Stuck, again trying to figure out if me wanting things a certain way is OCD

[saddaniels]

It doesn't sound logical that I should be doing exposures forever, but according to the "undoing" rule, if you find yourself in a compulsion, no matter if its one time or one hundred times, you are supposed to do an exposure. I worry because the other day I set in on my preference and I was good, until the thought that "Oh no, your TV is on the wrong setting" came to my mind. I quickly dismissed it as irrational, OCD nonsense, but then I start to question if it was on the wrong setting would I be anxious? Not so much anxious as just really upset that I had to do an exposure based on the "undoing" technique. I had participated in a compulsion, so I obviously need to do an exposure, but how long am I supposed to do that for an exposure. And when I slip and do another compulsion, I'll have to repeat the exposure of putting the setting on one I don't like. Its never going to end because I'm not going to be able to rid myself of compulsions completely, therefore, that means I will have to do exposures and have things the opposite of how I want them. According to the "undoing" technique & the fact that I will never rid myself of compulsions completely, always doing exposures would have to technically be the correct route.  

[PolarBear]

Sigh. You've completely misconstrued what you learned in therapy. Your above post is all wrong.

For the umpteenth time, having a preference is Not a compulsion. Until you come to grips with that I dont think we can proceed further.

[saddaniels]

I know my preference is not a compulsion. My question comes when I find myself engaging in OCD & slip & do a compulsion, if I should automatically expose myself. According to the "undo" rule I should be and this is where I'm tripping. I definitely understand doing exposures at set times, but when you slip & do a compulsion & acknowledge you just slipped and there was no reason to do a compulsion, do you still expose yourself?

[saddaniels]

Kinda like when someone with symmetry issues tries to make a picture just right again. They are allowed to have it set to how they want it, but when they do a compulsion of checking to see if its "just right", do they expose themselves again to making it off how they don't want it? And assuming they would never be compulsion free around this topic, that would mean they would be doing exposures forever according to the "undo" rule.

[saddaniels]

Because you cannot rid yourself of OCD completely.

[saddaniels]

Or someone with intrusive thoughts. They may remind themselves once and a while that they are a good person. Since this may be a compulsion, wouldn't they have to "undo" that by exposing themselves to reading their intrusive thoughts to themselves right after doing the compulsion. Do you always have to correct a compulsion with an exposure or can you correct a compulsion with CBT as well?

[snowbear]

24 minutes ago, saddaniels said:

Do you always have to correct a compulsion with an exposure or can you correct a compulsion with CBT as well?

NO. You don't have to 'correct' every single compulsion with an exposure. And you don't 'correct' a compulsion with CBT.  

CBT teaches you that you don't have to do compulsions.

CBT teaches you to stop thinking in terms of 'wrong' and 'correct' and 'rules'. 

CBT helps you understand that whether to do compulsions or not is a choice you are free to make.

CBT shows you that actions have consequences. The consequence of doing compulsions is the fear and uncertainty that urged you to do them never goes away. The consequence of not doing compulsions is to become free of the pestering thoughts and urges.

It's a choice, not a rule. 

What you're struggling with is that you like rules. So you apply one rule after another instead of seeing that there are no rules.

Compulsions, exposures, life, therapy -  it's all about choices, not rules. This is as simple as understanding the fact you're free to make a choice. 

[saddaniels]

I agree with you Snowbear, I'm just trying to figure out why my therapist wanted people, after they did a compulsion, to do an exposure. My multiple therapists called it "undoing". I don't think exposures should always have to be done after doing a compulsion, but ERP therapy teaches that. It taught me that and real people taught me about how "undoing" is possible with exposing yourself. I can't shake it. I'm trying to shake it, but the more I try, the harder I fall. 

Edited December 18, 2016 by saddaniels

[PolarBear]

3 hours ago, saddaniels said:

Kinda like when someone with symmetry issues tries to make a picture just right again. They are allowed to have it set to how they want it, but when they do a compulsion of checking to see if its "just right", do they expose themselves again to making it off how they don't want it? And assuming they would never be compulsion free around this topic, that would mean they would be doing exposures forever according to the "undo" rule.

Here's a perfect example of how you are mixing up what you've learned. The sufferer sets the picture once. His compulsion is to go back, check and reset it again. If he does that he needs to stop and leave it be and not check and readjust again. He could do an exposure by tilting the picture and leaving it like that, putting up with the anxiety caused. However, if he goes back again he's not going to keep doing a compulsion, followed by misalignment the picture endlessly. There would be no point.

To sum it up, no, you do not do an exposure every time you do a compulsion.

[PolarBear]

4 hours ago, saddaniels said:

Because you cannot rid yourself of OCD completely.

Yes you can.

[PolarBear]

3 hours ago, saddaniels said:

Or someone with intrusive thoughts. They may remind themselves once and a while that they are a good person. Since this may be a compulsion, wouldn't they have to "undo" that by exposing themselves to reading their intrusive thoughts to themselves right after doing the compulsion. Do you always have to correct a compulsion with an exposure or can you correct a compulsion with CBT as well?

You don't have to correct a compulsion at all. You're stuck on the mindset that you have to somehow undo compulsions. You can't. Once they're done, they're done. What you can do is work hard to not do what would be your next compulsion.

[PolarBear]

3 hours ago, saddaniels said:

I agree with you Snowbear, I'm just trying to figure out why my therapist wanted people, after they did a compulsion, to do an exposure. My multiple therapists called it "undoing". I don't think exposures should always have to be done after doing a compulsion, but ERP therapy teaches that. It taught me that and real people taught me about how "undoing" is possible with exposing yourself. I can't shake it. I'm trying to shake it, but the more I try, the harder I fall. 

I'm quite sure your therapists did not intend for you to get stuck in an endless cycle of doing compulsions and undoing them. What would be the point? Stop the compulsions and you don't have to do anything.

Edited December 18, 2016 by PolarBear

[saddaniels]

2 hours ago, PolarBear said:

Here's a perfect example of how you are mixing up what you've learned. The sufferer sets the picture once. His compulsion is to go back, check and reset it again. If he does that he needs to stop and leave it be and not check and readjust again. He could do an exposure by tilting the picture and leaving it like that, putting up with the anxiety caused. However, if he goes back again he's not going to keep doing a compulsion, followed by misalignment the picture endlessly. There would be no point.

To sum it up, no, you do not do an exposure every time you do a compulsion.

This is my belief as well. I completely agree with you PolarBear. I'm still struggling to break free from over-analyzing how to do the therapy "just right" based on how I saw some others in my treatment program doing it. Like with the "undoing" technique it confuses me because my therapist would applaud people when they had done a compulsion & then chose to do an exposure afterwards to show themselves that the compulsion was useless. I get upset, because I would see them participating in this way to get better from OCD & when I try to do it, like tonight I had a compulsion where I gave in and checked & then went to put my TV on the setting I didn't like as an exposure, but its not registering with me as being beneficial therapy. I'm to the point where I understand how pointless the TV nonsense is, yet, for whatever reason, I still find myself doing the occasional compulsion & of course I beat myself up, wanting perfect treatment & perfect therapy, that I think back to therapy tools used in treatment & I try to apply them compulsively. As much as this may not sound true, I do want to get better. I want to get better so bad, that I'm taking every tool I've learned in therapy and using it now, when I'm not sure I should be using them, especially the "undo" technique. Maybe there was a time where the "undo" technique taught by my therapists would have worked when I was doing compulsion after compulsion after compulsion surrounding my television, but now, since the compulsions are minimal around the television & major around how to get therapy "just right", the "undo" technique taught to me may be useless right now. Its the uncertainty that kills me. The uncertainty of if I'm doing a compulsion, what to do when I do a compulsion, thinking of exposures & going back, bringing up certain therapy tools that shouldn't be used, getting obsessed with doing my treatment right, etc.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2016 by saddaniels

[PolarBear]

You said you want perfect treatment and perfect therapy. Therein lies the core of your problem. You can't have perfect. And all your attempts to do it perfectly have led you into an anxious, ruminative state. Looking for perfection is not working for you.

[saddaniels]

I can see that I'm trying too hard to get treatment just right. Personally, if I happen to slip and do a compulsion id like to accept that I slipped and then move on. I don't want to do an exposure afterwards and I agree with you PolarBear and Snowbear, I don't think doing that would be beneficial. But, I get stumped when I think about all the people in my treatment program who would do the "undo" technique multiple times, like when they did compulsions, they would follow with an exposure, sorta like the hand washing "undo" technique I had talked about early. This is where the dead comes in, the what if I should be doing the same thing even when I don't think it's beneficial for me, the doubt comes in when I've seen other people do the "undo". Technique. Blah, it sucks. I want to let it go, the urge is still strong to ruminate.

 

Edited December 19, 2016 by saddaniels

[PolarBear]

As I've said before, I don't think choosing a preference is a compulsion so no undoing comes into play.

[saddaniels]

I'm referring to actual compulsions that might happen at a later time, PolarBear. I'm beginning to see that I'm allowed a preference & choosing something isn't a compulsion. 

But if I am to slip in the future and do an ACTUAL compulsion, I dont see the need to do an exposure right afterwards. I'm not perfect. Maybe if for some reason I got deep into checking the TV settings in the future, an exposure would be plausible. But for just a few compulsions, I don't think an exposure should be used directly afterwards. Maybe the people using the "undo" technique were so deep into their compulsions, that doing an exposure after compulsions was a good thing to do for awhile. And perhaps this technique is only meant to be used when exposures are beneficial in your treatment. There comes a time when exposures can only do so much & people may still perform an occasional compulsion or mild compulsions that doesn't require such an abrupt exposure such as misaligning a picture frame how you don't want it. Maybe, just accepting you did a compulsion & moving on to live your life accepting you have OCD would be the best thing to do. No exposure necessary.

These are just thoughts I'm throwing out. Perhaps response prevention is the most important thing and you don't always need an obvious exposure to heal. Perhaps living my life, accepting I'm not perfect would be my best "exposure". 

I truly feel this approach would be what's best for me. I just wish I could let go of the "rules" that I have to do something a certain way to get better, in particular, the "undo" technique taught by therapists. I wish I could let my gut feeling that this is what I need to do to get better take over instead of keeping OCD and it's lies/tricks at the forefront of my mind.

I feel like what I just wrote is what everyone is trying to get me to see, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2016 by saddaniels

[saddaniels]

On December 17, 2016 at 20:50, snowbear said:

What you're struggling with is that you like rules. So you apply one rule after another instead of seeing that there are no rules.

snowbear, i agree this is where i'm struggling. when i find myself doing a compulsion, i would like to accept that it had just been done, it was unnesscary & just move on, without having to do an exposure where I make things off how I don't want them. Maybe it works for some people to an extent, but I don't think its good for me. I want to choose desperately, but OCD's uncertainty about how I'm not doing it "just right" is pretty intense. I compare myself to what others have done in treatment to get better & if a specific therapy approach doesn't feel right to me (like the "undoing" approach i've been talking about taught by therapists), I freak out. OCD starts to take over and I get lost in ruminating about I need to expose myself every time I slip & do a compulsion. Its exhausting because one part of my mind, the rational part says "that doesn't work for you" and the other part says "what if you're in denial? what if you're being lazy by not doing exposures each time you slip and do a compulsion." 

Its quite exhausting. I'm really trying to figure out how to move away & being able to accept that I'm allowed a personal choice for what helps me fight OCD & what doesn't. 

[PolarBear]

Further problematic is the fact that you are trying to undo compulsions that don't exist. As I've said many times, you are allowed to have choices. Making a choice and sticking to it is NOT a compulsion, so therefore no undoing is required.

[saddaniels]

I'll try to simplify what I'm asking. If I did a compulsion by trying to align something just right, would it be okay to recognize that I just did a compulsion & leave that item how I just corrected it, move on & try to resist checking again. Would that be okay?

[PolarBear]

Two issues. First, who said aligning something just right is a compulsion? You've got it stuck in your head that it is a compulsion and then you go further into wondering if you should do some kind of exercise to cancel out that compulsion. But what if doing so is NOT a compulsion in the first place? Because setting something the way you want it, one time, is NOT a compulsion. It's just you being you and having things the way you want them. So if it's not a compulsion, there is no need to undo it. Right?

If something is a compulsion, as I've said many times already, you do not have to undo it. Sure you can do the undo thing if you want, but only if the act was a compulsion in the first place.

Do you understand this?

[snowbear]

1 hour ago, saddaniels said:

I'm really trying to figure out how to move away & being able to accept that I'm allowed a personal choice for what helps me fight OCD & what doesn't. 

This is the cognitive part of CBT where you come to understand the problem is based in how you approach things in your thinking and look for alternative ways of thinking.

You've identified the problem - that you like rules, like certainty, and like having clearly defined preferences (probably so you don't have to keep making decisions and facing repeated uncertainty.)

The next step is finding a different way of thinking about things. It can be as simple as changing your thought: 'Things have to be done a certain way and it has to be the right way or else...' to 'Things can be done any number of ways and no one way is better than any other, even when I have a preference for a particular way and opt for that.' 

Consider saying something like this to yourself:

I like this way, so I'll do it this way today. But in having that preference I also allow that tomorrow I might want to do it differently and if I do that's ok. I'll do whatever my preference is tomorrow, whether that's the same as today or different. It's all ok, because there's no one right or wrong way to do things. It's just a choice, and these sort of choices aren't a big deal. I used to worry about them  but now I understand I can't get it wrong no matter which choice I make (because there is no right or wrong) and therefore I can just go with my current choice as being my current preference. No more worry, no more thinking about the choice that I just made.  

Any clearer put like that? 

[saddaniels]

4 hours ago, PolarBear said:

 

If something is a compulsion, as I've said many times already, you do not have to undo it. Sure you can do the undo thing if you want, but only if the act was a compulsion in the first place.

Do you understand this?

This is what I'm doing compulsions around right now, trying to figure out if in the future, I do slip and do a compulsion, if that means I should use the "undo thing" and expose myself after a compulsion. I just see this as tiring because personally, I do not believe I should have to do an exposure Everytime I slip and do a compulsion, like you have been telling me PolarBear. What trips me is that my therapists encouraged this type of behavior for people who were doing compulsions. I just think there should be an equal balance of exposures & also just noticing you did a compulsion without having to counter it with an exposure. Maybe the "undo thing" was only supposed to be used temporarily for certain themes, and only for a certain time. Maybe it was used for people who really wanted to push themseleves with exposures. I do not know and that is what is hurting me.

 

But going back, yes PolarBear and Snowbear, your suggestion makes sense. I understand what you are saying

 

Edited December 20, 2016 by saddaniels

[PolarBear]

You are so concerned about what to do IF you do a compulsion and all the while you ARE doing a big compulsion: ruminating about how to handle future compulsions. That's what you need to stop. Create an attitude where it doesn't matter if you do the odd compulsion.

And you have to get it straight in your head that you are allowed to have preferences and choosing a preference is not a compulsion.

[saddaniels]

Yes, I now believe that I am allowed to have preference and I do not view a preference as a compulsion anymore.

And yes, I am so concerned right now about what to do if I do a compulsion because the uncertainty of what to do is killing me. Personally, IF I do an odd compulsion in the future, I'd like to acknowledge I slipped & just let it go. THAT seems more ethical than when you slip and do a compulsion, you immediately follow with an exposure. >> The "undo thing".

Again, I feel like I'm not allowed how I'd like to approach therapy because some other people apparently do an exposure right after a compulsion, according to the "undo thing" that I learned in residential. I don't see it as beneficial, but am I allowed to take this stance on the approach? Technically, I'm free to take whatever stance I want. Easier said than done when OCD has me locked into this vicious cycle of how I should approach minor slips in recovery.

Exposures themselves scare me now. They feel like a punishment thing.

Edited December 20, 2016 by saddaniels