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Issues that sit alongside OCD


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You both deserve it, and I think you will do so. 

GBG,  changing our behavioural response habits is a tough ask, but I know that it can be done and am benefiting so much from that. 

You can do this. 

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11 minutes ago, taurean said:

And if we feel like that, then sure our self-esteem is going to plummet.

 I do think in my case at least the low self esteem (or whatever you want to call it) came first, I think OCD is a result of that, not the other way round.  (For me).  Really though that is just speculation and you're right that OCD is the most pressing thing right now, and I just have to take the good old leap of faith with this.

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2 minutes ago, taurean said:

changing our behavioural response habits is a tough ask, but I know that it can be done and am benefiting so much from that.

You are very inspiring here Roy, we all have a lot to learn from how you've beaten this.

It's annoying because I have beaten it in the past (or at least I thought I had), I have been almost completely free of this for long periods of time.  This feels so different, like chugging in the snow and getting nowhere.  I honestly feel like a totally different person to who I was before October last year, and not sure I'm keen on this new version of me! But I'm not giving up, just got to stop doing all the wrong things I guess!

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Gosh this one has got me at the minute too - my oldest and most stubborn theme has reared its head of late. My fear is that my work has mistakes in and sometime in the future, when it’s too late to correct the mistakes, they will be discovered and I will be exposed as a complete fraud who everyone thought could do their job but actually they’re rubbish. All those tuts, sad faces and shaking heads. 

Anyway I really want to work on this because it causes me huge anxiety and prevents me doing a lot of things at work that I should, for fear I will be found out. But my dilemma - in an OCD way I should expose myself to the fear that yes, my work is full of mistakes, I am terrible at my job, and I will be exposed as a big fraud. But I don’t feel like this helps my self-esteem - shouldn’t I be thinking ‘no, I’m decent and capable at my job’? Shouldn’t I be starting to send my brain positive messages about myself? I really don’t know. It’s funny but it feels REALLY wrong and risky to tell myself I do a good job at work. I feel like if I let go, I won’t be prepared when things do go wrong. I think that’s my worst fear - emotional shock. If I constantly tell myself I’m rubbish then it won’t hurt so much when I fail. I know how ridiculous a strategy that is and it isn’t conscious, but it really does feel odd to allow myself to think positively about myself. 

Anyway im hoping someone has the answer - how to do positive thinking without it being reassurance.

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OK Franklin. 

Write down each of those fears on a piece of paper. See how those core beliefs cause you the response of carrying out compulsions - but understand now that they are not the answer, they make things worse. 

Since the OCD is telling you you have made a mistake, you'll get found out, you'll be thought rubbish at your job - then catastrophising - understand that chanting away in your mental chatter that you are good, you won't have made a mistake is a neutralising compulsion - exactly the wrong thing to be doing. 

Look at the various core beliefs you have written down that underpin your fear. 

Now tell yourself that OCD is an out and out liar, a twister of the truth 

Tell yourself therefore there is nothing to fear - you are suffering from OCD. 

As a professional during my career I had attempts from OCD to hit me with similar themes. But I understood how it works, I could see what it was trying to do. And I knew the real me is an organised, careful, thorough, knowledgeable and experienced person. 

So I refused to be taken in by it and gave it no belief - gently but firmly easing my mind away from that OCD thinking. 

I did it, so can you.

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Hi Franklin,

You seem to be giving yourself two 'opposing' options here that aren't actually opposites. :unsure: 

1. Avoid doing anything that could result in making a mistake OR

2. Expose yourself to doing things that mean you will be found out as a fraud. 

That hidden step where you gave meaning to the exposure exercise (the outcome will be what you fear) is the problem.

19 minutes ago, Franklin12 said:

But my dilemma - in an OCD way I should expose myself to the fear that yes, my work is full of mistakes, I am terrible at my job, and I will be exposed as a big fraud. But I don’t feel like this helps my self-esteem - shouldn’t I be thinking ‘no, I’m decent and capable at my job’?

Yes, you need to expose yourself to the fear - by doing things that carry the possibility of making an error.

The exposure isn't  telling yourself 'I'm bad at my job' :no:  Doing the exposure should, if anything, improve your self-esteem. You get proof that you can do your job without making the mistakes you feared you would make, resulting in affirming thoughts such as 'I'm good at my job.'

The fear that you may be bad at your job is what makes your self-esteem plummet and avoidance keeps your self-esteem low. Face up to the fear and your self-esteem can increase.

So they are linked, but perhaps not in the way you thought.  :) 

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I think I’m doing something wrong though, because I do do my job, but through clenched teeth and fear a lot of the time. So I’m doing the exposure (albeit I do avoid some things that I can get away which I shouldn’t), but it’s like the fear gets worse, because if I do a good job one time, it just adds pressure that people assume I won’t mess up next time - and the more I do without messing up, the higher the expectations, and the more responsibility I get, and the more I freak out! I keep getting higher to fall!

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3 minutes ago, Franklin12 said:

I think I’m doing something wrong though

Maybe it's the meaning you give to what you're doing.

4 minutes ago, Franklin12 said:

because if I do a good job one time, it just adds pressure that people assume I won’t mess up next time

and the more I do without messing up, the higher the expectations

and the more responsibility I get, I keep getting higher to fall!

These are interpretations you're making, not facts. 

Do a good job and it means you've done a good job on that occasion. Nothing more, nothing less. The rest is you adding meaning.

Assuming others will develop higher expectations and that you're setting yourself up for a fall - these too are meanings you've added to the simple act of doing your job.

Trick is to catch yourself giving meaning to something. There'll be a lot of inner dialogue going on with presumptions and assumptions and emotional interpretation that lead you to conclude whatever meaning you've put on it. Separate what you have to do and the added layers of what you think it means to have to do it. :) 

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Trying a new angle.

 

Same over and over, again Ginger. I have done the work 1 month and i am a lot better. I did it. Nobody else will do it Ginger. 

NOW to the real world. I wish i never wasted so much time on it!!! Daamn we waste so much time on OCD.i just realized today once again

How long will you give it Ginger? Is the last thing you will think about before you die this OCD-thought? Because it will not go away by some happy accident. That is unrealistic if abything

Edited by Isthisreality
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Hi Franklin,

Sorry to hear you are struggling at the moment.  I can identify with some of what you say about work.  I have an audit coming up soon in my job and I worry that it will unearth all kinds of mistakes and wrongdoing etc.

6 hours ago, Franklin12 said:

how to do positive thinking without it being reassurance.

This is exactly the dilemma I have as well (and you've put it a lot more succinctly than all my rambles above! :) ) Self-care/boosting self-esteem can seem so at odds with OCD exposure.

I don't have the answers to this (clearly!), but my thinking is similar to that of Snowbear and Roy.  You have appied a black-and-white interpretation to your job performance.  I think that rather than thinking in either/or terms (EITHER exposure to being "rubbish at your job " OR boosting your self-esteem) what you need to do is expose yourself to the grey area in between.  So this would mean doing your job but without overthinking it either way.  Accepting the possibility that maybe you've messed up, maybe you haven't, maybe you'll never know, maybe you'll be exposed as a fraud, maybe you won't.  And then sit with that anxiety without trying to counteract it, and without going down the self-punishment route either (for example where you say this):

6 hours ago, Franklin12 said:

 If I constantly tell myself I’m rubbish then it won’t hurt so much when I fail.

This is something I do as well and it's a compulsion too, an attempt to rid yourself of anxiety/uncertainty another way.

So my advice to you would be to do your job to an 'OK' level, and then allow yourself to be uncertain about this, without trying to pin it down either way.  

One thing I've also realised is that self-care can be a kind of exposure. When I feel anxious about whether I'm good/bad etc. my instinct is to avoid things I enjoy because I "don't deserve it".  But this is a kind of compulsion too. I've found that being kind to myself when I feel anxious is actually a kind of exposure.  It feels wrong and undeserving.  But doing it anyway exposes my brain to this discomfort and teaches it that self-care is OK even if I've messed up.  I don't know if this chimes with your experience but it's what I've found.  So maybe you could do your job to an "OK" level, don't analyse this or ruminate on it, sit in the grey area, feel your discomfort and anxiety rise - and be really kind to yourself in the meantime, do something you enjoy, even if (especially if) it goes against your instinct to berate yourself.

Hope you feel better soon and you can put this theme to rest x

Edited by gingerbreadgirl
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6 hours ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

Self-care/boosting self-esteem can seem so at odds with OCD exposure.

This is strange that both you and Franklin feel this way. Maybe there's been some confusion about what you're meant to do to tackle OCD, because exposure should not be at odds with boosting self-esteem at all. 

Edited by Gemma7
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3 minutes ago, Gemma7 said:

This is strange that both you and Franklin feel this way. Maybe there's been some confusion about what you're meant to do to tackle OCD, because exposure should not be at odds with boosting self-esteem at all. 

I don't think this about ERP in general but I do find that for this specific fear - i.e. being a bad person - exposing yourself to that fear does conflict with general wisdom about boosting self-esteem. 

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7 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

I don't think this about ERP in general but I do find that for this specific fear - i.e. being a bad person - exposing yourself to that fear does conflict with general wisdom about boosting self-esteem. 

But this isn't what therapy does. It's about seeing if your problem is worrying you're a bad person rather than being a bad person. It's about not doing compulsions in a situation you normally would and finding out if you feel better or worse, it is not about exposing yourself to the idea you are a bad person. 

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Just now, Gemma7 said:

But this isn't what therapy does. It's about seeing if your problem is worrying you're a bad person rather than being a bad person. It's about not doing compulsions in a situation you normally would and finding out if you feel better or worse, it is not about exposing yourself to the idea you are a bad person. 

Yeah I see what you're saying, I do.  But if your compulsion is finding ways to guarantee that you're a good person (e.g.), and exposure involves embracing the possibility of being a bad person, then this does conflict with conventional wisdom about building self esteem (e.g. listing good qualities etc. which is what I was encouraged to do in therapy.) Regardless of whether this is correct or not, it's how it feels to me and it seems Franklin too.  

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1 minute ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

But if your compulsion is finding ways to guarantee that you're a good person (e.g.), and exposure involves embracing the possibility of being a bad person,

But exposure doesn't involve embracing the possibility of being a bad person. That's still buying in to black and white thinking which is why therapy wouldn't encourage that. Therapy is about finding out that all the compulsions you do are the reason you feel like a bad person. They are the cause of all your problems. Not doing the compulsions is what both you and Franklin need to do, set up in therapy as a behavioural experiment. 

 

6 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

Regardless of whether this is correct or not, it's how it feels to me and it seems Franklin too. 

I understand that, I just think it's important to recognise because this could be where a lot of people are going wrong :)

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2 minutes ago, Gemma7 said:

But exposure doesn't involve embracing the possibility of being a bad person.

I sometimes feel as if I have totally misunderstood the nature of CBT but my understanding is that allowing for uncertainty is a huge component of it.  So in this case, allowing for the possibility of being a bad person (or a murderer, or contaminated, or whatever) is part of therapy, a huge part of it.  Whereas conventional 'self-esteem building' is absolutely not about this.

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Yes uncertainty is something you have to accept, that is you have to stop doing compulsions without knowing for sure that things will be OK, but the goal is to find out if your compulsions are your problem. How therapy for OCD and self-esteem go together is that in both instances you find that safety behaviours are what undermine how you feel about yourself.

So for example, say you don't say your own opinion even though you disagree with someone, this might undermine your self-esteem because indirectly it says your opinion is worth less or that it's wrong, for OCD it might mean that you can't be right because you're a bad person who can't judge situations correctly. This safety behaviour buys into OCD and lowers self-esteem. For OCD, saying your opinion is a risk because people may say you're wrong,  that thinking that says something about who you are, making it feel like your being a bad person fear is right, with self-esteem your opinion may get laughed at lowering it further. Therapy for both says that you shouldn't do the safety behaviours because firstly you are just worried you're a bad person and you only believe your judgement to be wrong because of all the compulsions you do and secondly for self-esteem because not saying your opinion says you are less worthy than others and you deserve to be heard equally to everyone else. 

This is why they can be worked together, because it's about showing yourself that how you treat yourself and what you do is the problem, NOT who you are. 

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58 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

I don't think this about ERP in general but I do find that for this specific fear - i.e. being a bad person - exposing yourself to that fear does conflict with general wisdom about boosting self-esteem. 

More arguing with the OCD. You should forbid yourself to think about OCD because of your theme. But it is up to you

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Thanks for this useful discussion. It does all make sense. I’m never sure where my self-esteem is. I think I actually think I’m great, but just that I do things that are bad, thus letting myself down. 

So for me, what is my experiment? My ultimate fear is feeling bad. So I only fear making mistakes because that leads to guilt and shame, and I don’t like those. I don’t actually really care about mistakes, and I know everyone makes them etc etc. I especially don’t like an unexpected short sharp shock of guilt and shame. That’s the reason I do my safety behaviours - to numb the potential shock - take the sting out of it. Logically I know that this is stupid and that I live my life with chronic mild bad feelings to avoid an acite episode of very intense bad feelings. 

So my experiment would be what? That I wouldn’t feel bad? Because I would. That I wouldn’t make a mistake? Well I do make mistakes like everyone of course. That it doesn’t matter if I do make a mistake? Or that I get over? 

I do know logically that I need to let go of trying to control this but of course it’s easier said than done. I have had success in other areas, by just letting go. This is my stubborn nemesis.

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2 minutes ago, Isthisreality said:

More arguing with the OCD. You should forbid yourself to think about OCD because of your theme. But it is up to you

Hi isthisreality.  I understand what you're saying - but not everything I do or say is driven by OCD and I am generally not keen on being minimised to a disorder like this whenever I question anything to do with treatment.  I have had CBT for low self-esteem before and it was very at odds with treatment for OCD.  What Gemma says makes a lot more sense and my understanding is better now as a result of raising this. 

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4 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

Hi isthisreality.  I understand what you're saying - but not everything I do or say is driven by OCD and I am generally not keen on being minimised to a disorder like this whenever I question anything to do with treatment.  I have had CBT for low self-esteem before and it was very at odds with treatment for OCD.  What Gemma says makes a lot more sense and my understanding is better now as a result of raising this. 

It is OCD i am 100 certain

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5 minutes ago, Franklin12 said:

 I think I actually think I’m great, but just that I do things that are bad, thus letting myself down. 

It's interesting you feel this way because I feel the opposite.  I feel like it doesn't matter what i do, how good it is, it doesn't change the fact that I am inherently "bad" on the inside and I am just successfully hiding it.  Funny how things can present in a similar way but feel so different. 

I think what you need to do is expose yourself to the possibility of feeling bad, just as everyone else does, and live with that uncertainty and possibility without trying to mitigate it, just allowing it to be a grey area. 

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Ha ha that is strange! Completely opposite! Well I’m exposing myself now - work is incredibly stressful and I feel like any time now is my fall from grace. I am already in flight mode, mentally resigning and going to live on a small holding with some chickens.

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