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On 04/10/2018 at 08:12, Wonderer said:

Oh I can do relate to this, my eldest has a hearing impairment and my youngest has ASD and OCD and I have spent many wasted hours wondering what I could have done to cause this issue, did I clean his ears out too hard when he had an infection? Did I not give my youngest enough attention as an infant...and on and on! My friends son has a rare condition, so rare in fact that it doesn’t have a name but falls under the liver disease category and she was also beside herself looking for reasons as to why and what she may have done to cause it, it’s an awful thing to go through but I think part and parcel of being a parent but we must put our doubts to one side and just deal with issues at hand as best we can! Xx

Thank you. I have found this to be the most difficult part of being a parent. If anything seems off the normal path of development I immediately try to attribute potential blame to myself, although I realize most often such things are out of our control. 

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10 hours ago, ExpectoPatronum said:

However, I am having trouble sorting out which concerns are rational and which concerns are not. I feel like I have to check with others to see which worries are valid and which are not, though I am wondering if this is perhaps a compulsion. 

Ah, I see, yes, that is a frustrating part of OCD (then again, whats NOT a frustrating part of OCD, right?).  Like most other aspects of OCD its something that takes time and practice (I know i sound like a broken record).  You are right that checking can become a compulsion, i know i've had to deal with that one.  Its not unreasonable to use external sources as a guide, but you have to be careful how much you do it.  Asking someone one time, say a spouse or parent, "Hey, I noticed this thing on my arm, do you think its something serious" is probably fine.  Its when you come back to them over and over with the same problem or the same problem with slight variations "Hey I know you said it was ok, but I also noticed this small dot that I didn't mention before..." "Hey I know you said it was ok but other than the bump and the small dot I think I might have sneezed when it I noticed it..." etc. etc. etc.  One good rule of thumb, if you think it might be OCD, it probably is.  Try your best to assume the most common/likely explanation for things and stick with that until you have strong reason to believe otherwise.  For example, if you have a mild headache one afternoon, its probably safe to assume its not a big deal, might be stress, might be a minor cold, etc.  Its probably NOT a good idea to assume you have fatal brain cancer from one mild headache one afternoon.  Now if it keeps up and you have progressively worse headaches over a week or two, then yeah, ask your doctor, but the temptation/tendency with OCD is to assume the worst possible outcome first and ignore the many many many benign and normal outcomes instead.  Part of your introspection can be to ask yourself "am I catastrophizing".  Anyway, just do your best to try and follow the right path through CBT and understand that you won't be perfect at it, especially at first.  Its a learning experience and it will take time.  Its ok to make mistakes and struggle, so long as you are working towards the goal of recovery.

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On 11/10/2018 at 20:28, dksea said:

Ah, I see, yes, that is a frustrating part of OCD (then again, whats NOT a frustrating part of OCD, right?).  Like most other aspects of OCD its something that takes time and practice (I know i sound like a broken record).  You are right that checking can become a compulsion, i know i've had to deal with that one.  Its not unreasonable to use external sources as a guide, but you have to be careful how much you do it.  Asking someone one time, say a spouse or parent, "Hey, I noticed this thing on my arm, do you think its something serious" is probably fine.  Its when you come back to them over and over with the same problem or the same problem with slight variations "Hey I know you said it was ok, but I also noticed this small dot that I didn't mention before..." "Hey I know you said it was ok but other than the bump and the small dot I think I might have sneezed when it I noticed it..." etc. etc. etc.  One good rule of thumb, if you think it might be OCD, it probably is.  Try your best to assume the most common/likely explanation for things and stick with that until you have strong reason to believe otherwise.  For example, if you have a mild headache one afternoon, its probably safe to assume its not a big deal, might be stress, might be a minor cold, etc.  Its probably NOT a good idea to assume you have fatal brain cancer from one mild headache one afternoon.  Now if it keeps up and you have progressively worse headaches over a week or two, then yeah, ask your doctor, but the temptation/tendency with OCD is to assume the worst possible outcome first and ignore the many many many benign and normal outcomes instead.  Part of your introspection can be to ask yourself "am I catastrophizing".  Anyway, just do your best to try and follow the right path through CBT and understand that you won't be perfect at it, especially at first.  Its a learning experience and it will take time.  Its ok to make mistakes and struggle, so long as you are working towards the goal of recovery.

Thank you. That’s really good advice. I am definitely guilty of checking with others (and with slight variations to hopefully be less annoying). I am getting so frustrated because I don’t know the origin of a lot of the products in my home and don’t know whether they could be contaminated with chemicals or heavy metals. They probably aren’t, but there’s still a small chance. And I’m 100% ok with taking small risks when it comes to my own health. However, I just am having so much trouble taking risks when it concerns others’ health, particularly children that rely on you to keep them safe. I feel like I am completely accountable for researching everything to make sure it’s safe and I don’t know where to draw the line. 

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Thanks, PolarBear. I promise I’m not trying to be a jerk, but I really don’t know how I can just stop being a certain way. I would argue that I am accountable because children can’t yet make such decisions for themselves and I am responsible for looking after their best interests. I have already found some products in my house that are dangerous, and I wouldn’t have realized this without researching everything. I feel like if I stop, I’m just doing it for my own self comfort to make myself feel better. Wouldn’t that be selfish of me? I feel like if I am complacent about this then I’m just being neglectful. I apologize again, but I don’t understand how I am supposed to feel comfortable just doing nothing. 

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11 hours ago, ExpectoPatronum said:

I have already found some products in my house that are dangerous

 

On 13/10/2018 at 12:42, ExpectoPatronum said:

I don’t know the origin of a lot of the products in my home and don’t know whether they could be contaminated with chemicals or heavy metals.


It's reasonable to think about which products you buy and consider alternatives that you feel comfortable with.  HOWEVER, and this is a big however, much of the "dangerous" products you find out about on the internet, are, in fact not.  There is a metric tonne of garbage out there masquerading as safety and science when its not.  I could go in to a long (and probably boring) explanation of how chemistry works, and how the same element can be dangerous in one form and not in another, but thats all beside the point really.  The problem is you are allowing the OCD to create an impossible standard, protecting your children from all possible dangers.  You are saying "I can take a risk with my own health, but not with my kids!"  But parents do that all the time because the world is inherently risky and no matter how dilligent you are you'll never be able to eliminate all risk.  Yes, there are reasonable levels of concern you can take, but when it reaches the level of compulsions, then its a problem.  
 

11 hours ago, ExpectoPatronum said:

I wouldn’t have realized this without researching everything. I feel like if I stop, I’m just doing it for my own self comfort to make myself feel better. Wouldn’t that be selfish of me? I feel like if I am complacent about this then I’m just being neglectful. I apologize again, but I don’t understand how I am supposed to feel comfortable just doing nothing.

This is the impossible standard.  You are setting up a false choice between two extremes.  On a scale of 1-10 where neglecting your kids completely is a 1, your up there at a 9 or 10.  The majority of people live happily and healthily at 5.  Of course you shouldn't drop down to a 1, that wouldn't be healthy either.  But the rest of us, those of us without your specific anxiety, are telling you that its ok to be at a 5 or 6.  Spending hours researching and checking and worrying isn't healthy or helpful, especially when it means you aren't able to enjoy your life and therefore your families lives.  Its not selfish to lead a healthier life.  It would be selfish, even though it seems otherwise, to continue allowing OCD to run your life and take away from your families and friends happiness.

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Why don't other parents constantly research household chemicals and ruminate over their effects constantly? Why are you the only one? What's more likely, that you are right and everyone else is wrong, or your mind has blown this all out of proportion?

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On 14/10/2018 at 10:15, dksea said:

 


It's reasonable to think about which products you buy and consider alternatives that you feel comfortable with.  HOWEVER, and this is a big however, much of the "dangerous" products you find out about on the internet, are, in fact not.  There is a metric tonne of garbage out there masquerading as safety and science when its not.  I could go in to a long (and probably boring) explanation of how chemistry works, and how the same element can be dangerous in one form and not in another, but thats all beside the point really.  The problem is you are allowing the OCD to create an impossible standard, protecting your children from all possible dangers.  You are saying "I can take a risk with my own health, but not with my kids!"  But parents do that all the time because the world is inherently risky and no matter how dilligent you are you'll never be able to eliminate all risk.  Yes, there are reasonable levels of concern you can take, but when it reaches the level of compulsions, then its a problem.  
 

This is the impossible standard.  You are setting up a false choice between two extremes.  On a scale of 1-10 where neglecting your kids completely is a 1, your up there at a 9 or 10.  The majority of people live happily and healthily at 5.  Of course you shouldn't drop down to a 1, that wouldn't be healthy either.  But the rest of us, those of us without your specific anxiety, are telling you that its ok to be at a 5 or 6.  Spending hours researching and checking and worrying isn't healthy or helpful, especially when it means you aren't able to enjoy your life and therefore your families lives.  Its not selfish to lead a healthier life.  It would be selfish, even though it seems otherwise, to continue allowing OCD to run your life and take away from your families and friends happiness.

Thank you dksea. I agree with what you’ve said about not being able to eliminate all risks. And I agree that a lot of the claims on the Web are based on pseudoscience, so I do at least try to at least contain my research to peer-reviewed medical journals. And I’m finding many concerning studies that have not necessarily been released to a more public audience or via statements through environmental or health organizations.  I’ve been struggling with how to figure out where to draw the line. I can’t really figure out what a normal/healthy level of research is versus a compulsive level. I’m not even sure that I have personally reached a compulsive level.  Because a lot of the products in my household were not necessarily purchased by me and were gifted to me (and thus not researched for safety and may have unclear origins), I’m not sure whether it would be prudent to replace things with unclear origins or just try to deal with the potential risk. It’s also frustrating because a lot of the chemicals deemed harmful such as bpa, parabens, etc. are being replaced with things that may likely have similar potential effects on the endocrine system. 

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On 14/10/2018 at 11:32, PolarBear said:

Why don't other parents constantly research household chemicals and ruminate over their effects constantly? Why are you the only one? What's more likely, that you are right and everyone else is wrong, or your mind has blown this all out of proportion?

Truly, a lot of the parents I know do constantly research household chemicals so this is adding to my guilt. I don’t feel like I have a good sense of what is normal. I don’t think that I’m right and everyone else is wrong, just to clarify. I do wish I was oblivious to some of these concerns, but I can’t exactly go back and unknow what I know.

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7 hours ago, ExpectoPatronum said:

  I’ve been struggling with how to figure out where to draw the line. I can’t really figure out what a normal/healthy level of research is versus a compulsive level. I’m not even sure that I have personally reached a compulsive level.  Because a lot of the products in my household were not necessarily purchased by me and were gifted to me (and thus not researched for safety and may have unclear origins), I’m not sure whether it would be prudent to replace things with unclear origins or just try to deal with the potential risk. It’s also frustrating because a lot of the chemicals deemed harmful such as bpa, parabens, etc. are being replaced with things that may likely have similar potential effects on the endocrine system. 

I would say, given the amount anxiety and distress this causes in your life, that the normal/healthy level of research you should be engaging in is probably none.  Now I know that seems a bit extreme but before you decide to ignore my advice hear me out :)

Some people can drink alcohol, enjoy themselves, and then quit without having a problem.  They can get the positive benefits without having to worry about the negative.  Others, alcoholics, can't do that.  For them alcohol is a problem no matter how much they have.  Similarly some people are capable of engaging in research on topics like this and handling it in a reasonable way.  Other people, particularly those with anxiety disorders, can't do that.  Even a small amount of researching leads them down a very dark and problematic path.  

Now, I can already hear your objection:  But if i'm NOT checking this out, doesn't that mean I'm putting my family at risk?  Aren't I just being selfish focusing on my well being and ignoring theirs?  An understandable objection to be sure, but I would say no, this is not selfish at all.  You have to compare the amount of harm that the checking compulsion (researching chemicals) is doing to you vs the likelihood that doing the research will result in significant improvement for you and your family.  While it is true that some items included in some products have been found to be potentially problematic, the degree to which they can do harm (if any) is very limited.  Yes, for example, BPA is potentially dangerous in high enough exposures, but the levels most people encounter are not likely to cause problems.  And if/when a product is determined to be too potentially harmful to continue selling, it is removed from the market, you won't be able to get it anymore.

That doesn't mean you have to ignore potential danger completely, you just have to understand what the limits are, and especially at first while tackling the OCD to get it under control, allow yourself to be more strict on what those limits are.  For now, for example, you could limit your research to gov't and or limited non-profit consumer safety sites.   You would be allowed to put together a list of the most common concerning ingredients from such a site and allowed to remove only those products in your house that list them as ingredients or you can easily know they are included.  But you wouldn't be allowed to search scientific journals or 3rd party blogs for more detailed/obscure such chemicals.  You wouldn't be allowed to research all possible ingredients components in all products in your house.  You wouldn't be allowed to throw out an item that might have merely come in contact with an item that contains something you don't like.  So as an example you would be ok replacing a plastic, BPA containing water bottle with a  metal one, but you wouldn't be allowed to replace all the other items in your cupboard that may have touched the plastic water bottle at one point or another.  Basically when it comes to limits you need to work on setting them such that they are manageable, non-disruptive and reasonable.  Your therapist, doctor or partner may be able to help with that.

In the end I think the getting control of your OCD will have far greater health benefits than identifying some obscure chemical being used in a random item in your house that might in large enough doses, but far exceeding what you'll experience in a life time, will.  And maybe you will reach the point where you can do a little bit of research without going in to anxiety mode.  But until then i'd avoid it as much as possible.  It just isn't helping you.

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On 18/10/2018 at 23:19, dksea said:



That doesn't mean you have to ignore potential danger completely, you just have to understand what the limits are, and especially at first while tackling the OCD to get it under control, allow yourself to be more strict on what those limits are.  For now, for example, you could limit your research to gov't and or limited non-profit consumer safety sites.   You would be allowed to put together a list of the most common concerning ingredients from such a site and allowed to remove only those products in your house that list them as ingredients or you can easily know they are included.  But you wouldn't be allowed to search scientific journals or 3rd party blogs for more detailed/obscure such chemicals.  You wouldn't be allowed to research all possible ingredients components in all products in your house.  You wouldn't be allowed to throw out an item that might have merely come in contact with an item that contains something you don't like.  So as an example you would be ok replacing a plastic, BPA containing water bottle with a  metal one, but you wouldn't be allowed to replace all the other items in your cupboard that may have touched the plastic water bottle at one point or another.  Basically when it comes to limits you need to work on setting them such that they are manageable, non-disruptive and reasonable.  Your therapist, doctor or partner may be able to help with that.

In the end I think the getting control of your OCD will have far greater health benefits than identifying some obscure chemical being used in a random item in your house that might in large enough doses, but far exceeding what you'll experience in a life time, will.  And maybe you will reach the point where you can do a little bit of research without going in to anxiety mode.  But until then i'd avoid it as much as possible.  It just isn't helping you.

Hi Dksea. Thank you so very much for your detailed response. I will try to enact a few more limits to my research. I think I will try to at least hold off on additional research, at least for the short term as I have already spent so much money replacing things. In terms of setting limits, do you think it is unreasonable to replace things that I didn’t purchase myself and I don’t know where they came from? With products I didn’t purchase myself, I can’t be sure of the origins, their chemical composition, whether it could potentially be counterfeit, etc. It would be awfully environmentally unfriendly and pricey to throw everything out, though, so I am conflicted. And it is of course difficult to remember where everything is from as I haven’t kept a spreadsheet and am now questioning my memory. 

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On 18/10/2018 at 12:15, ExpectoPatronum said:

Thank you dksea. I agree with what you’ve said about not being able to eliminate all risks. And I agree that a lot of the claims on the Web are based on pseudoscience, so I do at least try to at least contain my research to peer-reviewed medical journals. And I’m finding many concerning studies that have not necessarily been released to a more public audience or via statements through environmental or health organizations.  I’ve been struggling with how to figure out where to draw the line. I can’t really figure out what a normal/healthy level of research is versus a compulsive level. I’m not even sure that I have personally reached a compulsive level.  Because a lot of the products in my household were not necessarily purchased by me and were gifted to me (and thus not researched for safety and may have unclear origins), I’m not sure whether it would be prudent to replace things with unclear origins or just try to deal with the potential risk. It’s also frustrating because a lot of the chemicals deemed harmful such as bpa, parabens, etc. are being replaced with things that may likely have similar potential effects on the endocrine system. 

Quite simply, the problem is that you are researching at all. The average person/parent does no research. Yes, all of your research is a compulsion. All of it.

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On 20/10/2018 at 22:36, ExpectoPatronum said:

do you think it is unreasonable to replace things that I didn’t purchase myself and I don’t know where they came from? With products I didn’t purchase myself, I can’t be sure of the origins, their chemical composition, whether it could potentially be counterfeit, etc.

I would say in most cases, yes it would probably not be reasonable to throw things out just because you didn't purchase them/can't be sure of their origins.  Assuming its a commercial product it doesn't matter who purchased it, the contents are the same and are going to be listed on the bottle/box/packaging in most countries. Also the fact that the product is for sale in the first place means its passed safety inspections, etc. anyway.  Unless you have heard a specific warning about a specific product, (which would be hard to miss as they end up all over the news) about a recall or something its best to assume the product is reasonably safe and simply use it until its done.

 

On 20/10/2018 at 22:36, ExpectoPatronum said:

And it is of course difficult to remember where everything is from as I haven’t kept a spreadsheet and am now questioning my memory. 

I would definitely say keeping a spreadsheet is not a typical behavior.  Even among my friends who try to buy more environmentally friendly/green/natural products they don't track things to such a level.  Especially since you mention questioning your memory keeping a spreadsheet would be a compulsion, an attempt to provide certainty.

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Thank you PB and dksea for the help. I have another question, though I think I may already know the answer. So sometimes I intentionally expose myself to chemicals and small amounts of radiation under the guise of it being erp. Is this actually a compulsive behavior? I may be doing it to prove to myself that I’m ok thus my kids must be ok, particularly if I’m continuing to expose myself to chemicals over time and in higher frequencies. Keep in mind these aren’t banned substances so I’m not doing anything inherently dangerous that could contaminate others. 

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1 minute ago, PolarBear said:

Yeah, you can. Billions of people all over the world do it everyday. 

Ok, well I will rephrase and say I won’t do that. If I could go back in time and unread everything I have read, then yes, maybe. But at this point, I could not deal with the guilt and I feel like that would be terrible of me to try to deal with my own anxiety by potentially exposing innocent children to something potentially harmful. I just could not live with myself. And honestly, I am going to admit that I probably don’t have OCD. I don’t have any sense or understanding that me doing this is irrational or unnecessary. I’m sorry if I sound argumentative, but I am feeling pretty convinced that this is outside the realm of ocd. 

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No, it's entirely within the realm of OCD. It is OCD. What you are doing is not normal. Simple.

Some people with OCD have poor insight. They have a tough time seeing the irrationality of their thoughts and actions. Doesn't mean they don't have OCD.

Quite simply, if you're okay with doing what you are doing, go for it. But if it is or becomes a problem, then you have to deal with it. OCD almost always gets worse over time. It won't get better on it's own.

 

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Also, my compulsions don’t cause me significant distress. If anything, they are comforting to me. So I don’t even know if I technically would fit into the diagnostic criteria. I am probably just researching things to make myself feel better, so ultimately, perhaps I’m just a selfish, self-consumed person.

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Compulsions don't usually cause distress. Obsessions csuse distress. Sufferers do compulsions to alleviate the distress and/or to stop a perceived bad thing from happening.

I've been doing this a long time. Helped hundreds of people. Suffered 40 years myself. You have OCD.

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