% honest with ourselves and asking ourselves the question 'Am I pushing myself enough, am I trying hard enough?'. I know for a long time I wasn't, and it took someone to point that out to me before I eventually thought 'Hang on, damn, she is right', only then did I start to make progress. I hope this thread helps others at least ask themselves the question and lead to them finding the answer. The question might be 'How do I become more willing to engage?' and that is a damn fine question to ask.

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I know of only one 'expert' who has said that OCD is always conquerable and even he, in private, has told me differently! I won't bore you with all the statistics, but I will ask you this, Polar Bear, if you had not benefited from a reduction of 80 percent, thanks to your medications, can you say, with absolute certainty and honesty, that you'd be doing as well as you are with commitment and hard work alone?!

It is insulting to assume that those who remain very ill have not been prepared 'to step into the great unknown', as you phrased it, and tolerate terrible anxiety long-term. I have a dear friend, almost seventy, facing yet more exposure therapy, determined to overcome her fears. I am praying it works for her this time, because with her courage and attitude it should, if there's any justice in this world. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked for her during the past five decades, despite her determination and expert help. So, alas, there's a chance she will be bitterly disappointed yet again. Does that mean she's unwilling, unable or weak? No, it does NOT!

Well, this thread has certainly helped to achieve its aim! I am off! And, from what I have heard, I will not be alone.

Unfortunately you have personalized what was said and taken it completely out of context. I was not referring to people who have tried and tried and tried everything and still not seen any improvement. I was speaking to the significant number of people who are stuck with their OCD and do not try.

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