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You don't have to 'control' the OCD, ... and let the thoughts come (you can't stop them anyway, nor should you try). Let them in - for a brief second, but then refocus - and work on not ruminating. By letting the thoughts be there - without attention, you disarm them. Result, at first they'll scream for attention, long term, they'll give up. 

Remember, the thoughts aren't the problem. 

Edited by paradoxer
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Trying to control the thoughts only strengthens them :(

Ignoring them, refusing to believe or connect with them, then refocusing away, will gradually weaken them. 

So hopefully you can see what you need to do, instead of what you are actually doing. 

 

Edited by taurean
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The most famous British psychiatrist who was influenced by existentialism was RD Laing. Some time ago he was a major influence. 

The most famous existentialist in France and perhaps the world was Sartre;  and Laing, with Copper, provided the first English translation of Sartre’s last major work A Critique of Dialectical Reason.

Have you read Laings’s Knots. About the knots we tie ourselves into?

What kind of existentialist are you? In the Danish tradition and French tradition. In both it is about carving out meaning in life and about projects which inject purpose into life.

And as mentioned before in your threads. There are existential therapists.

David Lodge a great comic novelist wrote a novel about a man fixated on existentialism called Therapy.

 

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With respect, this is not the forum to discuss existentialism  (the same goes for the topic of any other obsession) . Doing so can actually hurt rather than hinder the sufferer (it feeds in to the disorder's narrative of relevance). I'm not suggesting the OP goes to them, but there are philosophical (rather than OCD) forums out there. 

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On 19/06/2019 at 13:17, badsidejoe said:

@dksea

Thanks a lot! This completely makes sense to me, at least when I manage to get out of the thought carousel for a moment. Do you think it get's easier to establish this way of thinking with time? Do I get used to the OCD chattering? I think the side effects of the Escitalopram throw me into a state, where there's nearly any chance to step back and see my problem as an OCD related problem. Yesterday I managed to successfully do some meditation before going to sleep and to see things happening from some kind of distance. That was a great relief. The problem is, that it seems like I'm loosing the progress when I sleep. As soon as I wake up in the morning, the thoughts kick back in with all it's emotional power. There is an old film with Bill Murray where he wakes up everyday at the same place and at the same time over and over again, trying to achieve some progress over the day, only to see it reseted over night. Don't know the english name of this film. That's what I feel like. Yesterday afternoon I was suffering so bad, that I nearly drove to the next psychiatric institution. But fortunately I could convince my self not to. Sometimes when it's really hard to manage, I nearly believe my OCD thoughts. I have the huge fear, that I could believe these questions and loose the grip completely. Some times it feels like I actually believe in this thoughts allready, this freaks me out. Is this still OCD or is there some kind of psychotic process going on? 

I appreciate your help very much and I'm really grateful. Thanks to all of you, showing me the way out of my own personal hell. 

 

Edit:

My counsellor told me that I have a underlying fear of beeing isolated and alone(Due to some traumatic childhood events and a meningitis when I was 6 month old). She thinks that this fuels the thoughts. Do you think it is possible to get rid of this deep down based fear? Could this be the solution to my problem? We did not make any progress in the therapy, because she ain't got time for further appointments in the near future. 

Hi badsidejoe. 

In groundhog dog Bill Murray made progress after false starts. His goal was the  love of a woman. He, after initial mistakes, built up the knowledge to woe the woman. He changed and the repetition ended. A lot if therapy involves a plan or project about where we want to be. Sometimes it is defined as what we want to stop.

What diagnosis has your counsellor given you?  Given your question in the edit: what do you think?

I got  measles when very young. It is my earliest memory. I woke up blind. It affected my vision ever since. But this blindness, lasting some time, I don’t think it affected my psychological health. Having said that blindness is perhaps my biggest fear. It’s not easy. But move on and not worry. Is the mantra.

Edited by Angst
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First of all: thanks for all your replies! I really appreciate the help. I somehow managed to get a few stairs up. Maybe it's the side effects of my SSRI gradually decreasing or my way of coping. I try to say "I don't know, and that's ok" to myself whenever the intrusive thoughts come up. Feels like I have to do this 10.000 times a day. It's a hard battle, but at least I don't go in to analyzing mode when the thoughts return this way.

On 23/06/2019 at 10:03, taurean said:

I think the route to go down is to accept the probability that our intrusive thoughts are, however frightening, only the "worthless nonsense" of OCD. 

Then we can stop "trying to work it out". 

When we consistently learn not to pay attention to/give belief to intrusions, they will lose power and frequency. 

This is key to recovery, it really is, in my opinion as one who has gone through the process. 

For me, triggers used to seem to be everywhere, and intrusive thoughts - in an episode of OCD - would almost drive me crazy. 

Now? I rarely experience them. And if I do, they are simply eased away and out of mind. 

That's the true power of CBT. Used properly and consistently it really works. 

I fear, that the method I just described is only distracting me from the thoughts and that this may not be the right way to handle them. I've seen a lot of people writing, that I have to dive into the thoughts and feel them with all it's threat and badness to get rid of them. So, what's right now? 

On 23/06/2019 at 22:28, Angst said:

 

What diagnosis has your counsellor given you?  Given your question in the edit: what do you think?

No diagnosis. I just met him one time and he prescribed me escitalopram. He let me fill out a form about psychosis, but this came back negative. He wasn't very interested in supporting me. Since then I tried to avoid visiting one. 

To be honest I don't know if the traumatic events in my childhood play a big role. Until my 21st birthday I was pretty sure I have recovered completely because I was a happy and social person. After my first panic attack soon after, things changed. Maybe I'm just prone to anxiety since these early childhood incidents and some external and internal triggers can bring it back to the surface? @dksea's history would confirm this. But I really don't know. 

Edited by badsidejoe
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Firstly, seeking to counter an intrusion with saying "I don't know and that's OK" each time isn't the way forward, as it's a neutralising compulsion. 

Just leave those thoughts be. They are only thoughts. 

Remember that old saying "sticks and stones may break my bones but words may never harm me?" 

Thoughts won't harm us if we don't give belief to them. Spot intrusions , then refocus away. Keep gradually (not continually) doing this until not paying any attention to them becomes the norm. 

That's the refocus and distraction element of CBT. 

The other important element of the B - behavioural - element of CBT is exposure and response prevention. 

Having learned the C - cognitive - side of OCD (what it is, how it works, and why our themes aren't true) we need then to fully expose ourselves to the trigger intrusions, whilst bearing this in mind. 

It works best I think in short, structured, sessions in a quiet private environment. 

As we ride the anxiety response, but remind ourself that there isn't a real threat, over several sessions the anxiety should begin to ease away. 

And when the intrusions lose their power, they should reduce in both strength and frequency. 

 

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1 hour ago, taurean said:

Firstly, seeking to counter an intrusion with saying "I don't know and that's OK" each time isn't the way forward, as it's a neutralising compulsion. 

Just leave those thoughts be. They are only thoughts. 

Remember that old saying "sticks and stones may break my bones but words may never harm me?" 

Thoughts won't harm us if we don't give belief to them. Spot intrusions , then refocus away. Keep gradually (not continually) doing this until not paying any attention to them becomes the norm. 

That's the refocus and distraction element of CBT. 

The other important element of the B - behavioural - element of CBT is exposure and response prevention. 

Having learned the C - cognitive - side of OCD (what it is, how it works, and why our themes aren't true) we need then to fully expose ourselves to the trigger intrusions, whilst bearing this in mind. 

It works best I think in short, structured, sessions in a quiet private environment. 

As we ride the anxiety response, but remind ourself that there isn't a real threat, over several sessions the anxiety should begin to ease away. 

And when the intrusions lose their power, they should reduce in both strength and frequency. 

 

Thanks for the answer. It's not easy to let the thoughts be just thoughts. During the day it's nearly impossible to not fall into the rabbit hole when they appear. At least during my meditation session in the evening I can neutraly observe these thoughts. Do you think it is productive to do the neutralising compulsion during the day and working on them during the meditation in the evening?

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4 hours ago, taurean said:

Firstly, seeking to counter an intrusion with saying "I don't know and that's OK" each time isn't the way forward, as it's a neutralising compulsion. 

I would say if you simply repeat this and assume it neutralizes the thoughts it would be a compulsion, however I can also see it as a way of cognitively retraining yourself.  After all isn't one of the key points of OCD recovery to accept doubt? I can see this as moving towards that goal.  To me its very similar to the relabeling step in the Four Steps method, and very similar to what I did to remind myself when I would start to ruminate.

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22 hours ago, badsidejoe said:

First of all: thanks for all your replies! I really appreciate the help. I somehow managed to get a few stairs up. Maybe it's the side effects of my SSRI gradually decreasing or my way of coping. I try to say "I don't know, and that's ok" to myself whenever the intrusive thoughts come up. Feels like I have to do this 10.000 times a day. It's a hard battle, but at least I don't go in to analyzing mode when the thoughts return this way.

I fear, that the method I just described is only distracting me from the thoughts and that this may not be the right way to handle them. I've seen a lot of people writing, that I have to dive into the thoughts and feel them with all it's threat and badness to get rid of them. So, what's right now? 

No diagnosis. I just met him one time and he prescribed me escitalopram. He let me fill out a form about psychosis, but this came back negative. He wasn't very interested in supporting me. Since then I tried to avoid visiting one. 

To be honest I don't know if the traumatic events in my childhood play a big role. Until my 21st birthday I was pretty sure I have recovered completely because I was a happy and social person. After my first panic attack soon after, things changed. Maybe I'm just prone to anxiety since these early childhood incidents and some external and internal triggers can bring it back to the surface? @dksea's history would confirm this. But I really don't know. 

 

22 hours ago, badsidejoe said:

First of all: thanks for all your replies! I really appreciate the help. I somehow managed to get a few stairs up. Maybe it's the side effects of my SSRI gradually decreasing or my way of coping. I try to say "I don't know, and that's ok" to myself whenever the intrusive thoughts come up. Feels like I have to do this 10.000 times a day. It's a hard battle, but at least I don't go in to analyzing mode when the thoughts return this way.

I fear, that the method I just described is only distracting me from the thoughts and that this may not be the right way to handle them. I've seen a lot of people writing, that I have to dive into the thoughts and feel them with all it's threat and badness to get rid of them. So, what's right now? 

No diagnosis. I just met him one time and he prescribed me escitalopram. He let me fill out a form about psychosis, but this came back negative. He wasn't very interested in supporting me. Since then I tried to avoid visiting one. 

To be honest I don't know if the traumatic events in my childhood play a big role. Until my 21st birthday I was pretty sure I have recovered completely because I was a happy and social person. After my first panic attack soon after, things changed. Maybe I'm just prone to anxiety since these early childhood incidents and some external and internal triggers can bring it back to the surface? @dksea's history would confirm this. But I really don't know. 

Therapists vary in their ability and empathy. Along with all other professions. A bad experience with a medical doctor would not stop me from seeing another medical doctor.

A psychotherapist has just moved into the flat above mine who is qualified to engage in the IPAT programme in England. She has good and bad points. I speak as a neighbour not a client.  She is human.

Finding a good therapist that you have rapport with is the key. 

One bad experience should not you from seeking further help.

Edited by Angst
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2 minutes ago, Angst said:

 

Therapists vary in their ability and empathy. Along with all other professions. A bad experience with a medical doctor would not me from seeing another medical doctor.

A psychotherapist has just moved into the flat above mine who is qualified to engage in the IPAT programme in England. She has good and bad points. I speak as a neighbour not a client.  She is human.

Finding a good therapist that you have rapport with is the key. 

One bad experience should not you from seeking further help.

I think you got me wrong. I've got a good therapist, the psychiatrist I had was the problem. My therapist never did a diagnosis, because I always thought I knew what I head -> anxiety, ocd, panic and depression

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The aim of a diagnosis is to provide the necessary therapy. Not only for physical illnesses but mental illnesses too.  This is the standard approach in the UK. That is it is believed that certain therapies are better than others for certain conditions. So in the UK there is one approach recommended for OCD that being CBT and six approaches for depression which all carry equal weight. These recommendations are provided in the UK body called NICE. All have equal evidence on their effectiveness in the case of depression. The approach is called evidence based medicine.

 However, in the NHS and Dept of Health forum on this site will will find reference to Power, Threat and Meaning document which challenges this approach to mental health. Your therapist might be following something similar. Which country do you live in? It is always interesting to build up knowledge of different systems in different countries.

Good that you have a supportive therapist.

Edited by Angst
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Excuse the late reply. I live in Germany.  I have had a hypnotherapy session this week, where we work on underlying problems. I am curious how this will work out, as I am able to reach layers of my unconscious self, that I never would be able to access without this kind of therapy. In my regular therapy we talk a lot about my problems, which I find to be a great benefit sometimes. We also do some EMDR ( don't know the English term for this) practices. 

Meanwhile I'm feeling better, which is a great relief, because it was nearly unbearable a few weeks ago. I can not say what exactly it was, that led to recovery, but I tried different approaches:

- SSRI (Escitalopram 10mg)

- Therapy

- Saffron ( this was a tip of my therapist; I take twice a pill a day)

- Meditation

-  CBT Methods to reduce the analyzing of the intrusive thoughts

Maybe all of this together did the trick. I don't want to say I have recovered yet, but I am in a much better place allready. I hope I am able to manage keeping this course.

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EMDR may be also called REMD (rapid eye movement desensitisation) in the U. K. 

I also found a mix of therapies pulled things together for me, so I am glad your mix is working for you. 

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Good that your mix is working for you. Thank you for specifying your country of treatment, I think that there is a lot to be said for building knowledge of different systems. Your range of treatments - hypnotherapy, EMDR, ‘therapy’ and CBT methods would be quite different to the UK approach. Were these therapies administered by the state/insurance system or administered by a therapist in the private sector? I think comparative knowledge can be very illuminating.

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Coming back to the eye movement desensitisation, it's an interesting therapy. 

How it works (well how my clinical psychologist worked it with me) was that she asked me to focus my eyes on her finger, which she placed in front of my head and a little way back. 

To start the therapy, she bagan to move her finger quickly from side to side, and I was to focus my mind solely on following that finger with my eyes, but not moving my head. 

So the brain focuses solely on that task. The idea is that using this breaks its focus on intrusive thoughts (if you like breaks the "Brainlock" that keeps us stuck in repetitive thinking in OCD). 

My OCD would, for long periods, lock into constantly-repeating unpleasant intrusive thoughts; the psychologist hoped that by teaching me REMD this process would break that lock and release me from that episode of repetitions. 

It didn't work for me and do this. But I did eventually find that mindfulness would do this for me :)

 

Edited by taurean
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That is a very interesting account of how a therapist uses a technique. My therapist who was treating me for OCD, depression and hoarding tried a technique to relieve me of depressing thoughts which she had been taught by a colleague who originated compassion based therapy. It worked in my case. I respected the judgement of the therapist and she explained the context and how she had learnt it. And its  tentative nature. But the issue is to what extent should therapists use techniques that have not been clinically proven.It is a difficult question and I have no answer. 

Edited by Angst
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Well, for me, with OCD the core essential therapy is CBT. 

But for such additional issues as mine, it needed something else as well as the CBT - and that something else, for my problem, was mindfulness. 

Edited by taurean
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2 hours ago, Angst said:

But the issue is to what extent should therapists use techniques that have not been clinically proven.It is a difficult question and I have no answer. 

From my perspective as long as the therapy is unlikely to cause additional harm/put the patient at greater risk,  the patient is well informed of the speculative nature of the treatment, and there is a willingness to fall back to more established techniques if the new technique is not proving effective (or to use it alongside other, more established techniques), then I think its not unreasonable for therapists to offer options to the patient so long as they have good reason to believe there is potential for benefit.  Again communication and patients wellness are the key components, the clinician should always put the patients needs first, such therapies should never be done at the expense of the patient for the therapists personal or professional benefit. 

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Thanks for all your answers. I read every of your posts with great interest and am  very thankful for them. 

Even if I do better, I confronted a new problem. Maybe one of you can help me with this, as I am not sure what exactly it is I'm dealing with.

I hope I am able to describe this in English:

I am a very good speaker(at least when speaking my mother tongue ;) ). I can pursuade people pretty easily and make them believe me, even if I told them complete rubbish.(I hope I don't sound too selfish here) It's not only the speaking but more the adapting to what people want to hear. Well, the best fitting word for this would be opportunist. I always saw this as an talent, as I could go to a job interview and get the job, even without having much to offer on the paper. Today I was having a chat with some officials related to university stuff I am doing and I noticed during the discussion, that I am not myself when into this mode. I speak with people in this 'flight mode" on a complete different level as I would do this with my girlfriend or friends. I feel like I just want to please others during such conversations. This led me to the conclusion that this isn't myself when I am talking to a  foreign person or one I am not conform with and this really scares me. I am not certain anymore what my real self is like. I begin to loose the faith in myself. Maybe I wear a mask all the time and I am whole different person beneath.

Does this make any sense to you? Is this still OCD related or do I develope some schizoid disorder? Or is this just what some call a identity crisis?

Any help is appreciated and thanks for helping again.

 

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1 hour ago, badsidejoe said:

Does this make any sense to you? Is this still OCD related or do I develope some schizoid disorder? Or is this just what some call a identity crisis?

I would say that excessively worrying about something like this and going to the extreme conclusions that you are developing some kind of schizoid disorder or having an identity crisis is likely OCD behavior :)

 

The simple fact is we all do this, we all behave differently around different people in different situations.  When you meet someone for the first time it would be very odd to open up to them to the same extent you would your long time spouse/friend/family member right?  We behave differently towards say our boss than to our fellow coworkers, its a different kind of relationship with different expectations.  You might be comfortable discussing your deepest fears with your best friend, but you would be reluctant to do so with someone you have only met once or twice at a social event.  Everyones boundaries in these interactions are a little different, some people are more outgoing and open, some are more withdrawn and guarded, but it doesn't mean you are a different person each time.

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Good post from Dksea. 

Joe, we acquire skills such as interpersonal skills on our life's journey. 

I am confident around other people because that is the story of my life from a young boy with a beautiful treble voice who sung in choirs right up until he got married. To the young lad, wet behind the ears, who went out onto the trading floor at Lloyd's of London and learned his trade as an insurance broker. 

I learned the gift of how to persuade people to my line of thinking, using a combination of means such as quoting undeniable facts. 

And I too had a presence in job interviews that set me apart. And am an accomplished speaker and presenter. 

And I had a very keen interest in modern languages, learning French and German to a high level (and working in Germany for three months) plus some Russian at school, and some Linguaphone Spanish and Italian. 

These aren't me being a different person - these are learned skills combined with an inherent psyche and natural talent. 

But in your case your OCD is not accepting this and telling you its not the real you. 

OCD lies and distorts. We get better by learning not to listen to it, not believe it. 

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Thank you @dksea& @taurean. I managed to stay somehow calm thanks to what I have learned here and your encouraging words. 

A strange feeling remains. I know that everyone is acting differently, especially when beeing confronted with new/other people to some extent, but I think I reach a extreme level when doing so. People told me that, f.e. my girlfriend who knows what my "real self" is like the best. I know people that act in nearly any live situation as I would expect them to act and don't hide there personality or even negative sides. As for me there's a flip beeing switched and I even see my values and perception regarding moral and life are not the ones I would stand in for normally. Maybe this is not OCD related but a pretty normal characteristic some people have, but one I really don't want to have. In this case the OCD brought my attention to it and this isn't necessarily all bad. Maybe I just have to work on myself, on my competence to represent who I am in front of others and not beeing like a flag in the wind. Maybe this time my OCD had it's reason for beeing.

Just a thought..

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@badsidejoe

There is certainly nothing wrong with self evaluation and reconsidering how one chooses to act. In fact, I’d say that too is a very healthy thing to do. We should all take time to consider how we behave towards others and ourself. So there too I see no problem and if you take it from that approach, great. 

Just try and stay away from the extreme diagnosis of schizophrenia, that screams of OCD to me. 

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