Issues that sit alongside OCD

[taurean]

I agree with snowy. I have a high self-esteem normally, which falls when in the throws of OCD - like depression, it is secondary to an OCD episode. 

My high self-confidence and self-esteem is founded originally on public performances as an amateur singer and actor, then confidence as an outside representative, presenter and speaker. 

I acquired that confidence by standing up despite my initial misgivings and overcoming them - exposing to my fears but realising they were false and unnecessary because I had the knowledge and ability to do this thing. 

When I sought a girlfriend, and lacked confidence I asked them out anyway, and soon acquired that confidence. I didn't feel inferior despite being poor at that time, I saw no reason why I shouldn't make a passable boyfriend. 

If we get intrusions which tell us different, then we don't have to believe them - we can challenge the intrusion. Why shouldn't we make a good boyfriend or girlfriend why shouldn't we make a good writer or speaker - only our inner selves, and belief that we will fail, can make us fail. 

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by taurean
amendment

[gingerbreadgirl]

38 minutes ago, Caramoole said:

I think this is firstly & largely OCD about low self-esteem and to get back to where you were pre-October, it's the OCD that needs working on.  Once back in calmer waters you could perhaps then look at self-esteem issues.

The longer I've had, and observed others with OCD I increasingly believe it isn't necessary to give every different problem a separate label and treat them differently, I think they are often  part and parcel of the same.  

I feel you should stop searching for the perfect answer as to what this is, how you should treat it, whether it's true etc and treat it as OCD.....you're searching, researching, ruminating, thinking obsessively at all times.  Your need to have the answer to all these things is, I reckon 99.99% OCD right now......even if it is cleverly disguised as a legitimate worry.

Work first on the obsessional thinking.....you'll find it will rear up with "But what if I am x, y, z.....what if I am ignoring a real imperfection, what if I should be getting help for low self-esteem, if I find the right answer and can work on those issues it will stop"

Does it sound familiar?

It is easy to become an obsessional thinker and we don't always realise that that is what we're doing much of the time.....or almost all of the time.

This does sound familiar and I think you may have hit the nail on the head here.  Thank you.

[Wonderer]

1 hour ago, snowbear said:

Interesting statement, Wonderer. It made me question why anybody would want to put an upper limit on their self-esteem.  

Is it possible that you (and maybe GBG too) confuse self-esteem with arrogance?  

It's possible to be confident, bubbling over with self-esteem, without being in the least bit arrogant. Two very different things.

Self-esteem can never be too high. It just means having a healthy respect for yourself.   

Yes I see what ur saying, but I was just kidding, I know there’s a difference between being arrogant and having high self esteem! My eldest son has great self esteem and very confident and is not one bit arrogant so I suppose I’d quite like to be like him! X

[gingerbreadgirl]

Hi all,

I had been intending to take a proper break from the forum but here I am again. I know I sound like a total broken record and just want to give myself a good shake. Sorry everyone to go on and on like this.

Anyway so tonight I did a stupid thing and got into a philosophical debate with my OH about what constitutes a bad person.  It didn't really start out as an OCD thing but predictably my OCD has latched onto it - and I have begun ruminating like crazy (why?? why do I do this???) Anyway then I got into a bit of reassurance-seeking about whether I'm good/bad etc.. Predictably it made me feel better for a bit and now it's making me feel worse , because I'm thinking "but what about XYZ..." etc.  AARGH.

So obviously I need to stop ruminating on this, for real.  But should I be thinking "fine, yes, I'm a bad person, so what, even bad people deserve a life" or what? Or do I try and think more positively about myself (or is this reassurance?) I am stuck because general wisdom is to think nice things about yourself, bla bla bla. But ERP would be to go the whole hog and think "yes I am bad. OK fine."  I am torn again.

Also - in general (believe it or not) I am mostly better now than I was a few months ago when I was consumed by OCD.  I am much less consumed now but I do get triggered easily, for example by the conversation tonight.  Should I avoid things which I know will trigger me like this? Is that avoidance or sensible?

Thank you, again.  And sorry!! xx

Edited April 4, 2018 by gingerbreadgirl

[Gemma7]

You need to stop thinking and talking about what is a good and bad person. This discussion isn't helpful because you are applying black and white labels to an incredibly subjective grey area issue. If you went in with the correct perspective that most people are neither all good nor all bad then why have the discussion, it would be over before it begun. 

ERP is about not doing the compulsions you usually do. If you never let yourself think 'I'm a bad person' then thinking it could be part of a behavioural experiment,  but if you can think that freely already then don't bother and work on ERP for actual compulsions you do. 

[taurean]

I think it would have been best had you not entered into that debate GBG, because the likelihood of your OCD flaring up was high. 

Why?  Because the debate was actually on the source theme of this aspect of your OCD. So it was pretty inevitable that the OCD would turn up. 

You don't need to debate this whole am I was I bad thing - you've done it many times, so doing it again in any form is carrying out a compulsion. 

But we shouldn't go around avoiding triggers that happen to come along. 

For me, the way to deal with triggers is :-

In therapy, and in structured ERP, we look at the trigger and consequential thoughts, and relate them to the cognitive knowledge we have about OCD - allowing us to reveal them for what OCD says they are, not what they really are. 

Outside of that, we should not connect, not give belief to them, when they come along - this is where we gently refocus away to a beneficial distraction. 

This is what I have learned from various periods of CBT therapy, with several different  excellent private therapists - and my own experience is that this CBT methodology works if carried out properly. 

Edited April 4, 2018 by taurean

[taurean]

10 minutes ago, Gemma7 said:

You need to stop thinking and talking about what is a good and bad person. This discussion isn't helpful because you are applying black and white labels to an incredibly subjective grey area issue. If you went in with the correct perspective that most people are neither all good nor all bad then why have the discussion, it would be over before it begun. 

Absolutely Gemma - the GBG black and white thinking cognitive distortion is hogging that limelight again, causing her to be stuck in a compulsive time warp of groundhog day nature. 

 

[gingerbreadgirl]

Hi Gemma.  Thanks for your advice, as always. 

3 minutes ago, Gemma7 said:

most people are neither all good nor all bad

But you could argue that some people are all good or bad (which I actually don't think but my OH does) and the discussion was around where the cut-off is.  Prob a bad discussion to have.

6 minutes ago, Gemma7 said:

ERP is about not doing the compulsions you usually do. If you never let yourself think 'I'm a bad person' then thinking it could be part of a behavioural experiment,  but if you can think that freely already then don't bother and work on ERP for actual compulsions you do. 

OK well if you compare it to someone who has OCD about, say, being a paedophile or gay or whatever, then my fear is not dissimilar in terms of the kinds of compulsions I carry out (with my fear of being just generally bad)  And someone with this type of OCD would be encouraged to think "OK, fine I am a paedophile" or "OK fine I am gay" - and sit with that anxiety.  Is this different?

Thank you again.  I know this must be annoying and I really do appreciate your patience.

 

[gingerbreadgirl]

5 minutes ago, taurean said:

I think it would have been best had you not entered into that debate GBG, because the likelihood of your OCD flaring up was high. 

Why?  Because the debate was actually on the source theme of this aspect of your OCD. So it was pretty inevitable that the OCD would turn up. 

You don't need to debate this whole am I was I bad thing - you've done it many times, so doing it again in any form is carrying out a compulsion. 

But we shouldn't go around avoiding triggers that happen to come along. 

For me, the way to deal with triggers is :-

In therapy, and in structured ERP, we look at the trigger and consequential thoughts, and relate them to the cognitive knowledge we have about OCD - allowing us to reveal them for what OCD says they are, not what they really are. 

Outside of that, we should not connect, not give belief to them, when they come along - this is where we gently refocus away to a beneficial distraction. 

This is what I have learned from various periods of CBT therapy, with several different  excellent private therapists - and my own experience is that this CBT methodology works if carried out properly. 

Thank you Roy, good advice as always and much appreciated x

[Gemma7]

4 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

you could argue that some people are all good or bad (which I actually don't think but my OH does)

You could argue anything you want,  doesn't mean you should!

 

5 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

OK well if you compare it to someone who has OCD about, say, being a paedophile or gay or whatever, then my fear is not dissimilar in terms of the kinds of compulsions I carry out (with my fear of being just generally bad)  And someone with this type of OCD would be encouraged to think "OK, fine I am a paedophile" or "OK fine I am gay" - and sit with that anxiety.  Is this different?

What compulsions anyone does matters, it is those behaviours that keep OCD going. Think something if it causes you anxiety, but ERP is about response prevention, so it's important you know what compulsions you are not doing after you have thought something on purpose. Thinking something only deals with thinking based compulsions too, most people have lots of avoidance behaviours that increase the likelihood of rumination. If you don't tackle those then you'll always be fighting rumination. 

[gingerbreadgirl]

1 minute ago, Gemma7 said:

You could argue anything you want,  doesn't mean you should!

But we've always had these types of conversations, it wasn't OCD-based (to begin with) it was just the kind of debate we get into, we debate all kinds of stupid stuff which has no answer but it's interesting anyway, to not talk about it cos of OCD would be avoidance surely.  I appreciate this was probably a bad time to talk about this and probably both me and my OH should have seen it coming but there we go.

4 minutes ago, Gemma7 said:

What compulsions anyone does matters, it is those behaviours that keep OCD going. Think something if it causes you anxiety, but ERP is about response prevention, so it's important you know what compulsions you are not doing after you have thought something on purpose. Thinking something only deals with thinking based compulsions too, most people have lots of avoidance behaviours that increase the likelihood of rumination. If you don't tackle those then you'll always be fighting rumination. 
 

I think pretty much all my compulsions, if that's what they are anyway, are about trying to figure out once and for all whether I am a good person, which obviously I can never do because there is no objective answer.  So my thinking is that accepting "I'm a bad person" and then feeling how that makes me feel but without doing any ruminating is a good idea.  But then there's also the fact that sometimes I deliberately think that I'm bad because it feels like I'm getting certainty that way, or punishing myself or whatever.  I just don't know really.

Thanks again.

[Gemma7]

7 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

to not talk about it cos of OCD would be avoidance surely. 

You can talk about what you want but people usually don't have fun and casual debates about stuff they are highly anxious about. You need to make up your own mind about good and bad and hold to that. You rely too much on your partners opinion without having your own, this makes you question and doubt yourself. If you went in to the debate believing that good and bad are on a subjective sliding scale then would this have upset you as much? 

 

14 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

So my thinking is that accepting "I'm a bad person" and then feeling how that makes me feel but without doing any ruminating is a good idea.  But then there's also the fact that sometimes I deliberately think that I'm bad because it feels like I'm getting certainty that way, or punishing myself or whatever. 

This for me is the problem with just thinking 'I'm a bad person', it isn't targeting your compulsions, instead it's answering a question that can't be answered. If sometimes thinking 'I'm bad' is like a compulsion because of certainty then to me you need to leave the questions be. You say you try to figure stuff out, with rumination? Do you check memories or look on the internet? What do you avoid? These are the things to work on that you know keep you stuck. 

[taurean]

12 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

So my thinking is that accepting "I'm a bad person" and then feeling how that makes me feel but without doing any ruminating is a good idea.  But then there's also the fact that sometimes I deliberately think that I'm bad because it feels like I'm getting certainty that way, or punishing myself or whatever.  I just don't know reall

This is where it goes wrong GBG. You have turned yourself into an experiment, matter in a test-tube to observe and judge on various past and present issues and hypotheses. 

We don't need to that. I have done bad things - but they were dealt with and then forgotten about. I am not continuing to torture myself about them - they are done and dusted. 

That's the normal way we respond to such things. That needs to be your aim in therapy. 

And you really do need to work on that black and white thinking. Remember what I said about me helping my mother-in-law with her black and white thinking, and my wife with her mind-reading - both cognitive thinking distortions. 

I showed them how using CBT can tackle and overcome this - it is so very doable. 

[taurean]

When we have come through working CBT correctly, the magic feeling when triggers no longer bite is just tremendous. 

Everywhere I went I was prone to headlines, posters, film adverts on buses - triggering me. 

But I don't notice them like that anymore. For example I have been into Northampton shopping today. Using the buses, walking the streets passing the cinema. And reading the Times. I don't recall noticing, and I don't remember, any such trigger. 

Why?  Well they were still there - but my brain wasn't scanning for them, not focusing - not making an OCD connection not personalising. Because my brain has retrained to see them in the normal light that others do. 

But better still, I didn't consciously notice any such issue. I will have simply not made such connections to what I must have caught sight of - they didn't register. 

This is what happens in CBT when we have worked the therapy correctly. 

And it is why I am focusing my topics and responses onto how and what CBT can do for OCD sufferers. 

Edited April 4, 2018 by taurean
typos

[gingerbreadgirl]

56 minutes ago, Gemma7 said:

You can talk about what you want but people usually don't have fun and casual debates about stuff they are highly anxious about. You need to make up your own mind about good and bad and hold to that. You rely too much on your partners opinion without having your own, this makes you question and doubt yourself. If you went in to the debate believing that good and bad are on a subjective sliding scale then would this have upset you as much?

I guess honestly I was hoping she'd agree with me (i.e. no such thing as a bad person) because it would mean I couldn't be one either.  I did hold to my opinion, though.  It was only after really that it got me and I started asking her opinion of me, whether she trusted me etc.

56 minutes ago, Gemma7 said:

 You say you try to figure stuff out, with rumination? Do you check memories or look on the internet?

Yes to all 3 although I have got much better with the internet checking.

56 minutes ago, Gemma7 said:

What do you avoid? 

The main thing I avoid is anything that could be considered dishonest/immoral or could be disapproved of.  The thing that bothers me the most is monitoring my actions and thoughts for anything that I might need to confess, then either avoiding it or owning up to it.  I think this is keeping me stuck the most.

56 minutes ago, Gemma7 said:

 These are the things to work on that you know keep you stuck. 

Thank you.  I think I do get all this stuff.  I suppose to me this feels more complicated than other OCD spells I've had in the past because I do think there is non-OCD stuff tied up in it too, and that's what I don't know how to deal with. (In fact my biggest worry of all is that this isn't OCD at all.)

Thank you again, really.  I hope you are doing OK? x

Edited April 4, 2018 by gingerbreadgirl

[gingerbreadgirl]

41 minutes ago, taurean said:

And you really do need to work on that black and white thinking. Remember what I said about me helping my mother-in-law with her black and white thinking, and my wife with her mind-reading - both cognitive thinking distortions. 

I showed them how using CBT can tackle and overcome this - it is so very doable. 

Thanks Roy.  I do definitely need to work on this.  (It feels like all of a sudden I have to work on so many things!)  x

[taurean]

5 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

Thanks Roy.  I do definitely need to work on this.  (It feels like all of a sudden I have to work on so many things!)  x

Take it gently, as and when ; small steps. 

And remember that summary of key issues I did for you a while back. A precis, a short succinct summary, is a great way to get to grip with issues without being overwhelmed by them. 

 

[Gemma7]

10 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

I suppose to me this feels more complicated than other OCD spells I've had in the past because I do think there is non-OCD stuff tied up in it too, and that's what I don't know how to deal with

It is difficult, but start with whatever is causing you the most problems, don't worry about tackling everything at once. For instance, if there's a current obsession compulsion cycle then focus on breaking that. After that you can focus on general behaviours that keep OCD coming back. 

I'm ok thanks, apart from OCD obviously

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thank you both.

[gingerbreadgirl]

Can I ask - last question I promise - but does this seem to you like OCD, or like low self-confidence etc? Primarily I mean.

(I really am sorry for being such a pain!! I think Roy summed it up pretty well with "Groundhog day". )

8 minutes ago, Gemma7 said:

I'm ok thanks, apart from OCD obviously

I really really hope you are able to crack this one day.  You have such a great handle on CBT.  You deserve to beat this x

[taurean]

You've asked that one before GBG and, as the Prime Minister tends to say in prime minister's questions, "I refer the honourable member to the answer I gave before"

 

Edited April 4, 2018 by taurean

[Gemma7]

1 minute ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

Can I ask - last question I promise - but does this seem to you like OCD, or like low self-confidence etc? Primarily I mean.

Is this reassurance seeking I'm not sure but I'll answer, it seems more like OCD to me. You seem worried that you're a bad person (theory B). 

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thanks both. x

[taurean]

10 minutes ago, Gemma7 said:

Is this reassurance seeking I'm not sure but I'll answer, it seems more like OCD to me. You seem worried that you're a bad person (theory B). 

The clue is in the topic title - issues that sit alongside OCD. 

The low self-esteem here is sitting alongside the OCD, hindering but not the prime problem, which is that OCD core belief "I must have been /must be bad. And I need to be punished". 

And if we feel like that, then sure our self-esteem is going to plummet. 

But those bad things I have previously done, which are forgiven forgotten and cauterized, aren't in my mind and don't effect my self-esteem, which is normally pretty high. 

(In an OCD episode it falls as a direct consequence of the OCD in my own case). 

Edited April 4, 2018 by taurean

[Gemma7]

17 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

You deserve to beat this x

Thanks GBG, you too