Are we even real?

[taurean]

4 minutes ago, Paul92 said:

. First step is stopping Googling and going on englightenment forums etc

Absolutely. 

Yep Roy it is, and I hope to keep helping. 

[Guest OCDhavenobrain]

How many times do we need to say it hehe. You can hold those ideas perfectly fine without being heartbreaked and afraid of there being no self to the point where you want to kill yourself.

The thing which have happened here is that your OCD is faking all those concerns. 

You could say I ridicoul those believes because I do. Your OCD is dragging you around just for fun.

[taurean]

Whatever we obsess + carry out compulsions and experience disorder about, it is robbing us of health and happiness plus also affecting those dear to us and friends and acquaintances. 

So when we find our mind being pulled down that obsessional path, gently but firmly shifting it away is an important element of CBT. 

Diligently done, that - not the focus on the obsession - becomes the norm. 

It works, it really does, as part of the CBT process explained above. 

[Guest Phil10]

I think it’s a shame Paul is being told not to post as a diary similar to me because like I said you have to speak about these issues rather than bottle them up. I understand these thoughts Paul as I have suffered similar ones. 

It seems people would rather not listen which makes me wonder why the forum exists. In short that’s why I will continue to write the so called diary but I will most likely post on an alternative forum. 

Edited March 30, 2019 by Phil10

[PolarBear]

Phil, you are forgetting that a good many of us have years of experience helping OCD sufferers. Some of us have helped hundreds, if not thousands of sufferers. We know OCD inside and out. We know its tricks. And we can spot a compulsion a mile off.

Your writing out nearly every obsession is a compulsion. You are doing it to make yourself feel better. It may work in the very short term but it is harming you in the long run.

You are from the first to keep an obsession diary on here. We've seen it all. In all cases it was a compulsion. We explained that endlessly and encouraged all to stop.

Edited March 30, 2019 by PolarBear

[taurean]

The only time I think it is useful to keep a diary of obsessive thoughts is as part of a course of CBT therapy. 

The therapist asks the sufferer to keep a log of their intrusive thoughts, in a particular format, for a certain period, and can then analyse them to see what is actually going on in the sufferers mind. 

This is priceless to the process of identifying OCD, phobias, other thinking distortions, worry or general anxiety. 

Outside of that specific therapeutic purpose I think keeping a diary of obsessional thinking is an unhelpful compulsion and inhibits rather than helps recovery. 

Our forums exist to share information to aid recovery from OCD. Pure and simple. 

I have only used one forum site, this one. It's so good, why would I go anywhere else? 

And I have a feeling that posting on other sites as well might only aid connecting with and believing that there is some reality to the obsession - in other words that in itself is  an unhelpful compulsion. 

So I have kept to one forum. Initially my topics and posts were a mix of seeking and giving advice. 

Thanks to receiving and implimenting advice from here I need currently only post to help others

 

Edited March 30, 2019 by taurean

[Guest Paul92]

It's a matter of trust, I guess. Use the forums if you trust the people here will only tell you what needs to be done to aid your recovery. 

And I do trust many on here. The helped I've received over the years has been incredible. I had another account before this one, and have been posting since late 2012.

The techniques we are told to utilise do work. They have so many times for me. However, when it has come to existential issues, I've really struggled even when I've tried to use those same techniques. And I get scared that it isn't OCD issue. 

But again, I will trust. I've nothing to lose. This evening I've not googled anything and tried to just focus on other things. I've never felt anxiety like this. 

 

[PolarBear]

We feel for you Paul. One of the truisms of OCD is whatever obsessions you're having right now, they seem the worst ever. What you had before often pales in comparison to what you're dealing with currently.

[Guest Paul92]

1 minute ago, PolarBear said:

We feel for you Paul. One of the truisms of OCD is whatever obsessions you're having right now, they seem the worst ever. What you had before often pales in comparison to what you're dealing with currently.

That's so true, I have to admit. I was actually thinking earlier I wish I could just go back to worrying about the end of the universe! 

[PolarBear]

[taurean]

The sad fact is we can obsessively worry about literally anything. 

But we can also stop that worry. 

The first time I got given a performance target in terms of income in a role as a client service executive it scared me rigid - and I went to bed agonising over what ifs. 

But around 4 a.m.I realised the ruminating was pointless. I would simply do the best I could. If I made the target great. If I didn't so what, it was never likely anyway. 

From that moment the anxiety faded away, I went to sleep and never gave the targets any thought thereafter. I stopped the obsessive thinking in its tracks as I realised it was pointless. 

In another incident, when driving here to view this property before offering for it, I thought I might inadvertently have driven through a red light. 

In the hotel at night I found myself obsessing and ruminating about this. 

But I knew that if I had gone through the light, and been spotted on a CCTV camera, the worst that would happen would be a fine and three points on my licence - and I had none to date. 

So I didn't listen to OCD trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. And went off to sleep calm. 

And nothing eventuated anyway. 

Whatever the obsessional thinking, on whatever trait or theme, ruminating will give it power and strength and frequency. Letting it be, and getting on with life by refocusing and not believing, we defuse it. 

Some obsessions are more difficult than others, seem more real than others. But they are still the same old OCD beneath the smokescreen. 

Edited March 30, 2019 by taurean

[taurean]

3 hours ago, Paul92 said:

Thanks for that, Roy (I think that's your name). You've always been a great source of help for me and others. And I know how frustrating it must be for you to keep coming here and see me going round in circles. Please don't give up on me, I feel so alone.

We need never be alone when we log on here. 

My name Roy means King, from the French "Roi". And my forum name, Taurean? Well my birth sign is Taurus, so it seemed to suit - though I may be persuasive, but I don't think I'm bullish

[Guest Phil10]

1 hour ago, PolarBear said:

Phil, you are forgetting that a good many of us have years of experience helping OCD sufferers. Some of us have helped hundreds, if not thousands of sufferers. We know OCD inside and out. We know its tricks. And we can spot a compulsion a mile off.

Your writing out nearly every obsession is a compulsion. You are doing it to make yourself feel better. It may work in the very short term but it is harming you in the long run.

You are from the first to keep an obsession diary on here. We've seen it all. In all cases it was a compulsion. We explained that endlessly and encouraged all to stop.

If that was the case I would be better and wouldn’t suffer ocd. Bottling up causes breakdowns that’s a fact I know I had one. Exposure thearpy doesn’t work for everybody. Despite what CBT says ocd can be beaten purely by anxiety elimination not touching bins. But yes I’ve not seen any evidence this forum works. 

[taurean]

3 minutes ago, Phil10 said:

But yes I’ve not seen any evidence this forum works. 

We regularly see topics posted by members saying how much the forum has helped them get better. 

I have posted about it in my own case a number of times and Whitebeam has a current posting on this. 

This forum helps to change people's lives for the better. Shows them what they are doing wrong, shows them how to make the thinking and behavioural changes necessary to get better - based on the collective learning experiences of the members. 

But the sufferer needs to listen, learn and impliment that guidance. 

The knowledge of what to do in CBT is not complex. It's the implimentation that is difficult - and if the sufferer won't carry it out, then they aren't going to get better. 

[Guest OCDhavenobrain]

3 hours ago, Phil10 said:

I think it’s a shame Paul is being told not to post as a diary similar to me because like I said you have to speak about these issues rather than bottle them up. I understand these thoughts Paul as I have suffered similar ones. 

It seems people would rather not listen which makes me wonder why the forum exists. In short that’s why I will continue to write the so called diary but I will most likely post on an alternative forum. 

Ok do that then. Now you are just rude or trolling. You are clearly not intrested in listening if you think our reasons for not accepting compulsions are anything but for the best (when yiu demand us to listen and act with your compulsions).And when it comes to this forum not working for anyone, well here are lots of successtories.

We have explained very extensively WHY writing out (which is your main if not only purpose with the forum) are bad for you. But when you said it hasn't worked for anyone you lost me. Good luck

CBT is not working you said but this site is advocating CBT. 

Edited March 31, 2019 by OCDhavenobrain

[PolarBear]

1 hour ago, Phil10 said:

If that was the case I would be better and wouldn’t suffer ocd. Bottling up causes breakdowns that’s a fact I know I had one. Exposure thearpy doesn’t work for everybody. Despite what CBT says ocd can be beaten purely by anxiety elimination not touching bins. But yes I’ve not seen any evidence this forum works. 

Phil, the way you're going, we'll be having this same conversation five years from now. Nothing will change because you keep doing all the wrong things. You CANNOT recover from OCD while continuing to do compulsions. You just can't. 

You don't like what we say. That's fine. Some people with OCD can't handle the truth given the place they find themselves in. So they keep doing the same compulsions. Often for years. Nothing changes, except, their OCD often becomes worse.

[taurean]

Phil there are various reasons why CBT may not be working for an individual. 

They may not have understood the cognitive side, they may continue to believe what the OCD not the therapist is saying, they may not be carrying out exposure and response prevention correctly and others. 

And if the sufferer does not Impliment what they need to do, they won't get better. The best therapist in the world is rendered useless if the patient does not follow his advice. 

I am doing really well now thanks to CBT and the wisdom of the members here. Have been for two years now. 

I could leave the forums and disappear off into the sunset, just returning if I need to. 

But I am retired, I can give some time, and I choose to spend an hour or so of my own time each day seeking to help others, based on the knowledge I have gained on my own journey. 

If this forum had existed some 19 years ago, when I first began to really struggle, I might have improved much sooner. 

That's why I spend time here as a helper. I don't want others to suffer as I have done, when I know they can get better if they listen learn and impliment what is said. 

I KNOW they can. Because I did. 

 

Edited March 31, 2019 by taurean

[paradoxer]

2 hours ago, OCDhavenobrain said:

Ok do that then. Now you are just rude or trolling. You are clearly not intrested in listening if you think our reasons for not accepting compulsions are anything but for the best (when yiu demand us to listen and act with your compulsions).And when it comes to this forum not working for anyone, well here are lots of successtories.

We have explained very extensively WHY writing out (which is your main if not only purpose with the forum) are bad for you. But when you said it hasn't worked for anyone you lost me. Good luck

CBT is not working you said but this site is advocating CBT. 

Agree, pretty insulting and unappreciative, not to mention totally misguided. 

[dksea]

On 30/03/2019 at 00:24, Paul92 said:

Science seems to validate what I'm saying.

No it doesn't, not even close.  You are falling in to an OCD trap, asserting that because A is true then X must be true even though there is no factual or causal link between A and X at all.

Basically your argument is this:
1. We are all made up of particles
2. Over time we are made up of different particles
3. Beings made up of particles that change are an illusion
Therefore, we are an illusion.

The fundamental flaw in your argument is that while statement 1 and 2 are facts, there is nothing remotely factual about statement three, which means your conclusion is unsound.  Yet you are treating it as if its proven fact, and claiming that "science" validates it.  No, statement 3 is perhaps a philosophical viewpoint or opinion, but its nothing that can be proven scientifically.  Again, this is a common problem OCD sufferers have, believing opinions to be facts, assuming the worst case, and buying in to the lies that OCD tells you.  We see it everyday on this forum.  From the person who is convinced that "science" shows that the postcard they receive from someone who has had a sick family member can be "infected" to the person who constantly asserts that certain things "can't possibly be OCD" even though there is no actually reason to believe that.  This false certitude is part of OCD's lie.  Its the trap of getting you to buy in to something that is not a real threat.

[dksea]

On 29/03/2019 at 18:58, Paul92 said:

Does nobody even care that if 'our' bodies replace every single atom in them over and over again, that they might not be actually who they think they are? Who is 'you'? Who is your girlfriend, or wife or children? How can nobody just not care about that?

Nope, I don't particularly care at all, because it doesn't actually change anything.  For tens of thousands of years every human that has ever lived has lived with this as their reality.  Most of them never knew it, and they still lived their lives anyway.  It didn't matter whether they were made of a combination of earth, air, wind and fire, or a collection of just protons, neutrons, and electrons, or as we currently understand it even smaller particles.  It won't matter if tomorrow we discover we are made up of unicorn dust.  For all practical intents and purposes none of that changes how we experience life.  I still experience joy, sadness, boredom, anger, etc.  I still go to work, or eat, or sleep.  Why should I care whether or not we are made of atoms or quarks, or whatever?  That simply is the way the universe works.  Whether I know it or not, whether I like it or not, it doesn't change it, nothing I do CAN change it, it simply is.  I am a collection of particles that change over time.  Thats neither good nor bad, it simply is.  The same way it doesn't matter whether or not I like or know that water is composed of two hydrogen and one oxygen molecule.  Thats simply what water is.  What do you gain for dwelling on this?  In what way does it make your life better to focus on it or care?  You are made up of a massive collection of particles, that yes, changes over time.  So what?  It's what you are, it always has been.  You can't change it, it's the way the universe works.  You don't have to care.  OCD is telling you you do, but you really really don't.  And as I pointed out in the post above, even though its absolutely true, it doesn't even mean what you are asserting as fact that it means.  Thats why I don't care, because in the end it doesn't particularly matter.  

Actually, I take that back, I actually do care, because really its kind of amazing.  We aren't just made of random particles from anywhere, we are made of particles that used to be part of STARS.  We are LITERALLY made up of star stuff.  We are made up of particles that have existed since the beginning of time!  Right now, those particles help make up me, someday they'll make up parts of something else.  Frankly I find that amazing and cool.  So in fact I do care, and I think its awesome.
 

On 29/03/2019 at 18:58, Paul92 said:

These aren't trivial matters. They are at the core our existence.

Except they really really aren't.  Except for some obscure physics discussions, that we are made up of a collection of particles has no practical impact on our daily lives.  It doesn't change anything about how we live or love or anything else.  It simply is the nature of the universe.  No matter what the OCD tells you, the reality is you don't have to care.  You can live a long and meaningful life as yourself AND know that your body is made up of constantly changing particles.  There is nothing contradictory about these two things.  The only thing standing in your way is OCD, you can tackle the OCD or you can let it rule your life.  That IS something you can change.  Thats where you should focus your energy, not on ruminating about things that you can't change and which don't even mean what you think they mean.

[dksea]

15 hours ago, Phil10 said:

If that was the case I would be better and wouldn’t suffer ocd. Bottling up causes breakdowns that’s a fact I know I had one. Exposure thearpy doesn’t work for everybody. Despite what CBT says ocd can be beaten purely by anxiety elimination not touching bins. But yes I’ve not seen any evidence this forum works. 

To sum up, you consistently ignore the advice you have been given by people on this forum, continue to engage in compulsive behavior despite being told repeatedly, by multiple forum members that your diary writing is problematic, and then you complain that you aren't getting better and blame the forum for it?

Thats like blaming your doctor for being in bad health when he tells you to eat right and exercise, and you instead insist that the answer is eating junk food and not exercising.

If your approach was the correct one, if giving in to compulsions, like constantly writing out your latest obsession was the solution, then you should have been cured long ago, no?  You can't simultaneously claim to have the answers AND be talking about how much worse you are getting.  It just doesn't work that way.

You get to choose how you live your life and how you approach your OCD, but don't blame the people on this forum when things don't work if you are going to choose to ignore the advice you are given.  Thats absolutely not fair.

[Guest Paul92]

@dksea Thanks for your posts but you might be missing my overarching points which are the ones spouted by people such as Eckhart Tolle and his MILLIONS of followers. The thing is, a lot of it makes sense, but at the same time it is VERY scary and hard to accept. The idea of who you think YOU is is an illusion. A story that you tell yourself, which isn't real. Our sense of self is an illusion. We are events not people (as individual absolute entities like we think we are). We have developed a sense of self that is an illusion. Which is basically what Buddhism is all about. The ego. Which is why we suffer. We think bad things are happening to US, when ultimately, the US is an illusion. Does this make sense?

So when I'm hugging my loved ones, I'm hugging a bag of particles that thinks it is something that it isn't. THAT is terrifying and takes absolutely all the colour out of my life. From day one, we are conditioned to believe we are individuals. We are like this, we are like that.

Tolle and others say we think we are seperate from the universe, but we are the universe.

However, he also says he was a spiritual healer. They believe in channeling, being able to change things with your thoughts etc. I absolutely don't believe in any of that. They say that animals don't have an ego or a sense of self, but I am not totally convinced by that.

If a human was born in a forest and never came into contact with anyone else, assuming it could somehow feed itself, surely it would grow up with a sense of self? Maybe science has actually shown us that we are not who we think we are.

This is horrible. I was to invest myself in genuine other people. Absolute entities, but we aren't. We're just a mental construct, can anyone not see that?

I feel horrendous this afternoon. I don't know if it is the pill or whatever but I feel completely hopeless. The girl I was seeing has said she wants to be alone to figure out who she is.

[Guest OCDhavenobrain]

More of the same Paul. I love some of the you are talking about and many others do too without letting their OCD tell them they need to suffer. What is happening here is that your OCD tells you that you need to feel bad and crappy and yiu are trying to reason yourself out of it. Won't work.

SSRI won't do that much neither if you are not focusing on CBT.

 

Edit: You didn't really answer the post you replied to, you are just writing it down so we can see your thoughts to test if you need to feel this way.

Edited March 31, 2019 by OCDhavenobrain

[taurean]

Everybody else's obsessions are massively important to they themselves, but others see them as unimportant, insignificant. 

This was especially brought home to me at a support group meeting when, having explained the nature of my problem, a person was amazed that I could waste so much time on what, to him, was just silly. 

It didn't offend me; rather it opened my eyes to the amount of my life being consumed by OCD. 

Some OCD sufferers have the obsession that they live in a parallel universe and this cruelly torments them. 

To me, that is another theme that would make a good science fiction story - but to the sufferer it's not fiction, it's fact. 

It used to amaze me how much effort people now put into trying to prove their obsessions are true. Now, because it takes away so much of their health and happiness, I am saddened by it. 

 

[PolarBear]

4 hours ago, Paul92 said:

@dksea Thanks for your posts but you might be missing my overarching points which are the ones spouted by people such as Eckhart Tolle and his MILLIONS of followers. The thing is, a lot of it makes sense, but at the same time it is VERY scary and hard to accept. The idea of who you think YOU is is an illusion. A story that you tell yourself, which isn't real. Our sense of self is an illusion. We are events not people (as individual absolute entities like we think we are). We have developed a sense of self that is an illusion. Which is basically what Buddhism is all about. The ego. Which is why we suffer. We think bad things are happening to US, when ultimately, the US is an illusion. Does this make sense?

So when I'm hugging my loved ones, I'm hugging a bag of particles that thinks it is something that it isn't. THAT is terrifying and takes absolutely all the colour out of my life. From day one, we are conditioned to believe we are individuals. We are like this, we are like that.

Tolle and others say we think we are seperate from the universe, but we are the universe.

However, he also says he was a spiritual healer. They believe in channeling, being able to change things with your thoughts etc. I absolutely don't believe in any of that. They say that animals don't have an ego or a sense of self, but I am not totally convinced by that.

If a human was born in a forest and never came into contact with anyone else, assuming it could somehow feed itself, surely it would grow up with a sense of self? Maybe science has actually shown us that we are not who we think we are.

This is horrible. I was to invest myself in genuine other people. Absolute entities, but we aren't. We're just a mental construct, can anyone not see that?

I feel horrendous this afternoon. I don't know if it is the pill or whatever but I feel completely hopeless. The girl I was seeing has said she wants to be alone to figure out who she is.

No, Paul. I don't see that and I never will. 

Once again, we are not here to engage with a philosophical debate with you. Doing so would be aiding you wirh a compulsion, accomplish nothing and ultimately harm you.

Throw the books away. Tell Mr. Tolle to take a hike.