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Hello,

I'm glad I found this forum, as I really have a hard time. I can imagine there are already some topics about existential OCD but I just can't get out of this and I believe I got stuck forever.

As I am not a native English speaker I'd like to excuse any language mistakes in advance.

Since I was I child I am dealing with intrusive thoughts a lot. Back then I struggled with questions of death, beeing alone and eternal darkness after the death. During my puberty it got quite silent. Then, when I got 21 I got really harsh anxiety and panic issues due to weed and alcohol. This accompanied me the following years, but I learned to cope and the Escitalopram I was taking got me to a point where life was ok again. One year ago I accidentally was reading an article about solipsism. This hit me like a dagger in the heart. I somehow managed to get almost rid of that obsessive thought in about 2weeks and it hit me just once a week. But I managed to whipe them of quickly. The problem always was, that it followed me like a shadow. Two weeks ago it should break all over me again. I had a stressful time in university and was invited for a new job after completing my master's degree. This was the moment when these existential thoughts came back like a hammer hitting my head. I really have the worst time in my life since this moment. I even canceled the future job due to the struggle I am in. 

I am constantly thinking about this life beeing just an illusion and everything is meaningless because of that. Since I cannot disprove this fact it seems like this feeling will stay for ever. I got a meeting with a counselor and she said, that deep burried anxieties of beeing alone are the issue for all that. But I am going to see her only once a week and it feels like between the appointments I spend 24/7 beeing obsessed by this feeling of eternal dread. Even if I make some progress in this therapy, my brain always brings in the thought of this beeing completely useless, because it isn't real and this diminishes any progress I make. I even started Escitalopram 10 mg again one weak ago, but it I don't feel better, maybe even worse since taking it. 

I need some coping strategies for this and I did not find effective ones yet. Is it even possible to cope with it, even if my brain always brings in thoughts that are dementing the sense of these coping mechanisms? I really go nuts right now, maybe you have some supporting words for me?

Thanks for reading 

 Phil

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16 hours ago, badsidejoe said:

 I need some coping strategies for this and I did not find effective ones yet. Is it even possible to cope with it, even if my brain always brings in thoughts that are dementing the sense of these coping mechanisms? I really go nuts right now, maybe you have some supporting words for me?

Hi. Yes unpleasant existential thoughts are horrible.  I had these for ages.  This fantastic article from Steven Phillipson about Pure- O  lists coping strategies at the end.  https://www.ocdonline.com/rethinking-the-unthinkable

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One way you can tackle this is using a powerful CBT therapist's tool called the behavioural experiment. 

Try it out. 

You could put down as theory B the fact that you have labelled this "existential OCD" , that you are on an OCD forum and that you have found one (of a few we have seen here) fellow sufferers. 

This extract from a piece I previously wrote should help. 

The key is that theory A says our fears are true and not OCD , theory B that we are only worrying that it could be true so it's just OCD. 

One of the tools the therapist can use is to introduce to the patient the concept of evaluating theory A - the "OCD'd" set of circumstances being real- against theory B - the rational version of events which says it's  OCD.

Here's a brief example of this in action, applied to the concept of contamination.

Liz is convinced that her office environment is dirty,and she will get contaminated with germs, become ill and could die.
.
She spends a large amount of time every morning cleaning and decontaminating her workspace and environs before she can do any work.

For Liz, the theories might be explained as:

 

My workspace environment is contaminated with dirt and germs theory A.

Our workspaces are simply dirty 
but cleaned overnight by the cleaners - theory B. 

If I don’t clean and decontaminate
With powerful chemicals I will catch a disease and I might die.Who will bring up my young son? . Theory A. 

No-one in the firm has been taken ill
From contamination at their desks.Theory B. 

Theory A shows the OCD at work , seeding thethought and magnify and catastrophizing it.

Theory B shows the pragmatic rational approach.

When Liz is shown theory B with the conclusive evidence that no-one has been taken ill fromcontamination, she can see that theory A is what it is – OCD and consequent compulsive rituals she is feeling obliged by the OCD to undertake to make her “safe”.

So theory B is used to undermine the power of the OCD , and aid the sufferer to then enter into a hierarchic gradual exposure to the intrusions via exposure and response prevention.

Edited by taurean
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13 hours ago, taurean said:

One way you can tackle this is using a powerful CBT therapist's tool called the behavioural experiment. 

Try it out. 

You could put down as theory B the fact that you have labelled this "existential OCD" , that you are on an OCD forum and that you have found one (of a few we have seen here) fellow sufferers. 

This extract from a piece I previously wrote should help. 

The key is that theory A says our fears are true and not OCD , theory B that we are only worrying that it could be true so it's just OCD. 

One of the tools the therapist can use is to introduce to the patient the concept of evaluating theory A - the "OCD'd" set of circumstances being real- against theory B - the rational version of events which says it's  OCD.

Here's a brief example of this in action, applied to the concept of contamination.

Liz is convinced that her office environment is dirty,and she will get contaminated with germs, become ill and could die.
.
She spends a large amount of time every morning cleaning and decontaminating her workspace and environs before she can do any work.

For Liz, the theories might be explained as:

 

My workspace environment is contaminated with dirt and germs theory A.

Our workspaces are simply dirty 
but cleaned overnight by the cleaners - theory B. 

If I don’t clean and decontaminate
With powerful chemicals I will catch a disease and I might die.Who will bring up my young son? . Theory A. 

No-one in the firm has been taken ill
From contamination at their desks.Theory B. 

Theory A shows the OCD at work , seeding thethought and magnify and catastrophizing it.

Theory B shows the pragmatic rational approach.

When Liz is shown theory B with the conclusive evidence that no-one has been taken ill fromcontamination, she can see that theory A is what it is – OCD and consequent compulsive rituals she is feeling obliged by the OCD to undertake to make her “safe”.

So theory B is used to undermine the power of the OCD , and aid the sufferer to then enter into a hierarchic gradual exposure to the intrusions via exposure and response prevention.

Thanks for that!That strategy sounds interesting but it's hard for me to establish. Especially when I declare theory B as a state of OCD the problem Ist ,that I still think this is incurable. And this let me fall back into the patterns.

23 hours ago, Phil19 said:

I can relate most of what you said I have been through the exact same thoughts before. 

 

13 hours ago, Carooba Manooba said:

Hi. Yes unpleasant existential thoughts are horrible.  I had these for ages.  This fantastic article from Steven Phillipson about Pure- O  lists coping strategies at the end.  https://www.ocdonline.com/rethinking-the-unthinkable

So did you make it out of this eventually?

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49 minutes ago, badsidejoe said:

Thanks for that!That strategy sounds interesting but it's hard for me to establish. Especially when I declare theory B as a state of OCD the problem Ist ,that I still think this is incurable. And this let me fall back into the patterns.

 

So did you make it out of this eventually?

I have other ocd stuff on my mind so I soon forgot about it but it does crop back up occasionally. The key is to not think about it in detail. 

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OCD is curable or, if not that, manageable. 

It's all about getting the right level of therapy, and us putting in the work to change our thinking and behaviours. 

So the thought that it is incurable is, effectively, another OCD falsehood. 

Edited by taurean
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57 minutes ago, taurean said:

OCD is curable or, if not that, manageable. 

It's all about getting the right level of therapy, and us putting in the work to change our thinking and behaviours. 

So the thought that it is incurable is, effectively, another OCD falsehood. 

Thanks for your replies. The last three days, my obsessions and the resulting anxiety went through the roof, to the state where I nearly believed all the weird thoughts zapping into my mind. I am mile's away from reality due to the stress I'm feeling. I'd really love to apply these techniques you are suggesting, but it's so hard to stay focused and not to trip out after a few seconds again. At first I had a short moment when I got your therapeutical strategy where I clearly could divide the negative imagination I'm thinking of from the fact that this is all due to OCD. This kind of progress is always followed by the thought kicking it, which suggests, that everything I'm trying isn't real and therefore it makes no sense. I experience this feeling at my counsellor as well. Sure this a false thought, that should be labeled as a "Theory A" thought, but it is so intense, that any progress instantly melts away in the eternal dark hole in my head. It feels like my unconscious mind wants to hold me back from finding a way out of this dilemma. Maybe I am just not strong enough to resist this intense emotional bombardment.

Do you think the higher dosage of Escitalopram, which I take for 4 days now could fuel these feelings? As some kind of initial side effect?

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Hi @badsidejoe, welcome to the forums.  I'm sorry you are having problems, but you are not alone, almost everyone here is also someone who struggles with OCD in their lives.  I hope you find it helpful to be here.

One of the main problems with is OCD is it makes us feel like we have to be 100% sure about things to feel "ok".  With existential OCD, the sufferer feels like they have to be 100% sure that the world is real in order to move on, in order to live their life.  Unfortunately it is not possible to be 100% sure about ANYTHING.  For most people this is not a problem, they feel "OK" without being 100% sure.  For OCD sufferers it is much harder.  To feel 100% sure OCD sufferers will try many things, compulsions.  A common compulsion is rumination, thinking about a topic over and over, trying to "solve" the thoughts like a puzzle.  This does not work, because OCD continues to spread doubt.  No matter how hard we try we can't get to 100%, so we keep suffering.

To learn to overcome OCD you don't need to be 100% sure, you can try and try and try and you will fail.
To overcome OCD you have to learn to not care about noting being 100% sure.  You have to learn to accept doubt.

For example, your fear is that the world is not real.  This is a question that is impossible to answer.  You could spend the rest of your life trying, and you would not succeed.  Scholars have debated this question and questions like it for hundreds, maybe thousands of years.  Are we all a dream?  Is this all an illusion?  Is it all a computer simulation? etc.  No matter how hard or long you try, you can't answer the question.  The good news is you don't HAVE to answer the question.  Think about all the billions of people going about their lives, not thinking about that question.  If the question was necessary for life, certainly they all would be asking it right??  Instead, they do other things.  Get born, grow up, have jobs, maybe children, etc. etc.  Real, simulation, dream, etc. they will never know.  They live anyway because there is no real option.

OCD is lying to you.  Its telling you these thoughts are important and you have to worry about them, you have to solve them.  But you don't.  You can ignore the question completely if you want.  The difficult part is you will continue to feel anxiety at first, which is unpleasant, and the natural instinct kicks in of wanting to feel "normal" so you are tempted to do compulsions to help you feel more "normal".  Maybe they work for a little while, but not for long, and worse, they pull you further in to the OCD trap.  Overcoming OCD means fighting the urge to do what OCD wants.  It means accepting that you can't answer these questions 100% and believing that you don't have to in order to live a fulfilling life.  

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@dksea

Thanks a lot! This completely makes sense to me, at least when I manage to get out of the thought carousel for a moment. Do you think it get's easier to establish this way of thinking with time? Do I get used to the OCD chattering? I think the side effects of the Escitalopram throw me into a state, where there's nearly any chance to step back and see my problem as an OCD related problem. Yesterday I managed to successfully do some meditation before going to sleep and to see things happening from some kind of distance. That was a great relief. The problem is, that it seems like I'm loosing the progress when I sleep. As soon as I wake up in the morning, the thoughts kick back in with all it's emotional power. There is an old film with Bill Murray where he wakes up everyday at the same place and at the same time over and over again, trying to achieve some progress over the day, only to see it reseted over night. Don't know the english name of this film. That's what I feel like. Yesterday afternoon I was suffering so bad, that I nearly drove to the next psychiatric institution. But fortunately I could convince my self not to. Sometimes when it's really hard to manage, I nearly believe my OCD thoughts. I have the huge fear, that I could believe these questions and loose the grip completely. Some times it feels like I actually believe in this thoughts allready, this freaks me out. Is this still OCD or is there some kind of psychotic process going on? 

I appreciate your help very much and I'm really grateful. Thanks to all of you, showing me the way out of my own personal hell. 

 

Edit:

My counsellor told me that I have a underlying fear of beeing isolated and alone(Due to some traumatic childhood events and a meningitis when I was 6 month old). She thinks that this fuels the thoughts. Do you think it is possible to get rid of this deep down based fear? Could this be the solution to my problem? We did not make any progress in the therapy, because she ain't got time for further appointments in the near future. 

Edited by badsidejoe
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2 hours ago, badsidejoe said:

Do you think it get's easier to establish this way of thinking with time? Do I get used to the OCD chattering?

Yes, in time, if you keep working it will become easier and easier. Recovery from OCD is like doing exercise, at first it is very difficult, it does not seem you will make much progress, but small change over time becomes big change. As you progress the voice of OCD becomes quieter until you can mostly ignore it or even not notice it.

2 hours ago, badsidejoe said:

I think the side effects of the Escitalopram throw me into a state, where there's nearly any chance to step back and see my problem as an OCD related problem.

It can take time to adjust to the medication, it’s not unusual to need to wait for a few weeks or even months to get the full effect.  Some people experience increased anxiety in the beginning but it usually goes away.  It can also be hard to tell if it’s the medication or just the OCD so if you can it’s best to try and keep going and be patient.

2 hours ago, badsidejoe said:

There is an old film with Bill Murray where he wakes up everyday at the same place and at the same time over and over again, trying to achieve some progress over the day, only to see it reseted over night. Don't know the english name of this film.

Haha yes, it’s quite popular. The name in English is “Groundhog’s Day”. The groundhog is the name of the small animal. Groundhogs Day is a silly American holiday.  The tradition is if the groundhog sees his shadow on that day there will be more winter, but if he does not, spring will come early. I believe Bill Murray’s character is in town to cover the event for TV news. 

And yes, it can feel like you are not making much progress in the beginning, it is like trying to walk out of a dark forest. You may be getting closer to the outside but the trees all look the same for awhile. You just have to keep trying to go forward. 

 

2 hours ago, badsidejoe said:

My counsellor told me that I have a underlying fear of beeing isolated and alone(Due to some traumatic childhood events and a meningitis when I was 6 month old). She thinks that this fuels the thoughts

Some people’s OCD is triggered or made worse due to traumatic events, so it’s possible that is part of what’s wrong. It’s interesting that you had meningitis when you were young, I did as well (though I do not remember it because I was so young). Though not everyone with OCD also had meaning it is, I sometimes wonder if that affected my brain and later made it easier for me to have OCD. 

Anyway, if there are other traumas that are part of your life it might help to deal with them, it might be making your OCD worse, but the current scientific theory is that OCD is caused, at least in part, due to a problem with the brain, so working out a trauma likely would not completely cure it. But CBT therapy can help you recover from OCD and not suffer from it. 

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On 18/06/2019 at 06:03, badsidejoe said:

So did you make it out of this eventually?

Yes.  But unless a person learns to handle unwanted thoughts/feelings/images in an overall sense, you'll likely just switch to another theme.

Most of us know that you gotta go through lots of discomfort to recover. Letting go is super hard. But it's one thing to know this and another to actually put it into practice.

I'm only summarizing really briefly here of course, but basically I found unless I let the thoughts come and go and let my body experience horrendous feelings, or agreed with them, or 'turned up the volume' and wanted more of them, the fear would just be there and return.  It's horrible to go through.

Reassurance just had a band aid effect.   I'm not a fan of the "it's not me, it's my ocd" way of dealing with thoughts.  My mind used to just respond "what if it's not ocd but .......?"   I would have looked to find any loophole / "but what if....?" to reassurance. 

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9 hours ago, bruces said:

Personally I think existential ocd is personally the hardest type in my own experience,very difficult to steer away from 

In my experience the hardest type of OCD is the type the suffer is dealing with at the moment.  I've hard various kinds of OCD and each of them felt like the worst possible thing at the time, I kept thinking "I'd trade this for any other kind of worry", and when that happened, I'd say the same thing.  We can't choose how OCD decides to hit us, we just have to deal with it in whatever form it takes.  Trying to pinpoint which kind is "hardest" doesn't really do anything productive, it doesn't actually help us.

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But I thought my version is the hardest :(

Seriously, I totally agree with dksea. 

Have read loads of posts where the sufferer feels their's is the worst type, unique, etc. 

Our version may be different, but the OCD works the same old way, whatever the theme or manifestation. 

Our first task is to learn how it works. 

Then accept we are, at least with high probability, suffering from it. 

Then work through a process of, day to day, leaving intrusions be without connecting or believing them - alongside structured sessions of exposure and response prevention. 

Sounds easy doesn't it? It's not that, OCD is a cunning foe. 

But it IS achievable to those who are DETERMINED to make it happen, and are patient and persevere. 

Edited by taurean
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14 hours ago, dksea said:

In my experience the hardest type of OCD is the type the suffer is dealing with at the moment.  I've hard various kinds of OCD and each of them felt like the worst possible thing at the time, I kept thinking "I'd trade this for any other kind of worry", and when that happened, I'd say the same thing. 

Yup. I have said exactly this. Whatever my trigger at the time always feels like the worst possible thing. 

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On 21/06/2019 at 03:23, dksea said:

In my experience the hardest type of OCD is the type the suffer is dealing with at the moment.  I've hard various kinds of OCD and each of them felt like the worst possible thing at the time, I kept thinking "I'd trade this for any other kind of worry", and when that happened, I'd say the same thing.  We can't choose how OCD decides to hit us, we just have to deal with it in whatever form it takes.  Trying to pinpoint which kind is "hardest" doesn't really do anything productive, it doesn't actually help us.

Yes that’s a good point. 

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My existential thoughts are based on existence, lack of will, bring controlled by some force, being the only one who exists.

Its pretty awful some days I feel I’m just prodding along with no direction and my life is some how controlled. My fear is life is merely an experience and that’s all. Living to feel but having no control, the appearance we have control but my fear being we don’t?

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It's just the disorder doing its prosaic thing, don't try to make it 'special'. Sure, life may be 'merely an experience' (how bad's that!), a simulated reality, or a cosmic joke, but others might not care - it's not an OCD thing for them. 

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19 minutes ago, paradoxer said:

It's just the disorder doing its prosaic thing, don't try to make it 'special'. Sure, life may be 'merely an experience' (how bad's that!), a simulated reality, or a cosmic joke, but others might not care - it's not an OCD thing for them. 

Yes lately I have been swaying towards like being an experienced like when you are at a games arcade and sit and play a racing game only it’s all preplanned and all you get from life is the feeling of the experience. Pretty awful thinking.

Also the solipsism thing if that were true i would be having conversations with myself as nobody else would exist it would all be one person controlling it so again that’s quite far fetched.

I do wonder if one day we will find out the answers to the workings of life? But when I make a choice with my brain I do wonder if I is really making the choice?

If we go down the religious route and we get to look back on our mistakes one would suggest we have free will to make mistakes surely?

Edited by Phil19
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I think the route to go down is to accept the probability that our intrusive thoughts are, however frightening, only the "worthless nonsense" of OCD. 

Then we can stop "trying to work it out". 

When we consistently learn not to pay attention to/give belief to intrusions, they will lose power and frequency. 

This is key to recovery, it really is, in my opinion as one who has gone through the process. 

For me, triggers used to seem to be everywhere, and intrusive thoughts - in an episode of OCD - would almost drive me crazy. 

Now? I rarely experience them. And if I do, they are simply eased away and out of mind. 

That's the true power of CBT. Used properly and consistently it really works. 

Edited by taurean
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4 hours ago, Phil19 said:

Yes lately I have been swaying towards like being an experienced like when you are at a games arcade and sit and play a racing game only it’s all preplanned and all you get from life is the feeling of the experience. Pretty awful thinking.

Also the solipsism thing if that were true i would be having conversations with myself as nobody else would exist it would all be one person controlling it so again that’s quite far fetched.

I do wonder if one day we will find out the answers to the workings of life? But when I make a choice with my brain I do wonder if I is really making the choice?

If we go down the religious route and we get to look back on our mistakes one would suggest we have free will to make mistakes surely?

The awful thinking here, mate, is OCD (never mind the 'existential angst') . This isn't nor should it be a theist or philosophical discussion ... that just gives the disorder power. 

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5 hours ago, paradoxer said:

The awful thinking here, mate, is OCD (never mind the 'existential angst') . This isn't nor should it be a theist or philosophical discussion ... that just gives the disorder power. 

The ocd is quite difficult to control though. The thoughts just come. 

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