Do I just assume everything is ok?

[ineedahug]

I have hit a wall in my recovery. The wall is this: I never want to simply assume my fears are illegitimate and untrue. They probably are, but I can't assume anything. Assumptions are stupid and they cause people to be wrong all the time. It's like lying to yourself, and I refuse to lie to myself to protect myself.

So since I'm not coming to the concrete, absolute conclusion that the fears are nonsense, I have no resolution.

I could sit with the uncertainty for days, but in order to finally find some peace, I need to close the case somehow, which means doing a compulsion. I've read some people with OCD get over this stuff within a few hours after sitting with the uncertainty, but for me time does not seem to help.

So in order to be okay, and not live with weeks of maddening uncertainty, I need to act as if the fear is real, just in case it is. I'm not assuming it's real-- just like I'm not assuming it is nonsense-- I don't know either way. So I err on the side of caution, which generally speaking is a good idea. 

Sometimes it seems the only difference between me and a normal person is that my eyes are open. I see the threats they never think of, because they are too busy closing their eyes, covering their ears, and saying "blah blah blah."

I know there is something that doesn't quite work with these beliefs, because they are keeping me stuck, but these are my beliefs, until someone can change my mind. 

The OCD behavior comes from a belief that goes like this:

I am protecting myself from possible threats, and the reason I must do that is because I see the possibility of these threats, while others don't. I don't know if the threats are legit, but if I was to assume one way or the other, that would be foolish. I'd be just like all those lost people who believe whatever they want to believe. I'd be sticking my head in the sand. 

Can anyone relate to this? I'm looking for empathy (not validation) and sound reasoning.

Edited November 12, 2018 by ineedahug

[gingerbreadgirl]

Hi ineedahug

You are still looking for certainty, a resolution, and it is keeping you stuck.  You can't have certainty one way or another, you have to learn to sit with the uncertainty indefinitely.  I'm willing to bet there are tons of risks in life that you're more than happy to be uncertain about.  You don't know you won't get mown down by a runaway bus but you probably don't feel any need to get certainty around this, you're likely happy with a low probability.  This is what you need to aim for with your OCD fears.

I used to have a big burglary fear and I was convinced I was the sensible one, that others were stupid and not vigilant.  But now I don't need certainty, I don't even think about it - it's not on my radar. I realise that other people are not stupid, they just understand that there's no point ruining your life over a low probability event. 

Sitting with uncertainty doesn't work like a magic bullet but it does work over time, if you give it long enough.  Looking for a resolution will just keep you stuck. 

[Saffie]

You're looking for resolution when recovery does not mean resolution. I remember reaching a similar point where I realised I still had an assumption that I'd 'come to the end' at some point. It's hard to acknowledge that there will never be one, and even more so, that every human being lives with uncertainty. The very human condition is based on some form of anxiety, just with ocd it's more pronounced. We have two forces at work within us constantly (love and fear). 

 

However, that doesn't mean you have to feel awfully uncomfortable for the rest of your life. Alan Watts talks about how, to be human is to always live in some kind of falseness, duality, or unease. The only way to 'overcome' this condition is to tap into a new state of awareness.. That is, one that can hold two opposing thoughts/feelings/experiences. So basically, the ability to hold in your conscious awareness the anxiety of uncertainty along with a sense of peace and acceptance or other sensation. It sounds impossible to your rational mind, because it is. It's something you re-learn to do (you already know how to do it on some level as it's your natural highest state, children can do it much more easily), but it's a totally different level of awareness than the one you're currently operating from. This is the basis of many therapies, including cbt and also things like organic intelligence, somatic experiencing etc...Re-learning how to use dual awareness, so your anxiety is there but it's not the ONLY thing there, it's manageable, and you can observe it without being overwhelmed by it because it's one part of a much bigger picture. It's also something you experience with meditation, which if you don't already do I'd suggest you try, simply practicing observing your mind, thoughts, sensations and general experience on a day to day basis. 

 

Edited November 12, 2018 by Saffie

[dksea]

8 hours ago, ineedahug said:

I never want to simply assume my fears are illegitimate and untrue. They probably are, but I can't assume anything. Assumptions are stupid and they cause people to be wrong all the time. It's like lying to yourself, and I refuse to lie to myself to protect myself.

Assumptions CAN cause people to be wrong.  They CAN also cause people to be right.  The reality is you make assumptions every second of every day of your life because its impossible to be 100% certain about anything in life because you will never have all the knowledge about every possible situation (its literally against the laws of physics).  

For example, you wake up in the morning and plan out your day assuming that you won't be killed by a stampeding elephant on the way to work.  Sound ridiculous?  Sure, but its technically possible, and you merely assume that it won't happen because the odds are so small.  Also, are you sure your work is still there?  Maybe it was destroyed by a freak meteor crash in the middle of the night.  Again, odds are not likely but it IS possible, you merely assume that it hasn't happened.

To be a little less crazy, you assume things all the time whenever you plan for the future.  You assume you will still be around, that the people you are planning with will still be around, that the things you want to do will still be around, that the earth or even the universe will still be around.  You assume that certain things which are probably true will remain true.  You assume all sorts of things throughout your day, its how we all function in the world.  We literally HAVE to make assumptions because we will never have complete knowledge of every situation and possible piece of information.  Never ever.  Assuming something to probably be true and going with that isn't lying to yourself, its living.

For everything in life we have a threshold, a level of certainty we must meet before we can make a decision and go forward.  For trivial things the threshold can be low (how certain do you have to be that your favorite tv show is still on before you turn on the tv?  what are the consequences if its not on?  All you did was turn on the tv and then found its on a break this week, no big deal), for important things it will be much higher (i.e. you should probably be more than 50/50 that the guy/girl you are about to marry actually cares about you and isn't marrying you for your money).  But regardless we accept uncertainty all the time.  The problem with OCD is that it makes us THINK (even though we are wrong) that we need absolutely certainty about certain things, an impossible goal.

 

8 hours ago, ineedahug said:

So since I'm not coming to the concrete, absolute conclusion that the fears are nonsense, I have no resolution.

Correct, because you can never reach an absolute conclusion.  We never do.  Our brains, when working properly simply accept being sure ENOUGH about something and we consider that to be "absolute" even though its not.  

 

8 hours ago, ineedahug said:

So in order to be okay, and not live with weeks of maddening uncertainty, I need to act as if the fear is real, just in case it is. I'm not assuming it's real-- just like I'm not assuming it is nonsense-- I don't know either way. So I err on the side of caution, which generally speaking is a good idea. 

Sometimes it seems the only difference between me and a normal person is that my eyes are open. I see the threats they never think of, because they are too busy closing their eyes, covering their ears, and saying "blah blah blah."

No, the difference between you and a "normal" person is they are willing to accept a level of uncertainty that you will not and are able to live their lives with much less anxiety because of that.  You say they are too buys closing their eyes and covering their ears, but they are the ones able to enjoy life, they aren't stuck like you or other OCD sufferers are.  

Consider the following.  You and 9 other (non-OCD) people are kidnapped by an evil villain.  You are placed in a large room.  In the room are adequate sources of food and water, you could, if you wanted live out the rest of your life in this room.  However you will have no access to the outside world, you will never see your friends again, your family again.  BUT there is a way out, many in fact.  On one side of the room are 100 doors.  Now this evil villain is, well evil, but he's also 100% honest.  He tells you that behind each door is a long hallway.  Once you enter the hallway the door behind you will close and lock, you won't be able to go back to the room you were in before.  At the end of each hallway is another door.  Behind 99 of the doors is an exit that will let you back out in to the world.  Behind 1 door is a man eating tiger who will kill you.

So, you have two choices, go through a door or stay in the safe room forever.  Eventually the other 9 people leave through 9 different doors.  They figure, hey, at least 8 of us will make it out safe that way.  They can't be 100% certain they have chosen the right door, literally they have a 1 in 100 chance of death, but they choose anyway because the odds are really good for them to be safe AND the reward is worth taking the chance.  But you, dear Ineedahug, would sit in the locked room forever, because you will NEVER be absolutely certain which doors are safe and which door is not. No matter how much time you think about it, no matter how much you investigate the doors or wonder, you will never know until you try.  You would, by your own admission, choose the safer route of just staying put.  Or would you?  If you are thinking to yourself "this is ridiculous, of course I wouldn't sit in the room forever, I'd want to get out" then you are saying that you DON'T have to be 100% concrete certain, that you ARE willing to make assumptions (which, you definitely are btw).

Living with OCD is like living in that trapped room.  Yes you can stay "safe" but it means sacrificing enjoying life and getting out in to the real world.  Its not quite as clear cut as the example above, but the basic principles still apply.  If you set your standard as absolute "concrete" certainty than you are limiting yourself.  Its not logical to assume that everyone else who is able to live and enjoy life is wrong while you, the person who is paralyzed by anxiety and choice is making the correct decision is it?

 

8 hours ago, ineedahug said:

I am protecting myself from possible threats, and the reason I must do that is because I see the possibility of these threats, while others don't. I don't know if the threats are legit, but if I was to assume one way or the other, that would be foolish. I'd be just like all those lost people who believe whatever they want to believe. I'd be sticking my head in the sand. 

The problem here is that you, as so many of us with OCD do, are vastly overestimating and overreacting to possible threats, both imagined and real.  The difference between you and "regular" people is not that they don't see the possibility of these threats, its that their estimation of how big the threat is is much healthier than yours.  It is not foolish for them to do so, because it allows them to lead a more rewarding and enjoyable life.  It is foolish to assume that your view, which fills you with anxiety and prevents you from participating in life is the one that is more accurate.  The data just doesn't back it up.


I DO empathize with your situation, because its a situation all of us who suffer from OCD experience to one degree or another.  Learning to accept that the risk we perceive about our obsessive fears is not accurate and that our own minds can lie to us is hard.  Its also hard to live with the very real anxiety we feel, even if the source of that anxiety isn't accurate compared to reality.  The pain and frustration and fear you feel are genuine emotions, no matter what.  But the degree to which those fears are based on real threats is not, and thats where you (and many others) get stuck.  You can continue to live your life seeking absolute concrete certainty, none of us can make the choice to change for you, but if you do so you will remain stuck, you will remain limited by OCD forever.  You may believe you are making the "safer" choice, but ask yourself, at what cost?  What are you losing to keep this sense of security?  Is it really worth it?  And if so many people around you are wrong, why are they able to enjoy life more?

[paradoxer]

12 hours ago, ineedahug said:

I have hit a wall in my recovery. The wall is this: I never want to simply assume my fears are illegitimate and untrue. They probably are, but I can't assume anything. Assumptions are stupid and they cause people to be wrong all the time. It's like lying to yourself, and I refuse to lie to myself to protect myself.

So since I'm not coming to the concrete, absolute conclusion that the fears are nonsense, I have no resolution.

I could sit with the uncertainty for days, but in order to finally find some peace, I need to close the case somehow, which means doing a compulsion. I've read some people with OCD get over this stuff within a few hours after sitting with the uncertainty, but for me time does not seem to help.

So in order to be okay, and not live with weeks of maddening uncertainty, I need to act as if the fear is real, just in case it is. I'm not assuming it's real-- just like I'm not assuming it is nonsense-- I don't know either way. So I err on the side of caution, which generally speaking is a good idea. 

Sometimes it seems the only difference between me and a normal person is that my eyes are open. I see the threats they never think of, because they are too busy closing their eyes, covering their ears, and saying "blah blah blah."

I know there is something that doesn't quite work with these beliefs, because they are keeping me stuck, but these are my beliefs, until someone can change my mind. 

The OCD behavior comes from a belief that goes like this:

I am protecting myself from possible threats, and the reason I must do that is because I see the possibility of these threats, while others don't. I don't know if the threats are legit, but if I was to assume one way or the other, that would be foolish. I'd be just like all those lost people who believe whatever they want to believe. I'd be sticking my head in the sand. 

Can anyone relate to this? I'm looking for empathy (not validation) and sound reasoning.

If foolishness comes into it ... I'm not sure it's the right word, but if it were, it'd be ascribed to those who jump to the dictates of a disorder. 

[Saffie]

11 hours ago, dksea said:

So, you have two choices, go through a door or stay in the safe room forever.  Eventually the other 9 people leave through 9 different doors.  They figure, hey, at least 8 of us will make it out safe that way.  They can't be 100% certain they have chosen the right door, literally they have a 1 in 100 chance of death, but they choose anyway because the odds are really good for them to be safe AND the reward is worth taking the chance.  But you, dear Ineedahug, would sit in the locked room forever, because you will NEVER be absolutely certain which doors are safe and which door is not. No matter how much time you think about it, no matter how much you investigate the doors or wonder, you will never know until you try.  You would, by your own admission, choose the safer route of just staying put.  Or would you?  If you are thinking to yourself "this is ridiculous, of course I wouldn't sit in the room forever, I'd want to get out" then you are saying that you DON'T have to be 100% concrete certain, that you ARE willing to make assumptions (which, you definitely are btw).

dskea - this is a fantastic analogy and response. Thank you! Helped me also.

[Flipfix]

On 12/11/2018 at 17:08, ineedahug said:

Can anyone relate to this? I'm looking for empathy (not validation) and sound reasoning.

Yepp. Can relate to this big time !!

Make sure you are accepting uncertainty for the right reason ... so not because you are not prepared to accept it and just want to trick it into going away. It will go away, but only once you say : "I don't care, let whatever horrible thing happen" then it loses its hold on you.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Flipfix

[Em00]

On 13/11/2018 at 01:10, dksea said:

 

 

Interesting discussion. 

The big thing I struggle with is HOW? 

How do you get your brain to accept the uncertainty? I know this is what I need to do, but my brain just won't play ball... 

[malina]

3 hours ago, Em00 said:

Interesting discussion. 

The big thing I struggle with is HOW? 

How do you get your brain to accept the uncertainty? I know this is what I need to do, but my brain just won't play ball... 

I think learning to accept uncertainty is hard for anybody, not just for those of us with OCD. I think it comes with tons of practice. Also, learning not to fixate on the fear of uncertainty - I think it's fine to feel horrible about uncertainty, but you can acknowledge that feeling and then try to actively engage in other things so that you don't spend all your time worrying about it. 

I also think that having belief in your ability to cope with the percieved negative outcome helps, because it makes it less catastrophic. If you are uncertain about something, instead of worrying about the outcome, you can remind yourself of the resources that you have to deal with the negative event if it does happen. I've found that negative outcomes are rarely as awful as we think they will be, once you're in the bad situation, there are a lot of other things happening that help you get through it. Just like you don't know if a negative outcome is real or not, you are also not aware of all of the potential sources that could help you in that situation. 

What I've been told in the past is that if something bad happens to you, you experience it once, but when you worry about it, you experience if 100s of times. 

 

[malina]

On 12/11/2018 at 16:08, ineedahug said:

 

Sometimes it seems the only difference between me and a normal person is that my eyes are open. I see the threats they never think of, because they are too busy closing their eyes, covering their ears, and saying "blah blah blah."

 

 

That is a really interesting point and I think it really hits the nail on the head in terms of what anxiety is. This is exactly what our brain is doing - it's looking for threats in the environment and sending out stress signals to our body, even in the absence of any real danger. That is why we suffer from anxiety, because we can't shut off this danger signal. So, you're absolutely right, you're eyes are open, but they don't need to be. In fact, it's not efficient, because your body is using up its resources in situations where there is no real danger.

I also get that you don't want to lie to yourself, but perhaps you could think of it as an educated guess rather than an assumption. Think of the thing you're worried about - what information do you have? Also, think about what you know of OCD. Does some of your reasoning in your worry sound like OCD? Is there any evidence that you're in real danger? If not, make an educated guess that it's OCD and maybe re-evaluate this decision if any new information comes to light. If you automatically want to assume that something is dangerous, you are also lying to yourself.

Edited November 16, 2018 by malina
Wanted to add more info

[Em00]

2 hours ago, malina said:

 

I also think that having belief in your ability to cope with the percieved negative outcome helps, because it makes it less catastrophic. If you are uncertain about something, instead of worrying about the outcome, you can remind yourself of the resources that you have to deal with the negative event if it does happen. I've found that negative outcomes are rarely as awful as we think they will be, once you're in the bad situation, there are a lot of other things happening that help you get through it. Just like you don't know if a negative outcome is real or not, you are also not aware of all of the potential sources that could help you in that situation.

 

People say 'oh what's the worst that could happen?' But my worst case scenario is going to prison, and then I get caught up obsessing 'how would I cope with going to prison?' (I wouldn't)

[Guest OCDhavenobrain]

22 hours ago, Em00 said:

Interesting discussion. 

The big thing I struggle with is HOW? 

How do you get your brain to accept the uncertainty? I know this is what I need to do, but my brain just won't play ball... 

Yes "how", that is the big question, isn't it?  You need to leave that question behind you too.  

[dksea]

On 17/11/2018 at 01:27, Em00 said:

The big thing I struggle with is HOW? 

How do you get your brain to accept the uncertainty? I know this is what I need to do, but my brain just won't play ball... 

Practice.  Its as "simple" as that.  Now I put quotes around simple because any OCD sufferer can tell you that part is incredibly hard, but just like learning any difficult skill or achieving any difficult task, the reality is that repeated, targeted work is pretty much the way to go.  You go from being unable to read a note to being able to play a piano concerto by practicing over and over and over again.  You go from being a total couch potato to being able to run a marathon by practicing (exercise) over and over and over again.  You train your brain to stop responding to uncertainty and doubt with panic and anxiety by practicing not responding over and over and over again.  You have to unlearn the behaviors that you fell in to when your OCD hit in the first place.  The bad news is its not a quick fix, the good news is it works and has lasting positive effects on your life.  Things like medication can help, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot, but you still have to work at retraining your brain and how you respond.