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Unconditional Acceptance


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Throughout this last blip I have been, well I guess, giving into compulsion by searching for new ways to recover from OCD. 

I came across a guy called Robert Bray on Instagram. An ex sufferer who now states to help others, largely bases his recovery work on the grounding work of Albert Ellis and his concept of Unconditional Acceptance.

Personally I have found his posts on it quite confusing as i would find it impossible to accept that i could be a paedophile and I don'tthink I would be on my own with that thought. Has anyone come across this concept and could shed a little light? I have tried asking the question to his group myself and only been filled with more confusion. 

Unfortunately to work 1 on 1 with him is really expensive and personally I feel it is unaffordable for most people.

I am confused as to whether it means to accept the thoughts are there or to actually accept the uncertainty that you could be what you fear? 

Edited by Laura86
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Not just me then! 

I may be reading it wrongly but I feel his posts strive toward thinking you need his help to recover but it left me feeling a little deflated when I realised it was £250 a session! I am toying with the idea of going private for CBT but that for me is a little steep! 

Anyhow personally I feel it may be about using different concepts to help one recover or at least manage OCD so it doesn't overwhelm  you. CBT and ERP being the main with mindfulness and/or other therapies.  Still OCD UK promote CBT and ERP so they must have the best rate of OCD management.

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On 16/08/2020 at 20:59, Laura86 said:

Throughout this last blip I have been, well I guess, giving into compulsion by searching for new ways to recover from OCD. 

I came across a guy called Robert Bray on Instagram. An ex sufferer who now states to help others, largely bases his recovery work on the grounding work of Albert Ellis and his concept of Unconditional Acceptance.

Personally I have found his posts on it quite confusing as i would find it impossible to accept that i could be a paedophile and I don'tthink I would be on my own with that thought. Has anyone come across this concept and could shed a little light? I have tried asking the question to his group myself and only been filled with more confusion. 

Unfortunately to work 1 on 1 with him is really expensive and personally I feel it is unaffordable for most people.

I am confused as to whether it means to accept the thoughts are there or to actually accept the uncertainty that you could be what you fear? 

Hi Laura,

I have never heard of him so I don't know what he is saying. I used to think like you, that I could never accept the possibility of certain things, like being a pedophile. But I've come to realise that, until you accept these possibilities, the doubt will always nag away at you. So let's say pedophilia is your fear and this is a possibility you deem unacceptable. So what do you do? Convince yourself that it isn't true and that you are not a pedophile? But the OCD will sow doubt, you can try as hard as you want to convince yourself it's not true, but doubt will creep in and make you question if you really are...and then you're back at square one. On the other hand, you can just say "well F it, maybe I am a pedophile and the world hasn't ended" and where does OCD have to go after that?

I guess I'm just saying that if you allow certain possibilities to be unacceptable, OCD will find room to create despair. If you accept every possibility and learn not to care, the OCD doesn't have space to attack you.

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On 17/08/2020 at 05:59, Laura86 said:

I am confused as to whether it means to accept the thoughts are there or to actually accept the uncertainty that you could be what you fear? 

I'm not familiar with Albert Ellis or his particular concept of Unconditional Acceptance, but for me personally I try and aim for "probably/probably not".  I work on accepting that I can't know with 100% certainty and to work on accepting things based on probably.  Am I a pedophile? Probably not, and thats ok.  It takes work at first, but in time it gets easier.

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Thanks both for your points of view...I can see the points in both of your posts. 

I think that's what Robert Bray works around @malina with the unconditional acceptance.  I suppose it takes work and some days are easier to accept than others. I do understand the process of acceptance, I suppose some fears are easier to accept than others. I find I would be able to accept almost anything else other than paedophilia, I suppose that's why my OCD hits on that. ?‍♀️

Thanks @dksea I can see the thinking there. That makes sense to me although I would have to be careful as I could easily find myself ruminating over that one! I think like @L.M. i would be somewhere in the middle!

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I don't think it matters that much how you want to phrase it to yourself, there is just always going to be an element of doubt with OCD, and you have to learn to just live with it the fact that you can't 100% eliminate all doubt so you have to get on with your life being 99% sure.

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1 hour ago, malina said:

I don't think it matters that much how you want to phrase it to yourself, there is just always going to be an element of doubt with OCD, and you have to learn to just live with it the fact that you can't 100% eliminate all doubt so you have to get on with your life being 99% sure.

Thanks @malina that makes sense. I can understand that, at the moment. Some days are better than others. I find with this blip I have a better grasp on reality and whether or not something is OCD which i see as a positive,  I know there is a way to go but a step in the right direction at least. 

 

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On 16/08/2020 at 22:36, Laura86 said:

I may be reading it wrongly but I feel his posts strive toward thinking you need his help to recover

You're probably not reading it wrongly - people who have something to sell are very good at convincing you that you need whatever it is they are selling. However, when it comes to recovery from OCD this is a red flag that the pertson is more interested in making money than in your recovery. I'd run a mile from anybody peddling OCD recovery. All the advice you need is available for free in self-help books, on the forum, or from NHS therapists. Some people choose to pay for private therapy to expedite access to CBT, but it really isn't necessary to pay a penny to achieve full recovery.

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I know about Ellis. One of the founding fathers of cognitive therapy along with Beck. Don’t know about the other chap. I had good therapy in the NHS as well as bad therapy. So last week I tried to contact a good therapist who went private. Incidentally she is on Ashley’s list of good private therapists. But the trouble with publicising good therapists is that they get booked up! There are a lot of charlatans who trade under the title of therapist. It needs to be regulated and a quality commission monitoring the sector. A hobby horse of mine.

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5 hours ago, snowbear said:

You're probably not reading it wrongly - people who have something to sell are very good at convincing you that you need whatever it is they are selling. However, when it comes to recovery from OCD this is a red flag that the pertson is more interested in making money than in your recovery. I'd run a mile from anybody peddling OCD recovery. All the advice you need is available for free in self-help books, on the forum, or from NHS therapists. Some people choose to pay for private therapy to expedite access to CBT, but it really isn't necessary to pay a penny to achieve full recovery.

Hi @snowbear I have to admit I had the same feelings especially given he is meant to be an ex sufferer,  I can't imagine if I were in that position I would be charging that amount.  Each to their own but I agree a red flag raised itself to me too. I guess part of me hoped for a magic recovery but deep down I know it takes hard work and the program that is proven to work is CBT and ERP.. 

 

4 hours ago, Angst said:

I know about Ellis. One of the founding fathers of cognitive therapy along with Beck. Don’t know about the other chap. I had good therapy in the NHS as well as bad therapy. So last week I tried to contact a good therapist who went private. Incidentally she is on Ashley’s list of good private therapists. But the trouble with publicising good therapists is that they get booked up! There are a lot of charlatans who trade under the title of therapist. It needs to be regulated and a quality commission monitoring the sector. A hobby horse of mine.

@Angst I would agree to that. I have had therapy on and off for years, I can't really see any have been unhelpful other than one therapist who made me feel I was a danger/what I was going through was wrong. I do believe there needs to be more stringent monitoring as people get away with the title coach without having any qualifications. 

 

Thanks for your input ?

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I went for private therapy and one of the biggest red flags for me when choosing a therapist was when they had some really fancy website (usually with a picture of St. Paul's in the background). It just gave me the feeling that they would take a lot of my money and do nothing for me. If someone comes across like this, I'd say stay away. There are plenty of therapists to choose from. I chose mine by firstly looking at the CBT register and then doing Google searches on people who seemed reasonable (e.g. reasonable location, good qualifications etc). I chose mine because he'd had a lot of experience on the NHS in a unit dedicated to anxiety disorders, no fancy website. I then called him and did a brief consultation and it was great because he gave me a lot of concrete information about his practice, the costs etc. So if you are thinking of going private, I would stay away from anyone trying to sell themselves and instead go for someone who is pragmatic and gives you real information about themselves and the process.

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13 hours ago, Laura86 said:

@AngstI have had therapy on and off for years, I can't really see any have been unhelpful other than one therapist who made me feel I was a danger/what I was going through was wrong.

That is similar to my first experience of therapy. To be fair, he was a university counselor who didn't seem to have a clue about OCD and couldn't recognise that I had it (I didn't know at the time either). He completely panicked when I told him what was bothering me and it was the worst possible reaction.

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Thanks @malina that's useful to know when looking for a private therapist.  I am on the waiting list for CBT with the NHS and I have to say last time she was brilliant and I have requested the same lady. Unfortunately only having 8 sessions (actually had 7 due to illness) doesn't seem quite enough so i am very aware I may need to look at private which is fine. I am happy to invest in myself and pay privately. But very useful to know about how a therapist may present themselves and now I'm older and a bit more concerned about what will work etc I will definitely ensure I ask the questions I need in terms of how they work and their experience.  

 

I can empathize with that although I did have a great university counselor however the help I looked in the other year as stated above and their reaction really affected me and I was in a bit of a daze for a long time after. 

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I haven't read anything about him, however you need to give up on the mandate of needing to establish one way or another, i.e you mind will try and make you believe that you cant move on in life and be happy until you know for sure whether you are or whether you aren't.

Maybe you are, but equally maybe you aren't. By adopting this attitude you aren't accepting that you are, your just not bothering to establish one way or another.... 

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@MentalChecker Thanks for your response.  I get that, I think that has become my new obsession if you will. I have found myself ruminating on how I could possibly accept that I could be that person. Perhaps it's a case of perception,  rather than accepting I could be it may be more accepting that I won't 100% know for certain??! 

Like I say after dealing with this for 15 years I am much better than I used to be but still have my blips because of the doubts. 

 

I must also admit that I didnt keep my therapy in check, I didn't keep up with ERP or recovery work. I kind of buried it after my therapy sessions finished. I now understand it is a ongoing process and I need to keep at it, I avoided it because I thought if I did the work it would come back but it came back anyway. The silver lining is I am learning more this time and hopefully it will get me further on that recovery road.

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On 30/08/2020 at 20:00, Laura86 said:

@MentalChecker Thanks for your response.  I get that, I think that has become my new obsession if you will. I have found myself ruminating on how I could possibly accept that I could be that person. Perhaps it's a case of perception,  rather than accepting I could be it may be more accepting that I won't 100% know for certain??! 

Like I say after dealing with this for 15 years I am much better than I used to be but still have my blips because of the doubts. 

 

I must also admit that I didnt keep my therapy in check, I didn't keep up with ERP or recovery work. I kind of buried it after my therapy sessions finished. I now understand it is a ongoing process and I need to keep at it, I avoided it because I thought if I did the work it would come back but it came back anyway. The silver lining is I am learning more this time and hopefully it will get me further on that recovery road.

Hi Laura, 

You don't need to analyse it to see whether you would be able to accept it or not, as you're not saying you've done it, only that you don't know whether you have, or you haven't. 

Without thinking about it too deeply, and turning it into a compulsion, just think of all the things you 'may' have done, on nights out, whilst under the influence of alcohol, that you may have forgotten about...... 

You don't worry about those I bet do you? Nope, because you're not focused on it, but if you did focus on it, just for just a short amount of time, then it would become a big deal for you, and that would be your next obcession lined up.....therefore it's not the subject matter that's the issue, its the analysing and the amount of time that you give to it.... 

I don't, and have never done ERP in the form of exercise's, I. E drafted scripts or deliberately thinking about something and then trying to avoid doing compulsions. I've also read that this doesn't help in some cases, as it's a manufactured spike, and not a real spike..... What I was doing and am still doing, is below. 

I was seeing a very good Specialist in OCD, and apart from her trying to get me to do a few things that I was avoiding over the years, the main things that were bothering me, she never got me to do ERP for in the form of exercise's.

What she was doing, was to try and make me see that what I was doing, I. E, the compulsions, weren't working, had never worked, and would never work, and all that they were doing was making me worse. 

OCD robbed me of around 33 years of my life, and only over the last few months have I made any real progress.

I've taken on board what my Therapist has told me over the years, about how compulsions don't work, about the anxiety curve, about accepting risk and uncertainty, and also about how reassurance leads to a greater amount of anxiety, due to it reinforcing your inability to tolerate ANY anxiety.

What I can tell you from personal experience, is that ANY amount of reassurance will keep the OCD wheel turning, and you will NEVER get better from OCD by doing ANY (no matter how small or little it is) reassurance. 

I have now finally managed (and it has been like going to hell and back) to avoid doing reassurance, and each time I feel the need to do it, I've realised that it's worthless, as I've done it before in the past, and if it really did work, then I wouldn't feel the need to do it again.

By not doing the reassurance, its a lot easier and less anxiety provoking than actually doing the reassurance, and I NEVER thought I would be saying that. 

But you need to get through the initial pain barrier, to be able to see it. 

I actually have what I call my Bible (in a non religious way), some phrases (factual evidence regarding reassurance and anxiety) that I found on specialist websites of Psychology, that I copied and pasted onto my phone, and in the early days, whenever I felt the need to do reassurance, I would read that Bible I created, and it would remind me how worthless an exercise it is to do the reassurance, as it doesn't work, despite what my brain may be telling me. 

I will try and get the time this week to post it into a thread, as it may help others, as I know for certain that it helped me to see the light before engaging.... And stopped me both engaging and doing any reassurance.... 

 

Edited by MentalChecker
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Thanks @MentalChecker my obsessions are more a what if for the future than false memory OCD although I have to admit that can come into it.

 

I completely get what you are saying about reassurance, I like your idea of the reassurance bible and will look into that this week for a kind of help guide for myself. I am going to take some time this week to write down how my OCD surfaces I.e the different compulsions so I can begin tackling them. You have to know the beast to fight it, right?

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43 minutes ago, Laura86 said:

Thanks @MentalChecker my obsessions are more a what if for the future than false memory OCD although I have to admit that can come into it.

 

I completely get what you are saying about reassurance, I like your idea of the reassurance bible and will look into that this week for a kind of help guide for myself. I am going to take some time this week to write down how my OCD surfaces I.e the different compulsions so I can begin tackling them. You have to know the beast to fight it, right?

They say knowledge is power, however I 'personally' wouldn't bother doing what your planning to do, I wouldn't bother giving it the time. Instead I would concentrate more on learning how OCD works (knowledge is power).

The main things you need to know (you probably know already) is. 

1. An Obsession causes anxiety. 

2. A Compulsion reduces anxiety (but only temporary and tolerance increases the more you do it).

Therefore all you NEED to do is be alert and catch ANYTHING you do that is aimed at reducing anxiety, immediately stop it (the more time you give it the more it will stick to you), and refocus your mind on whatever you were doing before the Obsession came through.

This is THE one thing that is keeping the OCD loop alive (reassurance).

You won't be able to stop obsessions, by trying to will cause more, but you can stop the compulsions (although not easy but is possible). 

I once read on a Psychology website (and I saved it in my OCD BIBLE ? that I will post later in the week) that a fire needs oxygen to burn, however if you cover the fire and deplete it of oxygen, then the fire will die down, smoulder, and eventually burn out.

Look at Reassurance as the Oxygen in the above analogy, by depleting the OCD of the reassurance it needs to continue burning away, the OCD will die down, smoulder, and will eventually burn out.

I've been at the smouldering stage for several months now, it's still there in the background ready to fire up at the slightest opportunity, but by refusing to give it ANY reassurance, it can't get a grip on me anymore, and life is nice again.

 

I can even enjoy watching TV now and concentrate on what I'm watching without having to constantly ruminate in my mind or go to a quiet place upstairs away from my family to do reassurance compulsions. My life was living hell for so many years...

Edited by MentalChecker
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I don’t recommend him at all ! He is very smart on the social media but from my point of view he is a scammer.

5 months ago, I decided to start sessions with him. I paid for the introductory session and for a package for 3 sessions ( £210 + £720).
The introductory lasted 18 min, then I had 3 sessions 12 min30 for the first one,  11 min for the second one and 14 min for the last one !

 During these 3 sessions, I asked him about unconditional self acceptance (he speaks a lot about it),  he told me that it doesn’t apply to sensorimotor ocd. Then I asked him what I can do, he told me that there is nothing to do.
One more thing, he gives sessions through Skype but without the image. I’m french and I don’t speak English totally  fluently, it’s very much hard when I can’t see him speaking !
I was very angry then I sent him a message to understand why the sessions were so short and so unhelpful. I asked for a partial refund. He refused and this is his answer :
In relation to the session lengths I adjusted those times to suit you and your specific OCd theme. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, carolinevtn said:

I don’t recommend him at all ! He is very smart on the social media but from my point of view he is a scammer.

5 months ago, I decided to start sessions with him. I paid for the introductory session and for a package for 3 sessions ( £210 + £720).
The introductory lasted 18 min, then I had 3 sessions 12 min30 for the first one,  11 min for the second one and 14 min for the last one !

 During these 3 sessions, I asked him about unconditional self acceptance (he speaks a lot about it),  he told me that it doesn’t apply to sensorimotor ocd. Then I asked him what I can do, he told me that there is nothing to do.
One more thing, he gives sessions through Skype but without the image. I’m french and I don’t speak English totally  fluently, it’s very much hard when I can’t see him speaking !
I was very angry then I sent him a message to understand why the sessions were so short and so unhelpful. I asked for a partial refund. He refused and this is his answer :
In relation to the session lengths I adjusted those times to suit you and your specific OCd theme. 

 

 

 

 

Hi @carolinevtn 

Thanks for your response, I appreciate it. I had this guy feeling he wasn't legitimate and wouldn't help. Not taking away what he may have done for others if their stories are genuine but for me I feel he really isn't clear enough even in his posts so I can imagine when talking to him it can feel very frustrating.

I am sorry you were so misled and betrayed with your trust in him. Given he claims he suffered with OCD you think he would be more understanding and actually want to help others with the same affliction rather than make money from them. It actually riles me...I did join the Facebook group page but felt it was all doom and gloom without much hope or him steering conversation around recovery or help. I quickly left the group. 

I hope you have found better help since, don't lose hope x

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13 hours ago, MentalChecker said:

They say knowledge is power, however I 'personally' wouldn't bother doing what your planning to do, I wouldn't bother giving it the time. Instead I would concentrate more on learning how OCD works (knowledge is power).

The main things you need to know (you probably know already) is. 

1. An Obsession causes anxiety. 

2. A Compulsion reduces anxiety (but only temporary and tolerance increases the more you do it).

Therefore all you NEED to do is be alert and catch ANYTHING you do that is aimed at reducing anxiety, immediately stop it (the more time you give it the more it will stick to you), and refocus your mind on whatever you were doing before the Obsession came through.

This is THE one thing that is keeping the OCD loop alive (reassurance).

You won't be able to stop obsessions, by trying to will cause more, but you can stop the compulsions (although not easy but is possible). 

I once read on a Psychology website (and I saved it in my OCD BIBLE ? that I will post later in the week) that a fire needs oxygen to burn, however if you cover the fire and deplete it of oxygen, then the fire will die down, smoulder, and eventually burn out.

Look at Reassurance as the Oxygen in the above analogy, by depleting the OCD of the reassurance it needs to continue burning away, the OCD will die down, smoulder, and will eventually burn out.

I've been at the smouldering stage for several months now, it's still there in the background ready to fire up at the slightest opportunity, but by refusing to give it ANY reassurance, it can't get a grip on me anymore, and life is nice again.

 

I can even enjoy watching TV now and concentrate on what I'm watching without having to constantly ruminate in my mind or go to a quiet place upstairs away from my family to do reassurance compulsions. My life was living hell for so many years...

Thanks @MentalChecker you have given me some good nuggets of information I can take away!

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Hey guys, i can only speak as i find but as a life long sufferer i can now say with Robs help i feel like i'm on the right path toward recovery. I've benefited from 1-2-1's, and also his whattsap groups, along with his you-tube channel and various social media daily updates.

His method is refreshing, and allows me to look at myself, and my perspective in a way i have never considered previously.

It might not suit everyone, but i for one can say his approach, process and knowledge have and continue to help me massively.

Each to there own is my view, but watch out for that sneak reassurance seeking!

Take care all.

Matt.

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Hi Matt,

Fair enough each to their own I understand and I am happy you are finding you are on the path to recovery. That is very hopeful and great news. I can't comment personally on working with him as I haven't had any 1-2-1 sessions however I found his media content (to some extent) extremely confusing however I do find some of his YouTube videos helpful. 

Good luck on your journey

?

 

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