gingerbreadgirl Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 A question for anyone with experience of CBT, not necessity just for ocd. Do you think it is truly possible to change a core belief if you've had it since childhood? Or do you think it will always be there to some degree? Link to comment
Gemma7 Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 Well that's an easy question! You couldn't have just asked what OCD stands for Ok, being serious, i don't really believe in core beliefs at all, just beliefs. I also think there is an over focus on beliefs we have about ourselves all the while ignoring beliefs about others and the world. All three types of beliefs shape what we think and feel and how we react. Do i think you can change beliefs? Yes, some easier than others though. Beliefs that were developed in childhood can take a lot of work to change. It requires honesty, no judgement and excellent tools to help us understand who we are and how we have got to where we are now. I don't think about changing beliefs but more about learning new ones. When we are young we learn through experience, we learn if people are friendly and how scary the world is. It is our internal working model, but we can adapt it for the present by learning in the present. Link to comment
taurean Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 We can disprove OCD core beliefs in CBT so they no longer are believed so have no relevance. When we accept with CBT that we are not the bad person OCD says we are through, for example, a harm, paedophile, unfaithfulness core belief, those beliefs fade away. The more over time they have become a dug-in learned behaviour though, the more difficult may it be to accept that OCD core belief is not true and adopt a new learned behaviour free of that core belief. Link to comment
gingerbreadgirl Posted November 15, 2018 Author Share Posted November 15, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Gemma7 said: Well that's an easy question! You couldn't have just asked what OCD stands for haha! - what does OCD stand for, btw? Twitter tells me it's "obsessive christmas disorder". 27 minutes ago, Gemma7 said: Ok, being serious, i don't really believe in core beliefs at all, just beliefs. I also think there is an over focus on beliefs we have about ourselves all the while ignoring beliefs about others and the world. All three types of beliefs shape what we think and feel and how we react. Do i think you can change beliefs? Yes, some easier than others though. Beliefs that were developed in childhood can take a lot of work to change. It requires honesty, no judgement and excellent tools to help us understand who we are and how we have got to where we are now. I don't think about changing beliefs but more about learning new ones. When we are young we learn through experience, we learn if people are friendly and how scary the world is. It is our internal working model, but we can adapt it for the present by learning in the present. I find it reassuring that you think that. However I do have a nagging feeling that some beliefs are impossible to change, particularly if they are not based on any rational evidence. I know that my core belief (or just belief) around being bad/defective etc. is not based in reality, not really, but it is a hugely convincing feeling I have which colours absolutely everything I do and has limited me in many ways (and also underpinned my OCD). In times of stress it always comes to the fore. I wouldn't really know how to challenge it with evidence because I already know the evidence doesn't really stack up. I've had therapy for it and it did absolutely nothing. I could be a life-saving head of Mensa, adored by millions, and I would still feel like this! Edited November 15, 2018 by gingerbreadgirl Link to comment
Angst Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 (edited) This is mentioned in CBT for OCD. There are examples of the establishment of core beliefs and how to reframe them in therapy. The book is targeted for therapists, but as Ashley has mentioned in another thread, the book is an illuminating read for therapists and sufferers alike. The writers of the book -all specialists in OCD - have been influenced in part by compassion based therapy. Edited November 15, 2018 by Angst Link to comment
PolarBear Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 Starting at age 11, I believed I was a bad, unworthy person, for nearly 40 years. I believed that because of my thoughts. Only bad people have thoughts of hitting people with hammers. Today I no longer think that. Took a lot of work to change that belief, but it sure was worth it. Link to comment
gingerbreadgirl Posted November 15, 2018 Author Share Posted November 15, 2018 Hi all, Thanks very much for the input. Polarbear - I think there is a difference between feelings of unworthiness brought on by OCD (which are relieved when OCD is treated), and feelings that existed prior to OCD. My OCD is actually pretty good right now which is why I am coming round to addressing this. My feelings of unworthiness - or rather my fear of unworthiness - is not based on anything such as my OCD thoughts, or anything else. It is a feeling I've had my whole life. Link to comment
PolarBear Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 (edited) I think where the faulty belief comes from is irrelevant. It's simply a belief, something that you can challenge and change in your mind. People used to believe the Earth was flat. Belief by definition means there is no evidence. People changed their beliefs when real evidence was found. Same would hold true for a fear of being unworthy. Search for evidence you are worthy. Edited November 15, 2018 by PolarBear Link to comment
gingerbreadgirl Posted November 15, 2018 Author Share Posted November 15, 2018 Honestly I know there is evidence I am worthy - doing exactly that was what my therapist got me to do. The evidence makes absolutely no difference to how I feel. The problem is not one of evidence and it is not something I can rationally challenge because I know it isn't based in fact. Link to comment
PolarBear Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 When you get feelings or thoughts that you are unworthy, what do you do? Link to comment
gingerbreadgirl Posted November 15, 2018 Author Share Posted November 15, 2018 I have that feeling almost constantly, it is not an active feeling per se, or not usually, it is just there humming in the background. If you're asking if I have safety behaviours then I think yes I do, many. Link to comment
PolarBear Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 (edited) Yeah, thought so. I wonder if they are akin to compulsions, drawing attention to the thoughts. Edited November 15, 2018 by PolarBear Link to comment
taurean Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 (edited) I think this is an important discussion for GBG. Firstly, is it OCD - with obsessional repetitive thinking, feelings of being bad, the carrying out of compulsions and the result distress and anxiety (disorder)? Or secondly is it lack of self-worth due to some other thinking distortion, or an essential lack of confidence in our psychological makeup? Also, remember that CBT is an evidence -based therapy. Using it we establish the OCD core belief underpinning the thoughts, see how there is falsehood exaggeration or revulsion behind it, then challenge that. Edited November 15, 2018 by taurean Link to comment
gingerbreadgirl Posted November 15, 2018 Author Share Posted November 15, 2018 Thanks very much both. I have had CBT for this issue but it didn't work at all. I am trying to figure it out myself but I don't think building evidence is the answer and to do so can become compulsive in my case. Gbg x Link to comment
Gemma7 Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 I thought it was good Wren I think you can only edit for so long after posting, that might be why. Firstly, like Angst said if you haven't read CBT for OCD, the therapist version of Break free from OCD, then do. That or look into compassion based therapy as an add on to your CBT. I don't think looking for evidence for worthiness is CBT. CBT is about looking at how we think and how we behave and testing out how one affects the other. Looking for evidence for worthiness, like you both seem to have discovered, is worse than useless. I really think GBG that you need to look at a time when you felt particularly worthless and consider what was going on at that moment, including what was going through your head. You were not born feeling worthless, instead you have come to a conclusion you are worthless from experiences you've had. 6 hours ago, gingerbreadgirl said: I could be a life-saving head of Mensa, adored by millions, and I would still feel like this This doesn't surprise me, i wouldn't either. Can i ask, what do you want people to adore you for, i mean what do you value in people? Link to comment
Orwell1984 Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 7 hours ago, gingerbreadgirl said: A question for anyone with experience of CBT, not necessity just for ocd. Do you think it is truly possible to change a core belief if you've had it since childhood? Or do you think it will always be there to some degree? I don't think it's possible to eliminate a faulty core belief entirely but identifying the core belief when something triggers it in various situations can take the sting out of it and give you impartial spectator distance and acceptance of letting it be. I think the core beliefs we picked up at a very young age are there to stay, just like intrusive thoughts really Link to comment
taurean Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 (edited) I wouldn't agree with that. My wife has a negative core belief, via the cognitive distortion of mind-reading, that others have a negative opinion of her,want to do her down. Now, because I have taken an interest in CBT beyond its use in OCD, which she doesn't have - though she does have various phobias, in particular medical ones - I know to deal with this by evidence-based CBT. Gradually she is beginning to see how the thinking distortion of mind-reading takes a sliver of potential evidence and makes it exaggerated into the apparently "real" thing. Each time she goes off on a mind-read,I drag her back to reality and she is doing so so much better now - she can at least, so far, accept that not everybody is trying to do her down, provide a lousy service, they are only in it for the money etc.etc. When she has completed the therapy, that core belief will be overcome and wither away. My mother-in-law was a great black and white thinker. But she loved and trusted me, so every time her thinking went all or nothing, I would show her where the grey was. She got a whole lot better. Edited November 16, 2018 by taurean Link to comment
Pranjali Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 (edited) Hello everyone, slightly off the topic - can you suggest a few books on CBT for OCD and Anxiety which I can read as self help books? Thank you in advance for your support and advise. Edited November 16, 2018 by Pranjali Link to comment
taurean Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Hi Pranjali Can you open up a new topic on that subject, and that will keep this thread working towards helping Gingerbreadgirl? Link to comment
Pranjali Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Sure, I am sorry about that. Link to comment
dksea Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 It might be more difficult to change a particular belief based on various factors (length of belief, depth of feeling about belief, how tightly belief is coupled with sense of identity, etc.) but if you work at it I believe pretty much any belief can be changed. I mean thats at the core of CBT which has definitely been proven to work and neuroplasticity is a scientifically proven phenomenon. Of course a willingness to have ones belief changed/to change ones belief is a major component as well. Changing a belief that someone does not wish to change is difficult at best! There is probably also something to be said for unconscious or unnoticed behaviors and thinking that sabotages our own efforts to change a belief. Link to comment
gingerbreadgirl Posted November 16, 2018 Author Share Posted November 16, 2018 6 hours ago, Gemma7 said: I really think GBG that you need to look at a time when you felt particularly worthless and consider what was going on at that moment, including what was going through your head. You were not born feeling worthless, instead you have come to a conclusion you are worthless from experiences you've had. Hi Gemma, Thanks again for your input - you're like my go-to CBT expert! you should charge by the hour OK so I think the real issue isn't necessarily a feeling of unworthiness, but a fear of unworthiness which really pervades everything I do - a sense that my worthiness is very unstable and conditional on many factors and can vanish at the drop of a hat. When asked logically I can say, I think I'm Ok as a person, I contribute X, Y or Z, etc. But it can tumble down like a house of jenga at the drop of a hat. I know that I have a very black and white viewpoint with regards to good and bad which I've been working on. I don't feel like that about others, though. 7 hours ago, Gemma7 said: Can i ask, what do you want people to adore you for, i mean what do you value in people? I was being facetious when i said that I wouldn't want people to adore me, honestly, in fact I would hate that. What I really want is to just feel OK in myself. So much of my life has been built round this feeling and it affects me in so many ways it's almost like it's just become normal. During this last year when I've had bad OCD (which is very much connected to this) I have spent a lot of time thinking about it, and I find myself feeling very angry and resentful about it - but who with?? No one's done this to me, it's just happened, for various reasons. I feel angry but I have no one to feel angry with, I've had an incredibly fortunate life and honestly I have no reason to feel like this. Link to comment
gingerbreadgirl Posted November 16, 2018 Author Share Posted November 16, 2018 6 hours ago, Orwell1984 said: I don't think it's possible to eliminate a faulty core belief entirely but identifying the core belief when something triggers it in various situations can take the sting out of it and give you impartial spectator distance and acceptance of letting it be. I think the core beliefs we picked up at a very young age are there to stay, just like intrusive thoughts really hi Orwell, Thanks for this - I have a deep down feeling that you're right. i think beliefs that were carved out during early childhood are very pernicious and difficult to eliminate. The acceptance/impartial spectator stance is a good one to aim for. thank you Hope you're doing OK. Link to comment
gingerbreadgirl Posted November 16, 2018 Author Share Posted November 16, 2018 5 hours ago, taurean said: I wouldn't agree with that. My wife has a negative core belief, via the cognitive distortion of mind-reading, that others have a negative opinion of her,want to do her down. Now, because I have taken an interest in CBT beyond its use in OCD, which she doesn't have - though she does have various phobias, in particular medical ones - I know to deal with this by evidence-based CBT. Gradually she is beginning to see how the thinking distortion of mind-reading takes a sliver of potential evidence and makes it exaggerated into the apparently "real" thing. Each time she goes off on a mind-read,I drag her back to reality and she is doing so so much better now - she can at least, so far, accept that not everybody is trying to do her down, provide a lousy service, they are only in it for the money etc.etc. When she has completed the therapy, that core belief will be overcome and wither away. My mother-in-law was a great black and white thinker. But she loved and trusted me, so every time her thinking went all or nothing, I would show her where the grey was. She got a whole lot better. Hi Roy, Thanks for this. Sounds like you've done an incredibly good job with your wife's thought patterns - she is very lucky to have someone so knowledgeable in her corner x Link to comment
gingerbreadgirl Posted November 16, 2018 Author Share Posted November 16, 2018 3 hours ago, dksea said: There is probably also something to be said for unconscious or unnoticed behaviors and thinking that sabotages our own efforts to change a belief. Hi dksea, Yes I think the unconscious/unnoticed behaviours probably play a big part in all this. Trying to get to the bottom of it is exhausting because I am trying to do so while looking through my own lens, if you get what I mean! I know people say I should do this with a therapist but honestly I don't have any faith in a therapist being able to get to the bottom of this. I am not that good at explaining myself face to face and in my experience people grab the first thing I say and run with that. Sometimes I need time to work out what I really do mean! Link to comment
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