I don't know whether I am OK or not

[gingerbreadgirl]

I see why you say that I really do but I don't want to pin any of this in my parents, I had a great childhood and I felt secure with my parents, they were very loving. I don't know why I feel like this now, I shouldn't really, I want to be able to just shut it off and feel at peace with myself. 

[Gemma7]

It's not about pinning anything on anyone. No one tries to get their child anxiously attached but it happens, even to parents with the best intentions. Having a good opinion of your parents and not of yourself is atypical for someone with an anxious attachment. I'm sorry GBG but I think you are in denial about this. You can't possibly just think you shouldn't feel this way, perhaps instead how you feel is logical considering how your life has gone up to now. 

I'm sorry if I'm harsh or have crossed any lines for you I just don't want you to blame yourself anymore, i don't want you to blame anyone, I just want to show you where maybe things happened that didn't go to plan that's all x

[gingerbreadgirl]

No it's ok you haven't crossed any lines I appreciate your thoughts on this, thank you x

I will give some thought to what you've said but I genuinely don't think I had an insecure attachment. Weirdly I think I have only really become insecure about my parents since becoming an adult. Since becoming an adult I can see there are definitely issues there and my family causes me a lot of anxiety for reasons that aren't really their fault. 

[paradoxer]

2 hours ago, Gemma7 said:

Why does it matter if you're a bad person? What does it change?

Great cognitive question. It totally subverts the disorder. 

[Gemma7]

14 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

No it's ok you haven't crossed any lines I appreciate your thoughts on this, thank you x

Good, I'm relieved, i was worried x

 

15 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

Weirdly I think I have only really become insecure about my parents since becoming an adult. Since becoming an adult I can see there are definitely issues there and my family causes me a lot of anxiety for reasons that aren't really their fault. 

So what changed? Where has this feeling of risk of rejection/abandonment come from? Your relationships seem anxiously attached now at least. And what about when you had this feeling as a child, how can wanting to make sure of being good then, not have been driven from feeling insecure then. 

[gingerbreadgirl]

4 minutes ago, Gemma7 said:

So what changed? Where has this feeling of risk of rejection/abandonment come from? Your relationships seem anxiously attached now at least. And what about when you had this feeling as a child, how can wanting to make sure of being good then, not have been driven from feeling insecure then. 

Well... Honestly I think things really changed when I came out to my mum and the reaction was not good. That really affected me and I felt like I'd finally told the truth after years of keeping it a secret and I got rejected or at least it felt like that. Things have never been the same since, not for me anyway. 

I don't think all my relationships are anxious. I don't generally feel anxious about my partner. But I do feel anxious about my family and quite a lot of my friends. I feel like I hide the real me to keep them on board. 

As a child I felt bad about myself because I was a loser/bullied at school and I think that affected my opinion of myself more than anything my parents did. 

I am taking on board what you've said. It feels like quite a big thing to consider. I have been googling it now and a lot of what is described does point to my current behaviour I must admit. 

I also don't want to get sucked into a loop of analysing it. I guess even if it does come from my childhood I can't change that now. 

Thank you I always really appreciate your input x 

[Gemma7]

8 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

Well... Honestly I think things really changed when I came out to my mum and the reaction was not good. That really affected me and I felt like I'd finally told the truth after years of keeping it a secret and I got rejected or at least it felt like that. Things have never been the same since, not for me anyway. 

That must have been really hard 

Yes that would affect you, it would affect anyone. It would definitely reinforce a belief that rejection was likely and could definitely make you more on guard in the future. 

11 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

I feel like I hide the real me to keep them on board. 

If you in any way hide the real you, it's bound to cause you problems. It builds a belief that your actions are necessary to hold on to relationships and stops you finding out nothing would happen if you let yourself be free. 

 

13 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

I also don't want to get sucked into a loop of analysing it. I guess even if it does come from my childhood I can't change that now.

You can control if you overanalyse this, have faith that when you want to stop, you can and you will. Practise using the right stop mechanism (a psychology term I've read about and think i understand). Mine is think till I'm dead pretty much lol, other people's stop mechanism is think till you feel like stopping. Practise the latter, I'm rubbish, but i practise And if it's overwhelming, put it to one side for a bit. But yes, you can't change your childhood, and who would, you're a pretty nice woman you know

[Gemma7]

If you look at it like this, let's say you're anxiously attached now, you've decided for whatever reason that being 'bad' is the biggest risk to your relationships (it could be that you might be green skinned), your solution is to make sure you're not bad with reassurance, checking etc (if it was being green it might be you would check your skin, compare your skin colour to other people's etc). You find reasons that are based on your own biases why you think you might be bad, feel worried, compare more, and find more reasons to believe it. This builds your belief, just like any OCD problem. The belief is this feeling you have that you can’t get rid of. It's powerful and illogical, but you believe it.

Your problem looks like one of being bad, but it isn't, that's just what you've assigned as the biggest risk. Your problem is fear of loss, rejection, not being loved. The debate about whether you are good is a red herring, being good is only about staying safe for you. You are neither good nor bad, you are someone who feel's unsafe. See any working out if you are good as a compulsion based on an arbitrary importance you have given it. Look into how to show yourself compassion, and look at how you act in relationships that might undermine your feelings of being secure. 

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thanks for this gemma. I really appreciate it. There is a whole load of stuff here that really resonates with me. I actually got a bit teary reading this last night!  In fact I discussed some of what you said with my partner and she was not exactly surprised, she seemed to think you've hit the nail on the head. It makes me feel uncomfortable acknowledging it could be true because I think my mum is a wonderful person, truly, and she sacrificed a lot to give me a good start in life. But whatever the cause I can't just ignore that there is a problem that won't go away. 

Thank you and I hope you're OK and having a nice weekend x

Edited April 28, 2019 by gingerbreadgirl

[Angst]

Gemma has introduced a very significant term into the debate ‘insecure attachment’ and the idea that attachments in the past affect attachments now. Hence Gemma’s question ‘what about when you had this feeling as a child’. It is the world of attachment theory  which is hugely influential theory and set of empirical research in developmental psychology and is used in the body of work known as attachment therapy.

It is a extremely useful body of work in helping us identify our core beliefs. In the same way that the works of Gilbert with his ideas of compassion therapy have been incorporated into CBT for OCD as witnessed by the book ‘CBT for OCD’ and the idea of locating the source of core beliefs, it would not surprise me if elements of attachment therapy were used in OCD treatment.

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Angst

[Guest]

Hi GBG, when I read your first post I felt like I was reading something I had written. I didn't reply to you because I thought I would get shot down by the forum (probably correctly, because I'm not qualified to make judgements) for saying that your description doesn't sound like OCD to me, what it does sound like is a problem of love, and the thing about love is that is not a strictly rational, so CBT with its focus on rationality is not always a great solution. I hope I'm not intruding, or upsetting you, or making too many links to my own experience - the reality is I don't really know you, so your actual experience may quite different to mine - but I know that whenever a therapist would mention the word love to me i would burst into tears.

I received CBT for OCD from the NHS, and when I had finished the CBT sessions (which was very good quality and I really clicked with the psychologist) I was referred by the team for psychotherapy. I refused to go, partly I have to admit because of the advice I received on this forum, but mainly because I point blank refused to do what felt like an act of blaming others for my problems and what also felt like an act of betrayal to my loving parents. But this was a mistake, because without it I couldn't engage with the things I had learnt in CBT. I needed to tackle the underlying feeling of being unloveable first, because otherwise when I stopped the compulsions I would be overwhelmed by this horrendous feeling of black loneliness, because I was using the compulsions to ensure I could be loved, so without them I felt forsaken (I know that is a religious word, but because in a Christian based society love and god are seen as one and the same thing, feeling unloved can take on an immense and religious feeling which doesn't translate well into secular language). 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Guest
Typo

[taurean]

I have always thought we needed to be careful to watch for other psychological factors alongside OCD, not just assume that everything is OCD, so it's good that this dialogue is taking place. 

My sister's problems were originally diagnosed (by a psychiatrist) as stemming from problems relating with our mother - and there were issues there for her - but, singularly unhelpfully, the psychiatrist missed the OCD from which she was also suffering, so she didn't get treated for that for some time. 

Great spot Gemma and well done Wren for joining in and explaining what your experience has been. 

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thanks @Wren, @Angst, and @taurean for your really helpful input. I have been thinking a lot this morning about everything that's been said here. I definitely do think OCD is a big part of this and I definitely do compulsions a lot. But I have long thought that OCD is a perhaps a consequence, or a coping mechanism, for something else.

I'm not sure I'd describe it as a problem with love as such as I think I have a lot of love in my life, I love my partner and I don't see myself as unlovable except in moments of extreme stress.  But there is definitely an issue with how I see myself, one that goes beyond OCD. I feel chronically guilty about all kinds of things. I think in younger years I turned to alcohol to numb this issue and now I use compulsions but the problem is the same. 

As uncomfortable as this is to acknowledge, I feel that there is a lot of truth in all that's been said here, so thank you x 

[Avo]

Some really interesting and insightful things on this thread GBG, it does sound to me that you have little compassion for yourself at times. I know we all get down on ourselves at times but you do seem to put a lot of importance on you relationship with your Mum, which is natural however it does seem that it has possibly too bigger influence on you. 

I cant pretend to know what it is like to have to come out to a parent but I can imagine it takes a lot of courage and I imagine it took a lot for you to do it. It does sound like this was a key turning point - at least for yourself.

I don't really know you except from our exchanges on here, you seem to me a nice person to me. Hope your ok?

Edited April 28, 2019 by Avo

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thanks avo  feeling a bit churned up but just watching the London marathon and enjoying that. Hope you're OK? X 

[Avo]

Bit of focusing on something else is not a bad Idea - I am watching the marathon too, feeling rather lazy watching these finely tuned athletes do their stuff. Hope your day goes ok, the weather looks largely fine, why not get yourself outside for a bit? enjoy the sunshine?

[gingerbreadgirl]

Haha I know I feel super lazy!! Getting outside sounds like a good plan  hope you have a good day too. 

[Guest]

Sorry GBG, in my clumsy way I was meaning 'love' in the context of attachment theory, rather than love from friends, partners etc. I'm not knowledgable on psychology theory but I think people need to form a stable attachment (ie a bond of love) to a caregiver in childhood to be able to form a stable (and I emphasis the word stable) sense of self worth (ie seeing yourself worthy of love, so that you don't believe that making a mistake brands you as evil). But again, I don't know you and I'm not an expert, so I feel uncomfortable suggesting any advice to you. I was referred for psychotherapy by a team consisting of an psychologist, psychiatrist and occupational health worker after they had been treating me with CBT for a whole year, so the referral for psychotherapy was not something that was undertaken lightly and it was the correct decision for my particular circumstances. I really don't think people with ocd should refer themselves for psychotherapy without expert advice first, it's just that it worries me that sometimes on the forum I think that ocd gets treated as a definitive diagnosis which has a definitive treatment, which isn't always the case for everyone and I would hate for someone not to get the treatment they need. 

[gingerbreadgirl]

57 minutes ago, Wren said:

Sorry GBG, in my clumsy way I was meaning 'love' in the context of attachment theory, rather than love from friends, partners etc. I'm not knowledgable on psychology theory but I think people need to form a stable attachment (ie a bond of love) to a caregiver in childhood to be able to form a stable (and I emphasis the word stable) sense of self worth (ie seeing yourself worthy of love, so that you don't believe that making a mistake brands you as evil). But again, I don't know you and I'm not an expert, so I feel uncomfortable suggesting any advice to you. I was referred for psychotherapy by a team consisting of an psychologist, psychiatrist and occupational health worker after they had been treating me with CBT for a whole year, so the referral for psychotherapy was not something that was undertaken lightly and it was the correct decision for my particular circumstances. I really don't think people with ocd should refer themselves for psychotherapy without expert advice first, it's just that it worries me that sometimes on the forum I think that ocd gets treated as a definitive diagnosis which has a definitive treatment, which isn't always the case for everyone and I would hate for someone not to get the treatment they need. 

Hi Wren

You've got nothing to apologise for and i think you put it beautifully  i know exactly what you mean about OCD sometimes existing in a much broader context which needs to be considered rather than just having a simple A to B treatment.  

I only feel uncomfortable agreeing that this is to do with having an unstable attachment because it feels I am being disloyal to my parents (in particular my mum) who are both incredibly kind and caring people.  if they knew i was even thinking this kind of thing they would be so surprised and hurt. Which makes me feel terrible. 

I think the input from you and many others on this thread has really helped me see things differently, that maybe, just maybe I'm not evil or wrong or whatever, maybe I am just in pain.  

I often think this forum is like getting hundreds of pounds worth of therapy for free, and all from kind strangers who just want to help.  it is really remarkable so thank you   

I hope you're doing OK and having a nice weekend x

 

 

[Gemma7]

Hope you are doing ok today GBG, I'm glad some of what I said has helped.

It's going to take time to adjust to all this, so don't expect to feel different than you do. Try to remember that two things can be true at once, that you have loving caring parents and that you are anxiously attached. Also, it's hard to form a secure attachment if you don't have one, that can be true for parents too. It might be that your parents were insecurely attached when they were young, so despite their best efforts, couldn't teach what they didn't know

[gingerbreadgirl]

Thanks gemma, I really really appreciate  it. Honestly a lot of the stuff you've said to me over the years has really transformed my understanding so thank you I am really grateful x 

I am still feeling a bit naff today tbh. I've realised that I tend to ricochet between completely blaming myself for everything and blaming someone else for everything, with no middle ground. So I can feel self-pitying one moment then really angry and resentful the next. I feel like I maybe wouldn't feel like that if it was an attachment thing, like I would just always blame myself if that makes sense? 

Hope you're doing OK and having a nice afternoon x 

[taurean]

1 hour ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

 

I think the input from you and many others on this thread has really helped me see things differently, that maybe, just maybe I'm not evil or wrong or whatever, maybe I am just in pain.  

I often think this forum is like getting hundreds of pounds worth of therapy for free, and all from kind strangers who just want to help.  it is really remarkable so thank you   

I absolutely agree with this. Best thing I ever found on the Internet. 

And as one who was able to get private seriously-skilled CBT therapy for OCD, including latterly mindfulness-based CBT for OCD - initially through health insurance then, when that benefit was exhausted, self-funded - I know how fortunate I was, and here I can share what I learned in order to help others. 

Brilliant forums and my favourite charity

[Guest OCDhavenobrain]

Just wanted to add my cents to the discussion. Even if I already think you guys think what I think, but yea well... 

I see all of it as rumination. And I would certainly not advice anything else than leaving it alone.

That was all from me. Just wanted to add my thoughts on it. I really hope you can stop analyzing it, I really don't think you ever will get satisified.

Edited April 28, 2019 by OCDhavenobrain

[Gemma7]

40 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

I am still feeling a bit naff today tbh. I've realised that I tend to ricochet between completely blaming myself for everything and blaming someone else for everything, with no middle ground. So I can feel self-pitying one moment then really angry and resentful the next. I feel like I maybe wouldn't feel like that if it was an attachment thing, like I would just always blame myself if that makes sense? 

Firstly you blame yourself a lot, you are very good at it. Secondly, why are you telling yourself how you should feel. This is guilt speaking, checking if it's an attachment problem because you feel bad blaming other people. You know what happens when you blame other people for a bit, you remove some responsibility from your shoulders and have a minute to breathe, also nothing happens, no one gets hurt by thoughts.

You also aren't going to believe (feel) it is an attachment problem quickly because you have spent a long time telling yourself you are the problem. It's fine to be flitting back and forth, that happened to me. You need time to adjust. This isn't a quick fix. Once you have some time to adjust, your feelings will be less on the surface and you'll be able to look at things in a more practical way. 

Remember, to stop looking to be sure of this theory. We are all different, there are no rules. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Gemma7

[gingerbreadgirl]

OK that makes sense, thank you x