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CBT question - is it really possible to change core beliefs?


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1 hour ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

if you get what I mean! I know people say I should do this with a therapist but honestly I don't have any faith in a therapist being able to get to the bottom of this.  I am not that good at explaining myself face to face and in my experience people grab the first thing I say and run with that. Sometimes I need time to work out what I really do mean! 

I can understand your reluctance to trust a therapist, especially if you've had less than productive experiences in the past, but I think an outside perspective can be very useful and a skilled/well trained therapist would not only be patient enough not to jump on the first thing you say, but could also help you communicate what you mean.  That said, it is of course a very personal choice and I don't blame you for wanting to tackle it on your own.  But I do hope you will keep that option in mind, just because past therapists haven't worked out doesn't mean a future one might not be a great fit after all!

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2 hours ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

Hi dksea,

Yes I think the unconscious/unnoticed behaviours probably play a big part in all this.  Trying to get to the bottom of it is exhausting because I am trying to do so while looking through my own lens, if you get what I mean! I know people say I should do this with a therapist but honestly I don't have any faith in a therapist being able to get to the bottom of this.  I am not that good at explaining myself face to face and in my experience people grab the first thing I say and run with that. Sometimes I need time to work out what I really do mean! 

This makes perfect sense. 

There are probably people out there, but how to find them?

That is why here - where there are no pre-conceived ideas or time constraints, is a good place for us all to bring issues that need a little more in depth, and blue sky, thinking. 

 

Edited by taurean
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2 hours ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

Hi Roy,

Thanks for this.  Sounds like you've done an incredibly good job with your wife's thought patterns - she is very lucky to have someone so knowledgeable in her corner :) x

CBT works if it's done right. 

( amazingly, my local " field of operations " has moved on to helping a friend and her delightful young ten-year-old boy who has autism and black-and-white thinking and panic attacks. 

The local children's mental health team have provided only some group therapy. 

But I found some good free children's videos to help him calm and relax on You Tube, and a great children's CBT workbook covering his issues - which another friend has bought for him). 

And of course, when we help others, we also improve our own feelings of self-worth :)

 

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I knew you were joking about the mensa thing but you ignored the question. What you value in people, is what you will value in yourself. Acting according to those values, the things that make you feel good inside is what will help build some self-love. It also helps you realise that sometimes the people around you have different values to you (not a bad thing just a thing) and that difference can be why we sometimes feel negative around certain people at certain times. Like when they celebrate something you wouldn't or place importance on something you wouldn't. For example, some people care about how they look to others and focus their attention on your and their appearance, if you don't care, then it can be upsetting to have things that you were ok with pointed out. By seeing that they value things you don't, it helps to explain your feelings and give distance. For me this is how to start building your sense of who you are. 

5 hours ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

During this last year when I've had bad OCD (which is very much connected to this) I have spent a lot of time thinking about it, and I find myself feeling very angry and resentful about it - but who with?? No one's done this to me, it's just happened, for various reasons.  I feel angry but I have no one to feel angry with, I've had an incredibly fortunate life and honestly I have no reason to feel like this. 

I feel really harsh saying this, but I think this is your biggest problem. This is a lie you tell yourself that is consistent throughout all of your problems. It's not their fault it's mine. I'm the one who needs to change.

When i was a child I couldn't say negative things about anyone without feeling bad. I used to feel like I was exaggerating things for attention, beating myself up was like a hobby. It helps to view what has happened to you in your life through someone else's eyes, maybe a therapist's eyes. For the record my partner helped me through lots of this, having a third party observe my life as it happened gave me the perspective i always needed.

For you the problem with seeing a therapist seems to be that you don't feel you can represent your problem 'right'. I mean how can you complain about your mum (for example) while absolving her of all responsibility for any wrongdoing. You can't. In every relationship all parties are equally responsible (if they are all adults). You need to be able to represent things how you want without correction. So you say something that is one sided and from your point of view,  that's fine, what other point of view could you have!?

Your life may have been fortunate but that does not explain why you fear unworthiness, you need an explanation and a one without judgement. The thing is you need a bloody good therapist, so you have to be picky :)

Also, I looked into attachment theory and found it helpful :)

 

Edit: wanted to add, you don't need to tell us your values, they are personal to you, but definitely think of them for yourself x

Edited by Gemma7
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4 hours ago, dksea said:

I can understand your reluctance to trust a therapist, especially if you've had less than productive experiences in the past, but I think an outside perspective can be very useful and a skilled/well trained therapist would not only be patient enough not to jump on the first thing you say, but could also help you communicate what you mean.  That said, it is of course a very personal choice and I don't blame you for wanting to tackle it on your own.  But I do hope you will keep that option in mind, just because past therapists haven't worked out doesn't mean a future one might not be a great fit after all!

Thanks dksea, I will try to keep an open mind and not rule out out :) 

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3 hours ago, taurean said:

CBT works if it's done right. 

( amazingly, my local " field of operations " has moved on to helping a friend and her delightful young ten-year-old boy who has autism and black-and-white thinking and panic attacks. 

The local children's mental health team have provided only some group therapy. 

But I found some good free children's videos to help him calm and relax on You Tube, and a great children's CBT workbook covering his issues - which another friend has bought for him). 

And of course, when we help others, we also improve our own feelings of self-worth :)

 

This is amazing you are doing this, it must make such a difference and also be very rewarding for you :) 

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1 hour ago, Gemma7 said:

 

I feel really harsh saying this, but I think this is your biggest problem. This is a lie you tell yourself that is consistent throughout all of your problems. It's not their fault it's mine. I'm the one who needs to change.

 

It doesn't sound harsh at all and I think you're right. I do this and I know it's because I think if I admit to someone I love being flawed is like I'm saying they're terrible. This is black and white thinking I know, and I think is maybe something I've grown up with. Both my mum and my partner are very black and white and they both influence me a huge amount. So I grew up around this view that things are either terrible or amazing, good or bad, special or awful - always binary, never any grey. And I think that I have this view that if I'm not perfect /special then I am awful /terrible, and I will get rejected by these important people in my life.  I will admit that my mum, although very very kind, is also sometimes volatile and will ride roughshod over my opinion even as an adult. (There, I said it, no correction! Even though I'm already starting to think it's unfair!) 

I think that as a child my version of "reality" was often overruled if my mum didn't agree with it. And I adopted a rule that if my mum thinks something it must be right. I have I think now transferred this to my partner to some extent (she is trying to help me stop doing this.) I know I need to think more for myself. I need to stop viewing things through their eyes and view things through my own. I know so much of this stuff but knowing it doesn't really help me. In some ways I wish I could just go back to feeling happy with my safety behaviors!

Thanks gemma, it's much appreciated :) 

 

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15 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

I know so much of this stuff but knowing it doesn't really help me. In some ways I wish I could just go back to feeling happy with my safety behaviors!

You are right, knowing it is not enough, you have to change how you behave in line with what you now know.

And stuff those safety behaviours! You deserve better than them, plus they got you into this mess don't forget. 

If i were you, I'd start work on freeing up my mind to think whatever i want as much as i want without correction or neutralising it. Your internal space is yours to do what you want with just like anyone else. Also, you need to forgive yourself as much and as often as you can. What you've learnt so far is none of the behaviours, including beating yourself up achieve your goal. What i mean is you don't feel like anyone will reject you less than you did before. In fact I'm willing to bet that every insight you have is when you've broken away from all these safety behaviours and allowed yourself to think and act differently with things. What if letting yourself off the hook will actually achieve your goal, help you see things clearer. You need to try for you, you deserve it!

Well done for not correcting yourself too x

Edited by Gemma7
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Ha yeah you're right, most of these insights have come from breaking that safety net. But I feel icky going against these ingrained behaviours, like I am being disloyal. I don't mind thinking things so much, but I feel uncomfortable saying them out loud or on here. It feels wrong. Anyway, thank you again - i really appreciate it x

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Of course it feels wrong because you don't let yourself do it. It's just the same as the anxiety cycle with OCD. You have excellent insight, that's a start, you just need to take baby steps, expect the discomfort, but look towards your goal.

If I say my mum is a pain in the bum, am I being disloyal or am I saying how I feel? It's clearly the second. Would she care that I said it, prefer I didn't and was miserable because of it or would she want me to say it and not torture myself. Clearly the second. No one wants you to feel this way, that's why you give yourself the permission to tackle this. Also, saying things out loud or on here doesn't mean more. I'VE WON THE LOTTERY - see :wink:

 

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If I said my mum was being a pain in the bum she would assume I was joking and she wouldn't mind. But if I said what I said above she would be extremely bothered and would put pressure on me to retract It.  She would never accept it's OK for me to think it or that there could be any truth in it. She has always had an issue with me thinking differently to her although she would never be able to see that. 

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Your mum being bothered by what you said and wanting you not to have said it is normal, I don't want people to think something negative about me either. But not accepting it's ok to think it, is her issue not yours. The problem is, you are making it your issue. No one can control what other people think and feel and trying to do that causes problems. Problems for the individual asked to control what they think and problems in the relationship between the two individuals. 

Remember having a different perspective to someone else in the exact situation is normal. No two people experience a situation the same, that goes for people in the same family too. Sometimes you have to accept your version of events may never be accepted as how it was, but it doesn’t mean you are wrong (which seems like the conclusion you usually draw).

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Guest OCDhavenobrain

So i remembered yesterday that I had thoughts about being harmed in childhood. Not being in "mint condition", and it not being reversible was really scary. Also remembered yesterday that I actually explicity thought about it that way. 

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38 minutes ago, Gemma7 said:

Your mum being bothered by what you said and wanting you not to have said it is normal, I don't want people to think something negative about me either. But not accepting it's ok to think it, is her issue not yours. The problem is, you are making it your issue. No one can control what other people think and feel and trying to do that causes problems. Problems for the individual asked to control what they think and problems in the relationship between the two individuals. 

Remember having a different perspective to someone else in the exact situation is normal. No two people experience a situation the same, that goes for people in the same family too. Sometimes you have to accept your version of events may never be accepted as how it was, but it doesn’t mean you are wrong (which seems like the conclusion you usually draw).

Thanks gemma. That makes sense. I am feeling already that I've given the wrong impression here, made myself out to be the innocent party in all this. I know I know what you'll say :) 

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22 minutes ago, OCDhavenobrain said:

So i remembered yesterday that I had thoughts about being harmed in childhood. Not being in "mint condition", and it not being reversible was really scary. Also remembered yesterday that I actually explicity thought about it that way. 

Hi ocdhavenobrain 

Not sure if you meant to post this on a different thread?

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Guest OCDhavenobrain
2 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

Hi ocdhavenobrain 

Not sure if you meant to post this on a different thread?

No it was a reply to what you said about being defective. My point is that I think that core-values probably are so deep rooted that we sometimes don't even think about them, because they have been there for such a long time. But I do think that one can rethink and relearn.

Edited by OCDhavenobrain
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Just now, OCDhavenobrain said:

No it was a reply to what you said about being defective. My point is that I think that core-values probably are so deep rooted that we sometimes don't even think about them, because they have been there for such a long time. But I do think that one can rethink and relearn.

Ah ok my mistake, that makes sense!

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Guest OCDhavenobrain
1 minute ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

Ah ok my mistake, that makes sense!

Fears which started in childhood have got so automated that they don't even come with thoughts. But I don't know how useful it is to analyze OCD-fears one had in childhood, atleast not too much. And I am not saying that there had to be any reason for the fear, so I am not suggesting psychodynamics, I am just saying that the irrational thought started back then. 

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