What would a normal response to this be? (anxious and upset)

[paradoxer]

36 minutes ago, dksea said:

While you are, of course, free to live your life under more strict standards if that makes you happy, its still not reasonable to expect others to engage in such extreme behaviors, they are not based on reason or logic, even if you have come to believe so as part of your OCD.

Absolutely, OCD ruling the roost there. The terrible, far from perfect, fraudulent, myopic, time-wasting (not to mention absurd) disorder as arbiter of all that is 'good'.  

[STEJ]

1 hour ago, dksea said:

These are two unrelated events so comparing them is not worthwhile.  The question is not "does activity X take more or less time than activity Y?", the question is "is activity X being done to excess for no good reason?"

How are those two events not worth comparing when they both pertain to personal hygiene????? The bottom line is, I don't really consider washing my hands 3-4 times after defecating to be OCD in my case, considering I feel like my hands wouldn't be properly clean if the soap didn't lather adequately during the first washes!!!! I've looked up the matter online, as to whether or not soap actually cleans if it doesn't lather, and the general consensus is that it does clean if it doesn't lather, but if that's the case, why do you often get people who shampoo their hair more than once when they shower, just because it doesn't lather much the first time?? In my book, these differences in opinion means there isn't a definitive answer to my particular quandary, therefore I don't consider myself to be illogical or irrational if I continue to wash my hands if it the soap doesn't immediately lather!!!!! And if you're going to say that me washing my hands 3-4 times after defecating is OCD because I'm washing my hands more than you would, then I feel like I'm well within my rights to say people who shower twice a day are suffering from OCD because they're showering more often than I would!!!!!!

1 hour ago, dksea said:

(Side note:  Not sure if English isn't your first language, but just in case "larvae" in English means baby insects/bugs/etc.  Perhaps you mean the word "lather" instead.)

So because I misuse ONE WORD, that means English isn't my first language?????? OKAY!

 

1 hour ago, dksea said:

The world would not be perfect, it will never be perfect, perfection is an impossibility.  Mean while, you may feel like your behavior is wise and cautious, but evidence and logic demonstrate that its anything but

If anything, I think the evidence and logic favour me. It's pretty common knowledge really that if you touch the hands of a person who covers their mouths with their hands when they cough or sneeze, or touch something they've touched, and then put your hands on your face and near your mouth, you'll be pretty likely to catch their germs, and end up walking around with your own cough or sneeze!!!! And I for one, find it PRETTY REVOLTING, the idea of catching some unknown person's cough or cold!!!!! And personally, I've never had a cough or cold since maybe late 2003 or so. Of course, this could be attributed to the fact that I don't get out much, but I'm pretty confident really that if I was able to go out every year whilst taking the precautions I do, I'D NEVER CATCH A COLD IN THAT YEAR!!!! After all, my Mum doesn't get out much either, and yet even she has had coughs at least two times in the last 16 years or so!

 

1 hour ago, dksea said:

While you are, of course, free to live your life under more strict standards if that makes you happy, its still not reasonable to expect others to engage in such extreme behaviors, they are not based on reason or logic, even if you have come to believe so as part of your OCD.

To be honest, I really don't see what you find so excessive about expecting someone to wash their hands if they touch a bin, an animal, a floor, etc!!!!! I know it sounds cold, including animals, but animals sometimes do disgusting, unclean things!!!! Dogs are known to eat their own feces, and even roll around in it, sometimes!!!! And cats are likely to try and hunt birds and mice, and mice have a historic reputation for carrying disease!!!! Cats will also rub their heads against all kinds of questionable things when they're out and about on their travels!! Would you really want someone to touch bins, commonly-used door handles, animals and floors, AND THEN PREPARE FOOD FOR YOU WITHOUT WASHING THEIR HANDS???? Even animal "experts" recommend people always wash their hands after touching animals!!!!

[STEJ]

1 hour ago, paradoxer said:

Absolutely, OCD ruling the roost there. The terrible, far from perfect, fraudulent, myopic, time-wasting (not to mention absurd) disorder as arbiter of all that is 'good'.  

With all due respect, I believe OCD to be ruling the roost with you too, since you still identify yourself as a sufferer!!!!

[gingerbreadgirl]

whether something is OCD or not is really nothing to do with the amount/quantity of one particular witnessable behaviour. it's to do with the driving thinking patterns and whether they cause distress. 

I could wash my hands 200 times a day and if that behaviour genuinely makes me happy and doesn't impact on my life in a negative way then it's all good (except for water wastage  /harm to my hands etc.)

On the other hand, I could wash my hands only four times a day but if those four times are riddled with anxiety and doubt and play on my mind for hours and I want to wash my hands more and never feel satisfied and I avoid leaving the house because of it and thinking about it distracts me from doing my work and I believe that if I don't do those four hand washes then disaster will befall me or someone else etc etc... then this is OCD. If I am washing four times but carrying out many other compulsions around it - ruminating, checking, researching, reassurance-seeking, or whatever - then that is OCD.

Whether you wash your hands four times after going to the loo is up to you.  If you feel it's logical and it causes you no distress then go for it - that is not OCD in my book.

However - encouraging someone who is experiencing great distress around contamination to carry out compulsions is not OK anymore than it's OK to encourage someone who's broken their leg to go for a run "because loads of evidence suggests running is good for you". 

Edited October 15, 2019 by gingerbreadgirl

[felix4]

Ironically, it is Global Handwashing Day today 2019! 

 

[paradoxer]

3 hours ago, STEJ said:

With all due respect, I believe OCD to be ruling the roost with you too, since you still identify yourself as a sufferer!!!!

Well that's fine - I'm not here to score points. Regardless of my ongoing recovery from this irrational disorder (I happen to be about 70% recovered), I, at least know cognitively - that all OCD content is trash. That insight isn't a guarantee against succumbing to its siren call, but, I'd say without it, one isn't even in with a chance. 

[paradoxer]

1 hour ago, felix4 said:

Ironically, it is Global Handwashing Day today 2019! 

 

Excellent! 

[Closed for repairs]

I think the key here is the D, disorder...

I like to while away time pondering the mysteries of the universe, strictly amateur I'd get worried if I came up with any answers..!

I know this sort of thinking causes some on here immense distress.

I'm my case it's not OCD, but I keep an eye out for the signs 

If it's filling your time with distressing intrusive thoughts then It probably is.

If I enjoyed the endless checking things, and the worry about everything being my fault,  I think we could say "not OCD",  it's the misery and panic attacks the add the D..

 

[Closed for repairs]

One of the common aproches in OCD treatment is to ask what you could be doing instead, and it applies to life life in general, it all a series of compromises, I don't want to get get sick but I'll put up with colds to be able to work and function in society.

At the moment I'm not yet prepared to endure the discomfort of not doing my checking, so I have to put up with the downsides.

I like whiskey but have stopped drinking to take my meds to give myself the best chance of beating this thing.

I'm lazy/scared about doing CBT/ERP, so I'm going to have to put up with it taking longer.

It's all compromises... 

 

[BelAnna]

Hi All, 

Gingerbreadgirl- I completely agree with you. OCD compulsive behaviours have to stem from OCD obsessive thoughts and/or a feeling of having to do the activity at the expense of other daily tasks and/or whilst experiencing significant distress.

STEJ, I'm concerned that you're new to the forum and might be feeling ganged up on. The posters suggesting that I shouldn't ask my family to wash their hands are just trying to help me. For a non-contamination OCD-er it would be fine (and even a good idea) to wash their hands after handling money if they wish to BUT for me to ask my family to wash their hands, is just reinforcing the faulty belief that I have i.e. the thought that if I hand money to someone who has been doing something 'germy' then I will definitely get sick. 

There are some people who do not have OCD or do not have contamination-related OCD themes who do choose to wash their hands after using the toilet, before preparing food and after handling laundry, bins, money, pets and soiled items in line with health recommendations from authorities on the prevention of disease (e.g. CDC). It is a reasonable and safe precaution to do so as we know that germs can cause illness. 

In reality the majority of people probably wash their hands less than is advised by the Center for Disease Control and they are fine for the majority of the time- I like you, do feel quite grosed out by (and actually slightly annoyed about) the lack of hand washing in the general population. However those same people also live lives without the huge distress that contamination OCD causes and the limitations that it puts on my life. If you wash your hands more often you do catch fewer infections however if you stay home all day, avoid other people and wash obsessively you also lose out on life. 

I have to work at reducing my 'safety behaviours' (such as handwashing), not because people who do not wash their hands are objectively 'right' (frankly not washing your hands after using the loo is a bit yuck and carries a small but significant risk of viral infection) but because OCD steals time, happiness and purpose from our lives/ my life and it is not worth it to avoid viruses; even if I feel that it is! 

Edited October 15, 2019 by BelAnna

[PolarBear]

Stej, you are on an OCD forum but spend time telling us that your behavior is not OCD related. I'm not sure what the point is.

There are some very educated people here when it comes to OCD and it seems on the surface that your washing behavior is related to OCD. Trying to convince us that washing your hands three or four times after going to the washroom is normal is not going to work with us.

You can quote all the references you have Googled but we'll see the Googling as a compulsion, nothing more.

I suggest you drop the subject. If you are comfortable with your behavior then you don't require help and that is what we offer.

Edited October 15, 2019 by PolarBear

[STEJ]

2 hours ago, PolarBear said:

Stej, you are on an OCD forum but spend time telling us that your behavior is not OCD related. I'm not sure what the point is.

Some might consider my "excessive" hand washing an obsession, and I do concede that I feel somewhat guilty about using more soap than maybe what is absolutely necessary, but I feel at the same time like it is a worthy price to pay for getting my hands as clean as I feel they need to be!!!!!!! Given that hand washing doesn't take me an extraordinary amount of time, or cause me distress, I personally wouldn't consider it OCD, even if some here do!!!!!! I guess sometimes the label of OCD can be somewhat subjective!!!! My main OCD that causes me the most distress and anxiety is religious OCD, or Scrupulosity!!!! That's why I'm here on this forum!!!!! And although I don't have THE DEFINITIVE ANSWERS for overcoming this germs and contamination branch of OCD, I thought it might've been helpful for me to offer my own insights and methods of dealing with it!!!!! If it helps people, that's great, and if people can't help but laugh at me for sounding like such a lunatic, that's also great, because it might help them to look at their own OCD behaviours in such a way!!!!! This brings me nicely to your next point!!

3 hours ago, PolarBear said:

There are some very educated people here when it comes to OCD and it seems on the surface that your washing behavior is related to OCD.

I don't deny that there's some very educated, very intelligent, very helpful people here, BUT GIVEN THAT THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THEM ARE STILL SUFFERING FROM THEIR OWN RESPECTIVE OCD FORMS, I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that my guesses are as good as theirs!!!!! You could essentially say we're all pioneers here, throwing our experiences and insights into the mix whilst participating in the fight against the LARGELY UNCURED mental illness that is OCD, and whilst my insights might end up being proven wrong in the course of time, I feel that to so rashly discount what I have to say simply because it goes against CBT/ERP doctrine is effectively tantamount to compartmentalising one's thinking to "the box", and sealing yourself in that box can end up becoming highly problematic if that box just happens to be far from the cure, so to speak!!!!! I mean, even CBT, for all its success stories, doesn't really seem to provide much LONG-TERM SUCCESS!!!!!!! So I'm still open-minded when I ask myself the question, "IS THERE ANYTHING BETTER OUT THERE????"

[paradoxer]

You've had a couple of people kindly taking the time to eloquently respond to your posts (one spelling out things in patient detail). If your hand washing, and over the top concerns about cleanliness aren't OCD, then by definition, on an OCD forum, they're moot, and have no relevance here ...  take them to a hygiene forum instead. And what's with all the overwrought use of capitals and exclamation marks? Perhaps some time on a Writing discussion group might do it too.   

[STEJ]

55 minutes ago, paradoxer said:

You've had a couple of people kindly taking the time to eloquently respond to your posts (one spelling out things in patient detail). If your hand washing, and over the top concerns about cleanliness aren't OCD, then by definition, on an OCD forum, they're moot, and have no relevance here ...  take them to a hygiene forum instead. And what's with all the overwrought use of capitals and exclamation marks? Perhaps some time on a Writing discussion group might do it too.   

I've said in my post above that my reason for posting in this thread is to offer my particular insight and experiences on this matter, since I've always been more worrisome about germs and contamination that most people, at least when it comes to physically handling and manipulating things with our hands!!!!!!! I wouldn't consider this OCD on my part, as by itself, it doesn't particularly cause distress or wastage of time in my life!!!! As I've elaborated above, my main OCD woes centre around religious OCD and Scrupulosity!!!! And sure, I'll attend writing discussion courses, but I expect to see you next door taking part in the reading and comprehension courses, in order to get you out of this habit of selective reading you seem to have succumbed to!!!!! Who knows, maybe we can get together in the canteen for games of pool during the lunch breaks!!!!!

[gingerbreadgirl]

If your contamination concern is not ocd then telling someone who does have ocd around this to handle it the same way you do is not going to work. 

[STEJ]

22 minutes ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

If your contamination concern is not ocd then telling someone who does have ocd around this to handle it the same way you do is not going to work. 

I'm not saying my approach DEFINITELY WILL WORK, just like the other people here can't say CBT DEFINITELY WILL WORK!!!!! I'm just putting forth my suggestions as something for the original thread maker to consider!!!!! If it works and puts her at ease, that's great!!!! If not, then all the others can keep up the good work with their promotion of CBT!!!! Personally though, I think asking a person ABSOLUTELY RAVAGED by OCD to suddenly go from being at the height of irrationality, TO AN UNWAVERING PILLAR OF LOGIC overnight is too much of a big leap to take, and from what I read of posts from proponents of CBT here, that's the impression I get from them in regards to what they expect from OCD victims!!!!

[gingerbreadgirl]

Hi stej. You'll probably get a better response from people if you're not quite  so aggressive-seeming in your posts. Multiple exclamation marks and use of capitals comes across as quite aggressive. 

[vivi_x]

23 minutes ago, STEJ said:

I'm not saying my approach DEFINITELY WILL WORK, just like the other people here can't say CBT DEFINITELY WILL WORK!!!!! 

I’m sorry, this approach won’t work. I know this for a fact because I’ve tried it, and and soon washing your hands 3 times becomes 6 becomes 9 becomes doing it until your hands are raw because for those of us with contamination ocd, no level of cleanliness will ever satisfy the anxiety, and soon this method becomes washing yourself in boiling water multiple times a day. I appreciate that you don’t feel that you do this too much, and that’s your choice, but coming to this forum and spreading ill advised advice to sick people isn’t fair. There is a way of dealing with ocd that works. CBT. it’s not speculation it’s fact. Aggressively messaging people on the forum that have been here much longer than you doesn’t seem the way to join a new community. 

As for people describing themselves as sufferers, I think it’s unwise to throw this in peoples faces, as some believe it’s not something you ever completely beat, but you continue to fight off. 

 

Please feel free to reply in a calm manner if there is anything I have said that you would like me to clarify. 

[gingerbreadgirl]

7 minutes ago, vivi_x said:

I’m sorry, this approach won’t work. I know this for a fact because I’ve tried it, and and soon washing your hands 3 times becomes 6 becomes 9 becomes doing it until your hands are raw because for those of us with contamination ocd, no level of cleanliness will ever satisfy the anxiety, and soon this method becomes washing yourself in boiling water multiple times a day. I appreciate that you don’t feel that you do this too much, and that’s your choice, but coming to this forum and spreading ill advised advice to sick people isn’t fair. There is a way of dealing with ocd that works. CBT. it’s not speculation it’s fact. Aggressively messaging people on the forum that have been here much longer than you doesn’t seem the way to join a new community. 

As for people describing themselves as sufferers, I think it’s unwise to throw this in peoples faces, as some believe it’s not something you ever completely beat, but you continue to fight off. 

 

Please feel free to reply in a calm manner if there is anything I have said that you would like me to clarify. 

Agree 100% x 

[STEJ]

4 hours ago, gingerbreadgirl said:

Hi stej. You'll probably get a better response from people if you're not quite  so aggressive-seeming in your posts. Multiple exclamation marks and use of capitals comes across as quite aggressive. 

Hi Gingerbreadgirl. I have to say, I've never seen the use of capitals every now and then as aggressive. It's a writing technique I adopted from people like dating coach David DeAngelo whose mailing lists I used to subscribe to. I've always thought of capitalising certain key words as a way to make those points stand out, and to avoid coming off as boring, and grab peoples' interest, as opposed to risking having their interest waning as they progress through my comments. After all, sometimes walls of texts can put people off reading if there's nothing there to grab their attention, can't they? But I'm sorry if I've come across as aggressive in that manner. I'll make an effort to lessen the caps and the exclamation marks.

Believe it or not, I've always had lots of reasons for using lots of exclamation marks. For starters, sometimes it's made me feel more powerful and driven, and has given me a feeling of momentum to keep going with my writing, as opposed to slowing down, getting confused, battling my OCD and suffering from writers' block. I also feel like my prolific usage of exclamation marks makes me sound more down to earth and zany, like I'm not trying to take myself too seriously at the expense of others, like I'm willing to laugh at myself. In the past, I always thought of people who didn't use exclamation marks as trying to sound superior, stuck up, and flawless. Given that I'm an sympathetic type, I didn't want to put that kind of a snooty side out there, but if the frequent exclamation marks offend you, then I'll try and stop.

3 hours ago, vivi_x said:

but coming to this forum and spreading ill advised advice to sick people isn’t fair. There is a way of dealing with ocd that works. CBT. it’s not speculation it’s fact.

Well I didn't think my advice was ill-advised, since it does help me cope, but if it doesn't work for you, fair enough. We do all differ after all. Oh, and Paradoxer and the man with the wolf avatar by his posts will be proud to know I only washed my hands THREE TIMES rather than four times when I defecated before. ;*D I should've clarified that another reason I sometimes wash, like four times after defecating is because when I wipe, I crouch down in a squatting position, as I feel like this allows me to the the tissue "further in" in order to make it cleaner in there, but when I do this, my forearms rub against my bare anus after it's been on the toilet seat, so I feel like I need to wash my forearms too, so that would justify using 3-4 lots of soap, rather than just two, I reckon. After all, it's a bigger area for the soap to cover than just my hands alone. I suppose the squatting stance whilst wiping developed from people often saying I stunk the place out in high school, and I thought it'd only add fuel to the fire if I started literally smelling of feces from doing a poor job of wiping, wouldn't it? And the reason I go topless when defecating, no matter how cold it is, is because I don't want the sleeves of my tops to get too close to the floor, and risk having things like fleas jumping onto them, and then bring the fleas back with me onto my bed, where they could maybe get into my mouth, and then I could end up swallowing them and getting worms growing inside me. ;*(

 

4 hours ago, vivi_x said:

CBT. it’s not speculation it’s fact.

If that's the case, why aren't you doing it?

 

4 hours ago, vivi_x said:

Aggressively messaging people on the forum that have been here much longer than you doesn’t seem the way to join a new community. 

I admit, I'm an insecure little man who doesn't want to feel like he's being walked over. I suppose this stems from my time in high school when the athletic jocks would make me cry in front of hot girls I fancied, hot girls would say I stank, and that they wouldn't have wanted my little girly hands touching them even if they were being paid millions for it, and how even the younger kids would mock me for not knowing the meanings of various sexual acts. Plus, with me being a self-loathing type of person, I kind of get a twisted kick out of people looking at me as being "the insecure jackass who can't walk away from online arguments." Plus, I've always thought that debating online makes my OCD better, as it gives me something to look forward to, rather than being alone with my fear and anxiety all the time. ;*( That's one of the reasons I've started visiting these forums, maybe thinking socialising with people in a civilised way will make my OCD better the same way debating does, so that I won't have that feeling of guilt hanging over my shoulder all the time as debating fights off my OCD. I feel like God might not want me to be debating with people online you see, and I start feeling like I'm caving in to immorality in order to make my OCD better. But other times when I get angry, I start asking myself why I'm put up with constant fear and angst from OCD when I can alleviate it by owning arrogant atheists online? It's a case of breaking some eggs to make an omelet, I suppose you could say. I mean, when my OCD makes me afraid of things happening to others, it isn't just me suffering anymore, is it? So that's when I need to go to extreme lengths to cure my OCD, I say.

 

4 hours ago, vivi_x said:

Aggressively messaging people on the forum that have been here much longer than you doesn’t seem the way to join a new community. 

In all honesty, I don't think I've been overly aggressive. I think all I've done is reply to people who've done their best to silence me, shut me down, and stop me from having my opinions. Y'see, I remember this kind of thing from forums I joined years ago, where the established alpha males of the group would try to haze new members, and "put them in their places", but I'm not one to concede gracefully these days. I'm not a doormat anymore.

 

4 hours ago, vivi_x said:

As for people describing themselves as sufferers, I think it’s unwise to throw this in peoples faces, as some believe it’s not something you ever completely beat, but you continue to fight off. 

I think that's a cop out, really. Anything is possible if one has God behind them, and personally, I think the matter of killing OCD completely is just a case of finding the right thought patterns, like tuning into the right radio station. Sometimes it can be hard to get that crystal clear reception with the tuning knob, but once you succeed, you get sweet, sweet crystal clear music.

[paradoxer]

Well, what a tome. I note that you bring God and Religion into the equation, considering, by your own admission that that is what your OCD focuses on, rather than the patently unreasonable notions of cleanliness, it seems to be ill-advised. OCD is a mental disorder, not a belief system. As for the offensive 'cop out' you refer to (not only rude, but foolish), it's commonly accepted that for the vast majority of people OCD doesn't go away. And the kicker is (it's also ironically part of the cure), it doesn't have to, the aim is for it to just not be of consequence anymore. One final thing, your attempt at trying to be somehow 'special' (you yourself allude to it being overcompensating), may be an attempt to be heard, but to paraphrase that self-help book from the 1930s, it's more inclined to 'Lose friends and convince no one'.    

 

[gingerbreadgirl]

4 hours ago, STEJ said:

I'm sorry if I've come across as aggressive in that manner. I'll make an effort to lessen the caps and the exclamation marks.

Thanks I appreciate that.  

4 hours ago, STEJ said:

If that's the case, why aren't you doing it?

Massive assumption to make.  There are many reasons why a person may not be better yet.  Not that they aren't doing CBT or that CBT doesn't work.  CBT has a mountain of scientific evidence behind it as being the best treatment we currently have for OCD.  Check out some of the literature you might find it interesting.

4 hours ago, STEJ said:

I think all I've done is reply to people who've done their best to silence me, shut me down, and stop me from having my opinions. Y'see, I remember this kind of thing from forums I joined years ago, where the established alpha males of the group would try to haze new members, and "put them in their places", but I'm not one to concede gracefully these days. I'm not a doormat anymore.

I think you mistake people disagreeing with you with them trying to "shut you down".  Also the fact that you assume those disagreeing with you are "alpha males" (or male at all) is, in my opinion, ignorant.  As well as the fact that you assume they are doing so to try and "put you in your place". 

4 hours ago, STEJ said:

Anything is possible if one has God behind them

Not an appropriate comment to make as if it is a fact.  Not everybody has religious beliefs. 

Edited October 16, 2019 by gingerbreadgirl

[BelAnna]

Hi All,

Would it be okay to start a different thread for this? I don't feel like it's going anywhere good really! 

 

[paradoxer]

7 hours ago, BelAnna said:

Hi All,

Would it be okay to start a different thread for this? I don't feel like it's going anywhere good really! 

 

Of course, it's unfortunate that it's been 'hijacked', in a way.

Wishing you the best. 

[STEJ]

8 hours ago, BelAnna said:

Hi All,

Would it be okay to start a different thread for this? I don't feel like it's going anywhere good really! 

 

It's okay. I'll respectfully bow out of the thread. It doesn't really seem right, me being somewhere where I'm expected to "leave God at the door" anyway.