Accept versus embrace uncertainty

[Foreigner]

When it comes to obsessive thoughts, I have learned to accept uncertainty, but I struggle to embrace it. And is that even necessary?

I have different obsessions that trouble me at the time. They cause distress, and to be honest, they reduce my life quality. I know what life is like without ocd, and I hope I can get back there. I see no point in hiding that the difference between life with and without ocd is like hell and heaven. When it comes to the obsessive thoughts, I have as I pointed out above, learned to accept the uncertainty, but I don`t embrace it. I have to admit that I may even offer myself assurance. When an obsessive thought come, I automatically consider the content of the thought. I have read that I shouldn`t do that, that I should just meet the thought with a shrug and a "maybe-maybe not". Even when I was in therapy and I presented my thoughts to my therapists, I registred that even she asked me a few questions to just sort out what this was (like if I was afraid of having HIV, she asked if there had been unprotected sex). And I too do that, and I actually experience that to some degree am capable of concluding. When a thought comes, I do, as I said, consider the content of the thought, and in addition I identify the ocd characteristics (obsession, distress, need for certainty, need to do compulsions). Within maybe five to ten minuttes, I am able to conclude that this is probably ocd. That doesn`t mean that "the problem is solved". The obsession returns frequently, and the doubt is still there (and I accept it), but then I try not to get involved in it. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I don`t. I know that I won`t be more certaint if I just "think" more about it. Now I need advice to wether I am dealing with things in a expedient way? What do you think? Is it sufficient to accept uncertainty, or should one also embrace it (even induce doubt)?

[taurean]

I think another way to look at it, which might be helpful, is to be satisfied with the probability that the intrusions are lies or exaggerations of threat. 

Probability is not an absolute (which is what OCD demands)  but a likelihood,  and that can be easier to accept, and so OCD.

A 2% chance that the OCD intrusion might be true, and not OCD, is a powerful argument against the certainty we seek - but a 98% probability that it is all just OCD is easier to accept. 

Edited September 29, 2018 by taurean

[Foreigner]

The danger with that approach, is that it is not unlikely that ocd will make one doubt what is actually probable and what is not. It is not unusual for sufferers to actually believe their obsessions.

[taurean]

There is a danger with every approach - it is called OCD and it will look to rubbish any argument. 

But if we hold firm, and go with the evidence which supports probability - and refuse to listen to the OCD - we can beat it. 

[Foreigner]

1 hour ago, taurean said:

But if we hold firm, and go with the evidence which supports probability - and refuse to listen to the OCD

There`s a thin line between this and rumination, like it is with my strategy on deciding wether something is ocd by looking at the content. I would like to hear opinions on wether this is a good strategy, and if I get you right taurean, you think it is.

[cookiemonster]

The only certainty in life is death. Which sounds terribley distressing but could also be seen as exciting. I find it hard to accept or embrace uncertainty. I know I must and I battle with myself about it. 

[taurean]

Actually another certainty in life is that you can't have certainty. 

My OCD has not taken the form of demands for certainty - but I can  see how difficult it is for those who do have such a type. 

For me a matter is OCD if we repetitively obsess about it, carry out compulsions as a result of it,  and it leads to mental and/or physical disorder.

Plus there will be an OCD core belief underpinning it which others, if not us, would identify as lies, exaggerations or revulsions. 

But that's just my own view, a means to try and tick boxes to get the answer is it OCD? 

Another good way to challenge the certainty OCD demands is "if it seems like OCD then it likely is",  tying nicely back into that probability methodology. 

 

Edited September 29, 2018 by taurean

[Foreigner]

Even though your OCD does not demand certainty, it does sound like it demands probabilty. And isn`t that why we perform compulsions? To replace uncertainty with probabilty? The question is if we instead should embrace that uncertainty.

[PolarBear]

You are taking too long to determine a thought is an obsession and should be dismissed as garbage. During that five to ten minutes you are figuring it out, you are doing compulsions. 

I got it down to about a second. No time to do compulsions.

[taurean]

1 hour ago, Foreigner said:

Even though your OCD does not demand certainty, it does sound like it demands probabilty. And isn`t that why we perform compulsions? To replace uncertainty with probabilty? The question is if we instead should embrace that uncertainty.

Not really foreigner. I simply needed to understand that my harm obsessions were OCD attacking a core character value and alleging the opposite to be true. 

No probability issues there. 

No we perform compulsions to seek relief from the disorder caused by our obsessions. But any "relief"  is very short-lived, and the compulsions only connect with the obsessions making them more powerful. 

[dksea]

On 29/09/2018 at 17:03, Foreigner said:

Within maybe five to ten minuttes, I am able to conclude that this is probably ocd.

I agree with PB, you should definitely cut this time down, a lot.  As a general rule of thumb: If you think it might be OCD, it probably is.  If you are spending more than a few seconds wondering whether or not your thought is OCD, assume its probably OCD and go with that.  It'll be hard at first, maybe you won't be able to go from 10 minutes to 10 seconds on the first try (though you should get as quick as you can as soon as you can), but that should be your goal.

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thoughts are just thoughts and in many ways it's irrelevant whether it's OCD or not.  Thoughts don't mean anything, they come and go, some are pleasant, some are not, but none of them mean anything and trying to read meaning, certainty or probability into something that is meaningless to start with is merely teaching your brain that the thoughts are important.  I think the aim should be to let all thoughts come and go as they please.  

[taurean]

Thoughts do come and go, and when we connect with them they have the power to hurt us with the emotional response they provoke. 

My boss was one of those rare people who was so relaxed he was almost horizontal. 

I so much wanted to be like him. However in practice that is actually too far the other way - because we do need to respond to genuine alerts. 

I think we learn in CBT what we ought to respond to. And we can then take that knowledge into daily life. 

[OB1]

On ‎01‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 01:47, dksea said:

I agree with PB, you should definitely cut this time down, a lot.  As a general rule of thumb: If you think it might be OCD, it probably is.  If you are spending more than a few seconds wondering whether or not your thought is OCD, assume its probably OCD and go with that.  It'll be hard at first, maybe you won't be able to go from 10 minutes to 10 seconds on the first try (though you should get as quick as you can as soon as you can), but that should be your goal.

Wow this is incredibly scary when almost every thought is OCD.  Really great advice, I don't come here to much these days but it's nuggets like this that help me to understand what I need to do.  It's that fear of making a mistake that keeps me from taking the leap of faith. 

[dksea]

14 hours ago, OB1 said:

Wow this is incredibly scary when almost every thought is OCD.

I probably should have worded my response better, oops

Thoughts are just thoughts, everyone has them, even intrusive thoughts.  Studies have shown that non-OCD people get these same kind of thoughts too.  I remember talking to my parents early on in my OCD journey and them telling me that the same kind of thoughts pop in to their head sometimes too, the difference is, without OCD, they don't get stuck on them and fall in to the loop of anxiety and compulsion.

Our brains are incredibly active 24/7/365, generating an endless stream of thoughts, and usually, we handle them automatically.  The important ones surface to our conscious mind and the unimportant ones pass on through.  Meanwhile the world around us is giving us all sorts of stimuli and that stimuli affects our thoughts.  Maybe in summer your more likely to think about beaches and vacation and sunshine.  But you can still have thoughts about snow and Christmas.  You can even make yourself have a thought.  For example, I can intentionally think, right now "What if I walked over to my boss and started yelling at them!"  Now I can't imagine that would be a good idea if I actually did it, but I'm also not remotely worried about doing it either.  Even though I just INTENTIONALLY thought about it.  Just thinking about something does not mean it will happen/you want it to happen/you will make it happen.  A thought is just a thought.

What OCD does is affect how we react to thoughts.  Instead of letting them slip by unnoticed or be dismissed as meaningless, OCD causes some thoughts to get "stuck".  The stuck thought starts generating anxiety because we decide it must mean something, it must be true, it must be real.  So we seek to make the thought get unstuck, to make the anxiety go away, and usually we do so by trying to 'solve' the thought.  We try and prove its not true, confront it directly, etc.  Basically we are massively overreacting to a meaningless thought, because of the OCD.

So its probably more accurate to say that the reaction to the thought is OCD.  Hope that makes sense (and is maybe a little less scary :D)

[gingerbreadgirl]

On 03/10/2018 at 02:32, dksea said:

I probably should have worded my response better, oops

Thoughts are just thoughts, everyone has them, even intrusive thoughts.  Studies have shown that non-OCD people get these same kind of thoughts too.  I remember talking to my parents early on in my OCD journey and them telling me that the same kind of thoughts pop in to their head sometimes too, the difference is, without OCD, they don't get stuck on them and fall in to the loop of anxiety and compulsion.

Our brains are incredibly active 24/7/365, generating an endless stream of thoughts, and usually, we handle them automatically.  The important ones surface to our conscious mind and the unimportant ones pass on through.  Meanwhile the world around us is giving us all sorts of stimuli and that stimuli affects our thoughts.  Maybe in summer your more likely to think about beaches and vacation and sunshine.  But you can still have thoughts about snow and Christmas.  You can even make yourself have a thought.  For example, I can intentionally think, right now "What if I walked over to my boss and started yelling at them!"  Now I can't imagine that would be a good idea if I actually did it, but I'm also not remotely worried about doing it either.  Even though I just INTENTIONALLY thought about it.  Just thinking about something does not mean it will happen/you want it to happen/you will make it happen.  A thought is just a thought.

What OCD does is affect how we react to thoughts.  Instead of letting them slip by unnoticed or be dismissed as meaningless, OCD causes some thoughts to get "stuck".  The stuck thought starts generating anxiety because we decide it must mean something, it must be true, it must be real.  So we seek to make the thought get unstuck, to make the anxiety go away, and usually we do so by trying to 'solve' the thought.  We try and prove its not true, confront it directly, etc.  Basically we are massively overreacting to a meaningless thought, because of the OCD.

So its probably more accurate to say that the reaction to the thought is OCD.  Hope that makes sense (and is maybe a little less scary :D)

 really good advice here!

[dksea]

2 hours ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

 really good advice here!

Thanks, I appreciate it.  But don't be fooled, I sometimes fail to follow it too!  OCD is hard! Its one to not get it right all the time

[OB1]

On 04/10/2018 at 06:55, gingerbreadgirl said:

 really good advice here!

Agreed