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I struggle with making a judgement on things and reaching conclusions about things. When I do I normally say something like 'fine' meaning I know it's nothing to worry about and I'm reassured. 

I have one that has been going on for a while now which is causing me problems. 

Several months ago I thought about it and got the feeling that it was fine and even said inside my head it was fine and it was a sharp fine and the anxiety reduced afterwards. 

However the same worry has reared its head again over the last few days and at first I had to think back to the last time I was reassured as above and feel that the anxiety was removed meaning that I really did think it was fine and was really reassured.

However I couldn't get it and therefore had to do the full thought analysis again and get the feeling that my worry is fine and nothing to worry about and I said fine...however it didn't feel the same and as good as the one a few months ago.... However regardless I still said fine and therefor regardless of how I say it that shouldnt matter should it? But then I wonder if I really was thinking it was fine this time or if I just said it without thinking it was? But why would I do that and say in my mind fine if it wasnt....?? 

Would you say that I should be able to still consider the one a few months ago as still valid even though i've tried to do it again and it isn't as strong a Fine as it was a few months ago? 

As it feels like I've overwritten the previous one with this more watered down version and the previous one can no longer be valid? Or is this just OCD and the previous one can still be relied upon and is still valid? 

Edited by MentalChecker
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On 29/09/2019 at 18:41, MentalChecker said:

However the same worry has reared its head again over the last few days and at first I had to think back to the last time I was reassured as above and feel that the anxiety was removed meaning that I really did think it was fine and was really reassured.

However I couldn't get it and therefore had to do the full thought analysis again and get the feeling that my worry is fine and nothing to worry about and I said fine...however it didn't feel the same and as good as the one a few months ago.... However regardless I still said fine and therefor regardless of how I say it that shouldnt matter should it? But then I wonder if I really was thinking it was fine this time or if I just said it without thinking it was? But why would I do that and say in my mind fine if it wasnt....?? 

Hi MC,

The problem with OCD is that it sometimes robs us of the ability to feel "fine" about things.  We all want to be able to get that feeling, that removal of anxiety, of course, but OCD prevents that (or limits it at least) in situations that it shouldn't, when things actually ARE fine, we get stuck feeling like they aren't.

Part of overcoming OCD is learning that we can move forward in life, that we can continue living without getting that "fine" signal.  While it is preferable, its not ultimately necessary.  What you have been doing, perhaps without realizing it, has been engaging in compulsions.  "Full thought analysis" is another name for rumination, a compulsion.  Its understandable that you feel the need to do this, in non-OCD situations, analyzing a thought to decide how to react is fairly automatic and normal.  We do it automatically without even thinking about it.  Unfortunately its not truly effective when applied to OCD.  It reinforces the idea that the thought is important and therefore worth worrying about.  Repeating this process to get the "fine" feeling is where it becomes a compulsion, and compulsions are bad for OCD.

Ultimately, if you want to overcome OCD, you need to change some of your behavior.  You need to decide to make decisions (heh) and be ok without feeling "fine" about it all the time.  And. you need to become ok with not always feeling ok.  For example, in this situation, you'd tell yourself "I made the decision, I am moving on.  I don't feel "fine" about it now, but I don't need to." and move on.  You will find that in time you DO feel fine about it, your brain will basically get bored worrying about it, and you'll move on, you'll forget about it.

Its impossible to be 100% sure about anything in the universe.  Non-OCD brains have no problem with this, they are ok with being sure enough.  Unfortunately OCD is a flaw that makes us think we need to be 100% sure about certain things (our intrusive thoughts for example).  Trying to meet that standard is impossible and leads only to suffering.  You have to choose to give yourself permission to move on even when you don't FEEL like you are sure about something.  You will still feel doubt and probably anxiety.  Move on anyway, make a choice and live with it.  

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On 01/10/2019 at 01:45, dksea said:

Hi MC,

The problem with OCD is that it sometimes robs us of the ability to feel "fine" about things.  We all want to be able to get that feeling, that removal of anxiety, of course, but OCD prevents that (or limits it at least) in situations that it shouldn't, when things actually ARE fine, we get stuck feeling like they aren't.

Part of overcoming OCD is learning that we can move forward in life, that we can continue living without getting that "fine" signal.  While it is preferable, its not ultimately necessary.  What you have been doing, perhaps without realizing it, has been engaging in compulsions.  "Full thought analysis" is another name for rumination, a compulsion.  Its understandable that you feel the need to do this, in non-OCD situations, analyzing a thought to decide how to react is fairly automatic and normal.  We do it automatically without even thinking about it.  Unfortunately its not truly effective when applied to OCD.  It reinforces the idea that the thought is important and therefore worth worrying about.  Repeating this process to get the "fine" feeling is where it becomes a compulsion, and compulsions are bad for OCD.

Ultimately, if you want to overcome OCD, you need to change some of your behavior.  You need to decide to make decisions (heh) and be ok without feeling "fine" about it all the time.  And. you need to become ok with not always feeling ok.  For example, in this situation, you'd tell yourself "I made the decision, I am moving on.  I don't feel "fine" about it now, but I don't need to." and move on.  You will find that in time you DO feel fine about it, your brain will basically get bored worrying about it, and you'll move on, you'll forget about it.

Its impossible to be 100% sure about anything in the universe.  Non-OCD brains have no problem with this, they are ok with being sure enough.  Unfortunately OCD is a flaw that makes us think we need to be 100% sure about certain things (our intrusive thoughts for example).  Trying to meet that standard is impossible and leads only to suffering.  You have to choose to give yourself permission to move on even when you don't FEEL like you are sure about something.  You will still feel doubt and probably anxiety.  Move on anyway, make a choice and live with it.  

Hi Dksea thank you for taking the time to reply to me I really do appreciate it.

The problem I have is where you say I need to be OK with making decisions and just say 'heh...ive made my decision' and not need to get the feeling: my problem is I have very bad problems with being able to make decisions on things it's almost impossible for me to determine the judgment that should be applied to this thing I'm worried about although somebody has already given me their judgement on it and it was that there's nothing wrong with it and I shouldn't be thinking that there is.

And this is the problem I have with lots of my worries, I can never seem to make a decision on them.

However interestingly the other morning I was exercising on my bike and due to the bike just being unpacked and reset up from a holiday I had, I looked down at my feet at the bottom of the peddle stroke to see how far my leg was extending to see if the saddle was at the correct height and I said to myself that's fine and I didn't need to get any feeling for that....but it's the anxiety and worry that the other things cause me which I really making me feel on edge and I feel like I need to do the thought and mental check again to get the 'fine'.... 

Edited by MentalChecker
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10 hours ago, MentalChecker said:

The problem I have is where you say I need to be OK with making decisions and just say 'heh...ive made my decision' and not need to get the feeling: my problem is I have very bad problems with being able to make decisions on things it's almost impossible for me to determine the judgment that should be applied to this thing I'm worried about although somebody has already given me their judgement on it and it was that there's nothing wrong with it and I shouldn't be thinking that there is.

Yes, it is a challenging problem for sure, and you'll probably make mistakes along the way, thats normal.  Recovery from OCD is not an on/off thing.  Its not  "I felt bad yesterday, oh wow I feel fine today, problem solved, OCD over".  Its a gradual process, you are, in a way, breaking "bad" habits and learning "good" ones more or less.

Right now you feel like you can't make these decisions, that someone else will tell you its ok to do thing X, but you feel like there still might be something wrong.  With OCD you have to do thing X anyway EVEN THOUGH you still feel like there is something wrong.  As humans we normally rely pretty heavily on whether something "feels" right or whether we can or can't think of possible problems with doing "thing X", and in non-OCD situations thats usually a fine strategy.  But when it comes to OCD that strategy falls apart.  When you are dealing with intrusive thoughts where OCD is in play you have to change how you handle the situation.

Think of it like this, if you are driving your car on a sunny day, you apply one set of behaviors.  But if its a dark and stormy night, you wouldn't apply the same rules.  You'd turn on your lights for example, you'd probably drive slower and more cautiously since the road conditions are worse.  This happens all the time in life, we respond to different situations using different strategies.  You need to learn to do the same with OCD.  Your natural inclination is to react to these thought situations the same way you would every other thought situation in your life.  After all its the strategy that works most of the time right?  Well those are clear, sunny days.  OCD is a dark rainy night.  You have to adjust how you respond, and unfortunately that requires new learning and manually deciding how to do things for awhile.  If you keep at it it will become more and more automatic, you won't even realize you are doing it.  Similar to how you have to really think about how to drive, or how to type on a keyboard, or how to read a book when you first start learning, but after awhile it becomes something you do automatically, you don't stop and think "ok now put the car in reverse", you just do it.

So when it comes to these kind of decisions, you need to first recognize that OCD is at play.  How do you know if OCD is involved?  A good rule of thumb is, if you think it MIGHT be OCD, it probably is.  In my experience (25+ years now) I have come to know pretty well when its not OCD and when it is based on that simple rule.  I can't think of a single time where I thought "this is probably OCD, I'll handle it using the techniques I've learned for handling OCD" and been wrong/had a bad outcome.   
Next you need to employ the strategies you learn how to deal with OCD thoughts.  There are a variety of tools and techniques you can apply, all (or almost all) you learn from CBT.  Especially at the beginning it can be very valuable for you to work with a mental health professional to learn and apply CBT.  They can help you set up your own framework for handling OCD, teach you the techniques you need, and give you advice that you can apply along the way.  In time you'll get better and better at handling the situations on your own.  For a decision making situation like yours you can try a few things.  One would be to imagine how a non-OCD person would respond, think about people you know, friends and family and see if you can base your actions on theirs.  You don't even need to find the one they would all agree on, its not about being absolutely certain, its about making a REASONABLE choice of action.  If you have someone you can trust, use them as your primary role model in that regard, imagine how they would do it and try and do the same.  Another approach is to BRIEFLY consider the LIKELY pros and cons of the situation.  Not all, just the most likely.  Based on that list go with the most logical outcome.  But importantly you DO NOT have to be sure.  You DO NOT have to remove all doubt.  You need to make a choice even though you'll still have doubt, you'll still feel uncomfortable.

The reality is you can always come up with a scenario or scenarios where a situation will go wrong, and thats true at basically every step of the way.  Its impossible to eliminate all doubt and all risk.  There is always a "but what if..." option, probably an infinite number of them if you get right down to it.  If you are offered a new job for example,  you can weigh the pros and cons, but you can never be 100% certain of your choice.  What if the company you join has a scandal and goes out of business?  What if the company you stay with is going to fire you in 6 months anyway for a mistake they think you made but didn't.  What if a time portal from the past opens up, a t-rex appears at your work and eats you.  That last one probably (hopefully) sounds ridiculous but it IS theoretical possible that that (or something like it) could happen.  You can't know what the future holds, you can only make your best guess and go with it. 
 

Being "OK" with not feeling OK is not something you feel, at least not right away, its a choice you make.  And you can make a choice to do something even if you feel bad doing it.  If that weren't the case, no one would ever exercise for example.Tell yourself and train yourself to make decisions even when you feel doubt.  If you keep at it, if you keep practicing you'll improve, and your OCD will improve.  None of us knows the future, so we can, if we let ourselves, worry for the rest of our lives.  Choose to live inspire of the doubt, not be controlled by it.  You CAN do it, millions of people have and do.  Not because they are stronger than you, just that they learned these lessons before you did.  Now its your turn.  Good luck.

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Many Thanks Dksea. 

The problem is the type of OCD I have I will NEVER know if my worries are really true or not. Its not something I can do exposure on and then realise that the thing I worried about didn't happen in the end. 

All my worries are about things that may or may not have happened before now.  And I feel like I can't go on in life and be happy unless I know. 

I've had CBT and I've been told to let the worries come in and leave without reacting to them.  And when the worries come and the anxiety rises, not to do the compulsions but just sit with the anxiety until if goes naturally.

I have lots of different types of worries and some involve me personally doing things and the reasons I may have done them and I've been told I have to trust myself without analysing what I'm trusting myself about.

And not to do any confessions which is easier said than done when you think you've done something terrible. 

But although the above may be a way to control the anxiety it's NEVER going to allow me to get closure as I will NEVER know for sure if my worries were ever real of not and I could be living with lies and deceit which is something I NEVER want to do.... 

Edited by MentalChecker
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3 hours ago, MentalChecker said:

The problem is the type of OCD I have I will NEVER know if my worries are really true or not. Its not something I can do exposure on and then realise that the thing I worried about didn't happen in the end. 

The thing is, you don't HAVE to know if your worries are true or not.  Exposure isn't about realizing the thing you worried didn't happen (though that can help), exposure is about teaching your mind that you don't have to respond to a particular intrusive thought or idea.  If people had to wait for their fears to be proven 100% false before moving on they could never do anything.  For example, if my intrusive fear is "what if I have a heart attack", I'll never be able to prove that it won't happen.  At best I can prove it hasn't happened yet, but thats not my fear anyway.  The heart attack will always remain a possibility.  But people live their lives without dwelling on that worry all the time, even people who will, eventually have a heart attack.  Why?  Because if we didn't we'd never do anything, we'd just live in constant fear.

Recovery from OCD doesn't mean eliminating all fear, doesn't mean eliminating all possibilities of worry or intrusive thoughts.  Recovery from OCD means getting on with your life despite the fact that you can't be sure these things won't happen, or in your case haven't happened.  Non-OCD people live their lives based on their best guess, the most reasonable assumption (or reasonable in their view at least, there's a lot of room for variation on that one).  OCD people have to learn to live that way too, unfortunately without all the same advantages that non-OCD people have.
 

3 hours ago, MentalChecker said:

But although the above may be a way to control the anxiety it's NEVER going to allow me to get closure as I will NEVER know for sure if my worries were ever real of not and I could be living with lies and deceit which is something I NEVER want to do.... 

The reality is there is nothing in your past you can prove without a doubt happened.  Certainty is an illusion that we all live with because its convenient, but when you get right down to it, everything is based on best guesses and probably.  Memory is notoriously fuzzy for example.  Consider for example two people recalling the same event.  Its not at all uncommon for people to disagree, even over non-controversial aspects in a memory.  "So John was sitting next to Mary and Steve" "No, Steve was on the other chair, John was sitting next to Mary and Bob" "Are you sure? I could swear it was..."  Human memory is not like a computer, its not a perfect snapshot of an event, we can't just access things in our minds like a file folder (OK brain, what happened at 5:39 pm on September 24, 1997).  Our memories are influenced by time, other peoples memories of the events that we hear, all sorts of things.  You can not prove with 100% certainty what happened in the past, no one can.  Maybe you can prove it with a super high degree of certainty, like for example if you have a video recording of a specific event.  But its possible that the video was modified somehow right?  Maybe its unlikely, perhaps extremely unlikely, but its still possible.  Or maybe the entire video is a fake.  Less likely but again, it is within the realm of possibility.  I could go on and on coming up with examples of why this or that isn't 100% proof of something, its not hard to come up with edge cases, ridiculous ones in some cases, stretching the bounds of belief even (maybe we are all alien clones, all our memories are fake, etc.) ultimately we have no way of knowing with 100% certainty.  It does not exist in the universe, and the only people who believe they have to find it are people with OCD, because the disease lies to us and tells us we need it in order to move on with our life.

So you are right, you will probably NEVER know for sure if some of these things you worry might have happened in the past ever actually happened.  For one thing you can't prove a negative. Prove you are not a murderer. How would you even do that?  Prove that no one who has ever been killed was because of you?  Maybe you killed someone and no one knows that person is even dead then had your mind erased.  Its an impossible standard to prove a negative.  Thats why the rational (and normal) thing to do is to assume you DIDNT do something unless you have reason to believe you did.  And it can't just be a little reason, it has to be good reason, enough reason to overcome the default state of NOT having done something.

Lets go back to the murderer thought, its a pretty bad one if its true right?  Maybe you have an intrusive thought you could have run over someone while driving home one night.  How do you prove it never happened?    If you have a specific idea when and where you can check the records, check the area, but what if your memory is off by a day or two?  What if your memory of what you might have done is more vague so you don't recall exactly when or where.  You could spend the rest of your life searching for the "proof".  And here's the kicker, if you didn't do anything wrong, if you didn't hurt anyone, you'll NEVER find the evidence!  You'll have no way of "knowing"!  You could spend your entire life, and your kids could spend their entire life, and so on and so on, and if you did nothing wrong you'd NEVER be able to prove it, its logically impossible!

You are falling into OCD's trap, trying to meet its impossible goals, and allowing black and white/all or nothing thinking to dictate your thinking.  You don't have to prove with 100% certainty whether or not you did something in order to move on and live your life.  No one in the entire history of the universe has ever achieved that goal and I guarantee you won't be the first, the laws of physics itself prevent it form happening, quite simply reality does not work that way.  Closure is a feeling, not a fact.  And OCD messes with our ability to get that feeling.  It doesn't mean we are guilty for moving on.  It doesn't mean we have done anything wrong.  It means there is a malfunction in our brain, one that is not our fault, and one we don't have to follow.  I could invent a time machine, take you back to the specific time you are worried about, and you could (probably would if ou have OCD) STILL end up worrying.  Why?  Because its not about whether or not the event happened, its about whether or not you get the FEELING of closure.  And once you accept that fundamental truth of OCD, that the reality isn't what you are craving (you just think you are) but the sensation, the neurological checkbox being checked, the you can decide to move on with your life anyway, you can decide to treat the OCD for what it is, a bunch of garbage.  The difference between you and a non-OCD person isn't that you did something terrible and they didn't, its that your brain isn't signaling properly and theirs is.  

Just because a car alarm goes off doesn't mean the car is being broken in to.  In fact given how often they go off and how damn sensitive they are, odds are nothing is wrong at all.  Or, to try a slightly different analogy, imagine the electrician wired your doorbell wrong.  Now, randomly throughout the day it just goes off.  The first few times it happens you'd probably check your door to see who was there, but eventually you'd stop answering because no one would ever be there.  You'd probably try and get the doorbell fixed at some point (or rip its bloody wires out), but you wouldn't keep trying to answer the door.  Unfortunately rewiring the doorbell in your brain that OCD has messed up is a little more complicated than just calling out the electrician.  But it can be done, using CBT.  Or you can keep answering the mental door in your head, keep treating these worries as if they were important, or worth worrying about.  Just because you worry about something doesn't mean its likely, doesn't mean its worth it, doesn't mean you should be worrying.  Give yourself a break, odds are you deserve it.  And on the off chance you really did do something, well, as the saying goes, better a hundred guilty men go free, than an innocent man go to jail.  You don't deserve to be tormented by what if's, and if you give yourself a chance, you don't have to be.

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