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Seeking Certainty............................


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I have noted that there have been a number of posts recently where the writers have been seeking to know that people have absolutely been cured from their OCD

Telling us we have to seek certainty is in fact one of the games that OCD plays upon us to distress us, and so I think it's wise to be wary of that.

i came across a statement from Ashley our co-founder, who stated that he reckons he is at about 80% on the scale of recovery from (contamination) OCD - and that's with all the knowledge that he has accumulated over many years.

I know an awful lot about OCD, and yet I am always going to suffer relapses because my version of OCD is episodic.

It's understandable that people are desperately seeking to know there are solutions for OCD out there, but I think that is a better word than the certainty of "cure".I tend to view tackling OCD as firstly a gaining understanding process, then a doing process, with the aim of managing the OCD so that it no longer rules our lives, and gaining the knowledge to deal with relapses should/if they occur.

Best regards

Roy

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Yes I agree, unfortunately the desire to achieve 100% certainty is one of OCD's most deceptive tricks that can fool even the most knowledgeable sufferers.

I'm always a bit sceptical when someone mentions that they have been totally cured. I think what we need to strive for is to strengthen our resolve enough to not let OCD rule our lives and rather let it be an annoying voice in the background which we can mostly ignore.

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Guest thealgorithm

It is absolutely the seeking certainty that the OCD strives to inflict suffering on the individual.

I had another OCD spike a few days ago in work. I work in an office dealing with forecasts and success rates etc (A lot of spreadsheet work) However In my spare time I am a computer programmer who creates and develops video/audio encoding/decoding applications.

The computer field is a broad range with experts in each different field. For example I consider myself an expert in programming these types of code/optimizing etc. But I don't have expert knowledge in other computer fields such as networking, database programming, web based java etc)

Many people in work do not know what I do in my spare time, and I don't really talk about it or try to explain.

A few days ago, we had a glitch in our database systems and the director told everyone that I was the expert of sorting this out (He is one of the people who knows about what I do programming wise).

One of my other colleagues and my line manager (who I do get on well with actually) was mentioning to me that it is unfair that the director is putting this burden upon me as I am not a programmer or IT expert!

This caused quite a massive spike, as I do know that I am a programmer, however I did agree with her mentioning that I was not an IT expert in that field (database) and that my job is not a programmer in this office (rather than arguing with her and giving links to my credentials, web links, etc)

It has actually been a few times that she has done this. Anyhow my OCD from then started mentioning that due to this incident, I will not be a programmer anymore (e.g magical thinking OCD again) I have constantly performed compulsions as well in order to seek "certainty" which the OCD never gives regardless of me looking at my own programming creations as evidence!

Even during some coding exercises in my spare time, the OCD shouts out "you are not a programmer".

This is the example of uncertainty/certainty (I know I am a programmer, and a very good one) but the OCD mentions otherwise.

Best situation is to ignore it which I am starting to do now

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I have never really agreed about the need for 100% certainty and seeking absolute certainty and people with OCD having some "intolerance to uncertainty" or whatever.

It's just fears. Fears, false beliefs and phobias. What people can't tolerate is feeling threatened, especially to something that is a sensitive or sore spot to them. They can't tolerate feeling like the threat is real or having some belief that it is a real threat they need to protect against. And it's ONLY with those fears / false beliefs.

So saying they can't tolerate uncertainty or need to seek certainty for it is the same thing as saying "people who have a fear of something have a need to not feel afraid" or "people who have a fear of something have a need to not feel threatened".

When I get false magical beliefs and feelings of threats of something and perform some 'magical compulsion' ritual in response to it to get rid of that feeling, that obviously has no logical nexus to the actual potential of such things and so is not seeking certainty even. It's only playing mind games to trick the mind into not believing there is a threat there anymore. To get the false message and feeling and thoughts to go away.

It's more that we simply feel threatened and seek fight/flight to escape the threat, nothing more.

"Since most problems are created in the mind and are thus imaginary, all we need are imaginary solutions."

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I have never really agreed about the need for 100% certainty and seeking absolute certainty and people with OCD having some "intolerance to uncertainty" or whatever.

It's just fears. Fears, false beliefs and phobias. What people can't tolerate is feeling threatened, especially to something that is a sensitive or sore spot to them. They can't tolerate feeling like the threat is real or having some belief that it is a real threat they need to protect against. And it's ONLY with those fears / false beliefs.

So saying they can't tolerate uncertainty or need to seek certainty for it is the same thing as saying "people who have a fear of something have a need to not feel afraid" or "people who have a fear of something have a need to not feel threatened".

When I get false magical beliefs and feelings of threats of something and perform some 'magical compulsion' ritual in response to it to get rid of that feeling, that obviously has no logical nexus to the actual potential of such things and so is not seeking certainty even. It's only playing mind games to trick the mind into not believing there is a threat there anymore. To get the false message and feeling and thoughts to go away.

It's more that we simply feel threatened and seek fight/flight to escape the threat, nothing more.

"Since most problems are created in the mind and are thus imaginary, all we need are imaginary solutions."

Speak for yourself, the feeling of not being in control and being unable to recall memories with pinpoint accuracy has always been the most difficult aspect of OCD for me.

Edited by Ascend
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Speak for yourself, the feeling of not being in control and being unable to recall memories with pinpoint accuracy has always been the most difficult aspect of OCD for me.

And I'm going to assume that the fear is not a fear of memory loss in general. So that's not the underlying fear or initial threat your mind created. Whatever it takes to try to convince the mind that a threat is not real and get the false message and belief to go away, the tape to stop playing, we'll do it. Some work, others don't.

When you feel the threats you might think that you need absolute certainty of something in order to feel alright and not just for the thoughts and feelings about it to be gone, though REAL knowledge and facts or whatever. Though as soon as the tape does stop playing and threatening feelings are gone (say through ERP and ignoring etc) then that need for that so called 'REAL' knowledge and certainty goes away. So it was never the real need in the first place, it only felt like it. The real need was only for the threatening feelings and thoughts to stop playing.

Edited by ADD
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Guest ObsessionAfterObsession

I think ADD has a point in the sense that we really actually don't know what the driving forces are behind OCD, at least when it comes neurology. We have some ideas about what parts of the brain could be affected based of imaging studies but that is all they really are at the moment is ideas and theories. Everything else is based on assumptions that we have made based on the observable behaviours. Even the name Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is based on that. When science improves we may be able to pinpoint exactly what is going on in an OCD persons brain. Is it an intolerance of uncertainty? Or is something else going on there that makes it appear that way?

In 20 years we may not even be calling it OCD.

Maybe it is an intolerance of uncertainty I am just saying I think ADD has a point in questioning it because right now we are working with theories and assumptions and very few definitive studies that point in any clear direction.

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It's true that I don't have an intolerance of uncertainty in general - only regarding my OCD fears. Outside of these I'm actually quite 'bla' about uncertainty and open to taking risks (which is another reason nobody would believe I have OCD). it's only the things my ocd has fixated on that make me want certainty. so what add says actually makes sense to me - I am intolerant of threat, not uncertainty in general. but when my OCD does fixate on something, I am absolutely desperate for certainty.

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Certainly the uncertainty is only in relation to the obsessions an individual has. A sufferer could wash his hands 30 times in a row because he is uncertain if they are clean then go bungee jumping, not worried about the risk at all.

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Guest ObsessionAfterObsession

It's true that I don't have an intolerance of uncertainty in general - only regarding my OCD fears. Outside of these I'm actually quite 'bla' about uncertainty and open to taking risks (which is another reason nobody would believe I have OCD). it's only the things my ocd has fixated on that make me want certainty. so what add says actually makes sense to me - I am intolerant of threat, not uncertainty in general. but when my OCD does fixate on something, I am absolutely desperate for certainty.

Exactly. I feel it's unlikely that it is an intolerance of uncertainty in itself but instead the brains attempt to rid itself of feeling at risk of danger which comes across as an intolerance of uncertainty when it could just be the brains natural response and the issue is the fear itself is overestimated and magnified. This fits in with the popular theory that the faulty part of the brain is the part responsible for keeping us safe.

What appears to be an intolerance of uncertainty could just be part of a chain reaction caused by that particular part of the brain. If it was a complete inability to cope with uncertainty you would think OCD sufferers would respond with the same intolerance across the board but they don't, they only respond that way to their specific fears. Everything else they are able to let go of.

Why is that important? Well many people, including doctors and psychologists list intolerance of uncertainty as part of the disorder when it may have nothing to do with the driving forces behind it at all. We need more research.

Edited by ObsessionAfterObsession
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Guest ObsessionAfterObsession

It may not be part of the cause but it's still part of the disorder.

I know. I specifically mean the driving forces behind OCD and figuring out what is really going on there so we can improve treatment. I mean like if you tried to treat muscle pain with physical therapy but the muscle pains root cause was depression you would not get very far. The only extensive OCD research I have ever seen was by Dr Shwartz. We need more than that.

For all I know it could be an intolerance disorder. Without research nobody knows. Even what I am saying is a theory.

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Finding out how genetics work with environment (early life experiences laying assumptions, etc...) would be the key for me. I've had obsessive compulsive behaviours since I was single figures. I started skin-picking at six/seven because I was scared I might have a brain tumour (I was trying to feel it on my head and opened scabs.) It's such an ingrained pattern of trying to cope with anxiety, that conversely feeds anxiety...

It took me a few years after identifying OCD as the problem to resign myself to the fact it's not something that has a cure, or I can get completely better from. As much as brain plasticity is a thing, it's a chronic illness, however it begun (or begins.) It can't be cured, but it can be managed.

Maybe one day they'll stumble across a magical miracle cure.

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I'm mostly with you on that Chaitealauren.

I say mostly because some people do seem to completely recover. Legend, for example - but for many I think understanding CBT and carrying out its required responses and management are the realistic aim.

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Guest thealgorithm

Being able to keep it at bay and being cured of it is a completely different thing however. It may be possible to eradicate it completely by "rewiring". The cause of OCD is still not known fully, although there is mention of the basal ganglia in the brain being somewhat affected in people who have OCD

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@taurean - From an armchair scientist's (ha!) perspective, I picture it like depression. OCD can probably be chronic or acute. It can develop at most any point in a person's life, though I understand there are trends?

@thealgorithm - Mmm, and there might be several combinations of genetic/environmental factors that can lead to OCD symptoms and behaviours. Great big wrinkly complicated chunks of smart fat that our brains are.

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Being able to keep it at bay and being cured of it is a completely different thing however. It may be possible to eradicate it completely by "rewiring". The cause of OCD is still not known fully, although there is mention of the basal ganglia in the brain being somewhat affected in people who have OCD

I'm pretty comfortable with Jeffey Schwartz's explanation in "Brainlock" where the normal passage of thoughts through the frontal lobe of the brain gets locked.That explains why i get "thought loops"that constantly recur and don't resolve, as a key component of my own OCD.

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When I get certain magical threats my OCD throws out, my compulsive response is often to just avoid it completely. Since I'm not sure and it feels like there is a slight chance and risk of the threat being true, then my response is, well I'll just not even take that risk at all then and thus eliminate any risk. Then I don't have to wonder about how true it is or not, I just avoid the thing my OCD voice is telling is a risk.

Reassurance is simply a component of any fear or phobia. If you don't want reassurance then there was no fear in the first place. So why name it something else?

There are many things I’m afraid of that I truly honestly don’t need certainty of to be alright with them. I only need a reasonable amount of confidence for them which I don’t have.

With other things, especially things that have already happened or I can’t control that are in doubt and that upset my OCD, then simple self reassurance works for me in most cases. I make up a story and tell myself what I want to believe about them or I downplay them, even at times when I know I'm lying to myself. Or I tell myself to forget about it. And that works for me the majority of the time to get rid of the thoughts about it and move on. Literally denial and lying to myself sometimes. So that is far from needing real information and absolute certainty and facts. I know that it is about beliefs and so I often just make believe. Instead of choosing negative assumptions to fill in the missing information and doubt, I choose positive ones to tell myself. I simply choose to give things the benefit of the doubt and believe the positive possibility of some unknown, giving explanations of how it could be what I'd be alright with. God. Seriously, the truth is overrated!

I just wished it worked on my future based decision fears and magical thinking or fear of associations and mental contamination. Those are still very resistant. Some compulsions I’m just extremely attached to and other fears have to do with fear of OCD future memories and intrusive thoughts themselves, so they are self fulfilling or ‘real' fears. I fear that the terrible illusion and intrusive thoughts/ocd about it won’t ever go away and will be permanently tied to something to torment me with intrusive thoughts each time I notice it or interact with it again. Or the intrusive thoughts were what I was bothered by in the first place and can’t stand. And I feel no uncertainty of that, I feel certain that’s how it’s going to be based on experience.

Other times I just get general anxiety for no reason, so there is nothing it’s connected to, it is everything.

Though about half of the things I have OCD and intrusive thoughts about are not fears or risks or doubts or questions at all. They’re simply things that disturb me that I’d rather never be aware of, and so when I am exposed to or reminded of them somehow, my disturbance creates intrusive thoughts / images of them or a need to physically get away from them if in the environment. There’s no question or meaning about them, I just feel sick about them or hate them (and I’m 100% certain of that), which causes intrusive thoughts/impressions.

Since those don’t fit the ‘Model’ and ‘Rules’ of ‘Proper OCD’ definitions of being about certainty and doubt and a doubting disorder, then I guess all those things are not OCD at all and are some other disorder that also causes intrusive thoughts and avoidance etc. that has no name and that I’m the only one who has it!

Just cause I’m the only one who has the disorder, doesn’t mean it doesn’t deserve a name! ;)

I guess my point though is that certainty is never a real need in order to get relief from a fear or doubt, only people sometimes THINK it is. It’s only a compulsion a lot of people are drawn to just like rumination (and not everyone has the same compulsions, so not everyone seeks certainty). And ask those who have recovered from OCD or from a type of OCD if they now have certainty over that topic or question and they’ll tell you no. Like most things in life, they still have just as much uncertainty about them, though it just doesn’t bother them anymore cause there is no false threat feelings. You also have to remember that the feeling of certainty is only a feeling. Certainty is not an objective fact or knowledge, it’s a mental sensation.

Edited by ADD
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Also, the proof that it’s not uncertainity in itself that people have a problem with, is that they are not neutral in their ‘quest’ for this truth. They’re not just obsessed with knowing the truth about something and don’t care what the answer is as long as it’s the truth and there is certainity of it. The simple not knowing drives them crazy. Instead, they have a predefined answer that they simply want confirmation of to feel alright. They’re not searching for the truth, they’re just wishing what they want is the truth, that they’ll get the answer they are hoping for. If they got the ‘certainty’ that they think they need, though it was the opposite answer they wanted it to be and would accept, would that end their pain and rumination cause now they no longer have the terrible uncertainty that they couldn’t tolerate and are satisfied to have an answer? Uhhhh…. no! Very likely they would freak out even more and try to throw it back into question and uncertainty by second guessing it and asking everyone they knew and whatever sources they could find for any doubt that maybe it isn’t true. Now suddenly they’d prefer doubt and uncertainty as long as it moved the answer towards what they want.

So was it ever uncertainty or just an attachment (understandable ones) to things being a certain way and not feeling in danger of them not being that way or at risk?

In any sort of danger or preceived danger, of course the first instinct and natural thing to do is to get out of the preceived danger and then to ensure that you are really out of that danger before you let your guard down again. Even in a primitive setting if you’re chased by a lion and run and hide up a tree, you’re not going to go back down until you feel certain that the lion is gone and has moved on and is not stalking you. So then you can’t tolerate the uncertainty that the lion might still be nearby waiting for you, or you’re simply protecting yourself and making certain you’re out of danger and being safe about it.

What’s the difference? Seeking evidence that a danger is not a threat anymore is what happens in every instance of feeling under threat and not relaxing until you get confirmation that the threat is gone.

It’s only that in the case of OCD, the perceived dangers are usually always a distortion of perception or don’t exist, or things that could never be predicted or safe guarded against or are unknowable. So they can’t get confirmation that the threat is gone and remain in the fight/flight looking for the impossible!

Though why do they get these false distortions in perception of danger or about unlikely or unknowable things?

Everything in the future is obviously uncertain cause it hasn't happened yet! We're alright with that in most cases cause we have faith. Faith things will likely be alright, faith the driver speeding towards us in the other lane won't serve into our lane and will obey the rules of the road. And we don't think about these things. We don't know what we don't know.

What causes the doubt and distress is the obsessing itself. Sure it might start with a random thought or idea or something. Though then obsessing and ruminating about the possibilities of anything will always stir up great doubts about it and make it feel more likely. Doubts and possibilities that were always there, about anything and everything, you just didn't think about them. Thinking deeply about them, obsessing and questioning them is what CREATES the feelings of doubts in the first place. You're CREATING the very problem of doubt in your mind by obsessing and then you try to SOLVE it and get rid of the doubt by the very same process that created it in the first place? Good luck with that!

"You can't solve a problem using the same level of thinking that created it." Einstein

Like I said, certainty, this elusive certainty feeling that you chase, is elusive precisely cause it is nothing more than a feeling! Certainty is not a fact. It's not objective knowledge. It is only a mental sensation. Sure the feeling is usually activated most of the time through observable facts and information. Though not always. Certainly not when you lack faith and keep obsessing on possibilities of things. You’re just chasing a mental sensation and you can't get it by anxiously chasing it. Anxiety is the opposite of faith, the faith needed to feel certain about anything. So anxiety chases it away and creates more doubt feelings, less certainty/faith feelings. So how is the anxiety of getting rid of the anxiety going to bring something that the state of anxiety could never achieve? Think about it...

Edited by ADD
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