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We can only offer opinions!!


Guest It'sOnlyNatural

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Guest It'sOnlyNatural

Hi,

I feel like this forum is so helpful and brilliant and OCD UK is an amazing charity...wouldn't dream of complaining at all!

However, just from my personal experience, I feel like people on here can tend to post with 'authority' despite most (maybe none?) of us having medical training to an extent where we can say these things for certain. It should be about support, encouragement and where appropriate, advice based on experience.

I mean, I think with forums where there are obviously ill people at various stages of recovery, you are bound to see posts where people are a) in the throws of anxiety and not thinking clearly and b) recovering well and frustrated at those who are not.

I feel as though some people who have recovered well feel like they have all the answers - which is possibly not true? Advice from the perspective of recovery is great of course! But I think it's important to remember that one person's recovery is going to be different to another's.

Sometimes people give sound, relevant advice on these forums which is then criticised or contradicted by others. All I'm saying is that these are both just opinions!

I hope I've made sense...and I am not in any way complaining - after all it's good to have a range of perspectives here. But just remember that OCD is an actual illness - not necessarily something to be generalised or compartmentalised.

Again, this is all just my opinion!! :) And thank you everyone on here for being so supportive and especially the members/admin for your amazing work x

Edited by It'sOnlyNatural
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Absolutely we can only post with opinions, we are not medically trained but that does not mean we can't post facts too. But here's the thing, many people on here have been there, done that and wore the t-shirt. Some of us have helped on the forum for 10+ years, and been involved in support groups etc. The forum us full of people who have dealt with OCD for many years and are now coming through the other side, some close to being recovered. Some not quite there but well on the road of that long journey.

So if I was new to OCD I know whose advice I would be taking on board, all of the above.

Ultimately, people can take the advice or not, but if users are not going to listen to people who are winning the battle, you are doing yourself a disservice.

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Sometimes people give sound, relevant advice on these forums which is then criticised or contradicted by others. All I'm saying is that these are both just

Just because someone posts sound advice does not mean it is 100% correct, and should not be challenged if there is even better advice.

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Guest It'sOnlyNatural

I agree - some of the best advice I've been given is from people who have had experience with recovery and helping others and so on.

And challenging advice is important too!

I think my point was more that it can be quite negative to pick apart the posts of those who are not yet at that stage of recovery.

I feel maybe the problem comes when people are posting when they are experiencing strong anxiety. Naturally the posts are going to be a little irrational and I can see how people who have recovered could be frustrated by people who are still unwell. But sometimes all that happens is one person tells the other person "they're not doing it right", thus fueling the negative feelings they are experiencing. Maybe better to encourage the positive steps thay they are already taking rather than pointing out what they're doing wrong?

It's difficult I know - because of course people need to know what they need to change in order to get better...

I was actually wondering about the effects of 'tough love' in CBT - all I know is it never seems to work for me, but I have heard that it helps for some :)

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Guest doris

yeah it's all just opinions on here--advice from people's own experience. I think we all come with our biases--what's worked for us, what hasn't...there can be some pretty passionate debates on here--where people can get pretty strong about expressing their ideas. For myself, I try to partake in discussions that I find useful and try and leave the rest out. I've had really excellent advice on here, from sufferers and non-sufferers alike.

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I think my point was more that it can be quite negative to pick apart the posts of those who are not yet at that stage of recovery.

I feel maybe the problem comes when people are posting when they are experiencing strong anxiety. Naturally the posts are going to be a little irrational and I can see how people who have recovered could be frustrated by people who are still unwell.

It's a fair point and something I have been conscious of myself (and I think Caramoole spoke to me about too) and perhaps I still need to work harder at. I think generally though with new users I believe we do generally adopt a gentle informative approach.

But with users who we have tried that with time and time again, sometimes we do try and adopt a firmer approach (and with some users, it's actually worked).

But the fact remains if someone is doing something wrong we have a duty to tell them, because if we don't we are simply not helping them. But, I take on board your point and we should all try and adopt a gentler way of getting the point across.

Thank you for raising. :)

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sometimes all that happens is one person tells the other person "they're not doing it right", thus fueling the negative feelings they are experiencing. Maybe better to encourage the positive steps thay they are already taking rather than pointing out what they're doing wrong?

The 'sandwich approach' works well for any advice or feedback. It's particularly useful for giving good news and bad news in a constructive way.

Say something that shows you've listened carefully (read what was posted)

Say the meaty bit that needs to be said

Say something encouraging to finish.

I agree that simply saying 'you're doing it wrong' isn't helpful, but from what I read on the forum most people do try to follow up with constructive advice on alternative ways to do things that won't fuel the person's OCD.

I think the kick up the butt approach or 'tough love' has it's place, but is usually best reserved for those people whom you've interacted with over time and got a gut feel for their underlying attitude so you can predict how they'll take it and whether it's warranted or not.

Never kick a stranger's butt if you can help it. (Probably good advice for life in general too!) :laugh:

When a push in the right direction is required the trick is to be constructive about it, never judgemental.

If we always assume the person is doing the best they can based on what they know we're unlikely to cause offence or make them feel more negative about themselves through offering opinions or advice.

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Again, good points from Snowbear. It's also worth pointing out that some casual viewers of the forum will see one or two bits of interaction, but may not be aware of the 100s of other bits of interaction with a user prior to that, so may not always be aware of the bigger picture.

99% of people that come here do so because they want the good advice, even if it is challenging. It's the same with therapy, if CBT is not slightly anxiety provoking and challenging then it is pointless. It's also worth noting that there is a small number of people perhaps less than 1% who come here to be told they're wrong way of dealing with OCD is the right way, and will fight suggestions that the wrong approach is in fact wrong. Hopefully over time we can help those people by hammering home the right advice.

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It should be about support, encouragement and where appropriate, advice based on experience.

I truly think that this is the case on this wonderful forum in probably 95%+ of posts. People are generally genuine and respectful and the moderators keep an eye on things to keep us all safe.

I think most people on this forum do appreciate that these are forum users' and members' opinions and experiences. I also think that most people take a gentle approach. We are all potentially vulnerable and, whilst we do not necessarily need to be treated with kid gloves, we do need a gentle approach and respect.....and I think this happens most of the time.

I like the discussions and debates on here - these challenge people to look at facts and make clear their own opinions and points as well as making the effort to understand what others are saying. I think debate is important - we may not always agree with others' opinions/views but these debates further our own thinking and understanding. We can't all agree all the time and, as all of us are different, there are not always 'absolute truths' because we respond in different ways to different treatments and meds.

I like the fact that people put links to articles which can give us information and so on.

This forum has been a Godsend to me over the years and I am lucky to have made friends on this site.

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I feel like people on here can tend to post with 'authority' despite most (maybe none?) of us having medical training to an extent where we can say these things for certain

I feel as though perhaps I should don my tin hat before I post this but will anyway.

Whilst the above is correct, that none of us have medical training........sadly, even in 2016, there are those even with medical training (and that includes some Psychiatrists, GP's, CBT Therapists, CPN's) who have very little knowledge about OCD [in all its forms] or it's treatment. That may seem shocking but is true. Many willl know a little about hand washing (contamination), checking and the well-known types....but not a lot more. There are those on the forum like Ashley and several other long term sufferers, whose knowledge and advice is going to be far more helpful to recovery. They have had a lot of experience of the condition, been through many pitfalls, made many mistakes, read libraries full of OCD material, mixed with OCD specialists and they do have an excellent level of knowledge.

I appreciate that sometimes those newer to the condition may think the advice is tough, they may feel that they need to be reassured and they can feel cross when the advice they want isn't the advice people give. That doesn't mean the advice isn't the right advice, it generally is.

Also as Ashley points out

It's also worth pointing out that some casual viewers of the forum will see one or two bits of interaction, but may not be aware of the 100s of other bits of interaction with a user prior to that, so may not always be aware of the bigger picture.

I think that's a valid point as well.

Overall, I think we generally get the balance fairly right.....hence we have people who have been with us for many years. We haven't managed to frighten them away yet :)

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I feel as though perhaps I should don my tin hat before I post this but will anyway.

Whilst the above is correct, that none of us have medical training........sadly, even in 2016, there are those even with medical training (and that includes some Psychiatrists, GP's, CBT Therapists, CPN's) who have very little knowledge about OCD [in all its forms] or it's treatment. That may seem shocking but is true. Many willl know a little about hand washing (contamination), checking and the well-known types....but not a lot more. There are those on the forum like Ashley and several other long term sufferers, whose knowledge and advice is going to be far more helpful to recovery. They have had a lot of experience of the condition, been through many pitfalls, made many mistakes, read libraries full of OCD material, mixed with OCD specialists and they do have an excellent level of knowledge.

I appreciate that sometimes those newer to the condition may think the advice is tough, they may feel that they need to be reassured and they can feel cross when the advice they want isn't the advice people give. That doesn't mean the advice isn't the right advice, it generally is.

Also as Ashley points out

I think that's a valid point as well.

Overall, I think we generally get the balance fairly right.....hence we have people who have been with us for many years. We haven't managed to frighten them away yet :)

I agree. I think people want others to give sympathy and treat them with kid gloves, well that wont help them get better. Some people on here have had OCD for decades and been through all kinds of treatment, they know how the beheading of the monster goes. It can be frustrating when people don't see things your way but that isn't you being frustrated its the OCD. I think a lot of the objection to the advice is born out of a need for reassurance.

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Guest It'sOnlyNatural

Phili - I actually agree, and indeed see that behavior in myself! I mean, I know I come on here for reassurance sometimes, and can get frustrated when that's not what I get (I am also very grateful for everyone on this forum for not giving reassurance as I know it's in my best interest!).

Ashley - it's a very good point you raise about the posts people make being based on a lot of prior interaction that others don't necessarily know about. I guess that makes a lot of sense - if you know someone's habits, i.e. reassurance seeking, then you know what type of advice to give them and so on ;)

Caramoole - It's very true, I have had experience myself of that (when I had CBT almost all the focus was on my hand washing compulsions and the rest was pretty much ignored....hence the more 'subtle' obsessions/compulsions still remaining now). I think that is something that OCD-UK does so well - making sure information is out there for those who can't find it anywhere else. However, I also think we have to be wary when giving advice based on posts on a forum...it's great in so many ways, but perhaps sometimes we run the risk of giving generalized advice before the full context is known (for example, for me the 'tough love' approach is particularly difficult because I have also had issues around social anxiety and self esteem). That's just me - I know everyone is different!

I suppose my only real point is that, as with most things in life (and certainly with OCD) nothing is black and white. So saying something is the 'right' or 'wrong' way to deal with a problem is, by definition, not going to be the case for everyone. However, like Ashley says, if you know the person you are replying to then this is less of a problem :)

I don't know really....these are all just my thoughts. I agree entirely with everyone above that these forums are pretty much awesome and honestly I have been helped by anyone who has ever replied to me :) x

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I think you will generally find that,given any active forum member can join the discussion on a thread, overall where someone is way offline with their suggestions, sager ones and/or moderators will say so.

Edited by taurean
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Guest BonfireDog

This is an interesting discussion. When I first joined this forum, I was already on the way to coping with my OCD, though I was going through big changes in my life and wanted to have somewhere to put my thoughts where those like me would listen. I now post a lot more in those topics that 'active sufferers' have begun, and try to offer clear, firm and friendly advice with reference to my own experience. I think this is because I spent many years (8+) in misery with my OCD not even knowing what it was. And even when I knew what it was, it was sometimes very hard to get fellow sufferers to come out and say 'I went through that as well; it will be okay'.

I remember being in a group therapy session for the first time a few years ago; I was very nervous to say anything out loud, because I was sure that I would be told '...ew. That's not OCD. You're just a bad person'. But I remember speaking to this lovely woman in the break in which I revealed something that had been my secret, my shame, for so many years. She laughed, her eyes widened and she said 'Oh my god, me too! Isn't it just horrible!'. Then she laughed again and made herself a coffee and took a biscuit. She was a perfectly nice, decent and normal person, and had shared my experiences. Though I suppose it was a form of reassurance (and reassurance, I have learnt, is something that it is so tempting to give, and which comes in many forms) it gave me the confidence, the strength, to know that what I had was an illness, not a moral failing. It set me on the path. Thank you, nice lady!

And so that is what I try to do now; let people know that what they are going through is an illness that can be managed, in the hope that this will minimise the amount of time they spend fruitlessly worrying that what they are feeling comes from somewhere else.

In terms of the dangers of giving advice that is only specific to me, and not to them, I'm not sure I agree. I try obviously not to proscribe in terms of their specific manifestation, especially if I have not experienced it myself (such as cleanliness OCD) but it is my belief that the form of your OCD is less important than the fact of it. Different obsessions and compulsions come from a common pool, and are all forms of the same illness. While I would not tell somebody who worried about being blasphemous, for example, how to curb that specifically, I would tell them that it is OCD, like mine, and while their path to recovery might not be the same as mine, it is there nonetheless.

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I think there are some very good points on here , some of the so called psychiatrists and community mental health nurses I have seen know nothing about ocd except to assume it just washing your hands o cleaning a lot , which is of course just a tiny spectrum of this disorder

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Guest doris

This is an interesting discussion. When I first joined this forum, I was already on the way to coping with my OCD, though I was going through big changes in my life and wanted to have somewhere to put my thoughts where those like me would listen. I now post a lot more in those topics that 'active sufferers' have begun, and try to offer clear, firm and friendly advice with reference to my own experience. I think this is because I spent many years (8+) in misery with my OCD not even knowing what it was. And even when I knew what it was, it was sometimes very hard to get fellow sufferers to come out and say 'I went through that as well; it will be okay'.

I remember being in a group therapy session for the first time a few years ago; I was very nervous to say anything out loud, because I was sure that I would be told '...ew. That's not OCD. You're just a bad person'. But I remember speaking to this lovely woman in the break in which I revealed something that had been my secret, my shame, for so many years. She laughed, her eyes widened and she said 'Oh my god, me too! Isn't it just horrible!'. Then she laughed again and made herself a coffee and took a biscuit. She was a perfectly nice, decent and normal person, and had shared my experiences. Though I suppose it was a form of reassurance (and reassurance, I have learnt, is something that it is so tempting to give, and which comes in many forms) it gave me the confidence, the strength, to know that what I had was an illness, not a moral failing. It set me on the path. Thank you, nice lady!

And so that is what I try to do now; let people know that what they are going through is an illness that can be managed, in the hope that this will minimise the amount of time they spend fruitlessly worrying that what they are feeling comes from somewhere else.

In terms of the dangers of giving advice that is only specific to me, and not to them, I'm not sure I agree. I try obviously not to proscribe in terms of their specific manifestation, especially if I have not experienced it myself (such as cleanliness OCD) but it is my belief that the form of your OCD is less important than the fact of it. Different obsessions and compulsions come from a common pool, and are all forms of the same illness. While I would not tell somebody who worried about being blasphemous, for example, how to curb that specifically, I would tell them that it is OCD, like mine, and while their path to recovery might not be the same as mine, it is there nonetheless.

i really like this post, bonfire dog. I, too, found group therapy incredibly helpful and a lot of that help was from connecting with other sufferers. (mine wasn't even a group specific to ocd.) I think sufferers bring so much to the table just from the fact that they too have, or are still, suffering. I liked, too, that my psychiatrist and the other counsellors present at the group would really emphasize the idea that those of us who are suffering are experts in our own way because we, unlike many of the health professionals, actually understand the experience of mental illness from the inside.

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it is my belief that the form of your OCD is less important than the fact of it. Different obsessions and compulsions come from a common pool, and are all forms of the same illness.

This is a very important point.

When I first joined the forum I thought the reason I was stuck and unresponsive to therapy was because my OCD was different.

I thought the reason I wasn't getting better was because health professionals didn't quite get me, they didn't understand how my OCD worked.

I thought my OCD was unique in the experience of OCD, so no wonder they couldn't fix me.

In the decade since then I've learned three very important things:

1. My OCD is no different to anyone else's. My perception of the OCD symptoms made it unique to me, not the theme.

2. The theme of the OCD is irrelevant to understanding how it works and how to fix it.

3. Nobody else can fix it for you. We have to practise the CBT techniques and fix it for ourselves.

I don't think we need to understand the specifics of each person's thoughts, theme, or symptoms to be able to offer advice.

It's the same basic information, but because people express themselves differently something one person says may click while everybody else saying the same thing doesn't.

Even after ten years I'm still learning new (better) ways of saying things from reading other people's posts. :)

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Guest BonfireDog

This is a very important point.

When I first joined the forum I thought the reason I was stuck and unresponsive to therapy was because my OCD was different.

I thought the reason I wasn't getting better was because health professionals didn't quite get me, they didn't understand how my OCD worked.

I thought my OCD was unique in the experience of OCD, so no wonder they couldn't fix me.

In the decade since then I've learned three very important things:

1. My OCD is no different to anyone else's. My perception of the OCD symptoms made it unique to me, not the theme.

2. The theme of the OCD is irrelevant to understanding how it works and how to fix it.

3. Nobody else can fix it for you. We have to practise the CBT techniques and fix it for ourselves.

I don't think we need to understand the specifics of each person's thoughts, theme, or symptoms to be able to offer advice.

It's the same basic information, but because people express themselves differently something one person says may click while everybody else saying the same thing doesn't.

Even after ten years I'm still learning new (better) ways of saying things from reading other people's posts. :)

Yes, exactly! Recognising that you are not special in terms of a mental illness is an extremely reassuring thing!

I think you can see this point in looking at the posts that people who are really in the depths of something make on here; usually it is a long, unbroken paragraph of context, and then the same conclusions at the end; 'I am evil, I am bad, I will act on this'. Though I don't wish to sound flippant, that first paragraph is rarely useful to people offering advice; it may be useful to the sufferer in terms of allowing them to splurge and offload (I have done this many times), but in terms of moving forward, it's just the particular portal through which OCD has entered their lives. It's still as big and ugly as anybody else's.

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Spot on snowbear and bonfiredog.

When people just learn that the basics behind OCD are similar whatever its manifestation, and the meaning and interpretation of their theme plus resultant catastrophic thinking does not mean they are unique, then they can be comforted and start believing in the recovery process.

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Back in 2004/ early 2005 i discovered this forum and Caramooles advice and along with others was second to none.

The importance was i took on board that advice and walked the talk.

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Guest It'sOnlyNatural

Snowbear and Bonfiredog - very good points. I know that it's about addressing OCD and not the specific thoughts, as the thoughts are just what we make them when we add emotion to them whereas OCD itself is the same for everyone.

However, I was thinking in terms of issues outside of OCD - other factors and such. I don't know...just me speculating really ;)

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Snowbear and Bonfiredog - very good points. I know that it's about addressing OCD and not the specific thoughts, as the thoughts are just what we make them when we add emotion to them whereas OCD itself is the same for everyone.

However, I was thinking in terms of issues outside of OCD - other factors and such. I don't know...just me speculating really ;)

But we are an OCD support forum, run by an OCD charity :original: Edited by taurean
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I know that it's about addressing OCD and not the specific thoughts, as the thoughts are just what we make them when we add emotion to them whereas OCD itself is the same for everyone.

However, I was thinking in terms of issues outside of OCD - other factors and such.

You're right that we can't know someone's personal circumstances. (Even if they share details it's unlikely they'll paint the full picture or give an unbiased version of events from which a stranger could give useful advice.)

But in terms of understanding how OCD impacts on someone (whatever the circumstances) it comes down to simple basics again. Basics which are easily identified if you take a small step back from those specifics.

If someone is having a tough time coping does it matter whether the source of the stress they are living with is a messy and painful divorce, school exams, landlord issues, difficult neighbours, money worries...?

The simple answer is 'no!'

As with OCD themes we think we're unique because nobody else is living our exact life experiences. But being human is universal and something we all share: human emotional responses, human thinking, human reasoning, human pain, human coping methods and how we reach recovery.

You're right that it is best not to advise someone on the specifics of their life. (Should I leave my partner? Should I get a different job?) Those aren't questions we are able to answer since they depend upon the person's personal circumstances rather than their OCD.

Most people on the forum do, consciously and carefully, avoid giving such 'life advice'. When somebody does reply it is only their opinion.

Such opinions are a very different thing to making a well-judged and experienced comment regarding the OCD in order to point the person in the right direction for treatment and recovery.

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