Ouija board as therapy.

[Guest anatta]

Using a ouija board as exposure therapy could horrendously backfire, because one thing most of us can agree on is that a large percentage of the time, the glass will move and spell out coherent sentences, often frightening ones, and worst of all, ones that say exactly the sort of thing the people touching the glass fear or suspect it might say. However, if someone insists on doing this, there is a way they can prevent it from appearing to confirm their worst fears.

First of all, getting familiar with research into the ideomotor effect, or at least the principle behind it and how it relates to ouija boards. Then, making a very simple addition to the process that can show you in real time that despite the movement feeling like it's coming from the glass, and not feeling as if your fingers are either pushing or being guided by an external force, they are in fact where the force on the glass is coming from:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cma5Zn7xrWU Fast-forward to 3:46 for a demonstration.

Alternatively, they could do it blind-folded, and ensure that they don't memorise or look much at all at the letters around the board, so they can't remember where they are. If everyone touching the glass is honest and doesn't know where the letters are, nothing of any sense will be spelled out.

You can probably think up your own tests, as well, to help ensure that the experience won't frighten you or - as it did to someone I know - turn you into a fundamentalist Christian who can't celebrate Christmas anymore (because he thinks pagan festivals along with pretty much anything else fun, are demonic) or do anything without the crushing belief that almost everyone he's ever met will burn in hell forever. And he's not even mentally ill.

Edited February 23, 2015 by anatta

[Guest legend]

Recovery is about testing the thought, not letting the thought test you !

Certain exposures in certain obsessions would not be applicable, and in certain circumstances not required

Ocd recovery not just exposures , it's about the learning of everything , expect the cognition side ,

[PolarBear]

I guess I've changed my mind somewhat over using a Ouija board in exposure therapy. For the right type of OCD theme I think it might be a good exposure (likely near the top of the hierarchy). For someone with severe magical thinking, it could be the ultimate exposure, just as someone with severe contamination obsessions might plunge his hand in a toilet and not wash his hand.

[Guest Tricia]

think rob said its used as an eg of an exposure, a general statement, and/but not always required

Thank you, Legend. It seems that David Veale and Rob Willson still approve it then.

[Guest Tricia]

...First of all, getting familiar with research into the ideomotor effect, or at least the principle behind it and how it relates to ouija boards. Then, making a very simple addition to the process that can show you in real time that despite the movement feeling like it's coming from the glass, and not feeling as if your fingers are either pushing or being guided by an external force, they are in fact where the force on the glass is coming from:

I am sure the ideomotor effect has been proven. In many cases that may well be all that has occurred while using the Ouija, However, it does not explain cracks in ceilings and other bizarre occurrences that have happened to people I know who have used it.

If the ideomotor effect was behind the glass spelling out sentences when my mother and her army colleagues used it, how could it be that every single prediction came true? None of them was brave (foolish?) enough to experiment with the board again and my mother said it was more frightening than anything the Nazi's dropped over their heads. Not one of them had believed in its power beforehand, they were using it as a game.

I guess I've changed my mind somewhat over using a Ouija board in exposure therapy. For the right type of OCD theme I think it might be a good exposure (likely near the top of the hierarchy). For someone with severe magical thinking, it could be the ultimate exposure, just as someone with severe contamination obsessions might plunge his hand in a toilet and not wash his hand.

There are people who think exposure to toilets etc., is extreme, but there is nothing, other than obviously unacceptable exposures, like stepping in front of a fast moving lorry, that is as dangerous as this. In fact, being mown down by a lorry might actually be preferable to messing around with the occult!

I implore anyone who has been asked to do this to say a firm 'no'.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Tricia

[PolarBear]

I think Ouija boards are about as dangerous as Monopoly games. It's all make believe and completely harmless. The problem is some people have their beliefs grounded in fantasy.

[Guest legend]

Thank you, Legend. It seems that David Veale and Rob Willson still approve it then.

Each case invidual unique, ouiji given as an eg not a be all and end all one would

Suggest /expect !

Probs same as making a person whose fearful of being a Peado , kiss niece or own child, testing the thoughts, not trying to rid oneself of them

Increase angst= decrease in ocd .

Legend

[Guest legend]

Gale, mine involve believing (strongly!) that if I say, do (or don't do) certain things, harm will come to a loved one.

I also have a 'thing' about the colour black and, despite wearing it, the fear remains. Every time I put something black on I have a fear someone I love will die. All this is magical thinking, but obviously there are many themes.

Hence testing the thoughts by carrying out exposures , then when one does the intrusions increase , but that's when you look at what one does with the increasements re CBT wise Tricia xx

[Guest PaulM]

This is a tricky one because it challenges not only OCD, but the existence of things many faiths are based on.

Some people will no doubt think this is all a myth. And others, of varying beliefs, will say it's not.

How does an atheist convince a person who believes in something it's just folklore? And equally, how does someone who believes in something convince an atheist to believe? Holy wars have been fought on less. If we can figure it out here, there are a lot people without OCD who would be interested...

Rowan Atkinson does a rather funny skit on the issue. But it's a serious subject.

[PolarBear]

This isn't really about whether Ouija boards work or not. It's about a person with religious or magical thinking obsessions exposing themselves to the board and all that it may represent while working to resist compulsions.

[Guest PaulM]

This isn't really about whether Ouija boards work or not. It's about a person with religious or magical thinking obsessions exposing themselves to the board and all that it may represent while working to resist compulsions.

I guess I'm having a difficult time being able to separate the two. If you believe they work, then the possibility of something bad happening is, sadly, quite real.

It seems a rather extreme exposure meddling with things that, again if one believes in that sort of thing, might be rather difficult to come to terms with.

[PolarBear]

I'm sure the suggestion of using a Ouija board as exposure came from those who do not believe anything bad can happen from their use.

[Guest Gale1982]

I actually bought one last year after this thread was started. Having written about my skepticism on the subject, I decided to set up cameras and record the results. So sure of my position, I was confident the whole thing would just be a bit of fun. I completely bottled and ended up burning the damn thing!! I didn't just throw it away or give it to a friend like "here, have a Ouija Board", I burnt it... It still troubles me because I really didn't expect it to go down that way...

[Guest legend]

A devil worshipper fears he is going to heaven !! Same meat , different gravy !!

But what is happening here Is like religous grounds, we are dealing with another outside thing apart from but has some power as well

But the obsession is the issue and a good vicar or devil worship cult who understands OCD would advocate both approaches if it meant that person took less suffering !

Get proactive CBT works

[Guest Tricia]

I actually bought one last year after this thread was started. Having written about my skepticism on the subject, I decided to set up cameras and record the results. So sure of my position, I was confident the whole thing would just be a bit of fun. I completely bottled and ended up burning the damn thing!! I didn't just throw it away or give it to a friend like "here, have a Ouija Board", I burnt it... It still troubles me because I really didn't expect it to go down that way...

I have thought of you a great deal over the last months and I cannot tell you how relieved I am to read your message! (I'm not relieved that you are still troubled, of course, but that you burned it)

A devil worshipper fears he is going to heaven !! Same meat , different gravy !!

But what is happening here Is like religous grounds, we are dealing with another outside thing apart from but has some power as well

But the obsession is the issue and a good vicar or devil worship cult who understands OCD would advocate both approaches if it meant that person took less suffering !

Get proactive CBT works

Legend, I don't doubt a devil worship cult would agree to it, but no vicar would. Mine was horrified when I read David Veale's advice to him. As for the devil worshippers - please don't anyone even think of going down that route!!!

I still recall priests begging people not to watch The Exorcist (something else Veale and Willson suggest we view if we have obsessions about evil etc).

I'm sure the suggestion of using a Ouija board as exposure came from those who do not believe anything bad can happen from their use.

Absolutely, PB, I'm sure no professional would advise this approach unless he felt sure it was nonsense. The problem is, it isn't nonsense; even some scientists believe in the awful consequences of using the Ouija and it's a very dangerous thing to advise as a form of therapy.

My father was an intelligent down to earth man, and, even though he had actually witnessed some amazing (and impossible) events in the home of one of his friends, who was a spiritualist, he still could not accept that there is any force beyond this world responsible for what he saw with his own eyes. My dad said he trusted his friend 100 percent, he never accused him of trickery, but he remained a sceptic. I say this because I do appreciate how terribly hard it is for some to accept the supernatural.

[Guest Tricia]

I think Ouija boards are about as dangerous as Monopoly games. It's all make believe and completely harmless. The problem is some people have their beliefs grounded in fantasy.

Just wanted to add, as far as I am aware, the Monopoly board has never solved a crime or given out any information that proved to be true.

[Guest anatta]

I actually bought one last year after this thread was started. Having written about my skepticism on the subject, I decided to set up cameras and record the results. So sure of my position, I was confident the whole thing would just be a bit of fun. I completely bottled and ended up burning the damn thing!! I didn't just throw it away or give it to a friend like "here, have a Ouija Board", I burnt it... It still troubles me because I really didn't expect it to go down that way...

You did mention in an earlier post that you're very suggestible and have had hallucinations or misinterpreted perceptions when experiencing sensory deprivation and expectation.

The more suggestible you are, the more pronounced the ideomotor effect is. Stage hypnotists actually pick out the most suggestible, and therefore easily hypnotised, members of their audience by testing them for the ideomotor effect - for example, the ones who swing a pendulum most wildly when it is suggested to them that the pendulum will swing. So the more suggestible you are, the more likely it is that the ouija glass will move.

What exactly frightened you, if you don't mind sharing? Was it the movement of the glass? If it has frightened you, it might help to do it with people you trust and use one of the techniques I mentioned in my last post, i,.e. the tied up card technique or doing it blindfolded and not knowing which way round the board has been placed. These could put your mind at ease that it was just you pushing it unconsciously.

Edited February 25, 2015 by anatta

[Ashley]

The problem is, it isn't nonsense; even some scientists believe in the awful consequences of using the Ouija and it's a very dangerous thing to advise as a form of therapy.

It depends on the context of therapy.

For example different religions have different beliefs and a good therapist will consult a religious leader to help them with therapy sometimes. If a person believes they must use a Ouija board daily to prevent bad things happening, it suggests they believe in the context of Ouija boards and there is some context to challenging that by inviting bad things to happen.

Beyond that context you are right, it's a stupid therapy approach, but then so is me putting my hand down a toilet but that therapy had meaning to my OCD.

As for Ouija boards in general, they have little meaning to most people, but if your OCD is wrapped up in believing then it 'feels' very real.

[Guest anatta]

Just wanted to add, as far as I am aware, the Monopoly board has never solved a crime or given out any information that proved to be true.

I seriously hope that ouija board evidence has never been successfully used in court to convict somebody...

[Guest Tricia]

You did mention in an earlier post that you're very suggestible and have had hallucinations or misinterpreted perceptions when experiencing sensory deprivation and expectation.

The more suggestible you are, the more pronounced the ideomotor effect is. Stage hypnotists actually pick out the most suggestible, and therefore easily hypnotised, members of their audience by testing them for the ideomotor effect - for example, the ones who swing a pendulum most wildly when it is suggested to them that the pendulum will swing. So the more suggestible you are, the more likely it is that the ouija glass will move.

What exactly frightened you, if you don't mind sharing? Was it the movement of the glass? If it has frightened you, it might help to do it with people you trust and use one of the techniques I mentioned in my last post, i,.e. the tied up card technique or doing it blindfolded and not knowing which way round the board has been placed. These could put your mind at ease that it was just you pushing it unconsciously.

Anatta, please can you tell me where I have mentioned hallucinations and being suggestible?

I was as much a sceptic as my father, and (I am now ashamed to say) ridiculed the vets I worked with in London for saying mischievous spirits were opening up animals' cages. I won't bore you with the details, but experiences there and in a hospital later changed my thinking. I don't recall any hallucinations, but my memory is not as sharp as it was, so please tell me what I have said previously regarding them.

Due to my mother's terror of the Ouija, I researched it more, but I made a promise to her never to use it.

In my thirties, I experienced precognition (not hallucinations) where I 'saw' in my mind's eye things before they happened. This really disturbed me (totally incompatible with OCD) and triggered a magical thinking obsession. Two vicars prayed I would lose what they termed a 'gift' and I have never 'seen' things since, but the magical thinking remains. I don't react to it, but the intrusive thoughts are disturbing at times.

However, my OCD has nothing to do with my fear over using the Ouija board. I know magical thinking is not real and is just my OCD playing up. I know the Ouija is real.

No, I don't think any court in the world would allow evidence from using the Ouija, but it has led police to investigate and find the clues they needed to arrest people. A friend of mine regularly works with the police in this way.

You mentioned stage hypnotists (no one has ever managed yet to hypnotize me!) and I also thought of stage psychics - I have met a few and not yet believed a single one of them. I am not as suggestible as you may believe! Most are self-deluded cranks or charlatans and it's rare to meet a psychic who is genuine. It has been my privilege to have encountered one and that has been enough to convince me beyond any doubt that spirits are around us all. They do no harm as long as we don't invite trouble (by using the Ouija).

For example different religions have different beliefs and a good therapist will consult a religious leader to help them with therapy sometimes. If a person believes they must use a Ouija board daily to prevent bad things happening, it suggests they believe in the context of Ouija boards and there is some context to challenging that by inviting bad things to happen.

I don't believe David Veale and Rob Willson were necessarily referring to people who felt they must use the Ouija, but to people with superstitious beliefs about the devil etc. who probably would be afraid even to go near one.

I know that many therapists have contacted religious leaders for help when people are suffering certain obsessions, but I'd be amazed if any would advocate using the Ouija board. Certainly no vicar I have ever spoken to has and I know Catholics are very opposed to its use.

Prof Foa, and other OCD experts, explain there are certain obsessions where direct exposure is not possible. A toilet is pretty harmless, but doing something that would cause your house to burn down, for example, could not be used as exposure, and nor should the Ouija board. It's one of those things that should remain out of bounds and exposure tackled from a different direction.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Tricia

[Guest anatta]

Tricia, I was talking to Gale. :original:

[Guest Tricia]

So you were! So sorry, Anatta! I don't know how I missed the quote above your message, it's clear enough.

P.S. Doesn't look as though it's just my pre cognition that's gone...

Edited February 25, 2015 by Tricia

[Guest anatta]

Haha, no worries, we all have moments online.

[Guest Gale1982]

You did mention in an earlier post that you're very suggestible and have had hallucinations or misinterpreted perceptions when experiencing sensory deprivation and expectation.

The more suggestible you are, the more pronounced the ideomotor effect is. Stage hypnotists actually pick out the most suggestible, and therefore easily hypnotised, members of their audience by testing them for the ideomotor effect - for example, the ones who swing a pendulum most wildly when it is suggested to them that the pendulum will swing. So the more suggestible you are, the more likely it is that the ouija glass will move.

What exactly frightened you, if you don't mind sharing? Was it the movement of the glass? If it has frightened you, it might help to do it with people you trust and use one of the techniques I mentioned in my last post, i,.e. the tied up card technique or doing it blindfolded and not knowing which way round the board has been placed. These could put your mind at ease that it was just you pushing it unconsciously.

I didn't even manage to get it out of the plastic packaging, let alone strike up small talk with the other side...so to speak.

I guess the thing that frightened me was "what if?". Its always the things I am most sure of in my life that I doubt the most. Does that make sense?

I have the same thing with churches and gay-bars - I have a huge problem with going into either... anything that represents the antithesis of how I see myself. Its not the content, nature or people but the fear of my doubts.

By way of part exposure, I did go to a gay bar last year having been convinced by a friend that it was a good place to meet single, strait women. He was wrong, very ,very wrong.

I'm not sure how much my life is impacted by these doubts. I do spend a lot of time thinking/ruminating/obsessing about religion and sexuality. Think I'm might keep the lid on that can of worms a little longer

[Guest Gale1982]

I have thought of you a great deal over the last months and I cannot tell you how relieved I am to read your message! (I'm not relieved that you are still troubled, of course, but that you burned it)

Didn't mean to make you worry, Tricia. No one got hurt except the Ouija board...and my wallet