Scrupulosity and the voice of God

[Cub]

Hi everyone

How are we all doing? I'm sorry to post so often these days. I know this is hard for everyone and I feel kind of bad for not coping better.

I'm not in a great place (surprise surprise) and am feeling rather bad and as though I want to end my life because I'm just so, so tired of feeling this way and feeling so unhappy; I think I'm annoying my family as well, in particular my stepbrother whose patience seems to have run out with me. I'm trying to be grateful for what I have but I feel so badly damaged and just want to curl up into a ball. I woke up in good time this morning but cried a lot. Then I met my godmother for a coffee this afternoon and cried some more. I think I'm seeking far too much reassurance at this point in time - I'm thinking I have to be perfect, but I'm just wanting reassurance that I don't have to be and it's okay to be bad. I feel like I'm drinking lots of bleach to dry and keep the dark stuff inside me at bay.

I want to get better, but I am struggling. I don't know if anyone else will have had experience in this area but I kept wondering for weeks if God was trying to tell me something, to give something up and when I turned around and faced it, it was with the question 'Can I give this thing up?' I've prayed to God and I know God loves me but I am existing in a state of constant uncertainty now. I feel rather like I did six years ago, when I was at home with my parents while my Mum was suffering terminal cancer; I just want to curl up into a ball and disappear. I just feel God is asking something of me that I cannot deliver and I'm so tired, and don't know if it's OCD, or if it's something else. The truth of the matter is, I don't think I deserve to be happy and I deserve to be hard on myself. I'm also scared of sabotaging myself. All I can think is that I want to die before I do any more damage. Everything that makes me happy, I seem to lose or think I can't do it. 

Sorry to be so negative. I'm so sorry. 

C x

[malina]

Cub,

not only is it okay to not be perfect, it is impossible to be perfect. You need to try and stop asking these questions about God because you will never get an answer. You can think about it all you like, you can Google your questions but you won't be able to speak directly to God so you will never know for sure. 

You think God is giving you signs to give things up, but really you are the one who had the thought of giving things up, it came from your imagination and nothing external. Moreover, you have OCD so you know that these doubts are driven by a disorder and not rational thinking. If you allow yourself to give up things now, what is next? How far will you let the disorder drive you? If you allow yourself to cave in and give up the things you love now, it will only get worse and you will be driven to give up more and more. 

I have been where you are now emotionally and it is really hard to get a grip on what you're feeling. It's a spiral of negative emotions, but you just have to hold on. Things WILL get better, it takes time and I think you need to keep working hard! 

Stay strong Cub, it'll be better soon, you got through this before and you will again!! 

[Cub]

Thanks, Malina. I know I need to accept uncertainty. I'm just in a bit of a mess at the moment and feel as though I can't go on anymore. I know I have a disorder and I just feel scared that God wants me to do things that I don't want to do. It makes me feel very sad.  

C x

[malina]

1 minute ago, Cub said:

Thanks, Malina. I know I need to accept uncertainty. I'm just in a bit of a mess at the moment and feel as though I can't go on anymore. I know I have a disorder and I just feel scared that God wants me to do things that I don't want to do. It makes me feel very sad.  

C x

I get that Cub, but I think you need to realise that it is the disorder that wants you to do things you don't want to do. 

[gingerbreadgirl]

Hi cub 

I'm sorry you're struggling so much. 

I see so so so many compulsions in your posts and the things you report. And you think that if you just did enough compulsions you would get some answers. 

This isn't how ocd works. You will never know if god wants you to do things. Maybe he is sending you signs which you are ignoring or misinterpreting. Maybe you are getting it all wrong. Maybe maybe maybe. 

The reason you feel so bad is purely because of your compulsions. The more you do then the worse you feel. And you are doing a lot of compulsions  . 

You must embrace the fact that yes maybe you are a bad Christian. And then carry on anyway.  Do things which make you uncomfortable and full of doubt. Then do them again and again and again. 

It's the only way. What you are doing right now will never ever ever work. 

 

[Cub]

Thanks guys

I just can't seem to move forward. I'm tired and just want to finish it. I feel pathetic and can't see a way forward; it's like there's a brick wall in front of me and I can't make the necessary changes to beat the wall. I'm ruminating all the time and can't see my way to getting better.

I know it sounds pathetic but I can't stop likening this in my mind to six years ago, when I was at home for most of the year without a job and my Mum was dying of cancer. We were fighting all the time because I didn't have any work despite my best efforts and because I was depressed over my OCD thoughts. Or before that when I was 21 and had a long summer at home, and my OCD just got worse and worse to the point of suicidal contemplation. It's like I can't allow myself to stop worrying. It's like my brain wants to worry; I'm not allowed to take the easy road of 'no worrying', I HAVE to worry. I'm not allowed to have it easy. I just keep ruminating and don't get anyway. 

The fact of the matter is, I'm scared to get better. I'm scared of self-sabotage and I'm scared I'll mess everything up for myself again and lose something so important to me, again. I've been in this mental health place before and I'm so frightened. I just can't do this anymore. I think my stepbrother is getting impatient with me because I don't seem to be doing anything. I'm so stressed out, my hair is going grey. I don't feel I deserve to live. 

I don't think I want to live anymore. I don't want to be here anymore. I'm ashamed of myself and my inability to get better; I've been having therapy for weeks but nothing seems to be working and I feel so ashamed that it's not. I don't know how to help myself, or do anything worthwhile. I'm scared that if I get better, something else will inevitably pop up and get me down all over again. I feel so trapped and just want to die.

C.

[malina]

Oh Cub I can relate to so much of what you've just said! Being stuck in this loop, not being able to switch off worry and the fear of getting better, the self sabotage. Everything you've written resonates so much. You have to believe me that it doesn't have to be like this and that it won't always be like this. 

But you have to realise that you can't just beat down that wall, as you put it. You chip away at it day by day, that is what recovery is like...it's a bunch of steps that you take consistently, even when it feels like you're not getting anywhere, you've got to continue. You know that you have to cut the compulsions out, but I think you also need to practice some self forgiveness and acceptance. You keep apologising and feeling like you've failed everyone, but you haven't done anything wrong. Even if members of your family get frustrated with you, they will get over it!

[Cub]

Thanks for that, Malina, and Ginger too.

It helps to know that I'm not the only one who feels like this - my thoughts feel so heavy and they just keep coming at me and making me so miserable and weighing me down. I just want to finish this but it's so hard because I don't know how this will end and whether it will end anytime soon. I don't think I deserve self-compassion, or kindness and keep looking at everything through the eyes of God. I'm really tired and can't handle feeling like this. I don't think I'm making the effort anymore. I just keep thinking I have to be 'better' 'try harder' and adhere to a 'holier' codes and keep getting scared that I 'have' to go on all these fundamentalist areas. I'm so tired. I know these are compulsions but I can't seem to stop and wonder what God wants me to do. Everything's been so difficult and this summer has been so hard. I can't bear feeling like this another day. 

C. 

[BelAnna]

Oh Cub, it sounds like you're having an absolutely awful time. Please give yourself a break, you don't need to be better/try harder or be holier and if years of church taught me anything it's that God is known to be compassionate and forgiving and that Jesus came so that people could live life to the full/abundantly.

I come from a Christian family and I am sort of Christian-agnostic now;I have times when I believe in God and times when I don't! I honestly do think though that your thoughts about God telling you to do stuff that you don't want to do; to be perfect etc. are just OCD. If you imagine that they are similar to the thoughts of a person with schizophrenia with auditory hallucinations/voices that they attribute to God- these thoughts would feel very real but be the product of faulty neurochemistry- the same is true here. I know this because I have scrupulosity OCD too. 

So for now it's probably best to consider any negative religious thoughts as OCD. You can come back to them when you're in a better place. Think instead about ways to get better from this horrible illness! Also I was just wondering - have you had any bereavement counselling because it sounds like there is a traumatic element (PTSD type aspects) to things at the moment? (sorry if I'm wrong).

Thinking of you! xx

Edited July 3, 2020 by BelAnna

[Handy]

This sounds like ideation. Sometimes OCD is a coping mechanism for personality disorders.  I found that out for myself. Comorbidity is common with OCD. Have you got the right psychiatrist?

[Cub]

Hi guys

Thankyou very much BelAnna for your kind words and Handy for your contribution. 

The truth of the matter is that I feel very afraid. I'm scared God wants me to do things I don't want to do and I'm scared of being brainwashed. I'm so, so scared. Today I broke down to my dad and told him that I was feeling suicidal again and I'm frightened. I don't know if God is calling me somewhere I don't want to go. I want to learn more, but I'm afraid to move fowards - I keep visiting fundamentalist websites to check if I agree with their philosophies or trying to learn something from a new point of view just so I understand but am still secure in my own. I want to be sure I haven't 'missed anything' and I don't want to be like them, but I want to be sure I have all the right information and that God doesn't want me to do anything. 

But I feel so sick. I'm not eating and I was sick this morning on waking up - I went down to my dad's room for a cuddle as I didn't want to be alone. I did some writing this afternoon but I had all these thoughts going around my head. It's like a stone in my shoe. And I'm scared that there are things God wants me to do because I felt God spoke to me a few weeks ago and told me to make changes to my life but I'm putting off the inevitable and not getting closer to my faith, which might make me happier. I'm just stuck in a rut and scared and afraid to move forward and frightened of being brainwashed by these fundamentalist sites as I wonder if that's where God wants me to go. Trouble is, after I go on the fundamentalist websites I'll go and find something affirming that makes me feel safe. I'm wondering, 'What if their way is the right way?' and it frightens me so much. I'm so, so frightened and feeling suicidal and just want to end it. 

I'm sorry everyone but thankyou for the kindness. I don't think I can handle this. It's too big for me this time.

C.

[snowbear]

Hi Cub,

I'm sorry to hear therapy isn't helping at the moment. It can be difficult to engage in CBT when you feel unworthy of help or are scared you'll mess it up by trying. When you hit a brick wall like this it can be helpful to take a step back from trying to treat the OCD and instead apply some therapy to how you view yourself.

Have you ever tried self-compassion meditation? It's a form of mindfulness and can be very helpful. If you practise it daily it starts to chip away at the negative feel9ings you have towards yourself and build a more normal, healthier self-image.

You can find lots of meditation exercises directed at self-compassion online, but I've attached one from a course I did to get you started. The idea is not just to follow the script that's there but once you're familiar with the basic idea to use it to address the specific problem you have. eg. Training yourself to believe you are worthy of kindness and that you deserbve to be treated with the same compassion you would extend to anybody else. Remember you have to practise this meditation daily, often for months, to rewire your brain totally. It takes time, so don't give up in despair if you find you're still harsh with yourself after the first week!

 

Meditation transcript -self_compassion_difficulties.pdf

[Cub]

Thankyou, Snow. That's really kind of you and very thoughtful. I'll try it out; it's been downloaded to my phone. 

C x

[Sean87]

On 08/07/2020 at 14:27, Cub said:

Thankyou, Snow. That's really kind of you and very thoughtful. I'll try it out; it's been downloaded to my phone. 

C x

Hi Cub,

We suffer from a very similar form of OCD (religious) and I just attempted to send you a message with regards to this, but it looks like you don't allow messages from people on here. That's obviously totally fine, but I'm wondering if you'd allow me to send you it some other way, or alternatively just post it below? I apologise if this is unwanted/unwelcome and a 'no' will obviously be fully accepted and respected.

All the best,

Sean

[snowbear]

2 hours ago, Sean87 said:

I'm wondering if you'd allow me to send you it some other way, or alternatively just post it below?

Hi Sean, 

 Why don't you just post it here? We encourage people to use the private messaging for general friendship chat and to keep discussions about OCD for the forums. This protects both parties as everything is said in the open and any confusions or misleading 'advice' can be corrected by our forum community. 

Please don't be shy about sharing your story or thoughts on the forum. We don't judge and there's nothing we haven't heard before in one form or another. Plus it's nice to welcome new members to our community and get to know you in your own right.  

[Cub]

Thankyou both. Feel free to whack it in here, Sean. I'd welcome your views.

[Sean87]

On 11/07/2020 at 22:35, snowbear said:

Hi Sean, 

 Why don't you just post it here? We encourage people to use the private messaging for general friendship chat and to keep discussions about OCD for the forums. This protects both parties as everything is said in the open and any confusions or misleading 'advice' can be corrected by our forum community. 

Please don't be shy about sharing your story or thoughts on the forum. We don't judge and there's nothing we haven't heard before in one form or another. Plus it's nice to welcome new members to our community and get to know you in your own right.  

Hi!

Thanks for your reply. OK, I’ll post the message below – thank you!

Oh, and I’m not actually a new member – been on here since 2012! – although I’ve posted very little during this time and only used the site intermittently, just browsing through threads without contributing much myself in search of comfort during particularly bad OCD spells.

All the best!

Sean

On 11/07/2020 at 23:48, Cub said:

Thankyou both. Feel free to whack it in here, Sean. I'd welcome your views.

Hey! Sorry for not putting this up sooner; I've had a busy Sunday! Anyway, here it comes:

"Hi Cub!

My name’s Sean. I was going to write that you don't know me - and you don't, of course - but I just had a quick glance at my very limited activity on here since 2012 and noticed that, actually, you replied to my first-ever post, bidding me welcome, so I guess we're not complete strangers!  

Anyway, like you, I have OCD, and while I've never really been totally free from it in my adult life except for a few short periods, I've experienced a couple of worse-than-usual relapses recently. This has made me revisit the forums to remind myself that what I am experiencing really is OCD and that I am not alone, not even regarding the particular type of OCD that I deal with, which is religious OCD.

Browsing the forums, and being especially attentive to religious OCD content, I've come across your posts regularly. You seem to be quite active on here at the moment and, if you don't mind me saying, to be going through a bit of a difficult time OCD-wise yourself. You write well about this, clearly and openly, and you seem like a friendly person.

I have often thought it could be really helpful to find someone with the same type of OCD as the one I struggle with (not that I'd wish it even on my worst enemy) and to have regular conversations with him or her on Skype, Zoom or similar about our experiences, thoughts, perspectives, tips, etc. in relation to religious OCD. Basically, I’m writing to hear if you might be up for giving this a try. If you are not, then that is obviously completely fine!

But yeah, what I have in mind is basically a sort of 2-person support ‘group’ for discussing all the peculiarities of religious OCD in particular, as I believe it’s one of the trickier ‘expressions’ of OCD to deal with, intertwining as it does with genuine considerations about the nature of reality, of divinity and the spiritual, morality etc. This is not to belittle anybody else’s experiences with OCD – I know it is always horrible! – but for me personally, as someone whose OCD has latched on to many different things, religious OCD has definitely been the most challenging. For this reason, I know I could really use knowing and speaking to someone once in a while who really understands what it feels like trying to cope with religious OCD. And who knows, it might just help lead to recovery for both parties, or at least the closest attainable thing to it!?

As I said, Cub, if this isn’t something you’re interested in, that is 100% fine, obviously. There could well be someone else on here I could ask in that case, but you do seem like the ideal 'candiate'!

Anyway, give it a think, and whatever you decide on: thank you for reading, and sincerely, the very best of luck in dealing with your OCD!

Sean

Edited September 20, 2022 by snowbear
Sean requested removal of a section of text

[Cub]

Hi Sean. That's a lovely idea, thankyou so much for suggesting it. I'd be up for that.

[snowbear]

On 12/07/2020 at 22:38, Sean87 said:

I have often thought it could be really helpful to find someone with the same type of OCD as the one I struggle with and to have regular conversations with him or her on Skype, Zoom or similar about our experiences, thoughts, perspectives, tips, etc. in relation to religious OCD. 

7 hours ago, Cub said:

Hi Sean. That's a lovely idea, thankyou so much for suggesting it. I'd be up for that.

 

Hi again, Cub and Sean. 

I'm not trying to stop you from forming a supportive friendship here (the more support and frinds the better!) But I want to step in again with a word of caution. I speak from personal experience and from 15 years of being around the forum. Please just hear me out and then what you do is your choice.  

It can feel very lonely having OCD, as if nobody else could possibly understand the complexity and depth of distress caused by the particular thoughts you have. So when you find another person suffering similar thoughts (the same OCD theme) it's natural to want to compare notes. That's fine. But there's a danger of together trying to solve the questions created by the theme instead of focusing on treating the OCD. 

When you understand OCD properly you realise the theme truly is irrelevant. Whether it's religion, cleaning, responsibilty or some other topic the thoughts are about, the underlying thought process - and therefore the treatment - is exactly the same.

As long as you stay focused on the theme (religious questions) you're not seeing the real problem. It's not what the thoughts are about that creates anxiety, but the meaning you give them. To recover from OCD you need to step AWAY from the content and look at how you interpret your thoughts in the first place. I think that's harder to do if you're still looking for similarities between your experience and someone else's rather than looking for the common denominator in ALL ocd. 

You want to swap tips?   My biggest tip is to read the threads on the forum where you think the topic is the most different from what you experience. Look for the similarities in thinking process; how the meaning the person gives to their theme feeds on their personal fears and how the interpretation of their particular thoughts leads to compulsive behaviours. 

When you can see how the mechanics of OCD works in others it becomes easier to step back from the highly charged emotions of your own OCD and see the same thinking process happening in yourself. 

As long as you're looking at the theme and not the thought process you'll likely feel your OCD is very complicated and difficult, but actually the principles of therapy are applied to specific OCD themes in a very simple way. If you can see the common denominator across all themes you're well on the way to sorting yourself out.

 

[Cub]

Hm, that might be a good point, Snow. Sorry, Sean.

In other news, guys, the citalopram is starting to work but I've been quite depressed over the past few days. I keep wondering if what I felt was a genuine, spiritual epiphany or just OCD; it felt so real. Anyone got any tips?