New Therapist, Worried

[Headwreck]

Hi

So I went to a new therapist yesterday who specialises in OCD and CBT. Having spoken to him I'm convinced that this is not OCD. The things he was saying just didn't seem to fit with me. 

For example. He says it's intrusive thoughts that then cause compulsions. My thoughts are always there at all times, it's not really a flicker of a thought. Secondly the thoughts no longer cause anxiety, I find that the compulsion ie ruminating is causing the anxiety because the deeper I think the more convinced I am. I do not gain relief from the ruminating like he suggested I should, only anxiety. The only relief I find is from confessing or looking at OCD online sometimes. He was saying he would do ERT with me but I'm not sure I have many triggers at all. 

My issues just don't seem to fit. Is there another framework that this follows? 

[Headwreck]

I also mentioned that I told myself I had done something yesterday and that it made me feel like a weight was lifted, he looked a bit confused and probed the issue as though it was strange.

I really don't think it matches the MO which he provided. So this is probably just me being in denial and not willing to accept the truth.

[Ashley]

Well I am guessing this is OCD in itself, probing if you have OCD just because what the therapist said doesn't match exactly what you're experiencing.

2 hours ago, Headwreck said:

For example. He says it's intrusive thoughts that then cause compulsions. My thoughts are always there at all times, it's not really a flicker of a thought. Secondly the thoughts no longer cause anxiety, I find that the compulsion ie ruminating is causing the anxiety because the deeper I think the more convinced I am. 

I don't think any of this is wrong, just your interpretation of what was being said to you.  It's not unusual for a person's OCD to become entrenched and over time the original worry or anxiety becomes lost to the daily ravages of OCD thoughts. 

2 hours ago, Headwreck said:

I do not gain relief from the ruminating like he suggested I should, only anxiety. The only relief I find is from confessing or looking at OCD online sometimes.

Ruminating generally causes more worries and doubts, so that part is questionable but you do describe finding relief from compulsions there too. 

Did the therapist say ERP or did he offer to do full CBT?  Is this an NHS therapist or private?

[Emsie]

12 minutes ago, Ashley said:

Ruminating generally causes more worries and doubts, so that part is questionable but you do describe finding relief from compulsions there too. 

Hope you don't mind Headwreck, me jumping in here but I'm hoping it will help you too.

Ashley, is it normal for ruminating to cause further anxiety because I don't find relief from ruminating either? I just get further worries and doubts from ruminating. Did you mean it was questionable that you get relief from ruminating?

Edited January 31, 2018 by Emsie

[Headwreck]

4 minutes ago, Ashley said:

Ruminating generally causes more worries and doubts, so that part is questionable but you do describe finding relief from compulsions there too.

Hi Ashley. When I'm ruminating it is causing more worries and doubts, he said to me that I would feel relieved from doing it. Do you think what I said is questionable or what he said is? Sorry but I'm feeling really bad today so read this and panicked. 

12 minutes ago, Ashley said:

 

6 minutes ago, Ashley said:

It's not unusual for a person's OCD to become entrenched and over time the original worry or anxiety becomes lost to the daily ravages of OCD thoughts. 

I'm at a stage where I am ruminating literally every moment of the day. I'm not feeling anxious unless a new thought pops into my head which is usually a true memory which exacerbates my worry, otherwise I do not want to talk to anyone as my mind is completely engrossed. I don't really talk anymore unless I'm talking about this. I'm waking up with the feelings and thoughts. This has been nearly four months now. I'm now obsessing about remembering any time in the past year where I remember knowing I've cheated. Basically remembering memories of remembering. I've had thoughts that would indicate I've cheated but they never have content if that makes sense. Rambling, sorry. 

14 minutes ago, Ashley said:

Did the therapist say ERP or did he offer to do full CBT?  Is this an NHS therapist or private?

He works for the NHS through the day but has a private consultancy in the evenings which I attend. He said it would be a tough course of CBT lasting 20 sessions, one hour per session. ERP would be practiced also. An example he gave was watching a show with someone cheating as a storyline and me telling myself I'm a cheat while watching it. But I don't think that would trigger me, it only seems to be my own thoughts that trigger it or maybe on occasion conversations or words. 

[Headwreck]

5 minutes ago, Emsie said:

Hope you don't mind Headwreck, me jumping in here but I'm hoping it will help you too.

Ashley, is it normal for ruminating to cause further anxiety because I don't find relief from ruminating either? I just get further worries and doubts from ruminating. Did you mean it was questionable that you get relief from ruminating?

It's okay I panicked when I read this haha. 

[Gemma7]

Ruminating nearly always causes more anxiety. It only relieves anxiety if you find the 'solution' to your problem e.g oh yes i remember i did lock the door. 

Problem is if you keep memory checking (going over and over thoughts), confidence in memory goes down, everything becomes more confused and rumination fails every time. 

[Ashley]

32 minutes ago, Emsie said:

Ashley, is it normal for ruminating to cause further anxiety because I don't find relief from ruminating either? I just get further worries and doubts from ruminating. Did you mean it was questionable that you get relief from ruminating?

Yes Emsie, sorry I should have been clearer, the suggestion that ruminating causes relief is the part I meant was questionable.   You're right, the more we ruminate in general the more it will cause more doubts, more uncertainty and more worry.

[Ashley]

32 minutes ago, Headwreck said:

I'm at a stage where I am ruminating literally every moment of the day. I'm not feeling anxious unless a new thought pops into my head which is usually a true memory which exacerbates my worry, otherwise I do not want to talk to anyone as my mind is completely engrossed. I don't really talk anymore unless I'm talking about this. I'm waking up with the feelings and thoughts. This has been nearly four months now. I'm now obsessing about remembering any time in the past year where I remember knowing I've cheated. Basically remembering memories of remembering. I've had thoughts that would indicate I've cheated but they never have content if that makes sense. Rambling, sorry. 

I may be wrong, but what I suspect is happening is that there is anxiety there, but you've become so used to it you're not recognising it because it becomes lost in more and more ruminating.

[Headwreck]

I'm just at a loss. My thoughts I remember having (which are real) are causing more issues than the night in question as sometimes I recognise that nothing happened but then it makes me question why I had these thoughts in the past about "confessing" and how I'd be forgiven, how I'd not tell my partner, etc. So then I'm guessing I'm lying about the night in question. I'm just completely lost and don't know what to do. Completely lost. 

[Gemma7]

Headwreck you are placing a massive importance on having thoughts. This is the problem. Having thoughts about anything is evidence of nothing. They are just thoughts. Asking why did you have a thought about confessing, is again placing importance on thoughts. A reason why you might of had thoughts about confessing are endless, maybe you heard the word confess and have now forgot, maybe you were thinking about something and pondered what it would be like to confess which then brought on the thought, who knows? What you are looking for is what triggered your trigger, but you will never remember. The likely explanation is that it was just something completely innocent and your problem is OCD. 

[Headwreck]

Thanks Gemma. I've thought this myself with regards to these memories of the thoughts but I feel in my heart that these thoughts were about this.

I don't know how to get out of this. It is making my partner ill so it makes me think even more that I should just leave, one because I'm a cheat and two because he's so depressed. This just doesn't stop. 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Headwreck

[Headwreck]

33 minutes ago, Ashley said:

I may be wrong, but what I suspect is happening is that there is anxiety there, but you've become so used to it you're not recognising it because it becomes lost in more and more ruminating.

Thanks for the response. I don't know what to do anymore other than just leave my partner, it feels like the right thing to do. Don't know what I think anymore. The other day I was considering this was ocd but now it's made a complete 180 turn on me. Have emailed my therapist but he's not answered, not sure what he could do anyway. 

[Gemma7]

9 minutes ago, Headwreck said:

I've thought this myself with regards to these memories of the thoughts but I feel in my heart that these thoughts were about this.

But this is just going from using thoughts as evidence to feelings as evidence. Feelings are also meaningless, it is us the person with the feeling that gives them meaning. For example, if a belief you hold is you should always be 100% honest, it's natural that a thought about confessing may provoke you to worry you have lied about something. The anxiety you get you use as an indicator that there is truth to the thought, when actually it comes from a fear that you might be lying. You think about it, find a gap or doubt in your memory and there you go, the start of OCD. (This isn't the best example but hopefully you get my point ) 

 

15 minutes ago, Headwreck said:

I don't know how to get out of this.

If i were you I'd start working out what compulsions i was doing that are maintaining my problem and be clear with my therapist what they are. Also, try and give therapy a chance, it takes time

[Franklin12]

I would disagree that ruminating doesn’t make you feel better. I say you as in ‘one’, not you personally as I obviously have not seen inside your head to listen to your ruminating. But for me, whilst it feels as though ruminating feels terrible and you want it to stop, if you ever break down the content of the rumination you might find that it’s a constant back and forth of argument/counter argument. All happening in split seconds. So for example ‘oh no I’m sure I cheated’ (feel bad), ‘but I wouldn’t cheat I’m not like that’ (feel better), ‘but then why do I have this terrible memory of something happening’ (feel bad), ‘it’s probably not a real memory’ (feel better) and so on and so on. Have you ever tried to stop ruminating? Again, from my experience, stopping ruminating increases anxiety hugely. 

[Ashley]

29 minutes ago, Headwreck said:

Thanks for the response. I don't know what to do anymore other than just leave my partner, it feels like the right thing to do. Don't know what I think anymore. 

You could, but doing so would most likely be an OCD compulsion, so relief would happen but not for long. 

[Headwreck]

1 hour ago, Gemma7 said:

But this is just going from using thoughts as evidence to feelings as evidence. Feelings are also meaningless, it is us the person with the feeling that gives them meaning. For example, if a belief you hold is you should always be 100% honest, it's natural that a thought about confessing may provoke you to worry you have lied about something. The anxiety you get you use as an indicator that there is truth to the thought, when actually it comes from a fear that you might be lying. You think about it, find a gap or doubt in your memory and there you go, the start of OCD. (This isn't the best example but hopefully you get my point ) 

 

If i were you I'd start working out what compulsions i was doing that are maintaining my problem and be clear with my therapist what they are. Also, try and give therapy a chance, it takes time

I will try. Thank you. Just having a bad time of it, feel like a complete liar. 

[Headwreck]

1 hour ago, Franklin12 said:

I would disagree that ruminating doesn’t make you feel better. I say you as in ‘one’, not you personally as I obviously have not seen inside your head to listen to your ruminating. But for me, whilst it feels as though ruminating feels terrible and you want it to stop, if you ever break down the content of the rumination you might find that it’s a constant back and forth of argument/counter argument. All happening in split seconds. So for example ‘oh no I’m sure I cheated’ (feel bad), ‘but I wouldn’t cheat I’m not like that’ (feel better), ‘but then why do I have this terrible memory of something happening’ (feel bad), ‘it’s probably not a real memory’ (feel better) and so on and so on. Have you ever tried to stop ruminating? Again, from my experience, stopping ruminating increases anxiety hugely. 

Thanks for the response. I've tried to stop but don't remember if it made me feel worse. I know it was difficult to do but I do think I felt a bit better when it wasn't so prevalent. But in my mind if I stop thinking about it then I'm burying my head in the sand. This was completely different to my belief the other day. 

What is annoying is I had another issue that worried me so much the other day that this took a back seat. The other thing felt devastating but this felt a little trivial. Now I look at the other worry and realise it's nothing but this is absolutely terrible. That makes me question the logic and reality of it even though not sure I should. 

[Emsie]

3 hours ago, Ashley said:

Yes Emsie, sorry I should have been clearer, the suggestion that ruminating causes relief is the part I meant was questionable.   You're right, the more we ruminate in general the more it will cause more doubts, more uncertainty and more worry.

Bless you Ashley, no need to apologise. Thank you so much for clarifying. 

Hope this helped you too Headwreck. 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Emsie

[Emsie]

3 hours ago, Headwreck said:

It's okay I panicked when I read this haha. 

Thank you, so glad you didn't mind me asking. Take care. X

[JennieWren]

Keep going to the therapy!!!! Give it a chance. You can do this!

[Headwreck]

10 hours ago, Gemma7 said:

But this is just going from using thoughts as evidence to feelings as evidence. Feelings are also meaningless, it is us the person with the feeling that gives them meaning. For example, if a belief you hold is you should always be 100% honest, it's natural that a thought about confessing may provoke you to worry you have lied about something. The anxiety you get you use as an indicator that there is truth to the thought, when actually it comes from a fear that you might be lying. You think about it, find a gap or doubt in your memory and there you go, the start of OCD. (This isn't the best example but hopefully you get my point ) 

 

If i were you I'd start working out what compulsions i was doing that are maintaining my problem and be clear with my therapist what they are. Also, try and give therapy a chance, it takes time

I was thinking about this. I keep having these thoughts about knowing I'm a cheat but I don't know what action it pertains to.

You mentioned that you can't trust thoughts but an example keeps coming to mind - if someone remembered thinking that they had to go shopping for someone but couldn't remember why and then realised it was someone's birthday, hence the shopping trip, that would make their thought reliable I think? There would be a point to the thought. There must have been a point or reason behind my thoughts about being a cheat or having something to hide. These were months ago before I was in the throes of this. Is this common with ocd, having thoughts pertaining to something you didn't think happened as I've not seen anything on this? And having a feeling of 'knowing'? Hence the reason I feel I'm in denial, casting everything off as false or misinterpreted in order to try and forge my own innocence through means of labeling truths as mind trickery. 

I'm deeply concerned about my feelings towards this situation now as when this started I'm sure I was adamant that I had no feelings about it before yet now I think I've known and actively hidden it purposefully. I tell my partner I've done something, I must have, so he asks me to tell him what exactly and I don't have a clue. The night in question I'm quite scared to think about as I'm worried I'll have memories which are true but I'll label as false and vice versa but from memories that I know are definitely real and from lack of memory of anything physical then I can't say anything did go on. 

All in all I don't know what to believe, what to think, what to trust, what to discard as junk. I am considering trying to stop ruminating in the hopes that I will gain some kind of clarity of thought. Is this viable? 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Headwreck

[Gemma7]

10 minutes ago, Headwreck said:

if someone remembered thinking that they had to go shopping for someone but couldn't remember why and then realised it was someone's birthday, hence the shopping trip, that would make their thought reliable I think? There would be a point to the thought.

Just to reiterate, all thoughts are unimportant, they just are. The example you've given is a good example of someone knowing a fact. The thought reminds them that it's someone's birthday (a fact), that is why they give it (the thought) the importance to go and buy a birthday card. What OCD sufferers do is feel like they need to go shopping, wander the aisles and buy items that cover every eventuality, at great emotional and physical (and in this shopping example monetary) cost.

If you stop ruminating you will become more clear but you will never know why you had the thought about confessing. The most likely reason is it was just a random thought and unlike the rest of the thoughts you've had in the past year, this is the one that has triggered your OCD, the one you worried the most about. Ruminating only makes you less clear about that so stopping is important.  

[Headwreck]

9 hours ago, Gemma7 said:

Just to reiterate, all thoughts are unimportant, they just are. The example you've given is a good example of someone knowing a fact. The thought reminds them that it's someone's birthday (a fact), that is why they give it (the thought) the importance to go and buy a birthday card. What OCD sufferers do is feel like they need to go shopping, wander the aisles and buy items that cover every eventuality, at great emotional and physical (and in this shopping example monetary) cost.

If you stop ruminating you will become more clear but you will never know why you had the thought about confessing. The most likely reason is it was just a random thought and unlike the rest of the thoughts you've had in the past year, this is the one that has triggered your OCD, the one you worried the most about. Ruminating only makes you less clear about that so stopping is important.  

I think what is keeping this alive is the thoughts I remember having, not only confessing, loads of different ones that allude to me being a cheat but then I ask myself 'what happened then?' and I really don't know. I don't know if I always felt like I had cheated? But the more I think about it the more of these thoughts I'm having about remembering these kind of thoughts I've had in the past. I don't know if I'm just mixing these thoughts up with other things I've thought about or making it match with this because it's what I'm concerned about most right now. 

My partner has said let's just live like nothing has gone on and if something comes up then we will deal with it (as in will split). So now I will have to live on tenterhooks. He says he is certain nothing has happened as he knows me and I wouldn't be able to keep a secret like that, I'd have to confide in somebody as I cannot deal with guilt. But I think I would be able to keep it secret maybe as I was so sure that he had done it to me. People say about this deep rooted 'knowing it's all irrational and false' but I don't have this. 

I'm going to try to stop ruminating today because I'm too upset and too tired. My head aches. It's wearing me down and I feel I might be on the brink of doing something silly because I feel I need to escape. 

[Headwreck]

Oh well. We've split up. I remembered another thought about "if he hasn't cheated then don't say anything as you're not going to do it again are you?", remember where I was when I thought it and what I was doing, it's real before anyone says it's been conjured by this. I can't take it anymore so I have to do the decent thing and go. I think I've overthought so much that I'm refusing to believe the truth. So that's it. Life is finished.