Could someone offer clarification...

[Guest HeadAboveWater]

I am currently reading (and working) on my OCD workbook called ''The Mindfulness Workbook for OCD''. In one of the chapters there is a paragraph that is quite confusing to me because I'm not exactly sure how it is true. The chapter is called ''The Brain, the Mind, and You''.... basically it establishes an idea of how there are three separate entities involved in our reality.

The paragraph that is confusing me says, ''You are the one who goes by your name and the one watching what the mind is doing with the data it receives. You are your ''being'', your person. Most of us have great difficulty separating ourselves from the mind. If the mind is analyzing the meaning of a thought, then it seems as if we are personally responsible for that analysis.''

Could someone clarify what this means... especially is correlation with OCD. (Maybe this is a very dumb question but I just wanted to understand it better). So, if someone understands and can explain this, I would be very grateful.

Edited December 7, 2014 by HeadAboveWater

[Guest Orwell1984]

It means that we 'are' the conscious awareness of our experience. We are the watching part. We can observe what our brain is doing. We can separate from our thoughts and actions and choose to buy into the thoughts or choose to go ahead with the actions or not. Whereas look at a baby or most animals- they are never able to assess their experience, they are always automatically thinking and doing (so far as scientists have deemed anyway). Animals and babies don't assess what is internally going on. They just respond and react spontaneously to whatever is motivating them.

[OCD_Guy_UK]

I am currently reading (and working) on my OCD workbook called ''The Mindfulness Workbook for OCD''. In one of the chapters there is a paragraph that is quite confusing to me because I'm not exactly sure how it is true. The chapter is called ''The Brain, the Mind, and You''.... basically it establishes an idea of how there are three separate entities involved in our reality.

The paragraph that is confusing me says, ''You are the one who goes by your name and the one watching what the mind is doing with the data it receives. You are your ''being'', your person. Most of us have great difficulty separating ourselves from the mind. If the mind is analyzing the meaning of a thought, then it seems as if we are personally responsible for that analysis.''

Could someone clarify what this means... especially is correlation with OCD. (Maybe this is a very dumb question but I just wanted to understand it better). So, if someone understands and can explain this, I would be very grateful.

Blimey, I brought that book for Kindle yesterday! Looks very good

I've a reasonable understanding of mindfulness from experience so I "get" what it says but even I still need to really think about it to "truly" appreciate and understand it. Some of these things you may not "get" on 1st, 2nd or several readings. You may have to seek examples from other sources. Eventually though something will "click" and you'll go "Ah-ha"

[Guest HeadAboveWater]

Do you mean that...

We have thoughts and feelings constantly and some we are aware of and others we are not. Sometimes our minds will have thoughts that we see also as ourselves and other times our minds will have thoughts that we don't see as ourselves.

For instance, our mind will come up with the thought, ''I have to go to work'' and we will recognize it as reality. Other times, our minds will come up with the thought, ''I am a bird'' and we won't recognize it as reality?

[dksea]

My understanding of this is to help us recognize the difference between the part of or minds that is our "self" and the part that is like any other organ and operates basically on auto-pilot. It's easier of course to separate our selves from things like our heart or lungs, less so with our brains.

One of the biggest struggles we have as OCD suffered is the difficulty of accepting that a thought that happens doesn't mean we want it to or that it has some deep meaning behind it. we know from our own experiences that we have thoughts all the time that we do t get stuck on. We know from the experiences of our fellow sufferers that people with OCD don't even get stuck on the same thought. And we know from studies that have been done that pretty much everyone gets the same type of unwanted unpleasant thoughts that OCD sufferers get stuck on. All of which shows that the problem isn't that we have these thoughts, but how we process them and assign meaning to them.

[gingerbreadgirl]

I personally have always found this idea of separation of mind and brain hard to swallow... We are our brains. There is no "ghost in the machine". However I think it's a metaphor for the idea that we have a part of the brain that is able to observe what is going on elsewhere, and this is where we feel we have free will. We can consciously separate ourselves from what's going on and observe it as if from the corner of a room. This idea has really helped me - I find it easier to say " oh look, I'm experiencing an OCD obsession" and feel quite detached from it.

[LizzyHoy]

I like dksea's analogy, given what I know about mindfulness I assume that's what it's getting at.

I have just asked my boyfriend who is an expert on Philosophy and apparently that paragraph doesn't really make sense(!) He said you could interpret it as the notion that our 'selves' and values, personality etc. is fairly constant over our lives, but at times we have thoughts that don't fit with ourselves. As people above have said, healthy people tend to dismiss those thoughts easily, whereas OCD causes us to attach too much importance to them.

[dksea]

I like to think of it along the lines of breathing. If I want I can choose to breathe in and out, just like I can choose to think about something. But my brain also can make me breathe without having to consciously think about it, just like my brain can create thoughts without me choosing to think about them.

Perhaps an even even better comparison would be Parkinson's disease. Normally people choose whether to move or not, just like normally we choose whether to dismiss a thought or not. With Parkinson's, defects in the brain cause issues with muscle control, leading to unwanted, involuntary movements. With OCD, defects in the brain cause issues with thought control, leading to unwanted, involuntary anxiety about thoughts.

[Guest HeadAboveWater]

My understanding of this is to help us recognize the difference between the part of or minds that is our "self" and the part that is like any other organ and operates basically on auto-pilot. It's easier of course to separate our selves from things like our heart or lungs, less so with our brains.

One of the biggest struggles we have as OCD suffered is the difficulty of accepting that a thought that happens doesn't mean we want it to or that it has some deep meaning behind it. we know from our own experiences that we have thoughts all the time that we do t get stuck on. We know from the experiences of our fellow sufferers that people with OCD don't even get stuck on the same thought. And we know from studies that have been done that pretty much everyone gets the same type of unwanted unpleasant thoughts that OCD sufferers get stuck on. All of which shows that the problem isn't that we have these thoughts, but how we process them and assign meaning to them.

But then if our ''mind'' is having a thought and we feel as if it is true and also get anxiety, disturbed and fear - this would be a thought that does not align with our ''true selves'' but rather a sign of an OCD thought.

For instance, a person without OCD - His ''mind'' has a thought that maybe he is a serial killer. This comes across to him as a strange and absurd thought because he ''himself'' does not feel it to be true. Therefore, with clarity he can leave the thought behind him.

Then, a person with OCD - His ''mind'' has a thought that maybe he is a serial killer. This comes across feeling true or real... and although, there is doubt and anxiety, he cannot figure out if this is in line with his ''true self''. Therefore, the thought sticks and begins to become an obsession.

Would you say this is how it works?

Edited December 8, 2014 by HeadAboveWater

[LizzyHoy]

That sounds about right.

We tend to experience excessive feelings of threat - these thoughts are dismissed by healthy people, but we attach too much meaning to them and become very anxious. Also in my understanding sometimes our brains produce a signal saying that there's a threat, then OCD attributes a cause to that threat (so it's the wrong way around). E.g. I'm anxious, therefore something must be wrong.

[Guest Orwell1984]

This would be hell for people with multiple personality disorder. It would be the brain form of 'inception'.

[dksea]

But then if our ''mind'' is having a thought and we feel as if it is true and also get anxiety, disturbed and fear - this would be a thought that does not align with our ''true selves'' but rather a sign of an OCD thought.

For instance, a person without OCD - His ''mind'' has a thought that maybe he is a serial killer. This comes across to him as a strange and absurd thought because he ''himself'' does not feel it to be true. Therefore, with clarity he can leave the thought behind him.

Then, a person with OCD - His ''mind'' has a thought that maybe he is a serial killer. This comes across feeling true or real... and although, there is doubt and anxiety, he cannot figure out if this is in line with his ''true self''. Therefore, the thought sticks and begins to become an obsession.

Would you say this is how it works?

From my understanding the cause and effect is flipped. Basically the OCD and non-OCD person can both have the same thought, the difference is that for the non-OCD sufferer the thought is processed quickly and easily, whereas in the OCD sufferer, the thought gets stuck because the sufferers brain doesn't trigger the "ok it's a meaningless thought you can relax" signal. Because the thought gets stuck we start to ascribe more meaning to it. It's not that we don't know that the thought isn't in line wit our true self, we do know, that's what causes the conflict and depending anxiety, it's that even though we know, we can't make it just go away.

If it were the other way around, that feeling anxiety causes a thought to stick, then everyone would get OCD, because certainly everyone (or at least most people) would feel anxiety over awful things like harming loved ones, or getting sick. Instead it's the fact that the thoughts stay stuck which leads to anxiety

[Guest HeadAboveWater]

From my understanding the cause and effect is flipped. Basically the OCD and non-OCD person can both have the same thought, the difference is that for the non-OCD sufferer the thought is processed quickly and easily, whereas in the OCD sufferer, the thought gets stuck because the sufferers brain doesn't trigger the "ok it's a meaningless thought you can relax" signal. Because the thought gets stuck we start to ascribe more meaning to it. It's not that we don't know that the thought isn't in line wit our true self, we do know, that's what causes the conflict and depending anxiety, it's that even though we know, we can't make it just go away.

If it were the other way around, that feeling anxiety causes a thought to stick, then everyone would get OCD, because certainly everyone (or at least most people) would feel anxiety over awful things like harming loved ones, or getting sick. Instead it's the fact that the thoughts stay stuck which leads to anxiety

But.... what about the doubt? I thought the thoughts get stuck because of doubt. Like, an OCD sufferer has a thought and it gets stuck (because of whatever reason, perhaps because it is a disturbing thought or threatens us in some way) then we begin to doubt whether it says something true about us or our environment or not. Isn't that right?

Edited December 9, 2014 by HeadAboveWater

[Guest Tricia]

I think it's the fact that the thoughts get stuck that cause the doubt. When a thought remains so intense, it leads us to put so much meaning to it.

I recall, forty years ago, standing near the edge of a railway platform when I suddenly became convinced I'd jump in front of a train (only recently have I heard that many people without OCD have such bizarre thoughts, but they are fleeting because they are able to dismiss them as nonsensical). I moved to the back of the platform and when the train arrived I became convinced I'd run forward and push a stranger in front of the train. Because the thought had become stuck, I spent the next few months believing I was at some point going to lose control and become a cold-blooded killer.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Tricia

[dksea]

As I understand it, it works something like this:

Our brains are constantly processing data, automatically in the background, and from time to time forewards some of it to our conscious minds. There is a part (or parts) of the brain that is supposed to act as a sort of gate keeper, checking the thoughts to make sure only the important meaningful ones get through.

Lets take the thought Tricia just mentioned "what if I jump in front of the train". If a person without OCD encounters that thought the process goes something like this:

Brain: "Huh, I just had a thought that I could jump in front of a train, that seems rather serious. Should I worry about it? Well looking at the evidence, I think the odds are pretty low that I'd ever do that so no, no need t worry, it was just a passing image." And the brain moves on the next thought. Wash rinse repeat. Fortunately for most people this process is pretty automatic and works well.

So what goes wrong for a person with OCD? Well if you go back you'll notice that I had the brain say "the odds are pretty low" and not something like "nope no chance". That was very intentional. The reality of our world is that there is no such thing as 100% certainty. That may seem scary at first, but the thing is life shows us that we don't actually need 100% certainty. Think about it for a second, every day when you leave your house there is a possibility that you could be hit by a meteorite falling from the sky. So why don't we hide inside where it's safe? Well for one there's all sorts of things that can happen inside too of course, but more importantly we, as human beings, can evaluate risk versus reward. The risk is that we could be killed by a rock from space, the reward is that we get to live our lives. Since the risk is so astronomicaly low (pun intended) and the reward reasonable high, we take the chance. We are sure ENOUGH that a particular bad thing is unlikely to happen that we act as if it's not going to happen.

Anyway back to what's wrong for us OCDers. Inside our brain there is some sort of functionality for measuring doubt. When we remove enough doubt, a single is sent that tells us it's ok to move on. When a normal person has the "I might step in front of a train" thought, as soon as the brain gets enough information that the level of doubt is low enough, it basically flips a switch and can move on. The problem for OCD sufferers appears to be, at least in part, that that switch doesn't get properly flipped. The threshold for feeling "ok" is set so incredibly high, that we don't get that "ok" signal. As a result, even when we intellectualy and logically know something is extremely unlikely we still feel the doubt. It's not that there isn't enough information to suggest we don't need to worry anymore, it's that the triggering mechanism to turn off the worrying is broken.

And so, because we cant stop feeling doubt about a particular thought, we can't let it go, it eats stuck, it becomes an obsessive thought. And since it is a negative thought, it causes us distress and anxiety. Moreover, because it won't go away like a normal thought, because it doesn't operate as we expect it to, it's leads to more distress and doubt. We fall in to the trap of thinking that because the thought is stuck it must have meaning, why would we keep having this thought I'd it was unimportant. It becomes a cycle, feeding in to itself. Doubt leads to anxiety, which leads to more doubt, which leads to more anxiety. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Rather long, so I apologize, but hope it makes sense.

Edited December 10, 2014 by dksea

[dksea]

@Tricia - I had a similar experience about 6 or so years ago, except it was in my own home when I opened a drawer in the kitchen and saw a knife. Suddenly I had a thought about losing control and cutting myself with it. I got so afraid that I drove myself to the local emergency room. It was absolutely terrifying, and shows the affect OCD can have on us. Even though I had no desire to harm myself, and could keep telling myself that, the OCD meant that I continued to feel doubt about it. That was when I really started getting in to CBT and it made a huge difference!

[gingerbreadgirl]

What a great explanation of OCD, dksea, thank you

[Guest HeadAboveWater]

That makes sense, dksea. Thank you for explaining it. Whenever someone can explain it in an easily understandable way it really helps me! So I appreciate it!!

[Guest ADD]

Anyway back to what's wrong for us OCDers. Inside our brain there is some sort of functionality for measuring doubt. When we remove enough doubt, a single is sent that tells us it's ok to move on. When a normal person has the "I might step in front of a train" thought, as soon as the brain gets enough information that the level of doubt is low enough, it basically flips a switch and can move on. The problem for OCD sufferers appears to be, at least in part, that that switch doesn't get properly flipped. The threshold for feeling "ok" is set so incredibly high, that we don't get that "ok" signal. As a result, even when we intellectualy and logically know something is extremely unlikely we still feel the doubt. It's not that there isn't enough information to suggest we don't need to worry anymore, it's that the triggering mechanism to turn off the worrying is broken.

And so, because we cant stop feeling doubt about a particular thought, we can't let it go, it eats stuck, it becomes an obsessive thought. And since it is a negative thought, it causes us distress and anxiety. Moreover, because it won't go away like a normal thought, because it doesn't operate as we expect it to, it's leads to more distress and doubt. We fall in to the trap of thinking that because the thought is stuck it must have meaning, why would we keep having this thought I'd it was unimportant. It becomes a cycle, feeding in to itself. Doubt leads to anxiety, which leads to more doubt, which leads to more anxiety. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Rather long, so I apologize, but hope it makes sense.

If I get a thought that I might jump in front of the train or even get pushed off the platform by the crowd of busy pushy people, the doubt is low and I move on. So does that make a "normal person"?

If this is so true, then why don't we doubt and obsess over everything?

I don't even ever get fears or doubts about the physical world that often. At least not ones that my brain doesn't dismiss and move on from like normal people.

I only get disturbed by things. Either things my brain presents me intrusively, or memories, or things I hear or see in the world around me, etc. Then the thoughts get stuck cause I react in feeling repulsion and resistance to them, giving them energy and attention.

The only doubts I feel is that the thoughts won't leave or are going to haunt me forever or get stuck to other thoughts or subjects! Those doubts almost always have proven to be true! Haunted and reactivated for years indefinitely.

So does that mean I don't have OCD and am normal?

[dksea]

@ADD - We don't know at this point why people with OCD don't feel anxiety about all possible situations, why certain thoughts trigger anxiety in one individual and not others. Whatever the reason is, whether we ever understand why or not, the reality is that's just how OCD works. If you experience the symptoms of OCD, regardless of whether it's about only some of your thoughts, even if it's just one or two, then you have OCD. Having OCD doesn't require that you feel it's symptoms 100% of the time anymore than having asthma requires you to have trouble breathing 100% of the time. I use that as an example because I have asthma. Most of the time I have no trouble breathing, but sometimes I am affected in a way that most other people never will be.

Some people with OCD only worry about certain few things, others worry about a wider variety of things, and for many of us what we worry about changes over time. I can't diagnose you officially but if you experience symptoms of OCD, then you have OCD.

[taurean]

I think The basic idea of the workbook (which I also have ) is that when we are disturbed my an anxiety disorder our brain is using the active doing part - being obsessed ruminating forming rituals etc. which is at odds with the mindful state of being.

So there is a variance between that mindful state, and the anxiety disorder.

The gameplan is therefore a therapy to seek to return us back to the mindful state. Understanding what is happening in the brain, ERP and mindful detachment (which Gingerbreadgirl and I find helpful) are part of that.

[Guest ADD]

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Edited January 26, 2015 by ADD

[taurean]

Hi ADD

I am onlyplaying out what I think the workbook is about. I've ducked out of it now because it wanted to take me back down ERP and that wasn't a great success for me.

Edited January 26, 2015 by taurean