Radiation- any physics experts here?

[Robin43]

Thanks @snowbear, you have been very kind with your time and I am grateful for it. It just has caused me a lot of distress and considering my therapist asked me to do this as my first exposure-it was too much. 

19 minutes ago, snowbear said:

even swallowing an ionisation chamber whole.

Do you think even that wouldn't be dangerous?

[snowbear]

22 minutes ago, Robin43 said:

considering my therapist asked me to do this as my first exposure-it was too much. 

I agree there. I think she got you to start at the top of your hierarchy instead of the bottom, a bit like the old-fashioned 'flooding' technique where you rolled in a rubbish tip to overcome contamination fears.

But what's done is done and dwelling on the rights and wrongs of things past never helped anybody.

24 minutes ago, Robin43 said:

Do you think even that wouldn't be dangerous?

I think you'd survive it! Children swallow batteries all the time with no longterm effects. I myself have been exposed to radiation a number of times from school onwards and I'm still here.

But relative danger/ safety  isn't the point.

Can you see how somebody says something about your OCD fear (radiation risk) and your thinking automatically locks onto the degree of danger? It's not about danger, it's about changing your catastrophic thinking to a different way of thinking.

Catastrophic thinking is one of the 'cognitive distortions'. It's one way of thinking about things, not the only way to think about them. What you want to do next is learn to recognise when you've slipped into this catastrophic thinking so you can choose an alternative approach.

That's how you 'get over this'. We choose to think differently about the problem. (Or think in an alternative thinking style if you like.) A CBT therapist can walk you through the process.

[Robin43]

Thanks @snowbear, I am so glad to have someone to sound this off to. It helps tremendously.

[Precontemplative]

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Greetings 'Robin43'!

Brainwaffle's responses struck me as the best ones, he's very on the ball there.

I was going to leave this thread alone, as I thought 'job done', but I see some talk of _swallowing_ alpha sources. Never, ever swallow an alpha source. It is the worst of the three common radiation sources: alpha, beta, and gamma, to have internally to the body. Paradoxically it is the least dangerous outside the body. It's because alpha particles are so interactive, they can't even get through your skin before hitting atomes in your skin, and your skin sheds itself.

Are you going to die early. I'd be very confident that you will not, at least not due to Americium contamination. Did you swallow any Americium-241 atoms? Not in a significant quantity. Here's why I think that.

Since your 27 year old detector must have been made in the 1990s, I'd wager that the design has been improved to include a second housing around the first. Traces of Americium dust might migrate outside the first housing because it's own alpha radiation breaks down the crystalline structure of the Americium metal, turning it 'amorphous', which can make dust. The amount is truly microscopic though.

The designers would know that the battery needs to be changed every so often, and that 1970s finding would have been taken into account to contain the dust and bring the domestic safety of smoke detectors up to scratch. The simple solution is to double-house the alpha source.

So, I thought there are two outstanding uncertainties.

1. The 1970s physicist wrote of leaking. Why did he say that?

One explanation is that he was referring to the alpha particles themselves beaming through the air holes. At the time, that fact that the 'mean free path' of alpha particles is only a few centimetres would have allay concerns of exposure, even while changing the battery. Yet, that is easily remedied by baffling the air holes of the separate housings. Air can still diffuse around the holes, but alpha particles travel straight. Alpha particles are helium nuclei, and turn into helium atoms after they're stopped, which would diffuse away.

The other is he was referring to gamma rays. gamma rays are the higest energy for of light. Virtually everything is transparent to them, which (again paradoxically) means that their difficulty in being stopped is their difficulty is being absorbed by you. I can only think gamma ray radiation is a secondary, much lower level effect caused by alpha particle bombardment. I'm not sure Americium-241 is a gamma-emitter, only alpha (half-life: 430 years). I think it's Americium-243 that is also a gamma-emitter, but it's not used for that reason (half-life: 7,500 years.

2. He wrote about 'damage' to housing. I think this is about the alpha particle bombardment making the Americium destroy its own crystalline structure, but eventually, the dust would also start to destroy the metal of the inner housing. A second housing solves that problem, anyway.

That would be what you were touching. No dust, no alpha particles, negligible gamma rays.

If you are worried about cancer, anyone who reaches forty years of age in the UK will be invited for an annual cancer check-up (normal service should resume after this pandemic!)

By the way, I once dropped a beta source during a physics experiment at university. I was nervous about the radiation, and the anxiety made me dyspraxic. The source swivelled on the bench two times, and the beta beam swung though my lower abdomen. I knew that the range of beta rays (very fast electrons) in air is one to two metres, so I was 'hit'. No one else was within five metres of me. I was startled, also embarrassed. I quickly reasoned I had not endangered anyone else, but any damage to myself was done. I recomposed myself, picked up the source with the handler, and carried on. Later I mentioned this to a lecturer, and he told me that the sources were designed to be so weak for this reason. It was really nothing to report.

Decades later, I have had no cancer. I have most of the time had a pot belly. Giant tumour? No, I think it's all the comfort eating and sedentiary work. That's more risk to me than beta source induced cancer. Also CoVid-19, really.


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[Robin43]

Thanks @Precontemplativeyou seem to know a lot about physics? What do you mean by 

4 hours ago, Precontemplative said:

The simple solution is to double-house the alpha source

What are the 2 houses made of and what would they look like-how would I know if mine is like this?

[PolarBear]

While I know you are trying to be helpful, precontemplative, you gave a lengthy reassurance post there.

And no, Robin, you don't have to double house anything. You don't have to do anything but leave this alone.

[Caramoole]

1 hour ago, Robin43 said:

What are the 2 houses made of and what would they look like-how would I know if mine is like this?

Robin......All of that information and the outcome is "another question".....and there'll be another and another almost certainly.  We each have a choice as to how we deal with the anxiety our OCD and doubt cause.  The charity and all leading OCD experts conclude that reassurance isn't a helpful tool.  I have been in two minds whether to let that post stand at all because it directly contradicts everything that we would recommend.  I've left it for now simply because it demonstrates that despite the very detailed content it does nothing to improve how you feel about this.

[Robin43]

@Caramooleand @PolarBear to be honest I have no therapist-waiting another month yet and I need to talk to @Precontemplativebecause right now I cannot cope and this has been going on 10 weeks, surely a little bit of reassurance from @Precontemplativeabout what 2 houses would look like, or what is meant by that, is ok if it helps me to get through until I get therapy.

[Caramoole]

29 minutes ago, Robin43 said:

@Caramooleand @PolarBear to be honest I have no therapist-waiting another month yet and I need to talk to @Precontemplativebecause right now I cannot cope and this has been going on 10 weeks, surely a little bit of reassurance from @Precontemplativeabout what 2 houses would look like, or what is meant by that, is ok if it helps me to get through until I get therapy.

I'm sorry Robin but I absolutely disagree with you that this is a helpful way of managing your anxiety.  It's a method that goes against everything that the charity promotes & that of the professionals that advise us.  To use an analogy that we sometimes use, it's rather like an alcoholic asking if he can take a bottle of vodka into his AA meetings because it helps settle his nerves.  If we were to allow this to happen across the threads (and we'd have many who may crave such reassurance) we would have a forum promoting a course of support that goes against everything that we believe in & stand for. I am going to refer this to the Moderators & Admin team to seek further opinion as to whether posts like this should be allowed to stand at all.

[snowbear]

8 minutes ago, Caramoole said:

I absolutely disagree with you that this is a helpful way of managing your anxiety.  It's a method that goes against everything that the charity promotes & that of the professionals that advise us.  To use an analogy that we sometimes use, it's rather like an alcoholic asking if he can take a bottle of vodka into his AA meetings because it helps settle his nerves.

I agree with Caramoole.

Getting into the kind of details Precontemplative wants to discuss is as harmful to your mental health as radiation is to physical health.

I know it can seem like a good idea and a way to tide you over until therapy starts, but all you're doing is reinforcing the belief your concerns are valid. Which means you'll be a month further behind where you are now when therapy starts, with more ground to catch up and a bigger hill to climb.

Trust us on this. We've been there, made those mistakes ourselves, and regretted it. Never get sucked into conversations that treat your OCD beliefs as if they were something genuine to worry about.

[Robin43]

Thanks @snowbear and @Caramoole but honestly, I cannot function at the minute, I can't even bear to get up in the mornings. There is a difference between doing ERP exposures and actually putting you at risk, and the 3 Radiation Protection Officers I spoke to all agree I was being put at risk, one said it was a foolish thing and the other from the Health and Safety Executive asked for the therapists name.

Edited April 26, 2021 by Robin43
Forgot to tag people

[Caramoole]

How is holding on to this fear helping you?  If you've suffered any damage, then you have.  No amount of understanding it will change that a d you'd have to find a way of dealing with it.

For what it's worth I believe your worries are so heightened because of OCD and the fact that you are using compulsions as the chosen method to deal with your anxiety.  As you're finding, it doesn't really help.  Nor does finding an explanation re radiation.  All it does is throw up more worries, more questions and you stay locked on the treadmill of anxiety & distress.  Maybe try a different way, you've nothing to lose

[malina]

16 minutes ago, Robin43 said:

Thanks @snowbear and @Caramoole but honestly, I cannot function at the minute, I can't even bear to get up in the mornings. There is a difference between doing ERP exposures and actually putting you at risk, and the 3 Radiation Protection Officers I spoke to all agree I was being put at risk, one said it was a foolish thing and the other from the Health and Safety Executive asked for the therapists name.

I still don't really understand how reassurance from a stranger on the internet is going to help the situation, even if the exposure did cause some damage. Whether you were put at risk or not, you have to find a way to move forward with your life. Did the radiation protection officers you spoke to make any suggestions about some practical steps you needed to take? Other than saying that it was foolish, did they offer any advice?

[Precontemplative]

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'Robin43': a final post from me to you in this thread.

'Robin43' wrote on 25 Apr 2021: "and the 3 Radiation Protection Officers I spoke to all agree I was being put at risk, one said it was a foolish thing and the other from the Health and Safety Executive asked for the therapists name."

It was your concern over the therapist's advice that was the initial draw for me to this thread: did a therapist really give you dangerous advice? If yes, I would definitely want to use my physics knowledge to advocate stopping that sort of advice. But what I found out now means I don't have to. There was no risk. (The therapist knew this, empirically, by the way.)

Anyway, forget about the double housing argument! I was speculating that if it was a problem, consumer health and safety would mandate that solution. In fact, double housing isn't even required. It looks like the dust (and that's nanoparticles, really) migration problem that the 1970s physicist speculated on isn't significant. I think I've found a much better argument. Let me show you why.

<<  external links removed - Ashley >>

Just look at what this highly qualified engineer does taking an Americium-241 ionisation smoke detector apart to show how it works. Watch him take apart the ionisation chamber, and take out the alpha source container! No gloves, no masks, his fingers right there on that Americium-241 container (practically the inner housing!) as he lifts it away to look at the electronics underneath. No fear from him, no 'don't do this at home' warning. It's safe. QED.

The 0.3 microgrammes of Am-241 is tiny! It'd form a cube 0.02mm across. It's truly microscopic. A thousand of these would equal one grain of salt.

I consider this video 'proof' you suffered no harm. If that doesn't assuage you, nothing will, and it's off to the therapist with you! Your OCD is a bigger threat to you than your smoke alarm. Don't die of worrymongering!

Yes, I have a physics degree.

This is the end of the line. I've done my best!

Good luck!

======

'snowbear' wrote on 25 Apr 2021: "Never get sucked into conversations that treat your OCD beliefs as if they were something genuine to worry about."

Of course that would never work, but that is the opposite of what I was trying: to lead 'Robin43' through the concerns and show why they don't stand. I don't think 'Robin43' has a genuine case for worry.

If I'm at fault for that, what then of 'BrainWaffle's posts (which I thought were good)?

=======

'Caramoole' wrote on 25 Apr 2021: "How is holding on to this fear helping you? If you've suffered any damage, then you have."

I wrote to 'Robin43' that I exposed myself to beta radiation. I wrote that I took decisive action to recover. I wrote that I decided not to worry. I wrote that I'm still alive and cancer free three decades later.

That incident was during my physics degree.

'Robin43' suffered no damage, I'm sure of it.

=======

'malina' wrote on 25 Apr 2021: "I still don't really understand how reassurance from a stranger on the internet is going to help the situation, even if the exposure did cause some damage."

Hi 'Malina'. On the internet, random strangers troll random strangers on Twitter, as per 'hetty's thread "OCD & Twitter".

What I've experienced in the Free and Open Source Software community is random strangers helping random strangers directly and indirectly in all sorts of ways. People seek advice from strangers on the internet all the time. And many are helped.

The point of my 'reassurance' is that the exposure did _not_ do some damage.

Here, 'Robin43's problem is 'low hanging fruit' to me, because I am actually able to convey the specific scientific knowledge that offers the best chance of defeating 'Robin43's obsession, as per my response on 'ScottOCDid's "Sex & OCD" post. If one can follow the science to the end, one will have the best cognitive model to attack the obsession, enabling a persuasion to change behaviour, thus arresting compulsions. That's the way I see it.

I'm actually a little afraid of the idea that 'Robin43' is to be left to suffer. I would like to try this help. I'd feel bad if I voluntarily didn't.

As for why 'reassurance' is commonly regarded to fail, it's clear to me that that would be because typical reassurance is nebulous. Call what I did reassurance if you like, I call it hard evidence.

'malina' wrote on 25 Apr 2021: "Did the radiation protection officers you spoke to make any suggestions about some practical steps you needed to take? Other than saying that it was foolish, did they offer any advice?"

We can't know exactly how 'Robin43' described the problem. Possibly his fear over-egged his account, but I'm sure there isn't an issue. 'Robin43' likely couldn't convey how small the alpha source was, and if the RPOs knew it was a microcurie, 0.3 microgrammes, they'd say: "oh, pffff....!"

I feel I must cheekily play a meme:

I find your lack of faith in random strangers ... disturbing

But, you're a good egg, 'malina'. More talk later!

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[Robin43]

@brainwaffleI desperately need to speak to you about this thread again, please 

[snowbear]

1 hour ago, Robin43 said:

@brainwaffleI desperately need to speak to you about this thread again, please 

Sounds like a direct cry for reassurance.

What's been happening Robin, what are you struggling with?

[Robin43]

@snowbear for the last 9 months I have spent all day every day worrying that I have inhaled Americium from our home smoke detector. My therapist told me to touch the ionisation chamber inside the smoke detector for 5 minutes and then rub my pillowcase. This stuff is deadly if inhaled. It stays in the body forever. Radiation Experts have told me any sealed radioactive source can leak and I cant get over this. I scream and cry and yell everyday, I feel I am losing my nerves and I will never get over this. I cannot cope any longer.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Robin43
Omission

[PolarBear]

Robin, don't you think that after nine months your way isn't working?

[snowbear]

4 hours ago, Robin43 said:

I cant get over this. 

I feel I will never get over this.

I cannot cope any longer.

I hear you, Robin, honestly I do.   I spent decades telling myself I could never get over being assaulted, never come to terms with my body being violated (the same as you think you'll never get over being irradiated.)

It's taken me a long, long time, but I now understand the reason these feelings are so overwhelming, feel so devastating is because of the story we tell ourselves, the narrative about the incident which we replay every day in our minds.

Another way to say that is we need to change how we think about it. Change the story you tell yourself.

That doesn't mean you have to rewrite history and lie to yourself, or that you have to deny any part of your worries etc.    It means you change the focus of the story.

It was remembrance weekend so let's use an analogy from history (since that too can't be changed.) Nobody is suggesting you tell yourself the Allies lost WW2!  So...imagine there are 2 books on WW2, both factual, true stories about a real person.

Book 1 starts during the Blitz, focuses on the utter destruction, the death toll, the hopelessness one rescuer felt in her battle to dig anything still living out of the rubble. It ends with her describing dreams of the bombing raid, reliving it in every detail. The whole book is focused on the death she witnessed and the fear she feels now. That's what you do with your ruminations.

Book 2  starts with the Blitz, how surrounded by such devastation she struggled to see light at the end of the tunnel, despaired that life could ever return to normal...and goes on to describe what she did to get herself through that terrible time. It focuses on the future (even though it's unknown who will win the war), emphasizes the fact she's still alive, still fighting - and by doing so it creates a sense of hope and purpose. Same experience, but a different focus to the story, a different emphasis on which parts the author treats as important. That's what you need to do.

Let's look at the narrative you're telling yourself about this, break it down into bite size chunks and review the story. Let's see if we can find a way to reinterpret it so you can move forward with your life.

'I can't get over this'  = I don't know how to stop worrying about this.

The way to stop worrying is to stop fuelling the worry. In other words, stop doing compulsions.

I'm certain your biggest compulsion is ruminating - telling yourself again and again that you've been irradiated/poisoned/ fatally contaminated. Reinforcing the fear. Because you can't undo what's been done (true) you then ruminate about there being no way to fix it or live with it (false!)

The feeling you'll never get over it is a direct result of telling yourself 'what's done can't be undone.'

You focus on the permanency and the un-doable part (the Blitz) to the exclusion of all else (rebuilding, focusing on the future and allowing hope in instead of fearfully waiting for some possible fallout from the bombing to kill her.)

'I cannot cope any longer'

Let's stick to the WW2 analogy. So there you are, bombed out, trapped under the rubble in the darkness. You have 2 choices. Tell yourself it's hopeless, lie there and worry that you're going to die because a bomb fell on you OR focus on the fact you're still alive in spite of the bomb dropping right on top of you! When the darkness and the aloneness gets to you - sing! Keep your spirits up. Plan the next meal you're going to cook, the hot bath you'll have once this is over.  Shift your focus, change what you treat as important.

Next time you find yourself ruminating 'I got irradiated, I'm going to die, I can't cope anymore' change that story! How about, 'I went through an experience that scared me greatly, I'm still scared, but I'm going to focus on the future and not the past. I'll be ok.' And then go and do something practical, get on with your life instead of ruminating the same story over and over.

Of course if you'd rather keep reading yourself Book 1 and pretend Book 2 doesn't exist and isn't an option that's up to you.

But I know which book I'd prefer to read.

[Robin43]

Sorry to post again  but I need help.

I am still spending all day everyday worrying about this. Experts have told me what the therapist told me to do was dangerous and I may have got a dose of concern. I can't believe a therapist actually put me in real danger. I cannot cope. I think I will be paralysed for the rest of my life and my thoughts around this have become almost delusional-my mum says she is frightened by some of the thoughts I am having. All I wanted was help for my already crippling OCD and then I was put in danger by the person I trusted. I will never get over this. I really dislike OCD therapists now. And all this happened a year and a half ago. This never leaves my head- I am paralysed by it, cannot function at all, sit on sofa all day everyday. PLEASE HELP.

[howard]

20 minutes ago, Robin43 said:

Sorry to post again  but I need help.

I am still spending all day everyday worrying about this. Experts have told me what the therapist told me to do was dangerous and I may have got a dose of concern. I can't believe a therapist actually put me in real danger. I cannot cope. I think I will be paralysed for the rest of my life and my thoughts around this have become almost delusional-my mum says she is frightened by some of the thoughts I am having. All I wanted was help for my already crippling OCD and then I was put in danger by the person I trusted. I will never get over this. I really dislike OCD therapists now. And all this happened a year and a half ago. This never leaves my head- I am paralysed by it, cannot function at all, sit on sofa all day everyday. PLEASE HELP.

I have noticed that some  OCD treatments are seen as standard practice. Some ideas about OCD as well.

But I would say look at each individual and each context and treat them individually.

I too am wary of smoke detectors. (I linked a geiger counter to my own circuitry to register radiation at college).

They should be replaced regularly and it's not recommended to open one up.

Why don't you get a physical check up to reassure yourself and if you are still obsessed, find someone who can help you with that. Maybe a psychologist.

 

[PolarBear]

You need help, Robin. Don't paint all therapists with the same brush. If you don't get help or behin drastically changing your thinking and behavior, you'll be sitting on that couch for a very long time.

[Robin43]

@PolarBearwhen you say changing my thinking, could you explain what you mean by that please?

[Robin43]

Or can anyone on the forum explain how I can possibly begin to change my thinking? Thank you

[PolarBear]

2 hours ago, Robin43 said:

@PolarBearwhen you say changing my thinking, could you explain what you mean by that please?

Recovery involves changing the way you think about your obsessions (cognitive therapy) and changing the way you behave after you experience an obsession (behavioral therapy).

The cognitive side is about changing your thinking. For a long time, you have thought that what happened is the worst possible thing that could happen to you. That's catastrophic thinking. In addition, you exhibit all or nothing thinking, which is believing/thinking that because this happened, everything is bad, your life is over, etc.

The two things above are examples of cognitive distortions. There are quite a few others. Cognitive therapy can help you stop relying on these distortions. You reframe what you say to yourself. Instead of thinking, my life is over, reframe it to, it might have been the wrong thing to do but I have a life to live.

There is more to cognitive therapy than this but it will get you started.

I suggest you look into cognitive therapy and cognitive distortions.