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Harming others


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My OCD ,for years has concerned harming others. This has effected my life massively .I have had years of therapy and meds and until this current crisis it was manageable ,though never gone.

I wanted to start a topic about this as it seems like it is quite common and other people on here have similar worries.I would love to chat to people about why we have this specific fear and anything people have found successful to help.

I do not worry about myself, I am a laid back parent who gives my children a lot of freedom, I don't worry about my husband  or about things like money or status etc. In the rest of my life I am a laid back and very open minded person but I can be frozen in fear that I have harmed other people  in various different ways.

This literally ruins my life and would like to talk to people who understand and can offer advice or who I can support too.

 

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This is what my obsessive thoughts focus on too. I am probably the gentlest most law abiding person ever yet I have obsessive thoughts about having committed a crime in the past that I've blocked out and I have an obsessive fear about being arrested. Like I say, I'm the most law abiding person I know, I don't even like breaking the speed limit. I guess it's true that OCD attacks your values and what's most important to you. Just before xmas last year I went to visit a work friend who had just had a baby. I'd been off work ill for a couple of days 2 weeks before, there were a lot of bugs going round work at the time. I'd been there for a couple of hours and we'd had a nice catch up and I was holding the baby and my friend mentioned that one of her friends hadn't seen the baby yet as she was ill. A throwaway comment but that's all it took for me to get an irrational thought - "I was ill 2 weeks ago, what if I'm still contagious and I've passed something to the baby?". That was it then, I started obsessing about having passed something to the baby and convinced myself the baby was either going to be seriously ill or die because of my actions. It was horrific, I literally felt like I wanted to kill myself. I couldn't sleep, I could barely function, it completely ruined what should have been a lovely xmas with my family who I only get to see a couple of times a year. I spent hours googling incubation periods of viruses trying to reassure myself that I couldn't have passed anything on but the relief I got from that didn't last long. Obviously nothing happened to the baby and looking back now I can see how irrational my thinking was but at the time it felt like a genuine possibility. I also have a fear that I've committed a crime in the past and I've blocked it out. I can spend hours searching my memory for "evidence" which is dumb as you can't remember something that didn't happen. The rational part of me knows that it's pretty unlikely you would commit a crime and have no memory of it but the voice in my head is always there saying "yeah but what if?" I hate what OCD has taken from me, I used to be a confident and happy person and I used to like myself. I wasn't arrogant but I always felt like I was generally a good person but I don't feel like that anymore, I constantly feel shame and guilt and for what? Something that probably didn't happen! It's crazy. I'm trying really hard to get my life back. I've been reading loads of self help books and trying to follow their advice.  I read "Break Free From OCD" recently and found that really helpful. I know the worst thing you can do is give the thoughts attention and start ruminating so I try and dismiss the thoughts when they come which is easier said than done! 

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Thanks for reply Pink Princess. What you say about the baby is EXACTLY what I do.

I agree not giving them attention is the best thing to do. Now I know it's OCD I find this  a bit easier.

I would love to get to the route of why I react like this and how other people don't. My mind can race off in all sorts of horrific directions and catastrophise.

SometimesI think this, and the prison theme( which I also have) comes from a deep seated fear of losing what I have , as aside from OCD I have a lovely life.

My mum could not deal with anything when I was a child and taught me to fear everything which could also be part of it,though if something happens, like my child has an accident, I deal with it just fine.

I would love to be free of this horrific guilt , when I would never intentionally harm anyone or do something bad.

 

 

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I know what you mean. I am always consumed by fear of something terrible happening but when things happen in real life, like you say, I deal with them just fine. I get really frustrated because like you I have a good life and I should be happy. I've got an amazing husband, a good job, a lovely family.  What upsets me is that I know when I'm old and at the end of my life I'm going to be so annoyed that I wasted so much of my life worrying about things that didn't mean anything instead of just enjoying life. I also tell myself if I was a bad person I wouldn't worry about being a bad person, I just wouldn't care. Isn't it crazy that your mind can make you feel guilty for something that in all likelihood you haven't done?  

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Yes you are right . I'm 46 and my earliest memory of this is at 19;so I feel like I have wasted a lot of my life not being able to be happy because if the guilt. So far none of them have ever been true but each time I think but what if this time it is. My mind can find evidence to fit my worry.

Meds help, and disciplining myself not to ruminate helps. Speaking to someone who is level headed helps too but I need to watch this doesn't slip into reassurance.

I really want to try and understand why I am like this with a view to being able to change it. I have brief periods where im ok but they are short lived and I am on hyperalert not to do anything where I may harm someone so it really restricts what I can do. So I won't cook for someone  and things like that. If I don't do something less can go wrong.

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I have always suffered from anxiety and have been diagnosed with GAD but it's only the past year that I've developed symptoms of OCD. I thought I was going crazy at first until I started to read about different types of OCD.  I didn't have much knowledge of OCD and like a lot of people I associated it with checking OCD and contamination OCD. I had no idea about all the different ways it can manifest.  

Have you heard of Ali Greymond and Mark Freeman? They are both ex-sufferers who now help others and I find their videos of YouTube really helpful.

Edited by PinkPrincess1981
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I thought they made a mistake when they said I had OCD  but now I see that it is.

My mum was very over protective to the extreme so I never learned how to guage what is and isn't a risk . I also had a very bad experience with a horrible neighbour which went on for a few years and had left me with PTSD symptoms. I was terrified to make a mistake as this neighbour would get the whole street to gang up on me. I think these two things have contributed massively to my worrying I've harmed people and that I will reap terrible consequences .

I had not heard of those two ,I shall check them out now thank you

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Hi @ecomum, I hoped you don't mind that I joined the conversation 

I am currently doing cbt and am on meds as well and it's interesting to know that you do get a bit of relief. I have most of the ocd subtypes e.g POCD. I have had the  harm thoughts  more regular since the crisis started so I do understand. I am ashamed to admit it but I imangie doing sexual things to my twin sister when she's asleep. I swear I have never done any of these things and I can't even believe I am writing this now.!!! I also have thought of hitting my mum with a hammer. My cbt therapist says this in normal but what if I am just a really bad person. How do I know that deep deep down I want to do these things. I am scared of certainty and I look up to you knowing you have had many years of going through and experiencing this do you have any advice on how to distract yourself or handling these thoughts as these freak me out a lot more. Oh and sorry for the long winded text I  am sorry if  i have offended anyone or anything and just know I will Never do these things so please not think I am a bad person please don't!!! 

 

 

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Hi @ecomum, I hoped you don't mind that I joined the conversation 

I am currently doing cbt and am on meds as well and it's interesting to know that you do get a bit of relief. I have most of the ocd subtypes e.g POCD. I have had the  harm thoughts  more regular since the crisis started so I do understand. I am ashamed to admit it but I imangie doing sexual things to my twin sister when she's asleep. I swear I have never done any of these things and I can't even believe I am writing this now.!!! I also have thought of hitting my mum with a hammer. My cbt therapist says this in normal but what if I am just a really bad person. How do I know that deep deep down I want to do these things. I am scared of certainty and I look up to you knowing you have had many years of going through and experiencing this do you have any advice on how to distract yourself or handling these thoughts as these freak me out a lot more. Oh and sorry for the long winded text I  am sorry if  i have offended anyone or anything and just know I will Never do these things so please not think I am a bad person please don't!!! 

I really regret writing this now please don't judge me I have had people look at me like I am some type of monster please I will never ever do these I am just worried I am diagnosed with OCD so I know that it is OCD but there my thoughts!! 

 

 

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Hi Hopeful 04, 

Of course I don't mind you writing on my topic, that's what I wanted lots of ideas and sharing.

My harm is different to yours. In that the thing really happened. Eg. I cooked someone food or I accidently knocked someone, the OCD part for me is that I then catastrophise and feel the consequences are so bad that I feel my life is ruined because if the guilt.where as a non OCD suffer would say 'sorry I bumped you ' and give it no more thought.

I think we are the same though in the way that we give too much meaning to our thoughts and the fact that we are good people and OCD makes us feel bad for something others wouldn't.

Other people get thoughts like yours and would think ' that was a wierd thought' they would recognise it is nothing more than a thought and dismiss it. If you ruminate over it ,it stays in your mind and worries you. It is a thought , a nothing, and has no bearing on reality. When the thought comes say ' oh look another OCD thought' and then imagine it floating away.get busy and distracted and it will soon go. Not easy but it works if you can .hope this helps .

 

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Whether it's a fear that you "might" do something  or you "have" done something is pretty much the same.  The need to be certain that you "won't" or "haven't. In that search for certainty you will almost certainly spend a lot of time ruminating, thinking.....a compulsion.

It takes a huge leap of faith but you have to learn to understand that OCD, an anxiety disorder is making you feel this way.  You have to learn that the "Yes.....but what if?  questions and doubts are part of the disorder......and then you have to work at changing the automatic fear response and need for certainty.....and it can be done.

I have had both versions...."might do", "might have done"  I think the latter was probably the most problematic maybe.  I rarely suffer from either version anymore.  My profile doesn't class me as an Ex-sufferer, because I can't say that the doubts never crop up.  They do sometimes.  Take a time like now with the stresses of all this Coronavirus stuff.......I'm not worrying about it as such.....but  at some level I think it does cause stress & if I wasn't careful I could buy into, react to random thoughts that flash up.  The key is to recognise the "flashes" as a symptom of OCD and do nothing about it, to take no action.  These are just anxiety symptoms.

It's a tough time with all that's happening in the world but even so, we have to try and accept how OCD works & trust that despite the current scenario the advice remains the same

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Yes, you do.   Although nonsense isn't quite the right description, they are intrusive thoughts that we then react to.  It's by dealing with and changing the reaction that will make them recede and then as you move forward, learning to identify the thoughts for what they are when they occur and moving past them without reacting.

Many of these thoughts can have a perfectly understandable origin, part of our own safety mechanism.  All day long our brains are assessing information about keeping us safe.  Don't stand too close to that road, my child is too near the edge of the pond, that knife is sharp (along with thousands of other observational thoughts like Don't like her jumper, that's a stupid hat, what pretty flowers).  We don't take any notice, they flit in, they flit out.  It's when we notice & react they become a problem.  I can clearly see the source of my original harm thought.  I was suffering from acute anxiety & hadn't a clue what was going on, I thought I was going mad.  This quickly transpired into "What if I'm going mad.  What if I'm going insane.  What if I lose control (how do you mean?) What if I became a danger to others (how?) What if....what if (brain rapidly searching) What if I lost control & stabbed my Husband with a knife (the only dangerous thing in the house)  And there you have it.......that awful thought that scared me so much I reacted.  Tried to get rid of it.  Hid knives. Wanted someone else in the house......etc etc etc.  It became an obsessive intrusive thought.  Back then, 45 years ago I had no idea what it was.  There was no public information to help me understand it.  I just didn't know what it was then.  It wasn't a "dangerous" thought, it was actually a normal thought provoked by a very anxious mind.

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My intrusive thoughts are all about things I "might have" done in the past. I am terrified at the thought I might have caused harm to someone in the past either indirectly or deliberately.  When I was a teenager and in my early 20's like a lot of people I used to go out partying every weekend and would quite often drink to excess and I get irrational thoughts that maybe one time when I was drunk I might have done something completely out of character and committed a crime that I don't remember.  It sounds crazy but it genuinely feels like this could have happened and the more I try to examine my memories for such an occasion the worse I feel. I feel like I have to be 100% sure this didn't happen before I can move on with my life as I could never live with myself if I had done something.  How can you be 100% certain though? You can't remember something that didn't happen. Then I think why am I getting these thoughts if it's not true? Maybe it's my subconscious telling me I did do this. It's exhausting and terrifying. 

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I find this hard too.

My therapist told me to conduct a survey of what others would do/ think about it , but this never worked for me.

I found during covid asking my husband for his take on it helps, though I am aware this is a kind of reassurance, but it gets me through these extreme times.

The way I have found to successfully deal with it  is I think, "is this a 'definite'or is it just a 'what if?' ."  If I have constructed a chain of things that might happen and it's only a 'what if' then I treat is as OCD. Seems to help me a lot.

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With most of my obsessions I am eventually able to reason my way out of them, ie by accepting that it's unlikely that I would do something bad and have no memory of it but then my mind throws up scenarios where it could happen and the 2 I get stuck on are the thought that I don't remember because I was drunk at the time or I don't remember because it happened when I was a kid and I don't remember because it was so long ago. I try and tell myself that even if I did something terrible while drunk it's still unlikely that I would have zero memory of it. I mean your memory can be patchy when you're drunk but is it likely that you would have no inkling at all of having done this terrible thing the next day when you woke up?  When I got married, the night before the wedding my sister in law (brothers wife) and I were sharing a room and I don't usually drink much these days but I'd had 3 glasses of wine and I would say I was "tipsy". Anyway, this is the reason why I don't drink anymore. When I woke up the next day (my wedding day) my first thought was "gosh I was a bit tipsy last night, I hope I didn't say or do anything I shouldn't have". So then I started trying to remember what we had been taking about and a thought popped into my head that I told my sister in law my mum didn't like her. I felt such a jolt of panic - could I really have done that? The more I thought about it the more I could imagine it and the more I convinced myself it was true. My mum and sister in law get on but they have had their moments over the years. This thought plagued me for months. I was thinking about it on my wedding day, I was thinking about it on honeymoon. I became convinced that my sister in law was going to tell my brother what I said and he was going to tell my mum and I was going to cause a big family rift and everyone was going to hate me. I became obsessed, I would spend hours every day going over and over it in my head, it was constantly there in the back of my mind. When I spoke to my sister in law on the phone, if she was a bit quiet I would think: "this is it, she's getting ready to tell everyone". This went on for around 6 months before I finally got to a place where I could see that this hadn't actually happened but what a waste of time! I went through 6 months of mental torture for nothing. This is what I find so frustrating. Everytime it happens I tell myself I'm not going to let it happen again but then when it does I can't see the thought as just an intrusive thought - at the time it feels real and this is what I struggle with. I guess this is where the leap of faith come in. I have to act as if I know the thought isn't real even though it feels like it is.

Edited by PinkPrincess1981
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I don't drink either for this reason. Haven't for years. You are right it's torture and for nothing. I am just the same in that I usually ,eventually get ok about it but then another one comes and I think what if this one is real. Each one is equally as terrifying. That's why it's so hard to shake. If it was easy there would be no problem.

Looking over mine, I feel like the root cause is that I am a scared to loose what I have. Like you don't want to ruin your wedding or loose the love of your family  in the scenario you gave. As a result I am trying to see my worries as separate from this underlying fear. Yes I might have given someone some uncooked food and they might be a bit annoyed but I'm not going to go to prison and loose my children.if I did accidently cause an argument between two people they are adults and will sort it out and see it's no big deal and not hate me. I hope that makes sense.

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Yeah it does.  I know what you mean, sometimes it's about having perspective. If your worst fear came true would it ruin your life? Probably not but you always perceive it will which keeps the fear and worry going. I saw a post on Instagram that really resonated with me, it said "99% of the harm is caused in your head by you and your thoughts,  1% of the harm is caused by reality, what actually happens and the outcome. Most of the time the problem isn't the problem.  The way you think about the problem is". It's so true. 

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That's a good point.

I'd like to be able to think it's 99 percent not likely to happen so I'll ignore the 1 percent worry. With OCD we focus on the 1 percent 'what if ?' which I guess non sufferers don't. 

I can't go to bed saying I'm 100 percent certain I won't get burgled but I can assume I won't enough to not worry. 

When I cross a road I can't 100 percent say I won't get run over .I don't need certainty to cross a road just good odds.

So in the same way I should be able to enjoy my life with just good odds that I didn't harm someone. I just don't know why I find it so hard.

 

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1 hour ago, ecomum said:

So in the same way I should be able to enjoy my life with just good odds that I didn't harm someone. I just don't know why I find it so hard.

Simple - practise. You're used to listening to the worry voice in your head and ignoring the nothing-to-worry-about voice. Switching your attention from one to the other is just a matter of practise until it becomes your new norm to interpret what you now see as 'risk' as 'unlikely outcome' instead. :) 

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