Struggling still

[gingerbreadgirl]

Hi everyone 

I'm back after a break from the forum. I am struggling still although on balance things are better than they were. I had a big relapse in 2017 and it hasn't really gone away for more than short periods since then despite me throwing the kitchen sink at it. My main problem is that when I am sucked into an ocd episode I totally lost insight. I become TOTALLY convinced that this time it's real, if I can just solve THIS problem then all will be fine. It's like I can't hold onto the knowledge I have. Even as I'm typing this I have something gnawing at my mind which I feel the need to "sort out". 

The topic changes a lot and honestly isn't really important, although it is always some variation of "what if I'm a bad person". That question haunts me every single day and I find it hard to really enjoy life with it constantly hammering away in the background. 

Anyway this is partially a rant and partially a question - how on earth do you hold onto the rational knowledge of what you should do? I just seem to lose it in the moment. 

Thanks, and hope you're all well. 

Gbg x 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2019 by gingerbreadgirl

[taurean]

Sorry to read this GBG will give it some thought. 

Roy 

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thanks Roy, and I hope you are well? X 

[taurean]

Yep still doing fine GBG. 

[Guest OCDhavenobrain]

Welcome back.

I do feel the exact same way about it feeling so very real when it happens however I do see sooome pattern in my thinking and that there probably is a buildup before every flareup. But could be otherwise

 

I guess I would advice some detectiveworks, I thought about something. If one have something since childhood, how hard is it not to think in another way, even the possibility of there being a different way.

Edited April 2, 2019 by OCDhavenobrain

[taurean]

I have been mulling this over. 

The underlying cause seems to be this OCD core belief that you were bad, and should be punished for that. And therefore are inherently bad and may act bad again. 

And I remember you struggling with challenging that because you had done some - to your mind - bad things in the past. 

Therefore this is always likely to stand against you when trying to challenge the OCD. 

But challenge you need to, and maybe by accepting some things done in the past were wrong, but you can't change that, but you can draw a line under them and move on. 

Thus undermining OCD's case, which is you did it once before, you're just bad, rotten to the core, should be punished, could be bad again - or whatever. 

[gingerbreadgirl]

Hi Roy

Thanks for your advice and glad you're doing well. 

One thing I constantly try and work out is whether i really have been bad in the past, or if I was just a normal rebellious teenager. I've never done anything really bad I don't think. Lots of people get drunk in their teens. Really what is so bad about that?

But then I come round full circle and think, but I said hurtful things to my friends, I was out of control, etc. And then I think do I need to address this, make amends , apologise. And round and round I go. 

When I think about it rationally I can see I've never really done anything that bad, I am a kind and thoughtful person. But I can only hold onto that for short  periods and then I start feeling  this awful guilt and anxiety again.  I know this is because of dodgy core beliefs and things I absorbed as a child. 

Sigh. I kind of think this is probably just my life now. It's up and down and could be a lot worse and I have good periods where I feel happy again. But this subject will always haunt me forget I think. I guess I just have to find a way to be OK with that. 

 

[Avo]

I think most people have had elements from their past GBG that could be considered rebellious and things we would not do now etc. With the hindsight of maturity we can look back and see things differently. I have done things that don't fit with my character now and things I would not do now, some of it far from great, it can't be changed though.

I think in your case OCD is latching onto your past and magnifying things that without OCD you would be able to dismiss - if indeed you remembered them at all. I get where you coming from I struggle with past things myself. 

 You need to try and remember the techniques you have learned around not engaging with the thoughts using your CBT knowledge, I know its difficult and so so easy to get side tracked. Did you make any notes from previous times where you have had success in combating OCD? if I remember rightly you have had success in the past in dealing with OCD . 

 

[taurean]

Yes you have to spoke that anxiety wheel that keeps the problem going. 

I used to be drinking with my mates whenever I wasn't out with a girlfriend or rehearsing in my operatic society. 

It doesn't sound that bad, but there were bad things in there. 

It's only when I teamed up with Julie and we both had to seriously save money for a deposit on a flat that I broke those bad drinking habits. 

It's not been something my OCD has focused on, but if it had then I imagine I would have had experiences similar to yours. 

So I would agree, on the scale of whiter than white to bad as they come you and I would be much closer to whiter than white - and no worse than anyone else was in their younger heyday. 

I kind of think the Citalopram has really helped me because, being an anti-depressant, it has balanced out my own experience of mood peaks and troughs. 

I know you aren't keen on meds, so I would try to find the mean ground, and hang onto it, rather than slip into despondency, or be really upmarket. Somewhere between those two will be the smooth point which will help keep you balanced and more in control. 

[Em00]

45 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

Sigh. I kind of think this is probably just my life now. It's up and down and could be a lot worse and I have good periods where I feel happy again. But this subject will always haunt me forget I think. I guess I just have to find a way to be OK with that. 

I often relate to your posts gbg. 

Should we hope for things to get better or is it more realistic to accept we'll always struggle with some things?? 

[gingerbreadgirl]

31 minutes ago, Avo said:

I think most people have had elements from their past GBG that could be considered rebellious and things we would not do now etc. With the hindsight of maturity we can look back and see things differently. I have done things that don't fit with my character now and things I would not do now, some of it far from great, it can't be changed though.

I think in your case OCD is latching onto your past and magnifying things that without OCD you would be able to dismiss - if indeed you remembered them at all. I get where you coming from I struggle with past things myself. 

 You need to try and remember the techniques you have learned around not engaging with the thoughts using your CBT knowledge, I know its difficult and so so easy to get side tracked. Did you make any notes from previous times where you have had success in combating OCD? if I remember rightly you have had success in the past in dealing with OCD . 

 

Hi avo 

Thanks very much for your advice. 

I see what you're saying and I know I can't change any of the things I've done. What I really really obsess over though is whether i should apologise or make amends in some way. One of my friends in particular I know I treated really quite badly and I really want to apologise to her but I know it would be a big compulsion. Wanting to apologise is a big compulsion of mine, a bit like confessing I hope it will make me feel better or I will get some reassurance. BUT I am also scared of doing it - so in some ways an I avoiding something I should do?? Aargh. 

I do have tons and tons of notes, lol. I read them all the time. I guess I just can't quite convince myself this really is ocd because there is a kernel of truth in there, it is based on real things. 

[gingerbreadgirl]

32 minutes ago, taurean said:

Yes you have to spoke that anxiety wheel that keeps the problem going. 

I used to be drinking with my mates whenever I wasn't out with a girlfriend or rehearsing in my operatic society. 

It doesn't sound that bad, but there were bad things in there. 

It's only when I teamed up with Julie and we both had to seriously save money for a deposit on a flat that I broke those bad drinking habits. 

It's not been something my OCD has focused on, but if it had then I imagine I would have had experiences similar to yours. 

So I would agree, on the scale of whiter than white to bad as they come you and I would be much closer to whiter than white - and no worse than anyone else was in their younger heyday. 

I kind of think the Citalopram has really helped me because, being an anti-depressant, it has balanced out my own experience of mood peaks and troughs. 

I know you aren't keen on meds, so I would try to find the mean ground, and hang onto it, rather than slip into despondency, or be really upmarket. Somewhere between those two will be the smooth point which will help keep you balanced and more in control. 

Thanks Roy I can see what you're saying. A mid point is a good thing to aim for I think, just staying  in the middle x

[gingerbreadgirl]

15 minutes ago, Em00 said:

I often relate to your posts gbg. 

Should we hope for things to get better or is it more realistic to accept we'll always struggle with some things?? 

That's a good question. I've always tried to be hopeful things will get better but in a weird way I think that desperation to get rid of it might have kept me stuck. I am trying to just accept how things are right now and not look too far ahead in the future. 

[malina]

Hi GBG, I used to struggle with this theme a lot too, but have sort of managed to put it aside. I completely understand how awful you feel, it's as if there is a cloud over you that completely takes away your self worth and makes you feel like an awful person. Making amends won't help because, as you say, it's a complusion. As soon as you make amends for one thing, very quickly a new guilt theme will come up and then you'll be driving yourself crazy. 

I just started forcing myself to think logically about this. Everyone has done things in life that they aren't proud of. We have all hurt someone and we have all been hurt at some point too. Nobody has died, life goes on and we have a chance to learn from it. Maybe it would help you to remind yourself of some positive things you have done or how you have changed/grown as a person. 

[Avo]

16 hours ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

I see what you're saying and I know I can't change any of the things I've done. What I really really obsess over though is whether i should apologise or make amends in some way. One of my friends in particular I know I treated really quite badly and I really want to apologise to her but I know it would be a big compulsion. Wanting to apologise is a big compulsion of mine, a bit like confessing I hope it will make me feel better or I will get some reassurance. BUT I am also scared of doing it - so in some ways an I avoiding something I should do?? Aargh. 

I do have tons and tons of notes, lol. I read them all the time. I guess I just can't quite convince myself this really is ocd because there is a kernel of truth in there, it is based on real things. 

I get what you say about the apologising is that a compulsion for doing it? or is it avoidance for not doing it? if in the scheme of things apologising is something you recognise as a common compulsion that it suggests to me that it possibly would fit into the compulsion category.

Kernels of truth can be part of our OCD, as OCD magnifies things and makes them often seem worse than they actually are. Its a case of still recognising OCD is at play and at some point you have to take the plunge and have faith in what you have learned. 

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thanks avo. 

I think my biggest compulsion right now is trying to figure out whether apologosing would be a compulsion or whether not doing it is avoidance. I have often felt like this about, say, confessing things to my partner - I want to do it to feel better it but I'm also scared what the response will be. Then I end up doing it because I feel like a coward for not doing it if that makes sense. 

I want to say sorry primarily because I feel like it will make me feel like a good person again and my friend will reassure me (compulsion) but I'm also scared she will say "yeah you should be sorry" and therefore prove I'm a bad person (exposure) so I'm not sure what is best. And trying to figure it out is a big wallop of ruminating I know. My partner feels very strongly that I need to leave it alone and live with the doubt of not knowing for sure one way or another. My partner's view is that if I "fix" one thing another thing will come along that needs "fixing", whereas I need to learn to accept things as uncertain, and also that it would be odd to bring it up after 13+ years. I can see her point but I can't help feeling like I am running away from it and just being a selfish coward. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by gingerbreadgirl

[taurean]

52 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

My partner feels very strongly that I need to leave it alone and live with the doubt of not knowing for sure one way or another. My partner's view is that if I "fix" one thing another thing will come along that needs "fixing", whereas I need to learn to accept things as uncertain, and also that it would be odd to bring it up after 13+ years. 

Yes to all of this. Well done her. All OCD. 

 

52 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

I can see her point but I can't help feeling like I am running away from it and just being a selfish coward. 

Again classic OCD. The innuendo is still "I was bad, I must confess, she needs to know" which is just the worthless nonsense of OCD. 

Then that feeling of "I must carry out the compulsion - or" I am running away, selfish coward" etc. is to make you feel bad for NOT carrying out the compulsion. 

As always with OCD, resistance is NOT futile. A programme of refusing to go there, refusing to believe it, is the route to weakening it. And at the moment it still has you on the hook, you are still listening, still believing, still after a certainty you can never have. 

And that's why it still has power. 

 

[gingerbreadgirl]

On 03/04/2019 at 01:13, malina said:

Hi GBG, I used to struggle with this theme a lot too, but have sort of managed to put it aside. I completely understand how awful you feel, it's as if there is a cloud over you that completely takes away your self worth and makes you feel like an awful person. Making amends won't help because, as you say, it's a complusion. As soon as you make amends for one thing, very quickly a new guilt theme will come up and then you'll be driving yourself crazy. 

I just started forcing myself to think logically about this. Everyone has done things in life that they aren't proud of. We have all hurt someone and we have all been hurt at some point too. Nobody has died, life goes on and we have a chance to learn from it. Maybe it would help you to remind yourself of some positive things you have done or how you have changed/grown as a person. 

Sorry malina I missed this post. What you say makes a lot of sense thank you  

I do remind myself of how I've grown and changed and I think generally I am a good person (I have come a long way in this respect as I didn't used to think this before a while load of CBT!) 

But to my ocd this isn't enough. Somewhere in my mind is this belief it is unacceptable to have done anything wrong, and that nobody else has done this wrong like this. To have done anything wrong means to be put in the "bad person" box and the only way out of it is to mitigate everything bad I have ever done.  I feel like if I don't make amends or apologise it means I am a despicable coward and don't deserve to live etc. Which i know is a huge over reaction but it feels so real to me, it's like torture! 

[gingerbreadgirl]

1 minute ago, taurean said:

Yes to all of this. Well done her. All OCD. 

 

Again classic OCD. The innuendo is still "I was bad, I must confess, she needs to know" which is just the worthless nonsense of OCD. 

Then that feeling of "I must carry out the compulsion - or" I am running away, selfish coward" etc. is to make you feel bad for NOT carrying out the compulsion. 

As always with OCD, resistance is NOT futile. A programme of refusing to go there, refusing to believe it, is the route to weakening it. And at the moment it still has you on the hook, you are still listening, still believing, still after a certainty you can never have. 

And that's why it still has power. 

 

Thanks Roy as always you make a lot of sense  

But is avoiding apologising not avoidance? I am scared of apologising, so surely to do it would be exposure? This is where I get mega confused. 

[gingerbreadgirl]

My fear is that my friend thinks I'm not sorry. That when she thinks about it - which she probably does occasionally - she thinks "that behaviour was so bad and she's not even sorry, she's not even apologised". She has no idea I've beaten myself up all these years. 

[taurean]

7 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

Thanks Roy as always you make a lot of sense  

But is avoiding apologising not avoidance? I am scared of apologising, so surely to do it would be exposure? This is where I get mega confused. 

Look at it the same way we did in insurance. What is the "proximate cause", the real original cause from which everything else flows? 

And it is the urge to apologise, which is the compulsion. And carrying out compulsions only strengthens the OCD, maintaining your "Vicious flower" diagram and continuing the "circle of distress" 

How do we stop this, self-perpetuating, cycle? We break up the circle, spoke the wheel, so it comes to a stop. 

[malina]

3 hours ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

Sorry malina I missed this post. What you say makes a lot of sense thank you  

I do remind myself of how I've grown and changed and I think generally I am a good person (I have come a long way in this respect as I didn't used to think this before a while load of CBT!) 

But to my ocd this isn't enough. Somewhere in my mind is this belief it is unacceptable to have done anything wrong, and that nobody else has done this wrong like this. To have done anything wrong means to be put in the "bad person" box and the only way out of it is to mitigate everything bad I have ever done.  I feel like if I don't make amends or apologise it means I am a despicable coward and don't deserve to live etc. Which i know is a huge over reaction but it feels so real to me, it's like torture! 

I had a session with my therapist about this today and thought of you! We were doing an exercise where you essentially say what you feel guilty for and then you stand up for yourself against these beliefs. It was quite funny saying some of my worries aloud because it highlighted how some of them made no sense at all!

I think you just need more practice. You know this is OCD, so practice reminding yourself of that. When you feel guilt, work at not allowing yourself to ruminate and analyse. With practice you’ll get better at it. I think sometimes you have to be categorical about it and just make  resolution not to slip into it.

with regards to your friend, I understand that you must feel bad for mistreating her. However, I think OCD makes us feel an inflated sense of responsibility. In that, it also makes us think that others have no agency. If your friend is truly still angry with you, she can also come to you with that. If she doesn’t, there is no need to bring all this up again. 

You have clearly learned a lot through CBT but I think you’ve hit a point where you just need to work more. It’s like sport or anything else that requires learning a skill. You just keep at it until you get good at it. Good luck GBG!

[Avo]

8 hours ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

I want to say sorry primarily because I feel like it will make me feel like a good person again and my friend will reassure me (compulsion) but I'm also scared she will say "yeah you should be sorry" and therefore prove I'm a bad person (exposure) so I'm not sure what is best. And trying to figure it out is a big wallop of ruminating I know. My partner feels very strongly that I need to leave it alone and live with the doubt of not knowing for sure one way or another. My partner's view is that if I "fix" one thing another thing will come along that needs "fixing", whereas I need to learn to accept things as uncertain, and also that it would be odd to bring it up after 13+ years. I can see her point but I can't help feeling like I am running away from it and just being a selfish coward. 

I think your partner is right, if you apologise over this then OCD will almost certainly find another incident to focus on and you could well end up feeling you have to go down a similar route and then where you could be on a slippery slope of confessing and apologising. 

Also try and remember no one is all good or all bad, people are a mixture of this. Trying to be good all the time through all our lives I would say is impossible. We are doomed to fail by holding ourselves to impossibly high standards. 

I think you need to try and be kinder to yourself 

[Binxy]

2 hours ago, Avo said:

I think your partner is right, if you apologise over this then OCD will almost certainly find another incident to focus on and you could well end up feeling you have to go down a similar route and then where you could be on a slippery slope of confessing and apologising. 

Completely agree with this. Or, alternatively, if your partner says it's nothing to worry about, a few hours later you'll be looking for reassurance about it again.

We've all done daft things, things we're not proud of, things we wish we hadn't said, things we regret- this is completely normal. 

As Avo says, be kinder to yourself GBG.

You've beat this before and you will beat it again.

Binx

[Em00]

Have you ever done Compassion based therapy gbg?