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Packed a suitcase, do I need to stay somewhere?


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I currently live with my parents and younger brother. My parents leave for work in the morning. My brother is feeling very full and I think (but he has not said) nauseous. 

I am very severely Emetophobic (vomit phobic) and scared that I will be left in the house tomorrow with my brother vomiting and also that it might potentially be contagious (which means that everything around the house will also be contaminated). 

I have packed a bag and I plan to book a hotel if he does throw-up tonight or in the morning but am I just panicking? 

Edited by BelAnna
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I know what I think, how about you Anna?

You say you have Emetophobia, a phobia.....not nice at all but is avoidance the most effective behaviour to address a phobia?  I'm sure you know it's not and only serves to maintain an already intolerable situation.  

Phobia's and OCD are treatable, albeit that the experience can be scary and more than challenging....but so is living life this way.  That's a living hell. Are you ready to make those scary changes?  You've been running away from fear for many years and it just doesn't work Anna.  If I were in your shoes I'd have to ask myself whether running (and still not escaping fear)was a better option than feeling fear and finding more effective ways to try and survive and work through it.

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I get it completely, that's exactly what I would want to do, get as far away as possible. In fact I have done that in the past. Which is probably why I still have this phobia after 31 years. 

You and I both know that running away will keep the fear going. I understand how hard it is but try to stay in the house and face the situation. 

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Of course you shouldn’t be going anywhere, 99.9% of people would not pack a suitcase and go to a hotel because as much as they hope they won’t catch the bug, they know that at the end of the day it won’t be pleasant but they aren’t terrified of it. Stick it out. Have u had any therapy for this? X

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Put it this way, the hotel is no cleaner either, with hundreds of guests moving in and out everyday. I am quite sure there will also be kids and babies throwing up here and there too.

In my humble opinion, it is not the place where you are situated, that matters, it is how you deal with the fear that is most important.

 

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Thanks everyone! 

11 hours ago, Caramoole said:

I know what I think, how about you Anna?

You say you have Emetophobia, a phobia.....not nice at all but is avoidance the most effective behaviour to address a phobia?  I'm sure you know it's not and only serves to maintain an already intolerable situation.  

Phobia's and OCD are treatable, albeit that the experience can be scary and more than challenging....but so is living life this way.  That's a living hell. Are you ready to make those scary changes?  You've been running away from fear for many years and it just doesn't work Anna.  If I were in your shoes I'd have to ask myself whether running (and still not escaping fear)was a better option than feeling fear and finding more effective ways to try and survive and work through it.

Thanks Caramoole, I do know but it's difficult to explain the level of fear. Also Emetophobia is quite a complex rather than simple phobia in that it's not just fear of vomit but of any bodily sensations associated with vomiting; of tons of situations where someone might throw-up/spread sickness bugs etc (so public toilets, cinemas, hospitals, GP surgeries, all public transport, cars, theme parks, shops/ shopping centres, even pavements). 

I think because I've had Emetophobia and OCD since I was 7 I've never known life without it and I'm going to have to learn to self-soothe from the anxiety and to face it but it's very difficult. As my OCD has treated me to several themes/obsessions it can also feel as though I start working on one 'theme' only for another to get worse! 

With standard contamination OCD you might do exposure work and then realise that everything is fine. With Emetophobia there is always the chance that I will actually contract a stomach bug or see someone being sick so that my feared event is not very unlikely. This then seems to reinforce my fear so that each time I've made progress in the past I've then experienced seeing someone throw up or hearing about someone being sick and it has then increased my fear and resultant contamination OCD. I do waste a lot of time worrying though. 

3 hours ago, legalseagull said:

I get it completely, that's exactly what I would want to do, get as far away as possible. In fact I have done that in the past. Which is probably why I still have this phobia after 31 years. 

You and I both know that running away will keep the fear going. I understand how hard it is but try to stay in the house and face the situation. 

Yes it's so difficult! Luckily in this instance my brother is fine but I did panic for a while until I was sure. Have you ever managed to stay in the house with someone who has Norovirus/a stomach bug? As an older child I used to escape to my Gran's house, then in my twenties I escaped to my University flat if someone was ill at home (and vice versa) so I've never really been around for it. I hate the not knowing when the virus might hit etc. and I'm not sure if I can ever get to the state of being ok about it!

2 hours ago, Wonderer said:

Of course you shouldn’t be going anywhere, 99.9% of people would not pack a suitcase and go to a hotel because as much as they hope they won’t catch the bug, they know that at the end of the day it won’t be pleasant but they aren’t terrified of it. Stick it out. Have u had any therapy for this? X

Yes, you're right. I don't understand though why non-emetophobes/normal people do go on at length about how horrible stomach bugs are when they've had one (e.g. I've heard "I felt like I was dying") and yet not fear contracting bugs! I have had quite a  lot of therapy (including a three month hospital stay, CBT, 5 years of Clinical psychologist sessions, 6 months of Counselling Psychology sessions but I haven't managed to overcome it yet!). 

28 minutes ago, St Mike said:

Put it this way, the hotel is no cleaner either, with hundreds of guests moving in and out everyday. I am quite sure there will also be kids and babies throwing up here and there too.

In my humble opinion, it is not the place where you are situated, that matters, it is how you deal with the fear that is most important.

 

Hi St Mike, 

Yes I would be worried about the cleanliness of a hotel too and it is something I think about when I have to stay in a hotel however in a situation where I definitely know that someone is potentially contagious with a stomach bug at home then I would rather take my chance in a hotel as the risk there is much smaller in that situation. 

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In your reply to Caramoole you try to differentiate emetophobia from other phobias by calling it complex. Oh no. It's like you are trying to justify it by making it sound worse.

Emetophobia is, at it's core, like all other phobias, an irrational fear. 

You can do ERP with emetophobia just as easily as with any other phobia.

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39 minutes ago, BelAnna said:

With standard contamination OCD you might do exposure work and then realise that everything is fine. With Emetophobia there is always the chance that I will actually contract a stomach bug or see someone being sick so that my feared event is not very unlikely.

I get what you're saying here, and in that case your CBT work should focus on reducing the level of fear you feel about vomiting or contracting a bug. Yes there is a chance you can catch a bug like any of us can, but most people don't worry about it all the time and if they did get a bug they would find it a bit annoying but it wouldn't be anything that they were really afraid of or upset about. You are therefore correct in that your feared event is not unlikely but it is not an event that needs to be feared, hence this is where your focus should be in terms of your CBT work.

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44 minutes ago, BelAnna said:

Have you ever managed to stay in the house with someone who has Norovirus/a stomach bug?

I worked on a hospital ward where there were regular norovirus or RSV outbreaks. I've caught it twice in the last 2 years. I was ill for a few days and it was quite unpleasant, but it was over soon enough and I went back to work and everything went back to normal.

You need to target the irrational fear response that you have as actually catching it really is nothing to be afraid of.

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Hi Anna

Honestly, I do understand the level of fear that this creates for you but that level of fear is compounding year on year by avoidance.  I truly do feel for you because you must feel wretched but there are an awful lot of BUT's that are maintaining and sustaining your fear.

What is it do you think it is that is stopping your treatment being successful?  Do you have a personal view as to why it might be?  Can you say that you've engaged fully with the tasks that have been suggested or is it that you withdraw because the fear is too much?

4 hours ago, BelAnna said:

but it's very difficult. As my OCD has treated me to several themes/obsessions it can also feel as though I start working on one 'theme' only for another to get worse! 

I think working on each type, each manifestation is a possible problem, there are so many and as you say others arise or get worse.  But as we often discuss, the particular fear isn't the issue.....it's dealing with the fear of fear (whatever that is).  The physical manifestation of anxiety symptoms, the escalation of self-talk and catastrophic thoughts, the avoidance behaviours, the multiple compulsions.

You are clearly a very intelligent woman Anna, very much so.....but I worry sometimes about the amount of research you do and time spent looking at cause, at cure, at the science behind it etc etc.  I really understand it's out of complete desperation but as yet, there isn't anything dynamic out there to solve this for you.  I'd love to see you putting that aside for now, to remove yourself from constantly researching OCD and pointing that energy and need back onto looking at better ways to help you deal with the extreme sensations of fear which are the route cause of the anxiety, phobia's and OCD.  

Caramoole :) 

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I have to agree with polar bear in that emetophobia is no different actually to a contamination OCD situation, there is always a small risk of anything, including what people with contamination OCD worry about, if there was no such thing as a risk the obsession probably would never take hold in the first place! The point is not to convince ourselves that there’s no risk but to be comfortable with the fact that there’s a small risk but that’s juts life and to learn how to manage the anxiety surrounding it! I am sorry that U have had sooo much treatment around this with no success so far, but you can still get over it if u try, the best way being not to avoid these situations, in a normal setting people do take slight precautions if a family member is carrying an infectious bug, such as not drinking from the same cup or using clean towels etc but they wouldn’t move out til it was done with! X

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Hi Anna

Yes I have managed to stay in the house when someone had a bug, quite a few times. But only by carrying out constant safety behaviours and avoidance so I'm not a good example! 

Of course the healthy thing to do would be to stick around and take minimal 'normal' precautions. Don't feel bad if that's not achievable at the moment - that's like being thrown in at the deep end. But make sure you carry on with the therapy and take those steps in the right direction.

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Thanks for your replies and help.

20 hours ago, PolarBear said:

In your reply to Caramoole you try to differentiate emetophobia from other phobias by calling it complex. Oh no. It's like you are trying to justify it by making it sound worse.

Emetophobia is, at it's core, like all other phobias, an irrational fear. 

You can do ERP with emetophobia just as easily as with any other phobia.

Hi PolarBear,

'Emetophobia' meets the medical diagnostic criteria for a 'Complex' phobia (like Agoraphobia) rather than a simple phobia (like Arachnophobia). If you think that an Arachnophobic person does not live in fear all the time but only when they see a very specific stimulus (i.e. spider)- you can see that it is a simple phobia- it responds to ERP like any simple phobia.

Emetophobia is just more like a form of OCD, which of course can be treated with CBT including therapy that focuses on the Cognitive side of things, rather than just ERP but it spans multiple situations, occurs in the absence of the specific stimulus and has a more irrational basis than a simple phobia. 

20 hours ago, Lynz said:

I worked on a hospital ward where there were regular norovirus or RSV outbreaks. I've caught it twice in the last 2 years. I was ill for a few days and it was quite unpleasant, but it was over soon enough and I went back to work and everything went back to normal.

You need to target the irrational fear response that you have as actually catching it really is nothing to be afraid of.

Hi Lynz,

That's great that you are not fearful of contracting Norovirus and didn't find it too terrible.

I'm not sure how to get a handle on my fear really. In therapy I've worked through the origins of my fear, used ERP techniques (such as watching youtube clips of people throwing up, listening to sounds of people vomiting on a CD and watching TV programmes where someone vomits etc., looking at a vomit-like concoction in a toilet [my CBT therapist put vegetable soup in the toilet bowl!!] etc etc.). I've discussed issues/themes such as 'loss of control', 'embarrassment' etc. but none of it really helps! 

20 hours ago, Lynz said:

I get what you're saying here, and in that case your CBT work should focus on reducing the level of fear you feel about vomiting or contracting a bug. Yes there is a chance you can catch a bug like any of us can, but most people don't worry about it all the time and if they did get a bug they would find it a bit annoying but it wouldn't be anything that they were really afraid of or upset about. You are therefore correct in that your feared event is not unlikely but it is not an event that needs to be feared, hence this is where your focus should be in terms of your CBT work.

19 hours ago, Caramoole said:

Hi Anna

Honestly, I do understand the level of fear that this creates for you but that level of fear is compounding year on year by avoidance.  I truly do feel for you because you must feel wretched but there are an awful lot of BUT's that are maintaining and sustaining your fear.

What is it do you thinks that is stopping your treatment being successful?  Do you have a personal view as to why it might be?  Can you say that you've engaged fully with the tasks that have been suggested or is it that you withdraw because the fear is too much?

I think working on each type, each manifestation is a possible problem, there are so many and as you say others arise or get worse.  But as we often discuss, the particular fear isn't the issue.....it's dealing with the fear of fear (whatever that is).  The physical manifestation of anxiety symptoms, the escalation of self-talk and catastrophic thoughts, the avoidance behaviours, the multiple compulsions.

You are clearly a very intelligent woman Anna, very much so.....but I worry sometimes about the amount of research you do and time spent looking at cause, at cure, at the science behind it etc etc.  I really understand it's out of complete desperation but as yet, there isn't anything dynamic out there to solve this for you.  I'd love to see you putting that aside for now, to remove yourself from constantly researching OCD and pointing that energy and need back onto looking at better ways to help you deal with the extreme sensations of fear which are the route cause of the anxiety, phobia's and OCD.  

Caramoole :) 

Thanks Caramoole, 

I'm not really sure why most of my treatment has not been successful. I think that there have been many times where I have engaged fully with tasks and the tasks haven't helped and other times where I have not been able to. There have been times when one obsession has improved (for example I have reduced my avoidance behaviours and compulsions for one obsession) but another has got worse even though obviously they are part of the same condition and not separate conditions. 

Thanks for saying that, I definitely don't feel particularly intelligent and I do feel that I should be able to problem-solve more effectively and overcome all of this! 

19 hours ago, Wonderer said:

I have to agree with polar bear in that emetophobia is no different actually to a contamination OCD situation, there is always a small risk of anything, including what people with contamination OCD worry about, if there was no such thing as a risk the obsession probably would never take hold in the first place! The point is not to convince ourselves that there’s no risk but to be comfortable with the fact that there’s a small risk but that’s juts life and to learn how to manage the anxiety surrounding it! I am sorry that U have had sooo much treatment around this with no success so far, but you can still get over it if u try, the best way being not to avoid these situations, in a normal setting people do take slight precautions if a family member is carrying an infectious bug, such as not drinking from the same cup or using clean towels etc but they wouldn’t move out til it was done with! X

Hi Wonderer,

Thanks, that's true that there is always a risk and that it's important just to accept it.

The difference for me personally between my general contamination fears (e.g. dog poo on shoes, chemicals on hands) and my emetophobic-contamination fears in a situation where someone actually has a stomach virus is that in the former the risk is relatively low and feels quite remote. In a situation where there is a stomach virus, particularly where someone is actively throwing up the risk is genuinely quite high and immediately present so is much more difficult not to respond to.

 

 

Edited by BelAnna
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2 hours ago, legalseagull said:

Hi Anna

Yes I have managed to stay in the house when someone had a bug, quite a few times. But only by carrying out constant safety behaviours and avoidance so I'm not a good example! 

Of course the healthy thing to do would be to stick around and take minimal 'normal' precautions. Don't feel bad if that's not achievable at the moment - that's like being thrown in at the deep end. But make sure you carry on with the therapy and take those steps in the right direction.

Hi Legalseagull,

That's amazing that you've coped with someone throwing up in the same house as you despite Emetophobia.

I am definitely going to keep going with therapy. My Counselling Psychologist has actually been really helpful with other aspects of my OCD and he has explained that he thinks my previous treatment focused too much on Exposure Response Prevention and not enough on the cognitive side of thing. I hope you're doing ok!

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25 minutes ago, BelAnna said:

Thanks for your replies and help.

Hi PolarBear,

'Emetophobia' meets the medical diagnostic criteria for a 'Complex' phobia (like Agoraphobia) rather than a simple phobia (like Arachnophobia). If you think that an Arachnophobic person does not live in fear all the time but only when they see a very specific stimulus (i.e. spider)- you can see that it is a simple phobia- it responds to ERP like any simple phobia.

Emetophobia is just more like a form of OCD, which of course can be treated with CBT including therapy that focuses on the Cognitive side of things, rather than just ERP but it spans multiple situations, occurs in the absence of the specific stimulus and has a more irrational basis than a simple phobia. 

Hi Lynz,

That's great that you are not fearful of contracting Norovirus and didn't find it too terrible.

I'm not sure how to get a handle on my fear really. In therapy I've worked through the origins of my fear, used ERP techniques (such as watching youtube clips of people throwing up, listening to sounds of people vomiting on a CD and watching TV programmes where someone vomits etc., looking at a vomit-like concoction in a toilet [my CBT therapist put vegetable soup in the toilet bowl!!] etc etc.). I've discussed issues/themes such as 'loss of control', 'embarrassment' etc. but none of it really helps! 

Thanks Caramoole, 

I'm not really sure why most of my treatment has not been successful. I think that there have been many times where I have engaged fully with tasks and the tasks haven't helped and other times where I have not been able to. There have been times when one obsession has improved (for example I have reduced my avoidance behaviours and compulsions for one obsession) but another has got worse even though obviously they are part of the same condition and not separate conditions. 

Thanks for saying that, I definitely don't feel particularly intelligent and I do feel that I should be able to problem-solve more effectively and overcome all of this! 

Hi Wonderer,

Thanks, that's true that there is always a risk and that it's important just to accept it.

The difference for me personally between my general contamination fears (e.g. dog poo on shoes, chemicals on hands) and my emetophobic-contamination fears in a situation where someone actually has a stomach virus is that in the former the risk is relatively low and feels quite remote. In a situation where there is a stomach virus, particularly where someone is actively throwing up the risk is genuinely quite high and immediately present so is much more difficult not to respond to.

 

 

Oh yes I see, it probably feels so much more likely to happen but remember there’s always a chance that it won’t, I think the main thing u need to work on is accepting that even though it’s horrible that vomiting is a normal thing and not something that will harm you, you just have to get comfortable with feeling uncomfortable for a while, I know that won’t be easy for u but I’m sure life would be so much easier for u when u overcome this and I believe that with determination and perseverance u absolutely can! Good luck xx

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7 hours ago, BelAnna said:

The difference between my general contamination fears (e.g. dog poo on shoes, chemicals on hands) and my emetophobic-contamination fears is that in the former the risk is relatively low and feels quite remote. 

In a situation where there is a stomach virus, particularly where someone is actively throwing up the risk is genuinely quite high and immediately present so is much more difficult not to respond to.

Bel-Anna, these two sentences give excellent insight to the problem. But I suspect when you say them you're so busy thinking about the content that you don't listen to yourself closely enough. Those two little words, is and is, are key. :) 

The risk from dog poo as you believe it to be seems relatively low. So the risk feels quite remote. 

Where there is a stomach virus and someone is actively throwing up you believe the risk is quite high and immediate, so your feelings of anxiety are triggered and you have more difficulty not responding. 

I suspect you think you're referring to a mathematical probability of risk, and a demonstrable physical risk of contamination. But the 'risk' you're actually referring to is your perception of a bad outcome. 

Your perception. And bad outcome as defined by you. (Any one person's idea of 'bad' may be roughly in line with everybody else in the world, but exactly what parameters define it as 'bad' is always unique to the individual.) 

The first step is to accept that what you're thinking/feeling has nothing to do with actual risk or actual outcome.  :no: 

Perception changes according to what beliefs you hold and what kind of thinking you apply...

How you define a bad outcome changes depending on what beliefs you hold and what kind of thinking you apply...

Now can you see where doing some cognitive work around your perception of the problem and how you think about the outcome can change everything for you? :) 

You need a therapist to guide you through the cognitive work. After you've got a new way of seeing things you can retake the ERP exercises you did in the past, only this time they'll have a chance of working.

(Of course therapy didn't work if it didn't change your perception or your thinking!! Sheesh! Goes without saying therapy won't work in those circumstances. :rolleyes: 

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Hi BelAnna I am interested in your division between complex and simple phobias. You define complex phobias as ‘occurs in the absence of the specific stimulis’. I have a phobia of rodents - in particular mice and rats which in your classification would be classified as a simple phobia. But in periods of heightened anxiety the fear can motivate behaviour such as searching for signs of presence of the beings. NHS Choices give as examples of complex phobias social anxiety and agoraphobia and define them as ‘deep rooted’. Could deep rooted as Snowbear mentions be ‘your perception of a bad outcome’? 

Edited by Angst
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