Becoming obsessed with thoughts - things getting worse (Merged Thread)

[Guest Phil10]

I can only express my regret people feel this way becuase I have had CBT and it’s failed. I spent £300 on it and had no progress I can’t keep going to CBT theripsts over and over. Often I have read CBT doesn’t work for everybody and they find another solution whether it be meds or books or exercise or something else. It’s difficult as CBT May have worked for many on here but when I came on this forum I never had CBT for years and I went and tried it invested lots of money, I failed to get any via the NHS.

And yes I believe someone else mentioned the anxiety cure here.

I have to try what works for me CBT was more like councilling for me as it was more talking how I feel the CBT never worked. I also mentioned I can’t take meds for ocd.

I also mentioned before I have to talk or I could risk having a breakdown if I bottle stuff up so yes if i can’t post here I shall post elsewhere.

[Guest OCDhavenobrain]

That is fine Phil. And you probably should because CBT is the method we are trying to use here. Maybe there are forums with other approaches I dokt know

[dksea]

30 minutes ago, Phil10 said:

I have had CBT and it’s failed. I spent £300 on it and had no progress

How long did you do the CBT?  While you were doing it did you do the work or did you simply show up for the counseling sessions?  Did you do ERP at all?  I'm sorry Phil, but honestly, based on what you have said on this forum about what you will do and won't do, I don't think the issue is CBT not working, I think the issue is that you aren't willing to do the work that CBT requires.  When someone is as in deep with OCD as you seem to be its going to take more than a couple of sessions to undo all the bad habits/compulsions you have and make the change in your life.  I'm not sure what you expected out of CBT, but it seems to me you were hoping for a quick fix and gave up because it doesn't offer that. Yet here you are, continuing to suffer, despite having found the "cure" for anxiety.  I really think you should answer the questions raised.  Why isn't this cure working?  Why do you not only continue to suffer, but continue to get worse?  I hope someday you will realize that the "cure" is nothing but snake oil and you (and others) are being taken advantage of
 

34 minutes ago, Phil10 said:

I also mentioned before I have to talk or I could risk having a breakdown if I bottle stuff up so yes if i can’t post here I shall post elsewhere.

There is a difference between talking and getting help, and simply writing out your latest obsessive worries.  Doing the later is a compulsion, and not doing it isn't "bottling" things up.  I'm not sure who told you that this behavior, this constant anxiety diary writing is necessary or helpful, but I can honestly say I don't think they are helping you.

[felix4]

1 hour ago, Phil10 said:

I have had CBT and it’s failed. I spent £300 on it and had no progress I can’t keep going to CBT theripsts over and over.

If my memory serves me correctly, I think you only did 7 sessions of CBT. I seem to recollect telling you it a shame, because sessions 8-12 is where the magic happens!

The thing is, the last sessions are just as, if not more important than the first few, & the idea is you become your own therapist Phil, & keep going at it until better.

 

 

[Guest Phil10]

4 hours ago, felix4 said:

If my memory serves me correctly, I think you only did 7 sessions of CBT. I seem to recollect telling you it a shame, because sessions 8-12 is where the magic happens!

The thing is, the last sessions are just as, if not more important than the first few, & the idea is you become your own therapist Phil, & keep going at it until better.

 

 

I did 8 session in total but she said at the start it would take around 8. She never wanted to see me again as she felt I had inproved. I can’t afford to restart another 8-12 session with someone else that would require around £500 to complete 13 sessions. I spent £300 already. 

But yes I worried I contaminated the whole house that I ran round with a toilet brush that’s what my ocd says. Now the ocd tells me the towel rail will contaminate the house. I mean I did touch the rail today and try to use it but worry now everything is dirty so I can’t win?

[PolarBear]

Phil, I have an excellent idea. Since you won't take our advice but you think you've found the cure, why don't you stop posting your diary here and start emailing that fantastic company you sent your money to? Clearly they know more than we do, so why don't you send them diary entries 3 or 4 times a day and see how that works out?

[Guest Phil10]

52 minutes ago, PolarBear said:

Phil, I have an excellent idea. Since you won't take our advice but you think you've found the cure, why don't you stop posting your diary here and start emailing that fantastic company you sent your money to? Clearly they know more than we do, so why don't you send them diary entries 3 or 4 times a day and see how that works out?

It’s not a diary but instead asking for advice on my worries. A diary wouldn’t require a response from me.

[Orwell1984]

2 hours ago, Phil10 said:

It’s not a diary but instead asking for advice on my worries. A diary wouldn’t require a response from me.

Phil, whatever you call it, it’s still the opposite of helpful. There is no more advice to be given. Save money for future therapy. This problem is going to get worse. OCD can’t magically disappear. With the behaviours you continue to choose to do, your ocd is just going to snowball. 

[Guest Phil10]

Another issue I have is stuff I moved house with and not used in a while I won’t touch stuff in my loft and my tool box. I refuse to use it in fear of dirty laundry germs from my last house so I may have to replace these tools. So yes that’s my issue basically stuff I have not used in worry is dirty it all relates to this house move a year ago despite it being all that time the worries still come. 

[Guest Phil10]

Just now, Orwell1984 said:

Phil, whatever you call it, it’s still the opposite of helpful. There is no more advice to be given. Save money for future therapy. This problem is going to get worse. OCD can’t magically disappear. With the behaviours you continue to choose to do, your ocd is just going to snowball. 

It can’t be much worse can it I moved house due to it? Perhaps people just get bored reading my posts as I find it helpful. Like I say I would post elsewhere because it’s something I find helps me. 

[Orwell1984]

This is a pointless non constructive circular conversation. Can’t really be continuing it. Hope you decide to help yourself. 

[Hal]

13 hours ago, Phil10 said:

It can’t be much worse can it I moved house due to it? Perhaps people just get bored reading my posts as I find it helpful. Like I say I would post elsewhere because it’s something I find helps me. 

It’s only a decision you can make whether or not to find another forum Phil, but I hope you don’t. Sure, there are others out there that are happy for sufferers to reassure each other and remain stuck, but this isn’t one of those forums. We’ve always been about constructively helping people to beat the disorder and to that end the advice you’ve been given from our members has quite frankly been remarkable. At a certain point though only you can actually put it into practice. We all know how scary it is taking that step, but as others have also said, unless you do, I’m sorry to say your quality of life will almost certainly get worse. 

As I say I hope you do stick around but after this amount of time it doesn’t seem unfair to ask you to pause and really be honest with yourself now about what your motivation is for posting the specifics of your fears. It’s fine in the early stages of using the forum but you really do need to try and work at cutting back on and ultimately stopping it.

We want to help and engage with you, not the disorder...how do you feel about it, is it something you could work on despite your reservations it is a compulsion?

[dksea]

5 hours ago, Phil10 said:

It’s not a diary but instead asking for advice on my worries.

Ok, if you want advice I'll give you advice

2 hours ago, Phil10 said:

Another issue I have is stuff I moved house with and not used in a while I won’t touch stuff in my loft and my tool box. I refuse to use it in fear of dirty laundry germs from my last house so I may have to replace these tools. So yes that’s my issue basically stuff I have not used in worry is dirty it all relates to this house move a year ago despite it being all that time the worries still come. 

The "contamination" isn't real.  It's all a lie you've accepted.  You want to beat it?  Then use those tools.  Use every last one of them.  Use them all over your house.  Spread those "germs" anywhere and everywhere.  Cause guess what?  Your new house is just as "contaminated" as your old one, it always has been.  You touched those tools once upon a time and you touched all the things in your old house and now you've touched pretty much everything in your new house.  If these "germs" were spread through causal contact its already way too late, your entire new house is contaminated.  So is your old house. So is everywhere you've ever been, and everywhere someone who has been to those places has ever been.  Your "contamination" belief is completely illogical.  If it works the way you say it does then everything is already "contaminated" anyway, its too late, there is no where for you to go.  The good news is there was never "contamination" to begin with.  So you can force yourself to push through the anxiety and get back control of your life by ignoring the fears of "contamination" and learning that the anxiety is a false alarm and you'll be fine OR you can continue as you are and keep suffering.

So there you go, thats the advice, are you going to accept it and start to improve your situation, or are you going to continue to do the same thing over and over and over that isn't working?  I'm sorry to come across so bluntly but trying to be more circumspect and accommodating hasn't worked so far, maybe this is what you need to move forward.

Edited April 4, 2019 by dksea

[gingerbreadgirl]

Phil I have been off the forum for a while and I come back and I see you are stuck in the same loop. You post about all the compulsions you've done that day, completely ignore everyone's advice, and then claim CBT is rubbish. 

Well of course it's going to be rubbish because you're not actually DOING it. At all. 

I think you should stop posting out of respect for the forum because honestly you are wasting everyone's time. A lot of people have spent a lot of time trying to help you and you just repeatedly ignore it.  

[taurean]

Phil, 288 posts into this thread. 

And you still haven't taken on board what you can see by just taking a look at the OCD-UK logo. 

When Ashley redesigned it he wanted it in itself to send a clear message. So he consulted with the charity's members on how best to do that. 

And the result is what you see.

The O and the C are touching. Because the obsessional thinking causes the urge to carry out the compulsions. 

The D, disorder, is shown slightly apart, and is coloured in black, as it is the consequence of all that obsessing and carrying out compulsions. 

Can you see now that treating the Disorder only - that anxiety that is a consequence of the O plus the C - is not going to work?  because it is the very same O plus C which causes the D - the anxiety response. 

I told you earlier I was "out", wouldn't contribute any more because you weren't listening. 

But I saw that my friend Gingerbreadgirl had responded, and I know she talks a lot of sense. 

So here I am adding a final sixpenny worth. 

There is nothing wrong at all with using separate ways to aid reducing the distress of the anxiety response. I could write a book on those myself - and using mindfulness is a big plus for me. 

But we don't recover from OCD without tackling the cause of it - the obsessions and compulsions. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by taurean

[Guest Phil10]

I am trying to ignore these ocd thoughts but mind has been on the towel rail all day. Logically I know there is no contamination but my ocd says otherwise. I used the towel rail the other day but only for a moment. All I done was come out the shower get dried but becuase I did the act of wiping my backside my ocd ruminated in this issue she told me the towel rail or floor or anywhere I put that towel would be contaminated. 

I am fascinated by the way people say there is no contamination so where does it come from? What makes an ocd suffer believe something is contaminated when infact it’s not? At what point is something contaminated I mean let me use a few examples perhaps a dirty river or when the water main bursts and the water is brown this is surely contamination surely people here won’t say no that water is totally fine? So contamination may be a lie but when something happens it is possible the surface can become more dirty than it was previously. Stuff in a charity shop will have been worn and used lots when I moved into my house it was like new but after I have stayed here a year it’s almost as if it’s all worn. I mean yes my house isn’t new but with ocd it starts a new cycle in your head. Stuff I can’t see before I moved in wouldn’t trouble me. 

So yes let me use an example the shoes i threw away because the dirty laundry fell on it before they were cleaner than after the laundry fell on them that’s a fact. What’s different? Perhaps someone without ocd could put dirty Landry, stand o dog poo or sick and still not worry the shoes are dirty. Perhaps they are the sort of person who doesn’t worry about germs 

I hope people don’t get annoyed at me for asking questions. But the word contamination is often used with ocd but on here people say well there is no contamination then what possesses us think of it in this way? Surely it’s a behavior learnt from your past?

[dksea]

2 hours ago, Phil10 said:

What makes an ocd suffer believe something is contaminated when infact it’s not?

OCD is, at its core, a disease of doubt.  A non-OCD person has a thought just like an OCD person does, "what if this towel is contaminated". Then it proceeds like this:
Non-OCD-person:  "Hmm, maybe this towel is contaminated.  But people use towels all the time without replacing them/washing them every time and are perfectly fine.  Yeah the towel is probably ok, no big deal."  Non-OCD-persons brain: OK, sounds good I'll mark this thought as Resolved.

OCD-person: "Hmm, maybe this towel is contaminated.  But people use towels all the time without replacing them/washing them every time and are perfectly fine.  Yeah the towel is probably ok, no big deal."  OCD-persons brain: Hmm, I'm not so sure though....
OCD-person: "But what if this time the towel didn't dry out properly so the bacteria from before have been spreading.  That seems kinda unlikely though right?" OCD-persons brain: Hmm, I'm not so sure though....
OCD-person: "I guess it could be dirty still, maybe I should just use a new towel..."

And it goes on from there.  Basically in people with OCD the part of the brain that is responsible for telling us a thought has been resolved and its ok to move on is partly broken.  Instead of getting the "all-clear" signal like we expect, we, well don't.  So we are stuck with this unresolved thought, and it starts to cause anxiety, because we don't get the feeling we are expecting of things being "OK".  Its basically a false alarm, but before training like CBT we aren't properly trained to handle these false alarms, so our brains act as if its a real threat and we continue to feel anxiety.  

Perhaps an analogy would help.  In most people, when we eat various processes are triggered that tell us when we are "full", at which point you stop eating (or you keep eating and feel sick afterwards, but you know you are doing it).  But for some people (particularly those with a condition called Prader-Willi syndrome, one or more of these triggers don't work right and so they have trouble feeling that "full" feeling.  They keep feeling hungry all the time.  Now, it doesn't mean they actually NEED to eat.  They could eat a complete meal, a meal that would cause any other person to feel satiated.  But they don't.  They continue to feel hungry.  For them treatment involves learning how to manage their eating habits absent the normal human trigger of feeling full.  

Now fortunately, for OCD sufferers, our brains are quite flexible and you can, with therapy and sometimes medication, retrain your brain to function more like a non-OCD persons brain.  You can learn to better recognize these false alarm signals and react to them in a more appropriate fashion.  Like learning basically any knew skill, at first you have to pay more attention to your actions, but over time they become habitual and you stop having to actively try to do things the "right" way.  A key part of CBT is learning to understand this and change your mental model and approach to dealing with intrusive thoughts.  The "normal" way doesn't work in those situations because your brain has gotten stuck when it comes to that particular thought, so you have to teach it to do the right thing.  Almost like a stroke victim learning how to talk again.

[dksea]

2 hours ago, Phil10 said:

So contamination may be a lie but when something happens it is possible the surface can become more dirty than it was previously. Stuff in a charity shop will have been worn and used lots when I moved into my house it was like new but after I have stayed here a year it’s almost as if it’s all worn.

Yes, dirt is real, germs are real, and things sometimes need to be cleaned or even replaced.  But the reason we say your contamination is a lie is because you (and others who suffer from contamination fears) are applying rules to these types of things that are waaaaaaaaay out of line with reality in two key ways.  First, the risk and danger associated with contamination is massively exaggerated. Second, the way you believe this contamination spreads, from even the slightest contact, is also completely unrealistic. As a result of these two cognitive distortions that you have come to accept your life, and indeed the life of people around you, is being significantly disrupted.

So there is the REAL contamination that exists in the world, to which one can respond in a reasonable fashion (washing dirty clothes, washing your hands, not rolling around in dog poop, etc.) and there is the FAKE contamination that you are responding to in an unreasonable fashion (replacing perfectly good things because of incidental contact with "contaminated items", moving houses to avoid "contamination", refusing to interact with things that are quite safe and can be handled easily , such as bins, your tools, etc.).  OCD is demanding of you, like it does all sufferers, to meet an impossible standard, to remove ALL doubt, ALL risk, ALL uncertainty, about a particular anxiety.  You have, as many people who struggle with OCD do, bought in to the idea that feeling doubt is unacceptable, which leads to statements like this:

3 hours ago, Phil10 said:

Logically I know there is no contamination but my ocd says otherwise.

This is a very typical thing for an OCD sufferer to say/feel.  I know that I experience this many times and it drove me nuts!  I KNEW in my head that my anxieties were stupid, that they weren't worth worrying about, but I still felt the worry!  I hated that feeling and I wanted to make it go away more than anything so I could get back to living my life. I believed that I *HAD* to solve that worry, I *HAD* to make it go away before I could move on.  And that was the biggest lie of all, and recognizing it was one of the best things that has ever happened to me.  You DON'T have to respond to the worry, you DON'T have to solve it.  It sucks, sure, but it turns out you can not respond to the anxiety and it will fade, you can get on with what you are doing even though you feel anxious.  
Beating OCD is relatively straightforward, though not particularly easy.  If you want to beat OCD, you have to learn to ignore OCD.  And even better if you can DEFY OCD.  OCD tells you its not ok to touch a bin?  Touch the bin!  Touch it a bunch!  Touch it as much as possible.  Yes, at first you'll feel anxiety, but when nothing happens, when you are completely fine, your brain will start to recognize that bins aren't worth worrying about, and the thought that your bin is contaminated isn't worth noticing.  This process is called habituation, its what underlies ERP, and its a proven scientific phenomenon.   Straightforward, but not easy. Some people are able to ease the anxiety you will feel, particularly initially, from not doing compulsions and/or actively engaging negative thoughts through ERP, using medication.  You have mentioned thats not an option for you, but fortunately there are other ways to deal with anxiety and using CBT without medication is still a highly effective treatment for OCD.  It works best when you apply it in an orderly fashion, working towards clear goals and doing the work along the way, but self guided CBT can also be effective.  Ultimately its up to you what to do about your OCD, but it seems to me whatever you have been doing has not worked at all (Heck, just look at the title of this thread: "Becoming obsessed with thoughts - things getting worse".   Things getting worse.  That doesn't sound particularly promising.

[taurean]

Hi Phil 

I am still hovering, hoping you are going to pick up on the excellent advice you are getting. And this is brilliant stuff from Dksea

We all have to understand this - the cognitive side - of why in OCD we think and feel the way we do; why the illness distorts and exaggerates, then trumps up connections so that the obsessions and resultant compulsions overwhelm us. 

Hopefully you can now see, from what we have both said, that treating the consequential anxiety without tackling the causational obsessions and compulsions still leaves you stuck in an ongoing cycle of obsessions + compulsions = disorder? 

Dksea has given you the basics of the C (cognitive) side. Now please try to make changes in your thinking and behaviours when those contamination intrusions pop into your head. 

It's all about not believing, not connecting with them. Not posting detail of what battle is going on in your mind and why you are still believing what your (OCD'd) brain is telling you. 

I, and of course Dksea, so want you to try hard to do this. 

So really give it a go. Recognise the trigger, but refuse to respond as you have been doing. 

This will be hard, really really hard, at first - but believe me if you do this successfully it will start to get a whole lot better. 

You owe it to yourself, but also very much to your fiancée to work at this. And thanks to the wonderful volunteers fundraisers and subscribing members of OCD-UK this wonderful advice is free. 

So really really please give this a go. 

[Guest Phil10]

So you have told me it’s not dirty or contaminated how can I believe this in a way I stop ruminating? I mean I touch a surface I think is dirty and I have all the ocd thoughts. How can I stop this? Or not bother about it? Like I say I never replaced the iron but there is some stuff that I avoid touching and I find it hard to do so without washing my hands. What’s the best way to tackle these thoughts can I ever believe something once contaminated is clean again?

[PolarBear]

Since you have stated CBT doesn't work, you refuse to do ERP and that is what we teach, there is no point in answering your questions.

Have a nice day.

Edited April 5, 2019 by PolarBear

[taurean]

Phil we have explained this to you before. you need to make notes so you don't need to keep asking this. Take a look back over the thread and apply the answer.

We all have to learn how to "fly solo" in order to get better - we can't rely on the good nature of volunteer helpers, who may feel they aren't being listened to and so won't continue the dialogue.

   

[Guest Phil10]

Reading back doesn’t help as I have new issues each day.

Anyway today my staff badge fell on a bin bag at work I was a bit stressed but I never had the rumitation or worry after it.

Also I have opted to use the towel rail at the moment I have not contemplated worrying what the cosqeunces using it would be but I have reminded myself there maybe was no contamination there on the rail. 

[Guest Phil10]

On 03/04/2019 at 09:45, dksea said:

How long did you do the CBT?  While you were doing it did you do the work or did you simply show up for the counseling sessions?  Did you do ERP at all?  I'm sorry Phil, but honestly, based on what you have said on this forum about what you will do and won't do, I don't think the issue is CBT not working, I think the issue is that you aren't willing to do the work that CBT requires.  When someone is as in deep with OCD as you seem to be its going to take more than a couple of sessions to undo all the bad habits/compulsions you have and make the change in your life.  I'm not sure what you expected out of CBT, but it seems to me you were hoping for a quick fix and gave up because it doesn't offer that. Yet here you are, continuing to suffer, despite having found the "cure" for anxiety.  I really think you should answer the questions raised.  Why isn't this cure working?  Why do you not only continue to suffer, but continue to get worse?  I hope someday you will realize that the "cure" is nothing but snake oil and you (and others) are being taken advantage of
 

There is a difference between talking and getting help, and simply writing out your latest obsessive worries.  Doing the later is a compulsion, and not doing it isn't "bottling" things up.  I'm not sure who told you that this behavior, this constant anxiety diary writing is necessary or helpful, but I can honestly say I don't think they are helping you.

I did CBT for six months maybe more and yes I did the homework but it never seemed that effective she did various approaches from counting thoughts, writing them down, exposures basically everything. She stopped seeing me as I had a moment of wellness when I was able to manage my ocd and say the right things particularly via the programme I mentioned however since I gave up the homework I got sucked back into old ways.

[Orwell1984]

1 hour ago, Phil10 said:

Reading back doesn’t help as I have new issues each day.

What a waste of time.