Back again

[dksea]

On 18/05/2019 at 07:37, Phil19 said:

it’s not uncommon for me to use a whole roll when I go to the toilet.

Well theres your first problem.  That is WAY too much TP used per roll unless wherever you live they sell incredibly small rolls.  A single roll of TP should be lasting a male with regular bowel health around a week.  Using an entire roll in a single sitting isn't normal, even if you had significant bowel problems.  Either you have something going on that needs medical attention or, most likely, you are allowing your OCD compulsions to require way too much TP use.  
 

On 18/05/2019 at 08:04, Phil19 said:

I really don’t know how I will break this cycle I mean touching it won’t be the hard bit. The hard hit will be controlling the anxiety and disturbing thoughts I have by touching it. The feeling it’s ruined it’s just awful it feels like my world has ended. I need help because it’s surely not normal to feel this bad due to a door handle or whatever else it is?

No it is not normal in general to feel this way, but its fairly normal to feel this way when you have OCD.  But the longer you give in to the compulsions, the longer you avoid doing something about it, the worse it will become.

I'm sorry, but the only way out is through.  You are going to have to get hit with the anxiety and the feeling that things are 'ruined'.  Unpleasant? Absolutely.  Doable? Absolutely.  Medication might help make it easier to push through, if you are willing to go that path, but its still going to involve doing the things you are avoiding and experiencing the anxiety and "ruined" feeling.  There just is no other way.  Unfortunately you have dug yourself a bit of a hole and it'll take some time to dig out of.  Fortunately its absolutely possible and there are people who will help you through it.  You just have to choose to do it.

[Phil19]

I have been feeling awful about the handle I have been planning on now I get a new door handle. I mean it’s not expensive but the risk is she touched the bin and does it again. My partner said how I forgot about the time she picked up dog poop and tried my door handle. I am too scared to touch my iPod after touching my phone I fear there is blocked toilet germs on my phone. 

[PolarBear]

Touch them anyway, Phil. It's what you need to do. Over and over again.

[seekingERPnorthwest]

Get your GP to refer you to AIS in Dundee. If GP says no, you may need to change GPs. For advice, call or email AIS ASAP and ask for Karen Walker (great nurse). Or, if you fancy 12 week residential stay in Kent, google ADRU SLAM.

[dksea]

1 hour ago, Phil19 said:

I mean it’s not expensive but the risk is she touched the bin and does it again.

There IS no real risk.  The risk is an illusion.  You need to stop accepting the lie that there is a risk here and decide not to do anything about it, no matter how anxious you feel.  Its a false alarm, its a lie.  Every time you march to the beat of that lie you are making yourself worse.  The only one who can stop this is you.
 

1 hour ago, Phil19 said:

I am too scared to touch my iPod after touching my phone I fear there is blocked toilet germs on my phone. 

Make yourself touch it.  Being scared is uncomfortable, but it won't actually hurt you.  There are probably all kinds of germs on your phone, or your iPod or. your hands right now.  The absolute cleanliness you are trying to accomplish is a LIE.  Its already far too late, in fact it was never possible to begin with.  It is IMPOSSIBLE to remain "clean" like you are trying to.  If you keep trying you will get worse.  If you stop trying you will get better.  

Thats it, thats what you have to decide, do you want to get better or worse?

Touch the iPod.  Touch it over and over and over and over. Thats what you have to do to start getting better.

[Phil19]

2 hours ago, dksea said:

There IS no real risk.  The risk is an illusion.  You need to stop accepting the lie that there is a risk here and decide not to do anything about it, no matter how anxious you feel.  Its a false alarm, its a lie.  Every time you march to the beat of that lie you are making yourself worse.  The only one who can stop this is you.
 

Make yourself touch it.  Being scared is uncomfortable, but it won't actually hurt you.  There are probably all kinds of germs on your phone, or your iPod or. your hands right now.  The absolute cleanliness you are trying to accomplish is a LIE.  Its already far too late, in fact it was never possible to begin with.  It is IMPOSSIBLE to remain "clean" like you are trying to.  If you keep trying you will get worse.  If you stop trying you will get better.  

Thats it, thats what you have to decide, do you want to get better or worse?

Touch the iPod.  Touch it over and over and over and over. Thats what you have to do to start getting better.

Yes that’s it I agree but to be honest I don’t care about the germs, I know phones have lots. I don’t fear harm from the germs. I asked myself deep down what’s troubling me and all I can say is it’s a perfectionism issue I dislike that someone touched the bin it’s like a bad song no matter how much I hate the song I can’t like what happened. It’s not the germs that’s the issue it’s the thought patterns. This belief that something is ruined it’s quite wide spread because I mentioned over the past few years there has been many things “forever contaminated”.

So yeah it’s lasted years which makes me fear recovery will only go so far. I say that because I never replaced my front door when I had the letter box issue. No matter how much I think about it nothing makes me happy or content with that letter box. We have established we can’t stop the thoughts.

So whats the solution here? Is my aim just to avoid the expensive cost of replacing? Is it possibly to neutralise these thoughts so I no longer care? My head says but “Joe blogs” door is cleaner because perhaps he never touched a bin? To answer it myself I believe I can avoid replacing so I save money which is great. But the thought is like a seed in my head this forever contaminated belief it’s one I don’t see often in CBT books. I can’t quite figure out why an item becomes “forever ruined”. Could it be the opposite of hoarding here where I am throwing away good stuff? I mean how can you possibly say anything to change how I feel about a blocked toilet tissue toilet water, wet soggy paper touching a wheelie bin maybe years later! But her touching my door whether it be after dog poop or this how can that door be clean? I believe even industrial cleaners wouldn’t make me feel better about the door it’s a simple belief that I need replace so is there some sort of treatment in ocd for the opposite or hoarding?

[dksea]

2 minutes ago, Phil19 said:

So yeah it’s lasted years which makes me fear recovery will only go so far.

Your recovery will go nowhere if you don't do something to recover.  Worrying about how far it will go doesn't really solve any problem, because you don't know how far you can recover until you try.  If you put in the work, if you dedicate yourself to recovery I see no reason to believe you can not get to the point where you can lead a normal life.
 

4 minutes ago, Phil19 said:

I can’t quite figure out why an item becomes “forever ruined”

It doesn't matter why, you don't have to figure out why.  You just have to stop doing the behaviors that reinforce the fear for when you do get that "forever ruined" feeling.

 

5 minutes ago, Phil19 said:

so is there some sort of treatment in ocd for the opposite or hoarding?

Yes, and its the same as every other treatment for OCD, CBT.  I understand its difficult for you to hear, but its not going to change.  To get better you have to do the opposite of what OCD tells you to do.  You have to touch the things you fear are contaminated forever and then do nothing in response.  No rumination, no replacing, no other compulsions.  Obviously at first you won't be able to do that for very long.  But the goal is to improve over time.  Touch a contaminated item and then wait 10 minutes before you do some kind of compulsion (washing, ruminating, etc.). Then see if you can wait another 10 minutes, etc.  Next time see if you can wait longer.  Or see if you can touch it more times.  Again, improvment over time.  You have dug yourself in a deep hole, you aren't going to magically appear at the top.  You need to climb back out.  CBT tells you which direction to climb and offers some tools to help you climb, but you have to climb.  Thats the only way out of the hole.  There's no other way.  Medication can help, make the climb a little easier perhaps, but you still need to do the CBT. You still need to do the work.  Its not easy, but it is simple.

[paradoxer]

Phil, you have to remember that everything in the world is 'contaminated', and thus not contaminated at all. Don't try to be special. (Hint: It won't work).

[taurean]

5 minutes ago, paradoxer said:

everything in the world is 'contaminated', and thus not contaminated at all.

Really like that saying. 

The contamination OCD sufferer sees exaggerated threat in minor or nil risks of a very focused nature (e. g. Poo or semen germs or whatever). 

Everyone else doesn't. No alarm bells, no anxiety, no disorder. 

Edited May 21, 2019 by taurean

[Phil19]

29 minutes ago, taurean said:

Really like that saying. 

The contamination OCD sufferer sees exaggerated threat in minor or nil risks of a very focused nature (e. g. Poo or semen germs or whatever). 

Everyone else doesn't. No alarm bells, no anxiety, no disorder. 

This is what I find difficult to understand how people can touch poop or anything dirty and not care. Not wash hands after a toilet. If I was to think about all that contamination? Not great but I have moved out my parents a few years now and I see when you have a house stuff happens it gets dirty there always seems a be a “memory” of something that got dirty. But when I move into a new house I get that buzz everything new with no thoughts of contamination. But yes I don’t get why people are so tolerant about dirty germs yet ocd don’t feel that way but saying that many people suffer ocd but are happy with germs and don’t care. Does psychology hold all the answers to these questions?

[Guest]

Hi Phil, am I right in understanding that you are not scared of the harm that germs cause, but that you get upset by the way germs make you feel? And that you can sometimes get that feeling just by thinking about germs without even having to touch them? Is that right?

[taurean]

Well people do wash hands after the loo, though some don't. 

And we don't fear poo, just clean it up when necessary. 

I can't stop people not washing their hands after the loo. I deplore it, but don't focus on and obsess about it. 

[dksea]

6 hours ago, Phil19 said:

This is what I find difficult to understand how people can touch poop or anything dirty and not care. Not wash hands after a toilet. If I was to think about all that contamination? 

Because unlike you, their sense of risk is not broken. To you, because of OCD, you experience anxiety at these thoughts that other people just don’t. As a result, your life is made significantly worse in ways that there’s is not. 

If you want to change that, if you want to change how your brain evaluates and responds to that risk, you can, using CBT. 

Or you can continue to spend your time dwelling on it, avoiding recovery, continuing compulsions, digging a deeper hole. 

Your choice. 

[Ashley]

7 hours ago, Phil19 said:

This is what I find difficult to understand how people can touch poop or anything dirty and not care. Not wash hands after a toilet. If I was to think about all that contamination? Not great but I have moved out my parents a few years now and I see when you have a house stuff happens it gets dirty there always seems a be a “memory” of something that got dirty. But when I move into a new house I get that buzz everything new with no thoughts of contamination. But yes I don’t get why people are so tolerant about dirty germs yet ocd don’t feel that way but saying that many people suffer ocd but are happy with germs and don’t care. Does psychology hold all the answers to these questions?

As part of my recovery from OCD I deliberately used the loo and didn't wash my hands for a few days, until I no longer had anxiety around the issue. I then had to go a step further and put my hand into toilet water, without washing my hands... this actually helped me achieve the first exercise too.  

Did I want to do it? No!    Did I like doing that? No!   But did I need to do it to overcome OCD? Yes!

By doing these exercises, and accepting why I needed to do them I can now use a public loo. I still get anxious when using a public loo, but that anxiety lasts all of 30-60 seconds.  These days I prefer to wash my hands after using a loo, but if there is no soap it's not the end of the world and I get on with my day.  

[paradoxer]

On 21/05/2019 at 00:55, taurean said:

Really like that saying. 

The contamination OCD sufferer sees exaggerated threat in minor or nil risks of a very focused nature (e. g. Poo or semen germs or whatever). 

Everyone else doesn't. No alarm bells, no anxiety, no disorder. 

Cheers taurean. 

[Angst]

On 21/05/2019 at 01:41, seekingERPnorthwest said:

Get your GP to refer you to AIS in Dundee. If GP says no, you may need to change GPs. For advice, call or email AIS ASAP and ask for Karen Walker (great nurse). Or, if you fancy 12 week residential stay in Kent, google ADRU SLAM.

Think that this is really good advice. As Hal said in your previous thread you should get some professional advice from NHS specialists. Or, as I have said before, you need to clarify things with your psychiatrist.

[seekingERPnorthwest]

Thank you, Angst

[Phil19]

I have the tainted worry again. In in my relationship I spoke to another women and my partner found the message I said stuff I never meant in the message and was keen on someone but in truth wasn’t keen so I fear my relationship is tainted and my partner believes what I put? I worry it’s tainted like the letter box? 

[PolarBear]

So?

[Phil19]

6 hours ago, PolarBear said:

So?

I worry the relationship is tainted like the front door. Course when you have been with someone a while mistakes happen but I try to maintain perfection. 

[taurean]

1 hour ago, Phil19 said:

I worry the relationship is tainted like the front door. Course when you have been with someone a while mistakes happen but I try to maintain perfection. 

Perfectionism is not a good trait. And can easily become an obsessional theme. 

At work, when the youngsters were spending too much time trying to make a report perfect, I would point out there were plenty of other reasons why our bid might fail - price, personalities, not liking insurer or whatever. 

A report that looked good and did the job was all that was needed - not the best possible report. 

I mentored them with many other things along the learning journey - but this element will have saved them lots of time and effort. 

[Phil19]

1 hour ago, taurean said:

Perfectionism is not a good trait. And can easily become an obsessional theme. 

At work, when the youngsters were spending too much time trying to make a report perfect, I would point out there were plenty of other reasons why our bid might fail - price, personalities, not liking insurer or whatever. 

A report that looked good and did the job was all that was needed - not the best possible report. 

I mentored them with many other things along the learning journey - but this element will have saved them lots of time and effort. 

I definitely have a problem with perfectionism. How can I deal with this? It’s defo an ocd form I have.

[dksea]

3 hours ago, Phil19 said:

I definitely have a problem with perfectionism. How can I deal with this? It’s defo an ocd form I have.

Stop trying to be perfect. Make the decision that you won’t try to maintain these impossible standards anymore. Then stick with it even when it makes you uncomfortable. Change won’t happen overnight, so don’t expect it to.