I don't know whether I am OK or not

[paradoxer]

On 23/04/2019 at 12:57, gingerbreadgirl said:

I've realised that most people, regardless of what they've done in life, have a foundation - like a baseline - of feeling like they are basically OK and this is solid and permanent. I have a theory that people who feel this way don't understand what it would feel like otherwise. 

i constantly wrestle with whether I am bad or good. This is partly ocd but I had this feeling before ocd came along even as a child. 

I don't believe this logically. I know I am a good and kind person, mostly. But this feeling that I might be terrible haunts me and I worry about whether the world would have been better if I'd never been born, etc. 

You could call this low self esteem but I don't think it is really. I don't really think I am worse than the people around me. It is more a phobia, like I am afraid I am bad in moments of high emotion. I worry that my concept of reality, and myself, is wrong - what if I am toxic, hurtful and unkind to people all the time and I don't realise it because I am, say, a narcissist or psychotic? 

I just wondered if anyone has any tips. This seems to be my default that I revert to and in those moments I truly believe it. Like I truly believe I am just a terrible person. It colours absolutely everything I do. 

This isn't about building evidence that I'm good, because I know there is evidence, it's not about that. It's not rational. So how do I approach it when it's not rational? 

Thank you  

 

gingerbreadgirl, you've probably seen my related mantra, about nobody being good (or bad), just human. From a cognitive behavioral POV judgement doesn't come into it. My take, don't set yourself up to to be a 'good' person, it'll just get you into trouble.  I recall an interview with an OCD therapist I respect, a long time ago, saying to a questioner that he could prove they were a rotten person. It's easy, being human is enough. Who hasn't done bad or cruel things? Stepped on ants as a kid, lied, stolen, cheated etc.  Once OCD latches onto something, it'll never be enough. You could have led the most impossibly exemplary life, and it still wouldn't be enough. OCD would find something.  And here's the fun kicker about thinking oneself to be good ... it could be seen as a conceit ... thus cancelling out that pristine morality.     

[taurean]

32 minutes ago, paradoxer said:

But this feeling that I might be terrible haunts me and I worry about whether the world would have been better if I'd never been born, etc. 

You could call this low self esteem but I don't think it is really. I don't really think I am worse than the people around me. It is more a phobia, like I am afraid I am bad in moments of high emotion. I worry that my concept of reality, and myself, is wrong - what if I am toxic, hurtful and unkind to people all the time and I don't realise it because I am, say, a narcissist or psychotic? 

Following on from paradoxer's succinct advice, I read through what you said and this screams OCD to me. 

32 minutes ago, paradoxer said:

i constantly wrestle with whether I am bad or good. This is partly ocd but I had this feeling before ocd came along even as a child. 

"Constantly wrestle" is OCD isn't it? A repetitive obsession leading to urge to compulse plus distress. 

"but I had this feeling before ocd came along even as a child". Then OCD was there all along , but you didn't realise it. 

So, I reckon it's time to accept all along that you have this as a theme of OCD, and it was there right from the start of it. 

Time to accept what we always say. Take a leap of faith that it was so all along - and that the "bad" things you say you did are like we all are. Was Roy always so apparently good? No.

Might some see me in a different light if they knew some of the things I got up to before enlightenment? 

Most likely not. Because they themselves would also have done things they now deem bad. 

And my OCD has always been a part of my makeup, I understand that now. It just became more prominent, but very occasional, in my early twenties, and then in my early fifties progressively worse until I eventually put together the combination of therapies that has put me where I am today. 

One final thing. From a self-help book came the extract "we aren't bad and we never were". Taken literally it wouldn't be right for anyone would it? 

And that is the key to this whole thing. A non-sufferer from this theme, like me, would gloss over their erstwhile bad elements and their normal thinking would probably equate with this statement. 

It's only when they dig deeper, like I have done, that their actual misdemeanours come to light. 

For many years now I have followed the path of righteous living and am proud of that. 

I am not proud of - but don't think about - the wrongs I did before then. 

All the best GBG. Hope this makes a difference. 

Roy 

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by taurean

[Ashley]

On 23/04/2019 at 20:57, gingerbreadgirl said:

what if I am toxic, hurtful and unkind to people all the time and I don't realise it because I am, say, a narcissist or psychotic? 

Well of course we have had one or two of those on the forum over the years, but trust me when I say you are at the opposite end of that spectrum!!!!!  Which I know is arguably giving you reassurance, but sometimes, just very rarely it can be helpful to give that if it is point such obvious, but needed words about someone's lovely character traits.

On 23/04/2019 at 20:57, gingerbreadgirl said:

how do I approach it when it's not rational? 

I haven't read the rest of the thread so this may have already been mentioned. But when you're doubting in the way you are it's (as you know) classic OCD, obsessions about getting things perfect (your character) and need 100% certainty that your character is perfect. The OCD is not letting you rest because of uncertainty. So how you approach it (I think) is like any other aspect of OCD I guess, by finding a way to be content with the uncertainty and not slipping into rumination mode (which I know is easier said than done).

Shout if you need to chat

[Guest OCDhavenobrain]

The only true way out of it is to stop trying to figure it out

There is a possibility that you are cruel and nasty. Having that option open is the only way when you have got stuck on it.

Edited April 25, 2019 by OCDhavenobrain

[paradoxer]

taurean, no big thing mate, the context I think is clear, but those quotes are reading wrong. I know, it's the sometimes pesky formatting!

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thank you very much everyonefor your really kind and helpful responses. A lot of really useful stuff here. I am feeling quite a bit better, I have been trying hard not to ruminate on this. It is never ending the things ocd likes to torment us with!!

[taurean]

On 26/04/2019 at 00:23, paradoxer said:

taurean, no big thing mate, the context I think is clear, but those quotes are reading wrong. I know, it's the sometimes pesky formatting!

Yep, touch of software glitch I think, but the context is clear

 

[taurean]

48 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

Thank you very much everyonefor your really kind and helpful responses. A lot of really useful stuff here. I am feeling quite a bit better, I have been trying hard not to ruminate on this. It is never ending the things ocd likes to torment us with!!

We have to, perhaps, expect it to throw us another wobbly of some dastardly nature. 

And be ready to "uncloak" it. 

Part of the difficulty is the sufferer may not spot it, it can be masterfully concealed. 

But I reckon our forum "collective" have got pretty good at spotting it. 

Hope you have a pleasant weekend GBG.  

Edited April 27, 2019 by taurean

[gingerbreadgirl]

14 minutes ago, taurean said:

Hope you have a pleasant weekend GBG.  

Thanks so much Roy and you as well  

[gingerbreadgirl]

I think I struggle because everyone around me seems so whiter than white. It makes me feel like I need their approval constantly, that they are qualified to judge me. People say "everyone makes mistakes" but not everyone has done and said the things I've done. The mistakes most people make are just really tiny - it actually really irritates me when people use them as examples. I feel like my mistakes are not individual actions but actually just reveal my character. Yes I am nice most of the time but so are sociopaths. When I am upset or angry I reveal my true self. 

[taurean]

It still smells of OCD GBG. 

See if you can work out the core belief from what you have summarised above. 

I am of the opinion myself that uncloaking the core belief can make things a whole lot easier to accept and treat. 

 

[gingerbreadgirl]

I imagine it's something like "if I am not prefect then I must be worthless" - I know there is definitely a boatload of black and white thinking going on. It just feels so real to me though. 

[taurean]

Yep there is some black and white thinking in the mix, but there's also "what if I really am a bad person (based on previous misdemeanors) and I deserve to be punished by unhappiness, maybe I shouldn't be here - and what if I can never shrug this off, although I have been a good person in recent history?" 

Bit long-winded in that initial thinking, but I think this sums up nicely the OCD elements, and shows why you haven't managed to break free. 

It's got all the key elements:

Periods of repetitive thinking, rumination, distress. 

The feeling" I must be a bad person "although this was ages in the past - and you are frequently having episodes (typical OCD) of being pegged back to that by the OCD. 

Inability to apply self-forgiveness. 

Doubt and uncertainty. 

Self-worth Issues. 

Catastrophic thinking - I am stuck, I will never get over this. 

Edited April 27, 2019 by taurean

[gingerbreadgirl]

1 hour ago, taurean said:

Yep there is some black and white thinking in the mix, but there's also "what if I really am a bad person (based on previous misdemeanors) and I deserve to be punished by unhappiness, maybe I shouldn't be here - and what if I can never shrug this off, although I have been a good person in recent history?" 

Bit long-winded in that initial thinking, but I think this sums up nicely the OCD elements, and shows why you haven't managed to break free. 

It's got all the key elements:

Periods of repetitive thinking, rumination, distress. 

The feeling" I must be a bad person "although this was ages in the past - and you are frequently having episodes (typical OCD) of being pegged back to that by the OCD. 

Inability to apply self-forgiveness. 

Doubt and uncertainty. 

Self-worth Issues. 

Catastrophic thinking - I am stuck, I will never get over this. 

This all sounds very plausible!  

I worry about analysing it too much (I have analysed it to death over the years) - as it always seems to come back to ruminating. At the same time though I feel there has to be a way past this. I can't spend the rest of my life feeling I might be a monster can I? Surely I deserve more than that, we all do. I don't know how to address it though. 

Thanks Roy as always x 

 

[taurean]

20 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

. At the same time though I feel there has to be a way past this. I can't spend the rest of my life feeling I might be a monster can I? Surely I deserve more than that, we all do. I don't know how to address it though. 

 

Why not take that leap of faith that it's all an over-exaggeration due to OCD? 

Just stick with that whatever otherwise your brain tries to tell you. 

And use the "gentle but firm" refocusing away technique which snowbear suggested to me, and has worked so well for me. 

The current intrusive thought - benavioursl response - carry out compulsions method can - for reasons previously given here probably but certainly elsewhere on the forums - never ever work, as it just makes the OCD stronger and more frequent. 

[Avo]

I think Roy has given some great advice GBG, the leap of faith element is something you have to take at some point. OCD exaggerates things so much. If you dug into most peoples past you could find things that they are not proud of and would not match their character nowadays. I could give some examples of things from my past but I think it may risk a re-assurance type scenario which as we know is a compulsion and feeds the OCD.

You seem to have a good grasp of CBT and how OCD works. I have seen you give very sensible advice to other forum users (myself included). That said its very tricky at times, I know all too well as I am sure others do how tricky OCD is. 

Would you consider self referring for CBT ? I don't know what the situation is like  in your area but if you at least got put on the waiting list? I appreciate is very much a postcode lottery. I think I also remember you saying that you had been prescribed at some point medication? possibly fluoxetine ? but decided not to take it. (sorry if I have got that wrong.)

As we have said medication is not a cure and everyone reacts differently, but it can help take the edge off anxiety and perhaps make us a bit more pre-disposed to engaging with CBT. I must stress I am not a doctor and I think you should speak to your GP again before taking any form of medication, but again its maybe worth considering. 

 

 

 

[gingerbreadgirl]

1 hour ago, taurean said:

Why not take that leap of faith that it's all an over-exaggeration due to OCD? 

Just stick with that whatever otherwise your brain tries to tell you. 

And use the "gentle but firm" refocusing away technique which snowbear suggested to me, and has worked so well for me. 

The current intrusive thought - benavioursl response - carry out compulsions method can - for reasons previously given here probably but certainly elsewhere on the forums - never ever work, as it just makes the OCD stronger and more frequent. 

Hi Roy,

Thanks I think you're right, I need to leave this be (at least for now) rather than digging for the core belief and so on.  My OCD does seem to have flared up a bit of late and I am giving it the fuel it wants rather than just letting it starve as I should. 

I am trying hard not to ruminate and instead focus on other things. Thanks x

[gingerbreadgirl]

16 minutes ago, Avo said:

I think Roy has given some great advice GBG, the leap of faith element is something you have to take at some point. OCD exaggerates things so much. If you dug into most peoples past you could find things that they are not proud of and would not match their character nowadays. I could give some examples of things from my past but I think it may risk a re-assurance type scenario which as we know is a compulsion and feeds the OCD.

You seem to have a good grasp of CBT and how OCD works. I have seen you give very sensible advice to other forum users (myself included). That said its very tricky at times, I know all too well as I am sure others do how tricky OCD is. 

Would you consider self referring for CBT ? I don't know what the situation is like  in your area but if you at least got put on the waiting list? I appreciate is very much a postcode lottery. I think I also remember you saying that you had been prescribed at some point medication? possibly fluoxetine ? but decided not to take it. (sorry if I have got that wrong.)

As we have said medication is not a cure and everyone reacts differently, but it can help take the edge off anxiety and perhaps make us a bit more pre-disposed to engaging with CBT. I must stress I am not a doctor and I think you should speak to your GP again before taking any form of medication, but again its maybe worth considering. 

 

 

 

Hi Avo,

Thanks very much for this  You're right I can give advice but not take it very well haha, i really need to walk the walk!! 

I have thought about self-referring for CBT but my experience last time was very poor and I am just extremely cynical about them being able to tell me something I have't already read somewhere else.  The lady I saw last time knew absolutely nothing, her knowledge was very surface-level. and actually her recommendations were in some ways harmful (I think) as she got me to examine the evidence, ask other people for reassurance, and so on.  it made the whole thing worse.

You're right I have been prescribed fluoxetine (well-remembered!  ) and I do sometimes consider taking it but something always stops me for some reason.  Knowing it's in the cupboard helps me, though.  I have a tendency to become dependent on certain crutches and I don't want to feel I can't cope without medication (that is just me, though.) 

I know my first priority NEEDS to be to stop ruminating.  I'm going to just pour all of my effort into that and stop complicating things!

Thanks  Hope you're doing OK? x

[Avo]

 

1 hour ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

I have thought about self-referring for CBT but my experience last time was very poor and I am just extremely cynical about them being able to tell me something I have't already read somewhere else.  The lady I saw last time knew absolutely nothing, her knowledge was very surface-level. and actually her recommendations were in some ways harmful (I think) as she got me to examine the evidence, ask other people for reassurance, and so on.  it made the whole thing worse

Its tricky as some therapists seem to have very little knowledge of OCD. I have had some poor therapists myself. I don't know how long ago your last therapy was but you could always ask to be allocated to a different person and also to emphasise you need to see someone with a good understanding of OCD. That's what I did and I was fortunate as my last therapist was good and understood the disorder. The situation may be better locally now? 

1 hour ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

You're right I have been prescribed fluoxetine (well-remembered!  ) and I do sometimes consider taking it but something always stops me for some reason.  Knowing it's in the cupboard helps me, though.  I have a tendency to become dependent on certain crutches and I don't want to feel I can't cope without medication (that is just me, though.)

That last bit sounds like me!, I resisted medication for so long, mainly because in my mind it was a sign of weakness. I thought I could sort myself out. I must admit for me a series of tough life events added to my change in thinking - things beyond just my OCD  and in the end I decided to take the plunge. Things were so bad in the end I came to the conclusion that what had I got to lose? It was fluoxetine that I was prescribed.  I am not saying your in a place like I was and hopefully you will never be! however I think I had a similar mindset. 

Ideally I would like to not be on anything but I do feel that I have benefitted from taking it, I am not against coming off it at some point, I feel however life is a bit on edge for me at the moment so have agreed with my doctor last month to remain on them for another 12 months as this year may throw some tough things my way. 

I am ok thanks - have a bit of man flu currently so am feeling a bit sorry for myself! 

Edited April 27, 2019 by Avo

[Gemma7]

Why does it matter if you're a bad person? What does it change?

[gingerbreadgirl]

4 hours ago, Avo said:

 

Its tricky as some therapists seem to have very little knowledge of OCD. I have had some poor therapists myself. I don't know how long ago your last therapy was but you could always ask to be allocated to a different person and also to emphasise you need to see someone with a good understanding of OCD. That's what I did and I was fortunate as my last therapist was good and understood the disorder. The situation may be better locally now? 

That last bit sounds like me!, I resisted medication for so long, mainly because in my mind it was a sign of weakness. I thought I could sort myself out. I must admit for me a series of tough life events added to my change in thinking - things beyond just my OCD  and in the end I decided to take the plunge. Things were so bad in the end I came to the conclusion that what had I got to lose? It was fluoxetine that I was prescribed.  I am not saying your in a place like I was and hopefully you will never be! however I think I had a similar mindset. 

Ideally I would like to not be on anything but I do feel that I have benefitted from taking it, I am not against coming off it at some point, I feel however life is a bit on edge for me at the moment so have agreed with my doctor last month to remain on them for another 12 months as this year may throw some tough things my way. 

I am ok thanks - have a bit of man flu currently so am feeling a bit sorry for myself! 

Sounds like you did a good job pursuing it and finding someone who worked well for you  I guess I sort of feel like I know what I should be doing, I'm just a bit rubbish at doing it, and short of putting a gun to my head a therapist can't really change that haha

Sorry to hear you're not feeling too good, I hope you feel better soon! X 

[gingerbreadgirl]

45 minutes ago, Gemma7 said:

Why does it matter if you're a bad person? What does it change?

Hi gemma 

Ha that's a good question and one I've asked myself. Honestly I don't know what scares me so much it just feels like the worst thing in the world to me. 

[taurean]

Which makes it catastrophic thinking, typical of an OCD theme. The illness blows up the importance of what to non-sufferers is easily dismissed into something utterly unacceptable and disastrous. 

I think you have it GBG. You know not to buy into this, but struggle to take that line. 

Homework beckons....... 

[gingerbreadgirl]

I think that if I was a bad person the people in my life would stop loving me. I think that's what scares me so much. That one day they would find out the real me and that's it, curtains. 

I also worry that i have hurt people and continue to hurt people without really realising and that massively bothers me. I feel like everyone thinks badly of me or they would do if I dropped my act, and I worry they are right to do so. I feel like everyone else is qualified to judge me. 

[Gemma7]

4 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

I think that if I was a bad person the people in my life would stop loving me. I think that's what scares me so much. That one day they would find out the real me and that's it, curtains. 

This shouts of insecure attachments. Like you need to be good to have someone's favour, like you always have had to, so being good becomes critical. So critical in fact that you'll review past behaviour to work out where you went wrong, check how you act day to day, watch what you say and spend time learning the difference between what's good and what's bad and compare yourself to it. 

All the while these actions makes you feel like a bad person, and so it goes on.