Did Mozart have Tourettes

[Stephen]

Hi all

I was very interested to see an article in 'Metro' (London edition) suggesting that Mozart may have had Tourette's Syndrome. I'll try and post the article later as I don't have it to hand right now.

Stephen

[Guest harmony]

Yes I did see it, ch4 are doing the Documentary, I think it was Oct 14th or something.

[catherine]

Thanks Stephen

Yes, I did know about Mozart (only the best people have TS you know ). Actually there are quite a few famous people with TS and when I get a moment I'll check up on some of them. I'll tell you someone who I would bet my last penny on that he has Tourettes, and that's Gazza. I know he's recently 'admitted' to having OCD but I (and many others) think he is a classic TS/OCD sufferer. One very well known TS sufferer is the Man Utd goalkeeper, Tim Howard and he is quite involved in raising awareness of it. I think he is a relatively moderate sufferer, but it's good to have such successful people who have overcome their difficulties.

Thanks for the info

Catherine

[Stephen]

According to the article, the documentary 'What Made Mozart Tic?' will be screened on Channel 4 in October.

Incidentally the Channel 4 website seemed to have a very good article on TS http://www.channel4.com/health/microsites/..._tourettes.html - including the mention of the very common (around 10%) occurrence of 'transient tics' in children that get better - which might be helpful to Sylvia!

All the best

Stephen

[catherine]

Thanks Stephen

Re the link on 'transient tics' this is an issue which crops up regularly. Many parents are worried that their child has TS and are anxious to get a diagnosis and treatment. But one of the medical criteria for being diagnosed with TS is that the tics have to have been present for 12 months, hence it is not possible to 'diagnose' accurately prior to this. A year is a long time to experience uncertainty and lots of people ask about TS after just a few weeks or months. But the reality is most tics will turn out to be transient ie not TS and understandably GP's and specialists don't want to be drawn on a diagnosis too early for this reason.

I'll check out the Ch4 site myself, thanks again

Catherine :blushing:

[catherine]

Yes ittyk, it is absolutely true that a very few fortunate people do 'grow out' of their tics in early adulthood. Why I don't know, but if someone was ever able to find out 'the secret' then they'd make themselves very rich with drug co.'s I guess!! I also know of one lady in her 60's whose tics have very much diminished since she was about 50 but I think this is quite unusual. Early adulthood seems to be the critical time if a turnaround is going to occur.

Your family medical history sounds very interesting and I wonder have any specialists ever looked into it? :dry: My mum had Parkinson's disease which is associated with the chemical dopamine. This is the same chemical as is overproduced in Tourettes so that is my probable link.

Please God one day all this will be researched and solved, although it might just be a bit too late for us!!

Catherine

[catherine]

Hi ittyk

I have to say your family history is fascinating and I just wonder how you've got away with not being researched to death :grin: . I guess much depends on your dr. My OCD specialist is quite into research so has asked quite a bit about my family (although remarkably I'm the only one with TS/OCD). Even the perfectionists in your family are probably mildly obsessive!

Maybe Ashie will give you a bulk discount for family membership of ocd-uk

Catherine

[catherine]

Hi ittyk

You certainly have slipped through the net

The guy who diagnosed my Tourettes is Dr Hugh Rickards who runs a specialist clinic in Birmingham. He was literally my knight in shining armour and has been very kind to me and my family :lol: (I've been dying to use that smilie!). He helped get my TS under control and treated my OCD as far as he could. But after about 4 years he felt I needed to see someone who specialises in OCD, so referred me to Dr Naomi Fineberg in Herts and she is at the forefront of new treatments so I've been very lucky (if you know what I mean!). You may recognise their names because Ashie and I both thought they'd be very valuable as medical advisors to ocduk. Both are very research orientated, hence all the family dabbling.

As regards my mums Parkinsons, that is caused by an underproduction of the neurotransmitter, Dopamine, whilst Tourettes is associated with overproduction. Between us, mum and I probably had the right amount of dopamine :tongue: .Dopamine is essential for the neurological pathways and conduction of nerves and of course both conditons are characterised by involuntary movements. I guess that's a bit of an oversimplification, but I just find it a helpful way to associate the two. You may have found this yourself, but I know when we realised the link, poor mum felt really responsible and guilty for my condition. But hey, I wouldn't have swopped anything about my mum :lol:

Catherine

[catherine]

Couldn't agree more and I know my mum would have loved me to bits if I'd been born with two heads and quacked :lol:

If you ever want children of your own, you may want to seek genetic advice, although if you would have children regardless of any difficulties they may have, is there any point :lol: ? I know my sister was over 40 when she had her last child and she was put under pressure to have an amniocentisis to rule out Down's syndrome and she got quite upset. She refused to have the test because she said the child would be loved just the same, even if he/she had multiple disabilities.

I must add that I don't have children but this is purely because I've never met Mr Right (or Mr anyone for that matter ). But I'd love to have had them, OCD/TS or not :lol: .

Catherine

[Stephen]

Returning to the original topic on this thread, Radio 4's Today programme yesterday (Friday 15th October) had a piece on the Mozart and Tourette's thing. I didn't hear the whole thing, but there was a Tourette's sufferer on, talking about it.

I'll try and find the 'Listen Again' link and post it here (it will probably only be available today.

[Stephen]

OK sorry - the 'Listen Again' for Today programme is for today's (Saturday 16th October) programme. In fact the Tourette's feature might have actually been on Thursday - I can't remember!

Anyway, it was on.

All the best

Stephen

[Guest Kitty]

Queenie - Queen of the TV Guides has also just noticed that there's going to be a documentary on C4, Monday 18th October @9.00pm called 'What Made Mozart Tic?' which is supposed to be an in-depth look at the fact that Mozart had Tourette's.

Just wanted to let you all know!

Take care

*puts Radio Times away*

Luv Queenie

xx

[catherine]

Thanks for that info

I've copied the following line from the TSA site re a new documentary coming up soon

Just had word from Barnaby Peel Channel 5 that the latest TS documentary from the 'extrordinary people' series is to be shown on Ch 5 Monday 25th October at 9pm.

My Ch5 reception isn't brilliant but I'll be watching it anyway.

Catherine

[catherine]

I believe there's a programme about Mozart on Ch4 Monday 8pm if anyone is interested

[Guest Hypnosinc]

Having just watched the programme "What made Mozart Tic?", I was very impressed by the insights of the sufferer, but rather less on his assessment of Mozart. Whilst his evidence was compelling, I'm not sure it was really conclusive that Mozart had Tourette's.

Given that Mozart was tyrannised by his father as a child and probably never felt that he fulfilled his father's aspirations, that he developed a desire to shock, and lampoon the establishment, notably the Freemasons, and that he was often given to immature behaviour, just isn't sufficient evidence. I think one of the problems is our own desire to accept that if one or two symptoms fit the pattern we have a diagnosis, and then disregard anything else that doesn't fit the pattern.

To my mind, the psychologist that the young man visited was shown to be unconvincing. (I wonder how much was down to editing). She may well be the highest qualified in her field, but she did not, or was not shown to muster sufficient contrary evidence to support her own view that Mozart didn't have Tourette's. Ultimately I was left feeling that I learnt nothing to convince me either way.

As a programme about Tourette's, however, it was excellent, and the notion that the sufferer can use their own creative talents, albeit obsessionally, to push the Tourette's to the sidelines, would obviously have application for sufferers within the OCD spectrum, not just Tourette's.

[Guest polarprincess]

just noticed i missed a programme that was on tonight called 'what made Mozart tic' channel 4, 8pm.

Radio Times reads as follows;

'Could Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, one of history's most revered composers, have had tourette syndrome? James McConnel, a composer who has the condition, is on a quest to prove this theory. taking a voyage through the life and times of Mozart, McConnel illustrates how the illness made have compelled the composer to perform obssessively as a child and also fuelled his later works'

i wondered if anyone caught it, as i was elsewhere!

PPx

[Guest SallyB]

Hypnosinc,

I thought the programme was really good - I don't have experience of Tourette's so I don't know how accurate it was, but I learned a lot from the presenter's experience. I know that this was more of a documentary and I also didn't really know whether Mozart had tourette's but it felt that I had learned a lot by the end. I found it a lot more helpful than the Dirty Filthy Love programme.

Sally

[catherine]

Hi folks

Just to let you know I've now merged the two topics which were both discussing the documentary on Ch 4 about Mozart

[catherine]

Hi

I really enjoyed the doc on Mozart and that is very unusual for me, being a TS sufferer. I normally cringe just like I did during Dirty, Filthy Love which I didn't think was a patch on this programe (although I do realise they were each coming at the subject from different angles). I'm wondering Hypnosinc if you are referring to Prof Mary Robertson in your post? If so I thought she was incredibly disappointing and very vague/general in her responses. Believe it or not, until she recently retired, Prof Robertson was the person to be referred to at her TS clinic in London. Personally I was referred to Hugh Rickards who was also interviewed and he came over as much more human and seemed concerned with some of the related issues to TS such as depression and low self esteem. I have to say during the years he treated me, he was always the kindest and understanding medic I've ever met. He is also a lovely man who cares deeply :huh: . But Prof Robertson didn't have anything of substance to contribute :goof: .

I suppose I was interested in all the little quirks and eccentricities which were referred to and I have to say I could identify with them all . I was actually swayed by the presenter in that Mozart did have TS, although I felt he over analysed the music side somewhat. I wasn't convinced by the theory that the nature of his music mimiced his TS/OCD/ADHD. I think you can read too much into things.

In terms of educating people, I thought this was a far more realistic and meaningful way to impart info than D,F L. It was serious and non-sensationalist whilst at the same time hugely entertaining.

I thought the presenter was wrong to say there are worse things than TS and that he quite liked his own little mannerisms. I know from personal experience and from talking to many others with TS that it has the potential to devastate lives and families. OK maybe his TS was fairly mild, but he shouldn't assume everyone is like this and that it is not a big deal to live with TS. I have literally know people taken to the point of suicide and breakdown (myself included) because of their TS. It is an exhausting and totally debilitating condition. I have to say that remark really irritated me.

But a good informative programe I thought overall and it's a pity it was tucked away on Ch4.

Catherine

[Guest Hypnosinc]

Hi Catherine

Yes, I wish it had had a more mainstream showing.

I want to come back on the point about Mary Robertson. I'm afraid I feel, rightly or wrongly, that James McConnel had already made up his mind that Mozart did have Tourette's, and for that reason I suspect that Mary Robertson's contribution was probably hugely edited, and any stronger evidence she may have had to contribute was deleted. Could you go along with that? I don't know if that was the case, but I cannot believe that someone of her eminence would have been satisfied to let her argument go, on such inadequate evidence. So I wont criticise her for that.

I'm not sure either that it is fair to draw comparisons between that programme and DFL. The latter was a drama after all, and the truth is often a casualty when you are aiming for dramatic content.

[Ashley]

I'm not sure either that it is fair to draw comparisons between that programme and DFL. The latter was a drama after all, and the truth is often a casualty when you are aiming for dramatic content. 

17235[/snapback]

Yes, I was going to make that point too.

I just watched the documentary earlier today and I found it relatively informative but it was clear that many of the medical experts were not convinced if Mozart did have Tourette's.

I think the presenter wanted to believe he did so that he could draw comparisons between himself and Mozart.

I thought the presenter was wrong to say there are worse things than TS and that he quite liked his own little mannerisms. I know from personal experience and from talking to many others with TS that it has the potential to devastate lives and families.

17208[/snapback]

I would agree with you to a point that he should of balanced how TS can be very debilitating, but again like DFL this was not so much a documentary explaining what TS was, it was more about Mozart and TS. But like the presenter saying he did not mind having TS, I think you should accept that every sufferer can have TS or OCD for that matter and although they function relatively well their TS or OCD can still be very severe to them, its just that we all deal with things differently so I don’t think there is a mild or bad case, its all bad, just some people deal with things differently. Hope that makes sense.

[Guest polarprincess]

sounds like i missed a good programme, did you say you taped it ash???

[Stephen]

Yes I saw this programme too and thought it was excellent. A contrast in a way to Dirty Filthy Love but of course that was a drama.

The programme was very well presented and visually beautiful. I tend to agree with some of the previous comments about the debate over whether Mozart had TS or not, but that apart it portrayed the condition in a sympathetic yet reasonable way.

Perhaps there could have been slightly more coverage of James McConnel's own symptoms, but I was also interested in his occasional references to OCD (not sure he had it himself) as well.

[Ashley]

Perhaps there could have been slightly more coverage of James McConnel's own symptoms, but I was also interested in his occasional references to OCD (not sure he had it himself) as well.

17297[/snapback]

One moving moment was when he was shopping and had to touch the pens or whatever it was on the shelf, you could see two guys behind starring at him. Not sure if they were starring at cameras or his TS.

[catherine]

Yes, I accept and endorse hypnosincs comments re Prof Mary Robertson. I don't really understand how these programs operate as I thought (perhaps naively ) that the contributers would have had some say in what was included and what was omitted? But I suspect I'm wrong on that point and that the editors ultimately had the final say. If this is the case then I agree that Mary Robertson has every right to feel disappointed and even annoyed at her representation.

I also agree that James McConnel was determined to 'prove' his theory come hell or hight water! I actually feel he was too forceful and didn't do himself any favours in the end.

I'll check out a couple of the TS sites and see if there's been any reaction on these. Maybe if Dr Rickards is in contact with Ashie anytime we could ask him for his opinion on the subject?

Catherine :goof: