OCD as a symptom of other issues?

[Saffie]

I've been wondering about this the past year and would like to hear others' thoughts. As a background, I had my first severe OCD episode at 16, it is my primary diagnosis and it was on the severe end for several years. Even during all my hospital admissions, they considered other things like bipolar and depression, but OCD was always my 'main' problem.

However, as the years went on, after my partying days ended and I finally began to sit with myself in meditation etc, I started to move away from the whole OCD label. The more healing and work I did, both alone and with therapists, the more I'm beginning to realise that my OCD was more of a symptom than a disorder on its own. By this I mean, it was a defense mechanism for control, but it was far from the root problem. Not that I want or would even accept any further diagnoses as I think it's unnecessary to diagnose and label everything. I'm not looking for that.

But with OCD treatment, mainly cbt, I've found there is little to address underlying causes. It has become more obvious to me that certain traumas triggered these fears, as well as deep cognitive distortions from upbringing etc. Primarily, I feel my obsessive fears were a by-product of constantly trying to validate myself externally due to not learning to develop a stable sense of self. The deep shame that has always accompanied that is the real root of all of it, and that shame ultimately lead to a breakdown from which emerged these ocd fears. For years I feared I was evil, a paedophile, a sociopath etc etc, when the real issue was that I really hated myself, and my brain sort of used these stereotypes to obsess over to try and avoid the fact that inherently I had no clue who I was. It's so glaringly obvious now, I wonder why did it take so long for this to become clear.

Also, while I'm not a fan of talking psychotherapies, I wonder why this isn't discussed more in therapy for OCD. I'd say there are many people who's ocd is a collection of coping mechanisms for feelings of guilt, shame and unworthiness. While knowing this isn't going to solve the problem, awareness of it seems very important. Should it not be a part of therapy, where you're not only challenging thoughts, exposing yourself to the fears and learning to live with uncertainty, but you're also working to amend and transform that underlying negative self image? I think if this was done together it might be much more effective. However, the CBT therapists I've had have generally not been interested in that side of things, they just want to focus on changing how you react to the thoughts. Which is essential, but not always the whole picture? When I tried to bring up other stuff before they just kind of brushed it off and were keen to get back to the 'script'.

From learning more about myself I understand more now why many therapists call CBT  a 'top down' therapy. As in, it works on a surface level, but it doesn't really change much on a deeper subconscious level long term. For instance, mental imbalance of any kind is felt on a cellular level, so we need to work to process this through our entire nervous system (such as with body work/therapy etc), not just wait for it to filter down through conscious reconditioning. What do you think?

 

[gingerbreadgirl]

Hi saffie

This post could have been written by me! (Only I would have written it far less eloquently ). This just about sums up my thinking on so many of my issues around ocd, sense of self and coping mechanisms. I also agree not enough thought is given to the underlying reasons for ocd and often they are dismissed or only considered in a shallow way. I am sure my ocd sprung out of a sense of self-loathing and not the other way round. I also feel I never really developed a proper sense of self and instead absorbed that of other people around me. I can see so clearly that I have many unhealthy coping mechanisms and at the heart of this is a sense of hating myself, hating the person I am, and fearing that the hatred is justified.  It colours everything I do. 

Thank you for writing this and putting words to so much of what I've been thinking. 

[Guest OCDhavenobrain]

I really don't am I little bit confused. But I think I might be on to what you are trying to say. You are no fan of psychodynamics but you wonder why it is not discussed more?

The reason why I personally am very strict when it comes to the importance of ERP is that I don't believe in psychodynamics and I plain and simple think that people with OCD in some way need the strictness which ERP gives or the mind will start to wandering away. And away it goes. Which seems logical to me, because otherwise we wouldn't have it.

Edited December 3, 2018 by OCDhavenobrain

[Saffie]

Just now, gingerbreadgirl said:

This post could have been written by me! (Only I would have written it far less eloquently ). This just about sums up my thinking on so many of my issues around ocd, sense of self and coping mechanisms. I also agree not enough thought is given to the underlying reasons for ocd and often they are dismissed or only considered in a shallow way. I am sure my ocd sprung out of a sense of self-loathing and not the other way round. I also feel I never really developed a proper sense of self and instead absorbed that of other people around me. I can see so clearly that I have many unhealthy coping mechanisms and at the heart of this is a sense of hating myself, hating the person I am, and fearing that the hatred is justified.  It colours everything I do. 

Thank you for writing this and putting words to so much of what I've been thinking. 

Exactly! I guess I'm realising some of these things now and I just think, why wasn't this picked up before now? I know we have to learn things for ourselves with time and experience, but there are sooo many layers of **** I can see I have to address, and it's like...how much more is there that I was so unaware of? Why did I waste so many years seeing doctors, psychiatrists, etc, only for the real issues to emerge in the last year after I'd completely detached from the medical world? This has been especially painful since coming off medication, it really triggered the whole 'I'm scared I am lying to myself/don't know who I am' etc. Because it's true, I didn't know who I was! I thought I did, but I absolutely didn't. In fact I was way off the mark. My whole 'idea' of who I was generally was not really in line with reality. Funnily enough, all the while I was sitting obsessing over whether I was a specific kind of monster, I was actually being and becoming what I feared most underneath...a weak, scared, self-absorbed mess who was 'not as good as everyone else'. I kept reassuring myself in various ways that I was 'good' and responsible/capable/successful etc, when really I'd become an embarrassment. I have one friend left from all those years and I think it's safe to say that she herself would say the same.

It's funny in a way because they say your thoughts become reality, and they do. But not in the way we think they will. Many of my worst fears all did come true in various ways because I obsessed and feared them for so long, just not in the specific way my obsessions projected. It just goes to show the damage that untreated stuff like OCD etc can do, if we don't start addressing it as early as we can, it can evolve into worse things that are much more difficult to come back from - in my case addiction, impulsive/reckless behaviour, anger problems, depression, probably what psychs would call personality disorder (I hate that term), self-hatred which ultimately affects and harms those around you too. The list goes on.

It's so easy to just muddle along and 'manage'. I really see the damage that can do over an extended period now. But I guess it's good to see these things and make steps towards healing. It can be overwhelming to see how much 'stuff' you have under the surface, at times I wish I was ignorant of it lol. Thanks for your reply gbg, I'm glad you found it helpful in a way.

[gingerbreadgirl]

I don't think anyone is saying cbt or erp doesn't work... Quite the opposite. I passionately believe in its effectiveness. But It's ok to discuss other issues which exist alongside ocd. If you don't want to do that you don't have to take part in the thread. 

[Saffie]

2 minutes ago, OCDhavenobrain said:

The reason why I personally am very strict when it comes to the importance of ERP is that I don't believe in psychodynamics and I plain and simple think that people with OCD in some way need the strictness which ERP gives or the mind will start to wandering away. And away it goes. Which seems logical to me, because otherwise we wouldn't have it.

Hi OCDhnb, thanks for your reply. What I mean is that, with things like CBT, there is often a focus on exposure etc, which is fine. I totally agree that people with OCD need to follow a set path with this so as not to become distracted. However, I find myself thinking that maybe it's not the whole picture. If someone doesn't directly address and re-frame a deeply unhealthy sense of self, then after the ERP etc is finished it's likely that the OCD symptoms will simply arise again eventually, perhaps in a different form. After all, our sense of self is the focal point from which we navigate and relate to the world. So I wonder if this should maybe be an important part of therapy, along with ERP?

[Guest OCDhavenobrain]

1 minute ago, Saffie said:

Exactly! I guess I'm realising some of these things now and I just think, why wasn't this picked up before now? I know we have to learn things for ourselves with time and experience, but there are sooo many layers of **** I can see I have to address, and it's like...how much more is there that I was so unaware of? Why did I waste so many years seeing doctors, psychiatrists, etc, only for the real issues to emerge in the last year after I'd completely detached from the medical world? This has been especially painful since coming off medication, it really triggered the whole 'I'm scared I am lying to myself/don't know who I am' etc. Because it's true, I didn't know who I was! I thought I did, but I absolutely didn't. In fact I was way off the mark. My whole 'idea' of who I was generally was not really in line with reality. Funnily enough, all the while I was sitting obsessing over whether I was a specific kind of monster, I was actually being and becoming what I feared most underneath...a weak, scared, self-absorbed mess who was 'not as good as everyone else'. I kept reassuring myself in various ways that I was 'good' and responsible/capable/successful etc, when really I'd become an embarrassment. I have one friend left from all those years and I think it's safe to say that she herself would say the same.

 It's funny in a way because they say your thoughts become reality, and they do. But not in the way we think they will. Many of my worst fears all did come true in various ways because I obsessed and feared them for so long, just not in the specific way my obsessions projected. It just goes to show the damage that untreated stuff like OCD etc can do, if we don't start addressing it as early as we can, it can evolve into worse things that are much more difficult to come back from - in my case addiction, impulsive/reckless behaviour, anger problems, depression, probably what psychs would call personality disorder (I hate that term), self-hatred which ultimately affects and harms those around you too. The list goes on.

It's so easy to just muddle along and 'manage'. I really see the damage that can do over an extended period now. But I guess it's good to see these things and make steps towards healing. It can be overwhelming to see how much 'stuff' you have under the surface, at times I wish I was ignorant of it lol. Thanks for your reply gbg, I'm glad you found it helpful in a way.

This I can agree too!! 

We become what we fear, selfabsorped and so on. Let''s face it, we with anxiety are very selfabsorped BUT it can be differently. 

When it comes to shame I just have to say that if OCD will grab onto shame. Having shame because you might be a psychopath is not really you having shame. 

[bluegas]

This could also be me I never post because I’m terrible with words but   I definitely relate to this post

[Saffie]

2 minutes ago, OCDhavenobrain said:

We become what we fear, selfabsorped and so on. Let''s face it, we with anxiety are very selfabsorped BUT it can be differently. 

When it comes to shame I just have to say that if OCD will grab onto shame. Having shame because you might be a psychopath is not really you having shame. 

We do, it's hard to realise that. But yes, it can be different with committed effort.

The shame from obsessional fears was really the same shame I'd always felt, just amplified. I remember feeling shame before I had any OCD fears. It was as if that shame was suppressed so much that it blew up eventually into OCD-type behaviours and fears.

[Saffie]

1 minute ago, bluegas said:

This could also be me I never post because I’m terrible with words but   I definitely relate to this post

It's brave of you to post! And while I'm sorry you can relate, I'm also glad you know you're not alone

[Guest OCDhavenobrain]

18 minutes ago, Saffie said:

Hi OCDhnb, thanks for your reply. What I mean is that, with things like CBT, there is often a focus on exposure etc, which is fine. I totally agree that people with OCD need to follow a set path with this so as not to become distracted. However, I find myself thinking that maybe it's not the whole picture. If someone doesn't directly address and re-frame a deeply unhealthy sense of self, then after the ERP etc is finished it's likely that the OCD symptoms will simply arise again eventually, perhaps in a different form. After all, our sense of self is the focal point from which we navigate and relate to the world. So I wonder if this should maybe be an important part of therapy, along with ERP?

I am sorry that I haven't managed to learn how to dissect a post. Here I go.

 

"Hi OCDhnb, thanks for your reply. What I mean is that, with things like CBT, there is often a focus on exposure etc, which is fine." 

I agree

" I totally agree that people with OCD need to follow a set path with this so as not to become distracted. However, I find myself thinking that maybe it's not the whole picture."

There is something more, something deeper, OCD is not the problem. I hear you. I have thought so myself. I am happy I don't live 20 years ago, I would be the first person who would be convinced that I had past forgotten memories which I needed to pick up and dissect, it was often about having been abused in childhood. I am happy I didn't live in that time. 

"then after the ERP etc is finished it's likely that the OCD symptoms will simply arise again eventually, perhaps in a different form." 

I agree again! I also think (nowdays) that we with OCD are inclined to this thinking, it will be a life-long process. SUCKS! 

"After all, our sense of self is the focal point from which we navigate and relate to the world. So I wonder if this should maybe be an important part of therapy, along with ERP?"

My wiev on this: "your true self" - you without OCD, what/who is even that? I really don't know who I am without OCD, because I have had it since I was 7. I guess I have to find out. I will probably always be inclined to wanting to worry. This is a pretty scary. I mean I am always getting this feeling when I have been depressed that I kinda miss it, and it makes me wonder, if weeks/months of a state makes me miss it (even if it was horrendous) how can not 20 years have formed me and made me a victim of Stockholm syndrome? Do you get what I am trying to say?

 

• Go to therapy and all of that if you want, just try to avoid psychotherapy. And when it comes to being scared of it all do I share your fear, and I think that life in itself can be pretty scary. Death is the ultimate uncertainty and we all face that one. It is just trying to accept that realisation which is hard. It is not like we with OCD have something completely own going here, most people fear uncertainty, it is just that it seems to have gotten too huge for us. 

Ultimately I want to find who I am. I am a believer in ego-death and all of that, but I don't think this is practical when it comes to dealing with OCD so I am not advicing people to get rid of OCD with that path. But I do think that what we suffers are facing is human nature (dialed up) and how can it not be? I mean we all have brains. Atleast this is how I see it. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by OCDhavenobrain

[bluegas]

7 minutes ago, Saffie said:

It's brave of you to post! And while I'm sorry you can relate, I'm also glad you know you're not alone

Thank you

[Dawnie]

Hi Saffie

Excellent post. I have also had 2 lots of CBT for rumination/intrusive thoughts. I didn’t feel it helped at the time but now I know it really helped and still does. I know exactly what your saying about OCD being a kind of protection mechanism. I still find this when I’m least exspecting it. I run clinics in hospital and my patient can be discussing something with me and I’m busy ruminating - so automatic. 

Compulsions become the norm and take away your previous helpful cognitions. Like the Brian gets so use to doing these negative habits and then they “move in”. 

My last therapist was good. While I was “progressing” with the CBT I started to get more emotional responces to stressful things which would normally made me have intrusions. So as I habitualised the intrusions I would instead get normal emotions/thoughts. I found these worrying as hadn’t had them for so long. Sometimes I would worry why I’ve become angry/annoyed etc. My therapist talked me through them and that they are normal responses to day to day stresses. He was great and I learnt a lot. 

I agree 100% with you that it’s a defence mechanisms and I don’t think it’s untill your well on the road to recovery that you can see OCD for what it really is. 

Thanks xx

 

[Saffie]

2 minutes ago, OCDhavenobrain said:

I am sorry that I haven't managed to learn how you dissect a post. Here I go.

 

"Hi OCDhnb, thanks for your reply. What I mean is that, with things like CBT, there is often a focus on exposure etc, which is fine." 

I agree

" I totally agree that people with OCD need to follow a set path with this so as not to become distracted. However, I find myself thinking that maybe it's not the whole picture."

There is something more, something deeper, OCD is not the problem. I hear you. I have thought so myself. I am happy I don't live 20 years ago, I would be the first person who would be convinced that I had false memories and that I have been abused in childhood. I am happy I don't live in that time. 

 

"then after the ERP etc is finished it's likely that the OCD symptoms will simply arise again eventually, perhaps in a different form." 
I agree again! I also think (nowdays) that we with OCD are inclined to this thinking, it will be a life-long process. SUCKS! 

 

"After all, our sense of self is the focal point from which we navigate and relate to the world. So I wonder if this should maybe be an important part of therapy, along with ERP?"

Look: your self of self without OCD, what is even that? I really don't know who I am without OCD, because I have had it since I was 7. I guess I have to find out. I will probably always be inclined to wanting to worry. 

I've not yet figured out how to dissect posts either lol, apologies.

I get you. I don't necessarily believe there was one particular 'trauma' that caused my OCD, I believe it's a combination of factors. But there is often an underlying driving factor that makes 'normal' levels of mental imbalance tip over into things like diagnosable OCD. So I think if we can identify those things, we might be in a much better position to heal and have a fuller recovery. I've always been inclined, similarly, to go deeply into things, so maybe this is why I feel this is important to me. I do have a memory where abuse might have occurred in childhood, but that's another story. I don't think I'll get the answer to that and I don't intend to go looking for an answer. But I always related strongly to abuse victims and have an unnaturally awkward attitude towards sex, along with other symptoms which did make me question whether something happened to disturb my sense of safety at a young age. That would certainly account for OCD behaviours. But again, I don't know. Sensitive/empathic people can pick up on others' feelings so maybe I'm just able to relate to those people for whatever reason.

Myself without OCD...well, I don't believe OCD is a definable part of me, it's an experience and a painful one, but it's not who I am. Going deeper into the nature of my self comes from spiritual practice, I understand not everyone is interested in this. But I think I'm what's underneath all those layers of conditioning, programming, ocd, depression, whatever. And while I'm not interested in discovering that exactly right now (I'm focusing on getting my mind more balanced first), ultimately, embodying the truth of who I am is important to me.

 

[Guest OCDhavenobrain]

15 minutes ago, Saffie said:

We do, it's hard to realise that. But yes, it can be different with committed effort.

The shame from obsessional fears was really the same shame I'd always felt, just amplified. I remember feeling shame before I had any OCD fears. It was as if that shame was suppressed so much that it blew up eventually into OCD-type behaviours and fears.

It is normal to feel shame. You will always feel shame atleast if you aren't a psychopath. Do you mean that the feeling "shame" feelt the same as before you had OCD or do you mean that something which you feelt shame about made you start having OCD? 

When it comes to what started OCD am I clueless but I don't think that trauma starts OCD, I make that assumption on the fact that it seems to be that OCD is as common in people who had traumas as in people without traumas. 

 

You think it is pretty healthy to trying to find out who you are. That is my life goal. I also think that shame/fear/anxiety and distress are normal reactions. And I know that in my case trying to find reasons to every feeling I had probably made me too eager on psychiatry. I think that I might have been afraid of the uncertainty of life, which woke a intrest in me of trying to classify the feelings and find the reason behind them. Maybe we all need a little bit of acceptance? Could it be that people with OCD who seems to be too harsh on themselves worry all those questions as well?

 

[Saffie]

4 minutes ago, Dawnie said:

My last therapist was good. While I was “progressing” with the CBT I started to get more emotional responces to stressful things which would normally made me have intrusions. So as I habitualised the intrusions I would instead get normal emotions/thoughts. I found these worrying as hadn’t had them for so long. Sometimes I would worry why I’ve become angry/annoyed etc. My therapist talked me through them and that they are normal responses to day to day stresses. He was great and I learnt a lot. 

I agree 100% with you that it’s a defence mechanisms and I don’t think it’s untill your well on the road to recovery that you can see OCD for what it really is.  

Thanks xx

 

This is very true..once the compulsions etc have been dealt with to a degree, there's a whole layer of emotional regulation to deal with. Makes a lot of sense. I do feel as though I'm starting to emotionally regulate for the first time properly, it's like going through a second puberty lol.

You're welcome, thank you for sharing your thoughts! x

[gingerbreadgirl]

1 minute ago, OCDhavenobrain said:

It is normal to feel shame. You will always feel shame atleast if you aren't a psychopath. Do you mean that the feeling "shame" feelt the same as before you had OCD or do you mean that something which you feelt shame about made you start having OCD? 

When it comes to what started OCD am I clueless but I don't think that trauma starts OCD, I make that assumption on the fact that it seems to be that OCD is as common in people who had traumas as in people without traumas. 

 

You think it is pretty healthy to trying to find out who you are. That is my life goal. I also think that shame/fear/anxiety and distress are normal reactions. And I know that in my case trying to find reasons to every feeling I had probably made me too eager on psychiatry. I think that I might have been afraid of the uncertainty of life, which woke a intrest in me of trying to classify the feelings and find the reason behind them. Maybe we all need a little bit of acceptance? Could it be that people with OCD who seems to be too harsh on themselves worry all those questions as well?

 

I think you're right in that it is easy to topple from exploring yourself (healthy) to ruminating (unhealthy) and I am very guilty of this.  I think it's important to look deeply but sometimes things should be left ambiguous and uncertain, too. It can be tricky to know where to draw this line especially as an ocd sufferer. Sometimes we want to find that perfect answer, that perfect therapy - when the truth is there will always be imperfections and grey areas and flaws and ambiguities, such is life. 

Great thread. 

[Dawnie]

Haha

Saffie you are funny. 

I’ve only just started the learning to deal with emotion rigmarole. Struggled for so long. But in the last month and since coming into this forum, which has been a great help, I am pacing myself through the emotions. Really tiring. Talk about needing to rise to the challenge. I practice mindfulness which is magical. It somehow makes things clearer and more colourful and not just grey. I am a better person for it. I get complacent and then don’t practise mindfulness and end up in a pile of it....again. 

Enjoying your posts Saffie.

Also I like gbg post regarding tolerating uncertanty, although very hard, is a good thing for us. I need to practise this more also. I think we all do. Thanks both gbg and Saffie xx

Edited December 3, 2018 by Dawnie

[Guest]

I wrote this on a thread last week, which my clumsy way of describing exactly what you have written..." I have this pervasive sense/feeling of dread and self hatred pretty much all the time when I'm not obsessing or performing compulsions and I think it is the root cause of my ocd. I think my ocd behaviours are a way of rationalising and containing these feelings so I can at least get some release and sense out of them. For example, if I can pin the feelings on it being my fault for not being clean enough, I can then understand and relieve the feeling by cleaning, the feelings are also contained to that one subject area so the feelings are then not constant and pervasive about everything I do, think and feel. Until I deal with this I think I will always be fire fighting new and different obsessions."

I have to admit that I stopped using this forum much a while ago because I strongly feel that CBT alone is insufficient treatment for some people with ocd, but that is not a very popular viewpoint so I get scared of voicing it. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by Guest

[Guest OCDhavenobrain]

What do you all think of the idea that we with OCD tends to be too hard on ourselves? Could this result in the fact that we can't even accept ourselves? Could this lead to something? 

Edited December 3, 2018 by OCDhavenobrain

[Saffie]

2 minutes ago, OCDhavenobrain said:

You think it is pretty healthy to trying to find out who you are. That is my life goal. I also think that shame/fear/anxiety and distress are normal reactions. And I know that in my case trying to find reasons to every feeling I had probably made me too eager on psychiatry. I think that I might have been afraid of the uncertainty of life, which woke a intrest in me of trying to classify the feelings and find the reason behind them. Maybe we all need a little bit of acceptance? Could it be that people with OCD who seems to be too harsh on themselves worry all those questions as well?

Yeah we do have a tendency to be way too harsh on ourselves. I think if I spoke to others the way I spoke to myself I'd be in deep trouble lol. I do agree that a certain amount of shame is part of the human condition. But I do think that for some it runs deeper - for instance, most people I've been friends with don't have that inherent feeling of being a bad person. They may have occasional doubts and feel not so great about themselves, but they don't have an almost physical feeling of being ashamed around others. Many people do though, I suppose. When I told my best friend once that I had often hated myself, she was horrified. She said 'How could you hate yourself?? That's awful.' I was almost embarrassed to admit that I had hated myself so much lol.

OCD, in itself, could be described as a control mechanism - a desperate attempt at someone trying to achieve certainty, stability, safety. So I think it might be quite likely that many sufferers developed these coping mechanisms in response to the opposite of what they are trying to achieve: situations where they felt powerless or out of control. Whether this is one instance or several (including upbringing), I suppose it doesn't matter much. But this thought came to me after a past life regression session a few years ago, I went back and was five years old, and just had this feeling of being really unsafe. No major events, no specific circumstances, just that feeling of not being safe. It's this feeling that I've been gradually coming to look at, as it is the fuel to the fire. Although, you're totally right in the sense that we need to accept and can't 'get to the bottom' of everything, because there probably is no bottom.

[Saffie]

9 minutes ago, Dawnie said:

Haha

Saffie you are funny. 

I’ve only just started the learning to deal with emotion rigmarole. Struggled for so long. But in the last month and since coming into this forum, which has been a great help, I am pacing myself through the emotions. Really tiring. Talk about needing to rise to the challenge. I practice mindfulness which is magical. It somehow makes things clearer and more colourful and not just grey. I am a better person for it. I get complacent and then don’t practise mindfulness and end up in a pile of it....again. 

Enjoying your posts Saffie.

Also I like gbg post regarding tolerating uncertanty, although very hard, is a good thing for us. I need to practise this more also. I think we all do. Thanks both gbg and Saffie xx

You're most welcome! And I'm glad it's started a cool conversation too. Mindfulness is awesome, I think it should be mandatory in schools lol. Interesting to start all this emotional stuff now, wouldn't it be great to have that as a foundation first of all! This is why I believe healing from anything like this is a holistic approach, not just one therapy or practice.

 

8 minutes ago, Wren said:

I have to admit that I stopped using this forum much a while ago because I strongly feel that CBT alone is insufficient treatment for some people with ocd, but that is not a very popular viewpoint so I get scared of voicing it. 

You described that really well! And it's good that people can voice their thoughts even if they are challenging to some. If we don't discuss these things then healthcare would never evolve (not that it has much in the uk but that's another story lol). Because CBT was pretty much the only 'known' treatment for OCD for the past god knows how long, it's normal that people would want to rely on that. I don't have the answers as to how these treatments can be better adjusted or augmented to help people, but I definitely think it's good to explore these things. Thank you for posting, I can certainly relate to your feelings.

 

10 minutes ago, OCDhavenobrain said:

What do you all think of the idea that we with OCD tends to be too hard on ourselves? Could this result in the fact that we can't even accept ourselves? Is it possible to accept that you one day are feeling ok?

Yep, we definitely tend to be very critical or ourselves (and sometimes others!), Accepting ourselves is something I think that's universal to a large degree, many people don't accept themselves. But those with OCD seem to have a much harder time doing so. However, I've had experiences of deep self love, peace and acceptance at times...almost as if I popped out of that OCD role for a minute, so I know it's not really who I am. Although day to day it's very easy to become convinced that it is, over time we mould into this identity as 'OCD sufferer' and live it out because it's all we think we know. So yes, it's possible. But when you're working with these tendencies it's going to take continued, conscious effort.

[Guest OCDhavenobrain]

14 minutes ago, Saffie said:

Yeah we do have a tendency to be way too harsh on ourselves. I think if I spoke to others the way I spoke to myself I'd be in deep trouble lol. I do agree that a certain amount of shame is part of the human condition. But I do think that for some it runs deeper - for instance, most people I've been friends with don't have that inherent feeling of being a bad person. They may have occasional doubts and feel not so great about themselves, but they don't have an almost physical feeling of being ashamed around others. Many people do though, I suppose. When I told my best friend once that I had often hated myself, she was horrified. She said 'How could you hate yourself?? That's awful.' I was almost embarrassed to admit that I had hated myself so much lol.

OCD, in itself, could be described as a control mechanism - a desperate attempt at someone trying to achieve certainty, stability, safety. So I think it might be quite likely that many sufferers developed these coping mechanisms in response to the opposite of what they are trying to achieve: situations where they felt powerless or out of control. Whether this is one instance or several (including upbringing), I suppose it doesn't matter much. But this thought came to me after a past life regression session a few years ago, I went back and was five years old, and just had this feeling of being really unsafe. No major events, no specific circumstances, just that feeling of not being safe. It's this feeling that I've been gradually coming to look at, as it is the fuel to the fire. Although, you're totally right in the sense that we need to accept and can't 'get to the bottom' of everything, because there probably is no bottom.

First would I like to point out that I really like what you wrote above when you wrote about starting to be what you feared before. This change in someone chan manifest itself in many forms when it comes to OCD. A person who fear being dirty can end up feeling the most intense disgust when he/she finds himself/herself being contaminated. This situation will mostly be because of exaggerated feelings (which are not true) but another situation could be that a person could end up stuck at home, and I would bet that not many people dream about being in such a state. Maybe the person feared that he/she would be contaminated and end up sick and not being able to go to work, and he/she instead ends up not being able to go to work for a long time because the OCD slowly stops us from doing things we previously saw as harmless (because they were harmless).  

Another example is just the one you wrote. Having anxiety is to be pretty selfish, with that I mean that you are getting stuck inside your head and we should all face it, because it can motivate us, do we really need to be stuck inside our heads, battling some made up danger which nobody else is seeing. Life goes on outside our heads, real problems are taking place in our lives, it can becomming a bad spiral. You need to be extraordinary in some way, to being able to have OCD and just go along fine. Maybe a person is very rich or incredible gifted, it's possible, however OCD will always take time away from something else - something you rather would be doing. The normal situation seems to be that the person with OCD gets more and more constricted and end up being stuck at home. 

Some people don't feel shame. It is natural, it's natural that not everybody are the same. Do not draw conclusions from the fact that you are feeling shame. Please don't! 

Also, there are people with OCD who doesn't feel shame, I have feelt shame in connection with OCD but it is much more common that I don't. I also don't hate myself. And I don't think that you should. Would go so far and say that you could stop hating yourself today and start trying to like yourself instead - because there are probably nothing which make you having to hate yourself (but I guess you can come up with many many reasons for why you should, but please don't  ). And a therapist which focus on psychodynamics would be able and very eager to trying to find out what is "wrong with you". That I am certain of, you will be able to find such a therapist, and you could even feel good about yourself when you are going there. That is what I have been reading is going on with that kind of therapy - you go there and talk and you are getting a good feeling because you are talking about yourself and he/she doesn't blame you or making you feel bad about yourself. You are feeling that you are being accepted even if you are this """monster""". But it doesn't last and the studies seems to show that people in that kind of therapy are as unhappy after as before. You could as well talk to a good friend, well you couldn't, because your mind knows that your friend are your friend and a therapist is a therapist.. On the other hand, therapy will it cost you more than talking to a friend.

I would really advice you not to go to more past life regression therapy-sessions. I would also not recommend you to go speak with a psychodynamic-therapist. 

  You can't know what happened to you in your childhood, atleast not, with certainty. And it is even trickier getting to know what happened to you in "past lives" if there are such lives. 

 

"""""

 get you. I don't necessarily believe there was one particular 'trauma' that caused my OCD, I believe it's a combination of factors. But there is often an underlying driving factor that makes 'normal' levels of mental imbalance tip over into things like diagnosable OCD. So I think if we can identify those things, we might be in a much better position to heal and have a fuller recovery. I've always been inclined, similarly, to go deeply into things, so maybe this is why I feel this is important to me. I do have a memory where abuse might have occurred in childhood, but that's another story. I don't think I'll get the answer to that and I don't intend to go looking for an answer. But I always related strongly to abuse victims and have an unnaturally awkward attitude towards sex, along with other symptoms which did make me question whether something happened to disturb my sense of safety at a young age. That would certainly account for OCD behaviours. But again, I don't know. Sensitive/empathic people can pick up on others' feelings so maybe I'm just able to relate to those people for whatever reason.

Myself without OCD...well, I don't believe OCD is a definable part of me, it's an experience and a painful one, but it's not who I am. Going deeper into the nature of my self comes from spiritual practice, I understand not everyone is interested in this. But I think I'm what's underneath all those layers of conditioning, programming, ocd, depression, whatever. And while I'm not interested in discovering that exactly right now (I'm focusing on getting my mind more balanced first), ultimately, embodying the truth of who I am is important to me.

""""

 

I don't think so. Not at all actually. What if it turns out that OCD is totally random? In a sense that who gets OCD are just unlucky and are getting a bad circuit in their brain in the same sense as a blind person got wired up differently? Then you will have been running around trying to find reasons where there are none. I guess all of this could come down to if someone believed in us being our brains or us being something more, religious beliefs and such which come into play. I am not religious but I am ready and would be very keen to go one step further and see if there are something more. As it seems now, I will wait with that adenture til the day I am somewhat free from OCD. But I have engaged in it before. I think that is possible to find this state without believing in a god. Ultimately I myself think that we with OCD identifies with our thoughts to a extent which nobody else does (atleast not anyone without the disorder ), but I do think that it is human nature to identify with our thoughts. 

I have  choosen not to advocate something else than CBT/ERP when it comes to OCD, because I want to be practical and not go out on a limb. Beating OCD is hard enough, and I also want to be scientific when it comes to all of this. Main drive is that I don't think it is helpful to start talking about all of this when someone is troubled by their OCD, it need to be as clearcut as possible, and the sufferer also need to be able to accept what is said, at that point it isn't the time to throw (what could be) life-changing ideas at someone. 

• "From learning more about myself I understand more now why many therapists call CBT  a 'top down' therapy. As in, it works on a surface level, but it doesn't really change much on a deeper subconscious level long term. For instance, mental imbalance of any kind is felt on a cellular level, so we need to work to process this through our entire nervous system (such as with body work/therapy etc), not just wait for it to filter down through conscious reconditioning. What do you think?"

The beauty in all of this is that when you are doing differently you are creating new paths in the brain. You do work with yourself when you go against your fears. Actually you are doing so in a very big way because it is not a small task of the brain to stop using pathways which are seemed to be able to save your own life. It may seem trivial and not being enough but what if all of this just is a misfiring ( a very feeling such but still just a misfiring)? There are probably few things which makes such an impact on the brain. And the fact that you are doing differently is the reason it works so good. In psychodynamics are you pretty much doing what you always have been doing, you talk about it and you bring it into memory (it can actually create false memories so it is not totally harmless). 

Do all of this really need to mean something? What if we were fooled all along?

[PolarBear]

We have talked about this quite a bit on the forum. We talk about it in terms of core beliefs, those deep down beliefs that we feel defines who we are or describe our relationship with the world or even the world itself.

Does OCD have its origins in a single or series of statements or events? We've debated that endlessly. Some people can pinpoint the moment the seed was planted and shortly thereafter, OCD began its work. Others have no idea. But in many cases, there does seem to be an underlying belief present.

I am worthless.

I am an awful human being.

I am a danger to be around.

The world is a very dangerous place.

I always wreck everything.

I cannot be trusted.

And on and on. I wholeheartedly believe that people should delve into themselves to discover core beliefs lurking just beneath the surface. And yes, those can be dealt with through traditional talk therapy. On top of that, we need to learn proper CBT techniques to overcome the actual disorder. It is important to note that, even if your OCD did come about because of a negative core belief, once the disorder is unleashed, it is like a wild animal, running off on the steam generated by you and your behaviors and thinking. Core belief or no, once the OCD genie is out of the bottle, you aren't going to put it back in simply by dealing with the original core belief.

[dksea]

In an ideal, scientific setting, the goal is to reduce variables as much as possible to focus ones study on ONLY the specific question at hand.  This is one of the reasons specific types of animals (be it bacteria or mice or monkeys) are used in a lot of studies, because using the same animals with the same, well known set of traits, allows you to be more confident that the factor you introduce, be it a medication or a behavior change or an environmental change, is truly responsible.  If you take 100 identical mice and separate them in to two groups, give one group a drug, and the other group you don't, chances are high that the difference you see is based on that drug.  Even in human trials we do this as much as we can.  Unfortunately its not always possible to isolate the thing being studied and that seems particularly true for mental health conditions.  In an ideal world (well in an IDEAL world we wouldn't have OCD but setting that aside) we would be dealing with only one problem at a time.  A person with OCD as their problem would ONLY have OCD as their problem, etc.  Unfortunately we don't live in such a world.

While there is a lot we don't know about mental health and how the brain works, there are things we do know, and one of them is that the brains of people with OCD behave measurably differently than the brains of people without OCD.  Enough study and research has been done to demonstrate that pretty much conclusively at this point (including a recent meta-study aka study of other studies).  But what we still don't know is why some people experience OCD and others don't.  Or why some people experience it at a very young age while others don't start suffering until later.  And overall we aren't sure why each person gets different anxieties and different compulsions.  Why one person gets so much anxiety from germs and must wash extensively while the next person can be a complete slob but must touch a door handle 5 times exactly to ward of anxiety about their relatives dying.  One model, and its the one I believe has the most support and seems the most likely is that OCD is a vulnerability and the triggers that we experience are simply the wrong thought at the wrong time.

I like to think of it like this, image a security door.  Everyone has to scan their badge to get in.  Every day people line up at this door, scan their badge and only the right people are let in.  But there is a problem with the door.  1 in every 10,000 scans it registers as positive, no matter whether the security badge was ok or not.  Does that mean 1 in every 10,000 people who get in is bad?  Not necessarily, the scan could fail but the person trying to get in could be a legitimate ok person.  But there is a chance that the scanner will fail at the wrong time and let in someone who doesn't deserve to be there.  But we don't know what kind of bad person it will be, so the exact details of what they will do might differ. One bad person might throw everyones garbage on the floor.  Another bad person might graffiti the walls.  A third bad person might just yell at everyone.  But the underlying problem is the bad person got in, and how do we try and prevent that from happening again and deal with the one who got in.  OCD is just like that, a security failure that sometimes lets unwanted thoughts get past the gateway and in to our conscious mind.  

For each person the particular thought is different because our lives are different.  The bad actors in each of our lines are different.  Now it makes sense that if a person has an underlying worry about health not related to OCD that they are going to have more unwanted thoughts about health anxiety.  So the bad actors or intrusive thoughts you deal with are more likely to be related to that.  But here's the thing, if you try and fix the underlying problem (say health anxiety)  but you don't do anything about the broken security door, you might be less likely to have health related worries, but it'll probably just be replaced by other worries instead because the door is still broken, your mind is still likely to respond in an OCD related fashion to an unwanted thought

CBT therapists and people helping you deal with OCD focus on that part of the problem because its the most immediate threat.  Talking about the other stuff may help your mental well being in the long run, but it won't really help your OCD because that will be there regardless of your other issues.  It is probably good for your overall mental health and long term well being to address any other co-morbid issues, but we know from lots of evidence that the way to gain control back over OCD is CBT.  So priority 1 is to focus on getting the OCD under control, priority 2 would be addressing any other issues, some of which may be flavoring your OCD, but aren't directly responsible for it.