Jump to content

Precontemplative: First Posting


Recommended Posts

Greetings and salutations!

This is my first posting after a three month long saga of trying to register an account here. I'll explain that, the weird first two lines above, and the abundant gobbledigook below later.

I realise this is an extremely long posting, but I think it is more important that a minimum amount of necessary explanation is included in this first posting, and if anyone has the patience to read through it, it should become clear why.

I need to explain in this first posting three problems:

1) Why I struggled to register an account so as to be able to post here.
2) An imminent difficulty that means I may become street homeless on Tuesday 13 April, or at the beginning of May.
3) What all the gobbledigook is for.

For context building, I shall list aspects of how my OCD has impacted me.

* I've had years of unemployment, homelessness, loneliness, and no one at all to talk meaningfully with about one's OCD.
* I have unsympathetic parents who at best let me do what I need to do only grudgingly, and at worst actually called the police to have me evicted from the family home.
* I feel so embarrassed about my OCD that I cannot admit to or explain about it unless a situation forces the need to disclose it partially, and so I withdrew from old friends and colleagues, and I avoid making new friends.
* I fear my condition being generally known and yet misunderstood, dismissed, ridiculed, mocked, or even targeted for banter.
* I go about society incognito, avoiding crowds and gatherings, hoping that no one will pay undue attention to a poorly dressed, seemingly eccentric individual who tries to maintain a silent stoicism.
* I live in enduring fear that any random person or event in public could cause a spontaneous demand to be identitied, entailing being forced to admit to suffering OCD, and then be disbelieved that this is a valid reason for whatever provoked someone else's judgementalism in the first place.
* I do not trust almost all computers, do not trust most of the internet, indeed do not trust the fixed telephone network, the mobile telephone network, smartphones, tablets, and other internet connected devices with internal microphones and cameras.
* I lost control of my financial affairs, so as to lose money to unneeded insurance that cannot be terminated, to bank accounts dormatised or closed, and to pension funds lost or forgotten, and I would not be able to challenge spurious fees and fines.
* I can no long make an appointment with a doctor, so can no longer be referred to a psychiatric service, and can no longer take mediation, or have therapy. Coronavirus vaccination? I'd love to have that, but I can't arrange it.

What do I do? What one might do is in this posting, the culmination of a 20 month long endeavour to create a possible new escape route from such 'imprisonment'. I hope I shall be indulged sufficiently to gain a traction here on this forum.

PROBLEM 1.

So, problem number one, why did I struggle to register an account here for three months? A single word answer: Javascript.

For more than a decade now, I have restricted the way I use computers and the internet heavily. All that time, I have used whatever computer I can manage to handle to run an operating system called Tails. The name derives from "The Amnesiac Incognito Live System" and is a specially crafted portable operating system (OS) based on the Debian OS distribution, in turn using the Linux kernel and GNU software. The main features of Tails pertinent to evading the clamp of my OCD are:

* the system runs only inside the memory of whatever computer is used, and does not interact with or save data to any storage medium unless one specifically arranges to do so (hence 'live');

* all internet traffic is routed through The Onion Router (tor) network for anonymity, and any data or features that can be used to uniquely, even closely, identify an individual have been removed (hence 'incognito');

* everything performed on the computer is 'forgotten' when it is switched off, unless deliberately saved (hence 'amnesia');





I write "devastating," because disabling javascript renders so much of the World Wide Web unusable: many news sites; pretty much all social media (Youtube, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter); and often many public service sites. Therefore _nota bene_, references to such resources will not help me! Not that social media are a great loss to me, though. BBC News works well enough to be able to read the headlines and the bulk text of a story. For the others, unless one intends to only read, there is always the inevitable registration page, and - well - no, I do not have an e-mail address, I do not have a mobile or fixed telephone number, I don't even have an address, and given my shameful and stigmatising status I do not want to tell of my real name, date of birth, favourite colour, star sign ...

I've browsed this site on and off over the years, and it has worked fine for reading with javascript disabled. I did find being able to read the posts of others, the problems and advisings, gave some perspective to my situation. I did note that there was a mechanism to be able to post unregistered. That seemed promising, but since I could not register an account to follow up properly, I declined to join in with sporadic, anonymous posts, and decided to remain a reader of posts.

Problem 2 below had in the meantime accelerated. In December 2020, I tried making a first post. It failed. I found that the unregistered post feature seemed to have disappeared, and I realised I was going to have to find a way to register an account, yet without javascript, and without a real e-mail address. I could enter a spoofed e-mail address, but the true obstacle was a Google reCaptcha. No way was I going to enable Google's javascript for that!

I went over to OCD Action and tried to register there first using a sharklasers.com disposable e-mail address. No Google reCaptcha meant no javascript was necessary, but the first e-mail said to expect a second e-mail confirming account approval, which never arrived before I had to end the session.

I found from OCD Action's website's source code that a Stuart Johnson of Treeline Digital was the approver of accounts at OCD Action, and I found his e-mail address. Sharklasers.com lets one read an e-mail without javascript, but requires it to send an e-mail. I found another disposable e-mail service with the opposite behaviour: tempr.email. I e-mailed Mr Johnson asking for an account to be created for me with detailed instructions on how to pass the password to me securely. Nothing.

Still, I decided that I would have to search for kindly strangers on the internet I could contact anonymously with javascript disabled, and ask them to create the account for me, and follow instructions on how to pass me the password securely.

A sufferer called "oooooooo" posted his protonmail address on OCD Action's forum, which I saw before the moderators censored his e-mail address. I e-mailed him with a similar request. Nothing.

All the time, I could not tell if my e-mails from tempr.email were actually arriving.

I found a 'contact form' for OCD Action, and used that. It seemed to work, but again, nothing.

I tried a new OnionShare whistleblowing drop site. Upload success, but Nope.

Recently, I tried posting my request to the Tor Project latest blog (one is permitted to post there anonymously without javascript enabled), but the post never appeared.

Then this week, I made an amazing discovery: one can register an XMPP (Jabber) account anonymously, without an e-mail address, and without javascript enabled. I found chatrooms and posted my predicament. Yesterday and today, I have had conversation with people on the internet for the first time in years. Today, one hero succeeded in registering this account for me. However, we were not able to exchange the password securely, and the e-mail address he set is not secure either. I have a plan for dealing with that as part of the solution to problem three.

Still, many thanks to my anonymous XMPP friend who worked hard to help me gain this account!

PROBLEM 2.

Now, problem number two.

Some years ago, after years of homelessness, there seemed to be an opportunity for a way out of that, which I followed. I'll be circumspect about it, but it was a chance to build somewhere from scratch with the possibility of building in those modern conveniences that I would need to be able to mimic some form of modern life functionality, as much as my OCD would allow, so that I might further recover my livelihood. So, I ended up living off-grid in a stable, somewhere in the UK.

At the moment, I use a laptop borrowed from the people who have let me stay on their land, and connect to their nearby wireless access point. I use Tails on that laptop to keep my affairs private from them, and maximise my anonymity over the internet. The fact that Tails routes all internet traffic through Tor means that they do not see what I do on the internet, which is turning put to be just as well, as this is not a happy situation. I was supposed to convert the stable some time ago, so that I would no longer have to impose on their own facilities, but the landlady obstructed me from tapping into the water supply for over two years, even though it was clear from the outset I would need to do this. It's a long and messy story, not best explained here. It's what I want to explain on that forum. I decided I'd better start finding a way to ask for help to be 'rescued'. The people have become impatient with me, as my OCD makes me very dependent on their facilities, and yes, I'm slow at it too. The landlord himself, I am told, is of the opinion that I should not be allowed to use their facilities any more, even though I have no alternative facilities. I fear I'll soon be pushed out. I think I've got until the 1st of May.

Oh, and I need to get a coronavirus vaccination, somehow.

So, this is the most urgent problem for me now. However, I'll repeat this one in a new topic later when I've seen this post make it onto the forum first, so that I know I can post. The rest of this post is important background information that should be understood to stop people from making suggestions I can't follow (such as "just enable javascript!" or "Hey, here's the 'phone number for ...").

PROBLEM 3.

So, about 18 months ago, I decided that I needed to find a way out, and this forum might offer a way to do it, because of the promise of its wonderful unregistered posting mechanism. Yet, if I kept sending a series of anonymous postings via the non-registered mechanism, how would one be able to attribute a series of seemingly unrelated and anonymous postings all to me? I could sign off with a consistent nickname, but I may likely need to prove to someone else in some official or even legal capacity that I was the originator of those postings, that they were truly my account of my life, how would I do this? Anyone could spoof my postings, write my nickname, sully my reputation, destroy the whole enterprise, and an opponent in litigation very well could.

The answer is 30 years old: something called Pretty Good Privacy (PGP). It was invented by an American called Philip Zimmermann as a means to encrypt e-mails without ever having to send an unencrypted password as well (which would render the encryption pointless) and it was done to prevent e-mails being read by interlopers. The uptake of PGP since 1990 has been sadly underwhelming, because while the basic idea was very simple, it turned out there are so many additional options, and so many ways to do it badly. To do it right takes more technical acumen than most would have by oneself. Still, the simple idea is that two keys are used, rather than one. Either key can encrypt, yet only the other key can decrypt whatever the first key encrypts. This is known as 'asymmetric encryption' as opposed to 'symmetric encryption', where the same key encrypts and decrypts (such as when you use the same password to encrypt and decrypt a document). PGP works by designating one key as 'public' (the encrypting key, to be shared with whoever might want to send you something secret), and the other key as 'private' or better 'secret' (the decrypting key, to be guarded as secretly as you can, so that only you can decrypt what is sent to you).

But there's more! PGP is able to turn around that simple idea to instead encrypt a message digest (a kind of unique summary) of any plain text with the secret key, which can be only be decrypted by the corresponding public key. That way, anyone can verify a message truly originated with the holder of the secret key corresponding to the public key. That means I can 'sign' any and all of my postings with my very own digital cryptographic signature. Yet, for my cryptographic signings here on this forum to be ready for verification at any time in the future, there is no need for anyone else to do anything about installing PGP compatible software now, apart from me. Unless one wants to. I can help with that. If you ask.





I intend all of my postings to be cryptographically signed like this one, even when I respond to someone else's post, and (should I be so allowed) offer my advice. I assert I have read the forum guidelines, that I shall adhere as best as possible, but some future subjects may be contentious. I note the forum profanities filter and the rule not to bypass, which I can usually do, but I foresee do that there may be times when I will need to include a profanity as part of a quote in an account of something past that happened to me, or because the name of something is based on a profanity (I mean, there is actually a programming language that includes a swear word in its name, because the language was meant partly as a sick joke!). Does the notorious Scunthorpe problem trigger here? Could we use Michael Schur's "The Good Place" filter? Holy forking shirtballs if we can!

I note also that the moderators caution that they may edit some posts as they see fit. However, I must advise the moderators that if any cryptographically signed plain text is altered, the signature becomes broken, and I cannot prove authorship. I understand with great power comes great responsibility, and I do not intend to take advantage of a plea to not break signatures to be wilful. Yes, I have written two external links above, and I'm aware of what the forum guidelines say. However, the organisations I refer to above are non-commercial, and can be seen not to concern themselves with pushing medical advice. I put the two links there to help others evaluate my method of circumventing my OCD for a practical outcome if they wish to do so.


***'Gobbledegook' /explaination redacted by moderator***



By the way however (sigh!), I cannot view the ocduk.org website because it's 'WordFence' is blocking all Tor exit nodes. Cloudflare used to make this mistake, thinking only bad things come out of the Tor network. Not true! Cloudflare now work with Tor Project and detect bad traffic in better ways.

That allows the possibility for an indulgence at the discretion of Ashley and the moderators: create one of those e-mail addresses for me, import my public key below, encrypt the e-mail's password and the e-mail server credentials within (to keep the e-mail password secret, no plain text transmission can be allowed!) and post the encrypted text as a reply to this message on the forum. However, very important is that I would first want to change the e-mail password, and depending on what e-mail server set up exists for the domain, may only be possible via a webmail interface with javascript enabled. I'd need to know about that. If that problem doesn't exist, I would hope to achieve e-mail access using mozilla's Thunderbird e-mail client, which ships ready to use inside the Tails OS I mentioned above. Also very important, if WordFence continues to block Tor, I would not be able to reach ocduk.org, so I would hope a ocdforums.org e-mail account could be created instead. I stress I am only asking, not demanding, or expecting!

Many would recommend I toddle off to a freebie e-mail provider like Google's Gmail, or Microsoft's Live. No, thank you! First, they require javascript to work. Second, they also want so many _bona fide_ credentials that lying is necessary to create an anonymous account. Thirdly, they insist on some form of two factor authentication, which requires either another e-mail address (so, what's the point?) or a telephone number (which I don't have). All that, before one even comtemplates the privacy aspects of free e-mail accounts, where oneself is the focus of unwanted marketing (Google's Gmail scanning your e-mails for advertising keywords, anyone?).


*** explanation of how to use poster's key redacted for online safety of poster***






Ah, perhaps I have digressed a smidgen, nay, even thrashed the forum guidelines about staying on topic. I should return to the OCD, some might implore, but I already explained above that I think what I have written is important to write as early as possible, and I hope there is someone here who sees the point and value to it. In a way, it is OCD, it's my OCD. I'm not joking.

Over the years, I have struggled with the ups and downs of suffering OCD as I alluded to at the opening. I had hoped for a real breakthrough upon which I could build some escalator up out of this level of OCD. As time passed with nothing transpiring, I have many times wondered whether I should carry on. Sometimes, I wish for a painless ending, but that isn't even within my own means (that's another thing for me to explain in a later posting). Instead, I've trudged on with the unconventional stopgaps I'm able to tolerate, but as I have stated above, I think there's a real danger now that I may run off the end of the proverbial rails if I do not find my way out.

If I am well-received here, then I have five main objectives I want to achieve on this forum:

1) Explain further my current situation and how I got here from originally being diagnosed, prescribed medication, and being referred for residential therapy, to becomings homeless, and then becoming a piggy-in-the-middle between the various organisations of health and local government, until I was left discharged and unhoused. Here, I want to regale of my misadventures and see what the consensus is on whether I was treated fairly and/or legally or not. I think I have been wronged, but I can be so full of self-doubt. You know what OCD is like ...

2) See if anyone can help me meaningfully(!) to extract myself from my predicament of Problem Two: end homelessness, save my belongings, and get treatment, making that litigation if necessary. This will need much guile, because reply-guy-style tips of telephone or internet based services will fail, for example.

3) Explore the origins and actual source of my OCD, and how it relates to other mental illnesses and/or conditions. I'm specifically thinking of such as long-term stress, depression, deep introversion, personality disorder, and autism, but not exclusively so. Here, there is something very important to me that has bothered me throughout my life, and I made a couple of discoveries, one in 2011, and another in 2017. I think I have another diagnosis or two to be made. I'd like to share these revelations, and see what others think.

4) Join in! Make response posts to other people predicaments, offer my advice, and perhaps if allowed even make some blog posts (probably via a kindly proxy moderator) about how I see OCD working and what tricks and techniques one might be able to employ to get around the OCD, and get on with the tasks of life when the OCD just won't relent and the health services fail you.

5) Enhance people's accress to better privacy and security when it comes to computers, the internet, and accessing healthcare services. I have, for example, noted at least one fellow sufferer on this forum who revealed a similar distrust of computers and internet to me, so maybe I can offer information on computer and internet related security and privacy issues. After all, I have been quite obsessive about this for years! What I mean is this: OCD grows in places of ignorance or failure, because it is about doubt. With technology, doubt leads to distrust. Most people, non-sufferers, do not distrust technology, they accept it as is. Indeed, they accept anything, but I distrust. Who is right? I found out by myself years ago that if ever there was a way to actually verify a doubt of OCD, with real knowledge, with non-irreversible experimentation, that doubt would erode. Alternatives could open up. That a particular facet of the OCD could be circumvented. So, I started looking for actual technical information on how computer and internet technology really works, to alay my doubts about it, and join the accepters. Instead, I found out my distrust was correct, and the most expert people had known of the doubts all along. The vital difference turned out to be not between nebulous concepts of acceptance and distrust, but between firm knowledge of secure alternatives and not knowing at all. That is what I want to share, because while it may seem I'm the only one in my situation, how can we know how many other OCD sufferers quitely lurk in technology's shadows, and do not seek help because they have similar doubts as me. If I can show them the alternatives, perhaps they too might find a way from isolation to treatment without being blocked by a chicken and egg conundrum: how to pursue treatment for my doubt, when I doubt the path to treatment?

I hope anyone at all is able to respond meaningfully to this posting. If so, I'll make more postings with more information about my situation, what happened to me, and what I'm looking for, as per my objectives. However, I know that OCD sufferers are an unusually conscientious folk, but I want to stress that although I feel desparate, no one is under any obligation, so don't feel guilty if you don't have any good suggestions. That includes Ashley and the moderators. Yet, if I am to be blocked off, that is a return to complete lock-out for me. I'm trying this because maybe I don't have to be alone, and maybe someone won't make it hard for me by flippantly insisting that I just brush my OCD aside and make a 'phone call like anyone else would. I mean, who would suffer for years like this if it was supposedly that easy?
 

Edited by snowbear
safety online -removed codes for PGP key and signature
Link to comment

Well, hello there.

I read a good portion of your post. It's all irrelevant gobbledygook to me, except I did manage to learn a few things.

After this most lengthy of posts, I have no idea if you have OCD or not, so I cannot begin to help you. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to why you think you have OCD and how it manifests.

Can you enlighten us as to why you take such extreme measures to cover your tracks using computers and while on the Internet? If I may be so bold, it sounds like it comes from paranoia, and while a certain amount of that can be present with OCD, the extreme measures you take sound like some other disorder is at play.

I do not know what the moderators will do about your post above. It is not OCD specific. It reads like a tutorial on how to stay anonymous on the Internet and that is not what this forum is about.

Lastly, you go to extreme measures. Why, I don't know. My question to you is, how's that working for you? 

Link to comment

Hi Precontemplative,

You'll see I've redacted two large portions of your post.

 

Quote

I put that e-mail address inside the public key below.

The public key portion was removed for online safety reasons. From what I understood of your explanation it contained codes which revealed your email address or other personal details. It is highly inadvisable to put contact details on a public forum as they can be misused.

The second portion on how to bypass anything related to regular internet useage I removed because it's the equivalent of someone with a cleaning obsession posting in detail how to wash and wipe a surface 100 times in a particular direction! In short, it was encouraging other forum users to perform compulsions which is not something we can ever allow.

5 hours ago, Precontemplative said:

That allows the possibility for an indulgence at the discretion of Ashley and the moderators: create one of those e-mail addresses for me, import my public key below, encrypt the e-mail's password and the e-mail server credentials within (to keep the e-mail password secret, no plain text transmission can be allowed!) and post the encrypted text as a reply to this message on the forum.

 

Sorry. Not a chance. :wontlisten:  This would be encouraging you in your compulsions rather than helping you. There are other forums online where pandering to OCD's demands may be tolerated, but OCD-UK is proud to say we're not one of them. We don't let OCD behaviours go unchallenged, even though sometimes that means saying what you need to hear to get well and not what you want to hear for reassurance or comfort.

Our purpose is to educate people on how OCD works and support them through their recovery.  :)

 

Now, hopefully with that all cleared up, welcome to the forum!

My first impression is you are suffering badly at present and OCD/paranoia is making your life extremely difficult. :(

I promised you we'd say what you need to hear to get started on recovery so here goes...

Problem 1:

All this coding, PGP keys etc is unneccessary. I'm aware that's like saying to someone you don't need to wash your hands more than once and that right now you absolutely believe it really is necessary. However, that's OCD telling you lies. As a first step, try to accept that maybe there are simpler solutions to this problem which don't require you to go to such extraordinary lengths. As you become more comfortable with that idea you can begin to challenge your OCD belief that regular internet useage with regular coding and passwords isn't safe enough. Gradually reduce the compulsions you have around this issue - such as researching alternatives, using PGP keys to sign off anything you post online etc. Though you may not have recognised them as such, these are all compulsions which feed your OCD and keep it going.

Problem 2:

 If you are in imminent danger of being evicted from the stable you currently call home, then you need to take control of this situation before it becomes a crisis. Go speak to someone at Citizens advice or approach the local council and tell them you need accomodation. There may not be any, but ast least it gets you on the homeless register/waiting list.

Regarding medical needs and getting a coronavirus vaccine, approach a local GP surgery and sign on as a temporary resident. Ask about the vaccine, don't assume anything is impossible until you've tried every possible route to solve it.

 

Problem 3:

At it's root cause this is actually identical to problem 1, so in fact you only have 2 problems to solve! :)

 

Next, your objectives:

 

5 hours ago, Precontemplative said:

1) Explain further my current situation and how I got here from originally being diagnosed, prescribed medication, and being referred for residential therapy, to becomings homeless, and then becoming a piggy-in-the-middle between the various organisations of health and local government, until I was left discharged and unhoused. Here, I want to regale of my misadventures and see what the consensus is on whether I was treated fairly and/or legally or not. I think I have been wronged, but I can be so full of self-doubt. You know what OCD is like ...

If you hang around the forum for a while you'll soon learn further explanations aren't needed. Yours is a common enough story. Seeking answers for whether you were unfairly treated and having self-doubt is all OCD. And yes - we DO know what that is like!

This is a classic choice of whether to go on allowing the OCD-driven ruminations to keep you stuck in the loop of homelessness and hopelessness, OR whether you are ready to get practical, ask for the help you need and start getting your circumstances sorted.

Every minute you waste figuring out the unfairness/injustice of it all is time and energy that could be spent getting your life back on track.

I suggest you begin by sitting down and having a long hard think about what you want your life to look like. Make a list of the things you want to change most urgently and then devise a plan to make each one happen. You may need help with the practicalities of the plan and we'll do our best to guide you in the right direction. However, the bottom line here is you have to want to recover (at least in part or make a start on recovery) from OCD. If that motivation is absent then nothing significant is going to change and the road ahead for you will be more of the same you have now.

5 hours ago, Precontemplative said:

2) See if anyone can help me meaningfully(!) to extract myself from my predicament of Problem Two: end homelessness, save my belongings, and get treatment, making that litigation if necessary. This will need much guile, because reply-guy-style tips of telephone or internet based services will fail, for example.

Addressing your OCD belief/ paranoia about using phones and internet will get you started here. It's a fact that we live in an age of technology and to access 'normal life' there is no option other that to embrace at least some of that technology and work with it to the best of your ability. By that I don't mean seek out fancy codes or ways around your discomfort, I mean grappling with the anxiety and working through it - using the necessary technology to access the services available.

You are within your rights to refuse to use phones etc and bypass all the regular technology routes. But with rights comes responsibilities. If you choose to continue to avoid living in the modern world then you must bear the consequences of that choice. You can't always expect other people to play by your rules when you so adamantly won't play by theirs. I'm not being mean here, I'm speaking from experience. Including time spent homeless and unable to access various 'normal' services. Self-pity because your OCD makes life hard isn't going to change your life for the better. Get practical.

 

5 hours ago, Precontemplative said:

3) Explore the origins and actual source of my OCD, and how it relates to other mental illnesses and/or conditions. I'm specifically thinking of such as long-term stress, depression, deep introversion, personality disorder, and autism, but not exclusively so. Here, there is something very important to me that has bothered me throughout my life, and I made a couple of discoveries, one in 2011, and another in 2017. I think I have another diagnosis or two to be made. I'd like to share these revelations, and see what others think.

Share away, but it's all irelevant to sorting out your OCD in the here and now. Don't let yourself get sidetracked. Focus on fixing what's keeping you stuck in the present day instead of naval gazing into the past.

5 hours ago, Precontemplative said:

4) Join in! Make response posts to other people predicaments, offer my advice, and perhaps if allowed even make some blog posts (probably via a kindly proxy moderator) about how I see OCD working and what tricks and techniques one might be able to employ to get around the OCD, and get on with the tasks of life when the OCD just won't relent and the health services fail you.

There's a world of difference in 'getting around OCD' (finding ways to make doing the compulsions easier so you can continue unchanged) and 'getting better from OCD (stopping the compulsions and moving forward to a better place). We don't condone the former.

If you want to join in and talk about ways to make life easier by getting better that's what we're here for and your contribution will be welcome. :)

5 hours ago, Precontemplative said:

5) Enhance people's accress to better privacy and security when it comes to computers, the internet, and accessing healthcare services.

Quite apart from being off topic for the forum, this is also indulging your OCD. So a definite 'no' to that. :wontlisten:

However, if you'll let us, we'd be happy to help you understand how this OCD thinking is making your life so miserable and that you don't need to continue with things as they are. When you're ready, we can talk about accessing healthcare for your OCD. :)

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Greetings 'PolarBear'!

I have been expecting you.

When I first posted, I was very afraid of a bad reaction. Instead, your reply was very comforting. I may well have broken the record for longest post (not a matter of pride really), so it's perhaps fitting that the forum's most prolific poster was first to reply.

It was great of you to read a good portion, and I did indicate a part that could be skipped and come back to later should anyone adventurous enough so wish. You wrote that you managed to learn a few things. Do you mean 'technical' things about computers and the internet, or that OCD has no bounds to it strangeness? I'm curious what you learnt, and would like feedback (if you have time).

I was aware that my first post would be super-voluminous. I'm amazed the forum software handled the length. I'm sorry that I was not clever enough to write a shorter first post.

To enlighten you on why I take extreme measures (I do not doubt I do, but I do deny it is without good reason) is difficult for conciseness, and necessarily technical, something which after ''snowbear''s response I feel is threatened with failure. (I've been sometimes impressed with yours and ''snowbear''s responses, so I know that ''snowbear'' is well-meaning in her response, but I am ... well, later.)

I'd try to explain briefly, but that would have been greatly assisted by links to websites that describe the problems and offer solutions. Sadly, 'snowbear' already censored some of them, and I expect it'll keep happening until 'snowbear' understands why that is unnecessary, something I fear is beyond my control and is unlikely to happen. I'll instead just list some keywords you can search. So, tell me what's mad, bad, and dangerous to know from them, and why they should be hidden!

* Tor Project
* Tails live operating system
* Electronic Freedom Frontier
* Free and Open Source Software (FOSS)
* Free Software Foundation, Richard Stallman
* Library Freedom Project
* @snowden (twitter)

I'll start at what I think is the beginning of the computer/internet aspect of my OCD/OCPD. (Telephone problems had started almost a decade before with a) a stalker who would 'phone me in the early hours of the morning; b) a supervisor who 'phoned me daily for reports on why I hadn't made progress; and c) a fax machine that would also 'phone me every twenty minutes from 01:00 every night, but which I could not find the origin telephone number of.)

I was a Windows 98 user in 1999/2000. I did not have any opinion that I had OCD/OCPD, and it wasn't something I was very knowledgable of then. Two things happened about then in the general history of the world.

1) A draft EULA (End User License Agreement) for Microsoft's upcoming Windows 2000 was in the news. It stated several things in very different places. One was that the User was to agree that Microsoft had the right to back up all contents of the User's disks to its servers in Washington state, USA. Another (in a very different section far way from the previous) was that all data copied onto its servers was to be treated for the purposes of Washington state law as the intellectual property of Microsoft. A third was that by opening the software package box, the User was considered to have willingly agreed to the terms of the EULA, enforceable wherever it could be. (This third item had always been a feature of Microsoft's EULAs, but it was later pointed out that this was unfair contract, in the UK at least, because the only way a User could find out the terms of the EULA was to open the package to get at the printed EULA inside.)

2) A sub-contractor of Microsoft accidently left Windows NT or 2000 (?) source code on a pubicly readable server. Software developers were all over it, as Microsoft kept the source code secret (NDAs were used liberally). What was found was shocking: the source code showed that Microsoft had embedded three cryptographic keys inside, making three secret backdoors to every copy of Windows NT/2000. One was named for Microsoft, another for the USA's National Security Agency (NSA), the third was a mystery, but I suspect it would have been for the UK's General Communications Headquarters (GCHQ).

I remember a conversation I had with two long-lost friends that year, a married couple where the wife was a barrister. I had mentioned that I had lost confidence in Microsoft and was switching to GNU/Linux. The husband countered that he thought Windows and Bill Gates were wonderful and everyone should have it; so what if Microsoft copied one's data, the back up was a favour. The wife (barrister) pointed out something devastating. She told us that, for example, a doctor in the UK is legally bound to hold doctor-patient confidentiality, and if that doctor used such software for medical records, that privilege is compromised, confidentiality is gone, the law is broken. She didn't mention her own profession, but I expect attorney-client privilege would also suffer the same.

Microsoft modified the EULA and claimed they wouldn't do these automatic back ups, to try and restore trust. There was no acknowledgement about the backdoor keys. Security experts (Bruce Schneier, Matt Blaze, and Matthew D Green, to name three) have long said secret backdoors are a big security risk, and even if Microsoft, GCHQ and the NSA were the paragon of virtue they claim to be, there remains the threat of backdoor discovery by bad actors, (criminal organisations, hostile states, bad hackers).

By 2002, I was switching to a GNU/Linux based operating systems. By 2005, I was finished with Microsoft. In 2007, I started using Tor, and in 2010, I found Tails. After the Snowden revelations in 2013, we now know much more about how extensive backdooring and unwarranted bulk surveillence has become. I'm so glad I switched.

That was a lot of detail for how this started, from which the lesson I learnt is that it is hard to know what a computer is really doing if you run proprietary software doing secret things. Free and Open Source Software remedies that, but there remained the issue of interacting with people via e-mail or websites where there was a prevalent monitoring by adware companies tracking who one contacted, what about, when, and even why. So, the next thing I should write about is how I see this relating to me personally. There are things to write about this, but I shall postpone that to another reply if details are needed. Let me say this, as it may suffice. OCD is badly misunderstood. Stigma is alive and well. Do I really want to have to discuss the details of my illness via a medium that is sharing those details with all and sundry third paries, just to deliver some targeted ad? Even when I'm supposed to be communicating with a doctor in 'confidence'?

'PolarBear' did verily write on 10 Apr 2021: "Perhaps you can enlighten us as to why you think you have OCD and how it manifests. ... I do not know what the moderators will do about your post above. It is not OCD specific. It reads like a tutorial on how to stay anonymous on the Internet and that is not what this forum is about. ... You go to extreme measures. Why, I don't know. My question to you is, how's that working for you?"

I find this line of questioning odd (but not unwelcome!), as I did not expect anyone here to consider what I described as _not_ OCD. You ask me how my OCD manifests, and I gave a thorough example in my first post. (Of course, I have other OCDs, such as 'contamination based' and in a wide variety of ways, but I'll leave that for later.) My main form of compulsion is (you'll guess it) avoidance. Here's what's odd: I gave a detailed explanation of what I did to get around a compulsion of avoidance (of revealing my identity, which would then inhibit me from being at all forthcoming), and I also showed just how forced I am to do that by my OCD via the length and detail of the first post. You suggest it is not related to OCD but I think you missed that even when someone goes to an extreme or alternate route to circumvent a compulsion: it's still OCD. (I was told that by a fellow OCD sufferer: you avoid the trigger, you still have OCD, because you feel you have to avoid the trigger. I agreed with him that that was true of me.) Then 'snowbear' cut it down! So now the evidence is gone, and now no one can see the true extent of my OCD.

How did that work out for me? In a practical sense, it let me do some things I otherwise simply wouldn't do. In the case of my first post, it worked almost perfectly until 'snowbear' destroyed it. You see, look what I achieved! I managed to post on a forum explaining in detail my problems. I manged to even post at all! If I knew I could be traced by an Internet Protocol Address, with Google being able to cross-correlate that with my other internet habits where I might be named, I would not post such details about my OCD, because my OCD would arrest me on the fear of being tracked. That is what I achieved. Yes, I know it's still OCD, but I got a result: contact! Now that is threatened again, even before I've got a remote chance of the treatment I'm seeking. Do you see the OCD now?

But here's the best bit of your post (and I'm not being sarcastic!):

'PolarBear' did further write on 10 Apr 2021: "If I may be so bold, it sounds like it comes from paranoia, and while a certain amount of that can be present with OCD, the extreme measures you take sound like some other disorder is at play."

I think you've spotted the real matter, without me having to prompt you. I'm really glad.

When I was in 'care' years ago, I had a long-running argument with the so-called healthcare professionals about my diagnosis. My original diagnosis was OCD and moderate depression. I expected to be recovered after one year. With medication, the depression faded, but not the OCD.

Something I've noticed that is different about my OCD from what you deal with on this forum: I do compulsions that succeed in relieving some obsessions, allowing me to carry out a task that I was blocked from doing. That's not supposed to happen! Not according to you. So, do I have OCD? Yes, I think so. Handwashing: 200 times a day when I had to do 'a lot', by which I mean a normal amount for non-sufferers.

Yet, here's the thing: you wrote elsewhere to 'Sodexo' "In my 7 years on this forum, I have met perhaps 2 OCD sufferers who have obsessions about order and symmetry, which is the stereotypical type that much of the world believes we all have." I do that. I did that before my OCD diagnosis, way back to my childhood. And then you wrote: "... sounds like OCPD, which is not OCD". Which do I have? I think I'm someone with OCPD who later got OCD. See?

Worse, I also suspect I'm an undiagnosed autistic. The telephone problem?: Perhaps PTSD.

These behaviours remain rigid. I've never succeeded in repealing them. Check my display name again: "Precontemplative". I was labelled that by the assessing psychologist on my second admission to psychiatric hospital.

'snowbear''s response has put me very down. I'm generally puzzled about the stance that OCD sufferers are to be challenged on their OCD on this forum, as I was told that only professional therapists are supposed to challenge sufferers in clinical conditions. What gives?

I'll try to respond to 'snowbear' in due course, but I fear another long wordsmithing episode here. I must try and explain why what 'snowbear' has done is wrong. Well-meaning, not malicious, but wrong.

You see, I've had all these arguments and challenges before, in hospital. Twice.

For example, a charge nurse once threaten me with forced restraint and injection if I did not take oral medication, but by then I could not eat something that had been touched, and they kept handling the tablets. (I went for 23 days without eating while street homeless before my second admission, because of my food contamination issues, and I checked in at 53kg with a blood pressure of 90/60.) They told me that I had to take the medication to get better. I *wanted* to take the medication, I *wanted* to get better, but I told them that I really couldn't eat something they kept handling, and that if I could then I wouldn't need treatment in the first place. They admitted losing that argument, and broke hospital regulations to let me take the medication from the dispensary packets myself, along with ritual washing in its sink, the lot. I also was allowed to store and eat food in my own room. That might seem like a gratuitous indulgence, but it was to let me survive being in hospital whille I was supposed to receive CBT. That was screwed up, however, when the psychologist and the charge nurse were each going to be my therapist, until one discovered what the other was going to do. They agreed the charge nurse should do it, but then she was moved onto the night shift. I never got any CBT. Never have.

I'll try and show you why 'snowbear's response is troublesome to me. 'snowbear' is challenging me to somehow (magically) overcome some very strong, very old, very primitive controls inside my brain, *before* I get anywhere near treatment, housing, and help. I am apparently to succeed in overcoming this myself for an indefinite amount of time, that is without knowing when the treatment waiting time and the housing waiting time expire.

Now, you wrote that you spent 40 years or so keeping the 'dark secret' that you had streams of unbidden thoughts from your monstrous id that convinced you that you were a paedophile. You had to summon up a massive amount of courage to confess this to a doctor, fearing arrest, just like a sufferer reported recently here.

So, let me ask you this: how far do you think you would have got if that doctor had said to you: "go to the police first, report to them everything you told me, and only if they say you are not a paedophile will I accept that you have OCD and treat you."? Or how about this: what if you visited this forum, and found a policy statement saying: "If you are not sure if you are a paedophile, please report to the police first, and only come back here after they have exonerated you."? And also: what if you knew that police reports were publicly available, and anyone interested could find out what you (a named individual) went to the police about?

Some empathy, please. Access to housing and treatment unchallenged first. Then treatment can do the challengingwhen I'm housed in a manner that my OCD doesn't render unbearable.

I'm going to have to cut this reply short here, it gets too long (!). I want to make some other replies to some other sufferers (with cryptographic signatures) first, to see if: a) I'm doing any good with my ideas/suggestions/replies (the chappie who helped me create this account told me he thought I had spent so long being isolated that I might have poor judgement in communicating), and b) the cryptographic signatures are left alone (seriously, why remove them?). If they get stripped, that takes some important future options away from me and I'm not sure I can carry on on this forum, even if there's no others I can go to.

Take care, 'PolarBear'!


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iHUEARYKAB0WIQRccIQXi2jN8TepJAtca12sSb8X4wUCYIMnzwAKCRBca12sSb8X
494iAP44Vvab+WgAMaPrXOib/NPiqbEgDcilOsnDwLz/VMNahQD/QZbzCtrK+akS
3T4wlX/MP8h4j5RKBCCWpEyPvq3GWw4=
=ZfJs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Link to comment
14 hours ago, Precontemplative said:

snowbear''s response has put me very down. I'm generally puzzled about the stance that OCD sufferers are to be challenged on their OCD on this forum, as I was told that only professional therapists are supposed to challenge sufferers in clinical conditions. What gives?

The forum is a charity, run by sufferers for sufferers. We are not part of the NHS and although OCD-UK has a general ethos, opinions will vary from one person to another.  We are also supported by some of the UK's leading experts in OCD. I believe that Snowbear removed various links in accordance with the terms and conditions of the forum, although I don't want to respond on her behalf.

You do seem more than a little scathing and dismissive about the charity & the support/information that we offer.  I'm just wondering how you feel we may help you?

You are clearly a very troubled guy, living under very difficult and restrictive circumstances.  Despite the measures you have/are taking, improvement seems a distant thing.

Link to comment

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

'PolarBear' wrote on 24 Apr 2021: "Don't get me wrong. You may well have OCD, but I strongly suspect you have something else going on."

... was what I discussed in the above post. I'm am _officially_ diagnosed with OCD. It's other missed disorders that bother me. You actually proposed one of them to me, and I concurred I probably have it. This therefore makes you better than all of the NHS people I had to deal with, but a few.

I'm still to respond directly to 'snowbear', but I'm caught in a paradox, one that has been digging me since my diganosis. When asked to supply a description of my situation (with all of it's interconnections between various organisations (NHS, Local Authority, charities)), I have two choices: either write an account with all the pertinent details, which ends up extremely long; or write a precise of such, which skips most details. The former is disregarded as too long to read, the latter is disregarded as having no substance or merit. I have been round this loop so many times. This paradox has been used against me by the people who are supposed to help me.

'Caramoole' wrote on 24 Apr 2021: "The forum is a charity, run by sufferers for sufferers. We are not part of the NHS and although OCD-UK has a general ethos, opinions will vary from one person to another. We are also supported by some of the UK's leading experts in OCD. I believe that Snowbear removed various links in accordance with the terms and conditions of the forum, although I don't want to respond on her behalf."

I've been reading this forum for many years, I'm well aware of how it and the charity works. However, you talk of opinions differing here. Great! The removals were actions, and they are unfounded. Explaining why here is something I'll skip. Later.

'Caramoole' wrote on 24 Apr 2021: "You do seem more than a little scathing and dismissive about the charity & the support/information that we offer.

Scathing? Dismissive? Where? Is it that I wrote "'snowbear's response has put me very down." I should have written: "'snowbear's response has got me very down." Or is it because I'm objecting to the challenging. Did I misinterpret 'snowbear'? who wrote: "We don't let OCD behaviours go unchallenged, even though sometimes that means saying what you need to hear to get well and not what you want to hear for reassurance or comfort." I mean, offer opinions, advice, yes. The removal of innocuous links and a key that did _not_ contain any personally identifiable information with a claim that leaving it there would be helping a compulsion looks very much like a challenge, but unfortunately one that the challenger didn;t fully understand. I was told in hospital that not even psychiatric nurses were to challenge patients, unless it was part of professional therapy. I'm going to have to stop there, as I really feel it is correct to address 'snowbear' on why I disagree with her actions. My tariness in this is due to me worrying about the wordsmithing sprawl again.

'Caramoole' wrote on 24 Apr 2021: "I'm just wondering how you feel we may help you?"

I wasn't sure when I had the idea, but I remember one therapist would often urge people to "just give it a try". There are things that I still can't even try, but what I did to get on the forum was something I was able to do. As for the help, it's looking and seeing what comes up. I really could not predict what I might find, but I think just the process of being on this forum is something. How do I know what help could be unless I'm on the forum? [Addendum: 'Jumbo's thread has brought something else up. Already, unexpected help is happening.]

'Caramoole' wrote on 24 Apr 2021: "You are clearly a very troubled guy, living under very difficult and restrictive circumstances. Despite the measures you have/are taking, improvement seems a distant thing."

Recognition at last! But seriously, yes, I was quickly promoted to 'difficult' after my diagnosis, but as I say, the story behind it is quite something. I can't explain now.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iHUEARYKAB0WIQRccIQXi2jN8TepJAtca12sSb8X4wUCYIU2QQAKCRBca12sSb8X
4xStAP9R8f0lo9eOVbI1b2VoDdZu/Mcjf/eiv69qT5XkQ6m+xgD/Z3QN5WgLHP7U
FaHpZ1+WLbEHvP7Vy2gmZXlrhv4sugU=
=DphC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Link to comment

Hey @Precontemplative,

I read through your post but I'm not sure I have understood everything, so apologies if I'm making you repeat yourself! From what I gather, you are going to great lengths to hide your identity online and avoid most modern technology. You are trying to get support for housing and a COVID vaccine but can't because they would involve registering for something and you want to avoid that. Am I getting this correctly?

So, can I then just ask, why are you going to such great lengths to hide and avoid technology? What are you so afraid of or think is going to happen to you?

Anyway, you sound like a really intelligent person whose life has been taken over by mental illness and you're living in very difficult circumstances. I hope that you find the help you need.

Link to comment

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Hi 'malina'!

no need to apologise for not understanding. It's a complex matter. Unfortunately, what I write in technical detail might takes several reads to understand, and I can't expect that someone will read the same thing several times, just hope that someone might. (I also can't seem to avoid it either, especially to get started on this forum). (Also, this post ended up 10 times longer than I hoped, so if you can't read it all right away, don't feel you have to, just later if you have time and the curiosity.) _I_ don't mind repeating myself, I'm just worried that others might, but to answer you:

'malina' wrote on 25 Apr 2021: "From what I gather, you are going to great lengths to hide your identity online and avoid most modern technology. ... So, can I then just ask, why are you going to such great lengths to hide and avoid technology? What are you so afraid of or think is going to happen to you?"

Great lengths, yes. It's not 'tinfoil-hatism'. I love technology. What I fear is how it is being used, abused, misused. I wrote how it started in a reply to 'PolarBear' above, first with bad experiences with telephones, but then with computer operating systems from Microsoft being used as spying machines. Since then, and after the Snowden revelations, I've found more themes of where privacy, confidentiality and security of computer and internet systems are not up to scratch.

For me, the ultimate fear is threat to reputation. I have worked with extremely clever people in very presitigious places. A few of these people were not nice. I got into trouble. There was a time when I was told to resign, and when I refused I was told by my line manager that my industry was extremely incestuous, all he had to do if he was telephoned for a reference was to hang up, and the caller would know what that meant. I stayed my ground, and returned to work many months later, but the situation was for me never really healed, and I resigned anyway when another associate refused to implement a reasonable adjustment for me. During that time, I developed severe OCD. I hid it. I hoped to treat it and return to employment without the bad people knowing that this happened to me. They would use this against me, as they had often mocked me for my ways of working, living, socialising, whatever.

I think this is the level of answer you were thinking of (I first wrote a technical explanation of how the technology could be used to track you, but realised later you're probably looking for the 'catastrophic thinking' angle.) The bad people are extremely technically proficient. They can abuse technology quite easily. However, since then, I came to realise that that would not be necessary to them as new developments were making that possibility even easier for them. As social media developed about the time I resigned, I saw how prospective employers started examining candidates Facebook profiles to glean further information.

- From there, I think the problem compounded, as I became aware of ever more ways that security, privacy and confidentiality were being eroded in an ever increasing rush to push out more promiscuous technologies. If you have time for reading about how I think privacy and security matters, here's one strand on these technology problems.

So, which of these problems is the greatest threat to me (or you) today? Well, not the NSA or GCHQ (so far). It's the advertising system. I can cut this post short by referencing one BBC news story that was posted just on Tuesday! It's about the spat between Apple and Facebook over privacy controls on Apple's 'phone/tablet hardware. This particular story happens to cover fairly comprehensively the whole sorry saga of what has been happening with online targeted advertising. The link is https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56831241. (Oh please don't delete a link to a BBC news story! Please, no!)

Why is advertising the greatest threat to us at the moment? Well, for one: because we are both ill with OCD, a mental illness that is largely misunderstood by the general public, and has stigma and butt of joke problems attached. Advertisers are interested in tracking what topics we look at online, as that is how targeted advertising works. Sounds great?

Well, if you want to keep your condition confidential because of that stigma, you have a problem. The advertising data brokers will not only find it out, but sell that to the highest bidder (Google is in the lead here). I read a post from someone in the advertising industry who reported that typical entries against people's personal identities were things like "daughter died in a car crash" (hint for claims lawyers), and "possibly bipolar" (hint for pharmacy companies). Another pointed out that targeted advertising is not to benefit you by selling you what you really want, it is to sell you something that you don't want.

Now, we with OCD have largely been claimed to have been adversely affected by the pandemic (though I've had a better time because of it, paradoxically). Imagine how targeted advertising works for an OCD sufferer. I mean a common tactic of adverting is the FUD technique: Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. Which advert (on television) did I detest the most? The Dettol floor cleaner advert. I am _so_ glad Dettol do not know about me, because they would plague me with offers I do not want, and they will not care about doing it loudly and obviously.

The next level of threat is from private data mining companies, such as Palantir, and leaks from 'cyber-attacks' ('cyber' is such a faddy term used by politicians and journalists who just do not do detail). The excruciating problem here is the govermnent are over-enthusiastic in handing over confidential patient data wth gusto, or under-enthusiastic over data security. Private companies are similar, even though these companies like to consider databases of your records to be their intellectual property. Privacy policies tend to be lengthier and more incomprehansible than my longest post, and if anything seem to say "We promise to keep your data confidential until no sooner than we change our minds about it and share it willy-nilly with anyone we like."

Only then do we come onto government intrusion, as per Snowden. This is for most very unlikely. However, for me there is a potential threat. This relates to your next question:

'malina' wrote on 25 Apr 2021: "You are trying to get support for housing and a COVID vaccine but can't because they would involve registering for something and you want to avoid that."

I tried to get the right kind of housing a long time ago. It was an impossible situation. On top of the treatment waiting time unworkability, I found so many OCD issues with the flat and the estate, that I had a driving accident (minor, but a tyre was blown) due to the stress of it stealing my attentiveness, and did not eat or drink for three days after that accident. I had to decline the flat, at which point the council lawyer jumped up and claimed the council had fulfilled its legal obligation, and everyone left, including the Adult Social Services worker who had previously told me her opinion was that I had lost capacity to arrange my own accommodation. There's way more to that, for example, how I got the ICO on to the LA about their unsecured bidding website, but I'll skip it for now.

Now, I would like to litigate about this, but there's too many OCD problems up front there, primarily that I've found that laywer firms typically use _no_ security on there web pages to contact them about one's case. Even if I got past that problem, the Law would be 'slow' to see my case. I also do not trust the authorities to play fair, and they have the RIPA Act 2003 on their side, which authorises them to use all this spying technology against me. Finally, if I did approach another Local Authority, the Localism Act 2011 also works against me, and should the new LA learn of my previous attempt, I'm sure they would want to drop me as fast as they can, citing that I have been 'served' already.

For the Covid vaccine, like I'm not a tinfoil-hatter, I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I can't swallow medicine, but I can take injections*. (There's just the clothes (sleeve) problem to deal with, but that's doable with some co-operation from the vaccinator about my OCD.) It is the online registration that is the problem. Again, there are so. many. OCD. aspects to this, it's just too much.

'malina' wrote on 25 Apr 2021: "Anyway, you sound like a really intelligent person ..."

Aw, thanks! But I feel like a square peg in around hole, and pretty much always have.

'malina' wrote on 25 Apr 2021: "... whose life has been taken over by mental illness and you're living in very difficult circumstances. I hope that you find the help you need."

I sometimes have this vision of me in the future being world-famous as this homeless OCD sufferer who took on the authorities and won, and that afterwards everyone knew what OCD was really all about, and the powers that be were shamed into acting fully on housing and mental illness.

See, if there was no stigma, no jokes like Ashley mentioned once, no head patting by doctors and psychiatrists, and the relatives and general public didn't misunderstand or dismiss OCD, I wouldn't be afraid if people knew who I was.

I realised a long time ago that without those conditions, I need to keep absolute secrecy. In this age of 'reality TV' as per Dr. Christian Jessen, I find the ethos of 'openness' is displacing the concept of confidentiality by authorities and in society, and that is backfiring on me.

I wonder, do I make better sense to you now, 'malina'? Did you expect rambling incoherence that just seemed psychotically paranoid, or do I actually have valid points? Or am I truly lost? Please tell!

* Yeah, the really dumb one was respiridone. They offered me that as pills, so I said "no". When I found out it was injectable, I got excited, but the last psychiatrist told me that I had to take it orally first ...


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iHUEARYKAB0WIQRccIQXi2jN8TepJAtca12sSb8X4wUCYIusmwAKCRBca12sSb8X
4zhHAQDbfTkm6KiyZQKzYezXgRb8N0N2Aj3vocAWRT3XjMbHlQEA4/iFYPPhaP4S
Uy8BbN0cfCzzJbYvPpTfMNRp+vDSsws=
=vg/H
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Link to comment
14 hours ago, Precontemplative said:

Did you expect rambling incoherence that just seemed psychotically paranoid, or do I actually have valid points? Or am I truly lost? Please tell!

I can't answer for Malina, but I can give you my own opinion.

It is clear to me that you are experiencing disordered thinking.

You believe sincerely that the perceived risks mentioned above are a genuine threat to you in one way or another. Is that to a psychotic degree or not? Depends if you can allow that you have a mental health issue and may not be interpreting the world correctly as a result, or whether you're 100% convinced everything you perceive as risk is a danger to the degree you state.

Do you have valid points or are you paranoid? You present it as an either or question! As a scientist you should recognise when facts have been misleadingly presented, so you'll be able to see this isn't an either/or situation as the two options aren't opposing outcomes.

In other words, your thinking has become disordered and this is misleading you.

The problem many OCD sufferers have is the things they fear are based upon genuine concerns. However, they then interpret this 'grain of truth' as evidence their concerns are completely valid and their compulsions are therefore necessary, justified behaviour.

This applies to you too. I think you're right about the potential for this modern technological world to spy on any individual. How that information is used is where our perceptions differ. You fear it being used against you with detrimental outcome.  I see it as a way for companies to target advertising with the minor irritation of seeing and ignoring all such adverts as the worst outcome. It's the perceived outcome which differs and allows me to interact with the world without resorting to the coding and avoidance compulsions you perform.

I think you have concerns about being identified as an OCD sufferer which, even if they were once relevant to your working life, have no further bearing on your life as it is now. You've yet to accept the change in your situation, your 'social position' if you like. Don't get me wrong, there's no reason an OCD sufferer can't achieve anything they put their mind to. I'm not in any way saying having a mental health condition is a lower social position. But your reality is you're jobless, homeless and nobody within 'the establishment' is in the least interested in you any more. You can be as mentally screwed up as you like, declare it to all with wild abandon! And the world will simply shrug and carry on as before. Even if there was a 'grain to truth' justification for your paranoia back when you were working for that company, those days are long gone. When you accept that, you'll find your anxiety levels drop considerably and your paranoia reduces.

 

 

14 hours ago, Precontemplative said:

Now, I would like to litigate about this, but there's too many OCD problems up front there, primarily that I've found that laywer firms typically use _no_ security on there web pages to contact them about one's case. Even if I got past that problem, the Law would be 'slow' to see my case.

 

A typical example of disordered thinking influencing your interpretation of the why of things.

Lawyer firms don't use your coding methods because your coding precautions aren't necessary.

They wouldn't be slow to understand your case. They'd see it immediately for what it is - a man with OCD interpreting the world according to his paranoid delusions and suffering unfortunate consequences as a result.

Rather than taking on your case for litigation, any lawyer worth his salt would direct you towards mental health services in the hope you would accept the help you need to improve your thinking, and by default improve your situation.

 

14 hours ago, Precontemplative said:

I sometimes have this vision of me in the future being world-famous as this homeless OCD sufferer who took on the authorities and won, and that afterwards everyone knew what OCD was really all about, and the powers that be were shamed into acting fully on housing and mental illness.

I imagine a lot of us have entertained such fantasies at one time or another. :laugh: I certainly used to dream of such stuff when I was younger! But at some stage you need to accept the reality that while you are in the throes of OCD this isn't going to happen.

Are you capable of it? Heck yes! Why not? But you achieve it by completely recovering from OCD, regaining normal perspective on life and then taking on the authorities without compulsions and false beliefs dragging you down. Taking them on in the mental state you're in would only be seen as further evidence that mentally ill people are deluded and can't get their act together.

Are you lost? Nobody is ever so lost there isn't a way back, but we have to find the courage to choose that path instead of staying on the path we're on.  I hope you'll find the courage to accept you are suffering from unjustified paranoia and take the first step towards recovery by getting some CBT.

 

Link to comment

Your major problem is being homeless. This creates problems with registering with a GP, claiming social security benefits and keeping body, soul and mind together. I used to volunteer to help the homeless. Perfectly respectable people can become homeless. The top priority is to find a permanent home. Often the homeless were and are treated unfairly. I doubt whether you will get legal aid to correct pass actual or perceived wrongs. The waiting list for social housing is long and many people face the same stark problems as you have faced. Being a lone homeless man it is unlikely that you will become a folk hero. I cannot think of any such cases. If supportive housing is offered via the mental health services this could be the stepping stone to improved housing, health services and achieving peace of mind as well as therapy.

Edited by Angst
Link to comment

Hi @Precontemplative,

first off, I second @snowbear's post! Just something I'd like to add. I think those of us with OCD go to great lengths to keep ourselves safe from a percieved threat, but in doing so something much worse happens - we lose more and more of our lives and the things that matter to us, we lose our wellbeing and our lives become increasingly restricted. In your case, you have gone very far to keep yourself safe from being monitored because of the potential dangers of this, but in doing so, you have lost so much. For you, keeping yourself safe means that you don't have a place to live or access to healthcare. This is very serious and something that you have to face up to.

I'm genuinely very sorry about the experiences you had at your former workplace, this must have contributed a great deal to what you're going through now. You must realise that everyone with a mental health problem faces stigma, it is really horrible and unfair, but that's the current state of society. Yet, most people with OCD and other illnesses are still able to live in society, use computers and the internet, register with a doctor, and everything else. Ultimately, why should we be ashamed of who we are and the problems we live with? Just because we are different and we struggle, does that mean that we should become outcast from society?

I know that there are potential dangers when you use technology, but most people are able to live with that. You mentioned Snowden, but even he has managed to get on with his life and is living with his wife and child! If he is able to do it, surely those of us who haven't leaked government secrets have far less to worry about ?

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Greetings 'snowbear'!

I'm finally replying to this outstanding matter. I think I've had some practice at being more concise. (Hahhh! Failed again, either put the kettle on for a cuppa to read this, or watch the entirity of Netflix (it's quicker!), whichever you prefer!)

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "Hi Precontemplative, You'll see I've redacted two large portions of your post."

Gee, that's my signature broken then.

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "The public key portion was removed for online safety reasons. From what I understood of your explanation it contained codes which revealed your email address or other personal details. It is highly inadvisable to put contact details on a public forum as they can be misused."

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "*** explanation of how to use poster's key redacted for online safety of poster***"

You didn't understand correctly: there never were any 'contact details' or 'online safety' issues. I'm very pleased that you wrote "it is highly inadvisable to put contact details on a public forum as they can be misused," as that is absolutely true and I started banging on about this to my friends since 1998. My OCD from 1998 says "hello!" and wants its compulsion back. You may feel dismayed that you just indulged it, but please don't! Your principle is correct and my OCD is pleased for you!

PGP keys were originally designed to work with e-mail in 1990. It is standard to label them with the simple pattern of e-mail IDs: "Some Name" . The details inside my public key were spoofed, as I did _not_ want to use personal contact details, which would defeat my strong anonymity.

The details were for two IDs:
1. "Precontemplative" < precontemplative @ ocduk.org >
2. "Precontemplative" < precontemplative @ ocdforums.org >

I think you'll agree that that doesn't tell you anything revealing about me that you didn't know before. These are not exploitable, so don't need to be removed.

I had explained that the e-mail addresses won't exist unless someone creates them, but you wrote:

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: Sorry. Not a chance. :wontlisten: This would be encouraging you in your compulsions rather than helping you. There are other forums online where pandering to OCD's demands may be tolerated, but OCD-UK is proud to say we're not one of them. We don't let OCD behaviours go unchallenged, even though sometimes that means saying what you need to hear to get well and not what you want to hear for reassurance or comfort."

I wrote that I'm not depending on that. Anyway, the fact I was now on the forum meant it was mooted. However, the registration page did require an e-mail address, and the first one was the one I was going to enter. My helper ended up putting in one he made up, as it turned out something would need to be sent to it during registration. Also, as I don't have any real e-mail addresses, I had planned to use my PGP keys for signing only of forum postings, not encrypting.

So, you have no reason to have deleted my PGP public key.

Now, you went through my Problems 1, 2 and 3.

So, Problems 1 and 3 first:

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "All this coding, PGP keys etc is unneccessary."

The cryptographic signing is necessary for several reasons:

* I'm not the unique knower of the forum account password;
* to allow anyone to verify that the posting as displayed is the posting I wrote (you broke that first one already, and Ashley broke another);
* to be able to prove ownership of the postings in the future, should I need to for legal reasons;
* further to that, that I may be writing the world's longest suicide note.

However, there's no possibility for anyone to check the signatures now, because you deleted the key. I've explained why your reasons for doing so were wrong. Yet, can you put it back? I can put it back, but can you?

The PGP key further allows for the possibility of sending me sensitive information secretly.

By the way, there's no coding. You're not using the word 'coding' correctly. 'Coding' is a technical term by software engineers for programming or scripting. I'm not a programmer. There's no programming/scripting by me here.

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "... you can begin to challenge your OCD belief that regular internet useage with regular coding and passwords isn't safe enough. Gradually reduce the compulsions you have around this issue - such as researching alternatives, using PGP keys to sign off anything you post online etc. Though you may not have recognised them as such, these are all compulsions which feed your OCD and keep it going."

Okay, "regular internet useage" well that phrasage tells me a lot. I did expect this, as I have had this many times before, but most people don't really understand what their computers are doing on or off the internet anyway. I mean, I could ask whether you think people should ensure their browsers browse ocdforums.org with Transport Layer Security or not? and you may struggle to know what you should say. See, the problem is that you wrote "regular" but that's a moving target, always has been. So tell me, what is "regular internet useage"? [Sp.: 'usage'. Ducks, runs away ... ]

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "Gradually reduce the compulsions you have around this issue - such as researching alternatives, using PGP keys to sign off anything you post online etc."

I think I'm beginning to see a problem pattern with the advice given on this forum. There's a saying: "when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail." Whenever I state I had a problem of avoidance with something due to my OCD, but I found a workaround for it, you hit the _workaround_ with your hammer, and refuse the countenance the original technical problem.

I know that my workaround is _still_ OCD. I used to have a good friend who also had OCD, and he wisely told me: "even if you find a way around your OCD to avoid the first problem of your OCD, it's still OCD." I _know_ that! I've known that for so, so long, but I don't have the luxury to wait for treatment and end up avoiding in the meantime, so I have to find workarounds. That's what I did, and now I can do _something_ instead of _nothing_, despite still having OCD.

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "Though you may not have recognised them as such, these are all compulsions which feed your OCD and keep it going."

I totally recognise the avoidance of poor operational security practices is a compulsion. Again, you assume ignorance on my part. I had enough discussions, sessions and seminars with therapists and psychologists in hospital to know the 'theory'. However, reverting to conducting the same poor operational security practices as before that most people do, which they do out of ignorance, simply because they happen to be the majority, is just stupid!

I researched whether the technical problems were real (they are, they are widely acknowledged), and found that alternatives have been developed, more are being developed.

The technical problems exist independently of my OCD, and there are many who don't have OCD who are addressing them. You talk about recovery as not addressing these technical problems, but what I need you to realise is that the changes that will happen to the internet will quite likely come about before I ever recover from my OCD. In which case, why hit my OCD workaround with your 'bad OCD!' hammer?

Try this 'snowbear': next time you see someone post their e-mail address on this forum, just ignore it! That's the way it was twenty years ago. Feel anxious if you don't? Must be OCD! Don't do the compulsion of deleting that e-mail address! Don't get Ashley to do it either, as he would be encouraging you in your compulsions rather than helping you!

And yet, it is correct to remove the e-mail address, isn't it.

Now Problem 3:

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "Problem 3: At it's root cause this is actually identical to problem 1, so in fact you only have 2 problems to solve! :)"

Well, no. 'Problem 1' was how to get around the javascript, e-mail and password problems of account registration with this forum. I cracked that.

'Problem 3' was about how to guarantee my pseudo identity in perpetuity, and how to tie my true identity to the pseudo identity in the future if I needed to. I also cracked that, except you've impeded it by deleting my PGP public key. You thought they were the same because 'it's all OCD'. You just make everything OCD with that 'OCD bad!' hammer of yours.

Okay, look, I don't want to be grumbly. So let me move along.

Now Problem 2 I'll better deal with if I look ahead to show where I think you are assuming that I like many coming here have poor insight.

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "Now, hopefully with that all cleared up, welcome to the forum!"

Thank you!

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "My first impression is you are suffering badly at present and OCD/paranoia is making your life extremely difficult. :( I promised you we'd say what you need to hear to get started on recovery so here goes..."

I've said elsewhere on this thread that I'm always faced with the same intractable problem about my OCD and extremely difficult life: either I write long postings anticipating all questions but risk minimal or no reading at all, or I write shorter postings but risk confusion or presumption that must be remedied by following up with the rest of the detail after all. It is like a curse, and it does my head in.

The part that was missing to cause you to say "... get started on recovery ..." is like this:

I have been through:

* one and a half decades of the 'healthcare system';
* hundreds of GP appointments;
* scores of Mind advocacy and floating support appointments;
* six Mind floating support workers and two Mind treatment advocates;
* dozens of psychiatry appointments;
* thirteen psychiatrists;
* a multitude of evictions by my parents (including one with the police being called);
* four years of homelessness (not counting this stable as homelessness);
* one year of 'sofa surfing';
* 21 days of street homelessness without eating;
* several sessions of no eating for between three and five days;
* two periods without having a bath or removing/changing any clothes at all of eight months and 11 months;
* two referrals to ARDU type places (both lapsed due to my homelessness);
* two assessments showing extreme OCD on the original Y-BOCS scale;
* three care co-ordinators;
* two psychiatric hospital stays (the first ending in eviction onto the street);
* one rehabilitation lodge stay (ending in eviction onto the street);
* being poo-poo'd by five healthcare staff at this lodge that I would never get the points for council housing;
* several surreal encounters with the local council's housing division;
* one meeting with the head of Adult Social Services (who apologised profusely, but explained he couldn't tell the NHS what to do);
* a surreal 'best interests' saga under Adult Social Services to force the council's housing division to admit my eligibility for housing and ~250 points;
* a two foot long beard;
* half-inch long thumbnails;
* begging, stalking, propositioning, ridiculing, fasle accusations, aggression, thievery, and man-handling (from staff, patients, and street people);
* and I have been pooped out of the back end of all of it, reeling from the utter Kafka-esqueness of it all, and ended up here.

Okay, I suppose I should cut you some slack that I didn't mention this before. However, you can now see that I am no n00b to the mental health system. So, your following proposals are in no way new to me. To show you, let's go to what you wrote about 'Problem 2'.

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "Problem 2: ... Go speak to someone at Citizens advice or approach the local council and tell them you need accomodation. There may not be any, but ast least it gets you on the homeless register/waiting list.

Do you really think I never thought of those things? Of course I did. I've thought about them a lot. "How about ... ?" "What if ... ?" "Is there a way to ... ?" But "go speak to"? In this pandemic? Citizens advice require appointments by telephone, and I know they will simply tell me to go to the local council. "Approach the local council"? Please elaborate! How approachable do you think a local council is these days. How do I answer the question "can we take your contact details, please?"

Look, the only way I could end my homelessness is to leave this stable, wander into the nearest town, and be found by an outreach team lying asleep somewhere near the town centre. That's how it works. I have problems, though, Because Of My OCD:

1. I can't lie down to sleep, and the outreach teams are told only to approach those actually lying down, not sitting or standing, else it is too easy to pretend to be homeless.
2. Town centres are dangerous places, I always avoided them at night when I was street homeless, and the outreach teams only patrol the centres.
3. I can stop eating, but I can't take bottled water with me to drink now like last time, because I need to enclose the bottle in a clean, tied-up plastic bag from a supermarket. Plastic bags are totally gone now. It will take several days to be found by an outreach team.
4. If I were found, my experience is that housing officials are extremely poor at understanding mental illness impact. Yes, one can tell them that one has OCD, and they'll think "Okay, that's a mental illness, so you tick a box!", but they won't understand it means I can't live in shared accomodation.
5. As for the waiting list, my 'helper' wondered what you were thinking when I told him that housing waiting lists are typically seven to 15 years.

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "Regarding medical needs and getting a coronavirus vaccine, approach a local GP surgery and sign on as a temporary resident."

Again with the "approach" word! Look, GP surgeries have become telephone or e-mail only. If I try the telephone, I go mute when stressed over being asked for contact details. If I try e-mail, my arms paralyse over the stress there as well.

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "... don't assume anything is impossible until you've tried every possible route to solve it."

I think about this all the time, but every way is blocked, now not just by my OCD, but also my poverty and homelssness to boot. If you aren't going to consider that it is possible that all of a finite number of routes can be unviable, then that's just messing me around.

The way I used to do this was to actually walk in, ask someone for somewhere private to talk, and explain my OCD. I did this at Mind, for example. If they refused to let me talk in private, that was game over. Otherwise, they would quickly go to 'contact details' and now I would have to say I have none.

Now, you started going through my objectives. Thanks for the efforts! (I suppose even if I'm disappointed, I must remember you may often not be thanked.)

So, objective number 1). [About unfairness.]

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "If you hang around the forum for a while you'll soon learn further explanations aren't needed. Yours is a common enough story. Seeking answers for whether you were unfairly treated and having self-doubt is all OCD. And yes - we DO know what that is like!"

Well, given what I listed above, can you still tell me that you or anyone else had those kinds of problems? Can you show me?

'Steven20' is the only one I've seen who is being messed about, but he's still only at the beginning.

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "This is a classic choice of whether to go on allowing the OCD-driven ruminations to keep you stuck in the loop of homelessness and hopelessness, OR whether you are ready to get practical, ask for the help you need and start getting your circumstances sorted."

So, maybe not such a classic choice? Who here has been made street homeless straight after hospital, twice? But really I see the problem as this use of the word "choice". It really gets rich when an OCD sufferer gets levelled with "your sufferering is your choice". Let's just assume everyone has the same level of wretched feelings, and the ones who fail to change are just wimps. In fact, why not just write off OCD as a real mental illness altogether. Let's have the rest of the healthcare staff internalise the housing division mantra of "unwise decisions" like my second care co-ordinator did.

Look, of course you should mention that sufferers contemplate resisting their compulsions, because brain plasticity does allow for changes that will cause the feeling to subside. That's true. But most are well supported and can accommodate the disruption, let alone overcome the feelings. Some of us are in a worse position than others, and I'm in a position where I do not have the time or luxury to await these changes.

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "Every minute you waste figuring out the unfairness/injustice of it all is time and energy that could be spent getting your life back on track."

Right, looks like you think I'm not sure whether some doctor was a bit rude that day, or something. What I'm talking about is being lied to about housing eligibility, then having the things I was told wouldn't happen about housing eligibility happen after I fought for it, then having it sabotaged by the both the council and NHS anyway.

I also mean that my local CMHT and the clinic wanted me to tell my parents that they had to take me in after treatment in order to be admitted (as they did not want to become legally liable for my housing), but my parents refused to consider this.

I also further mean about a breach of the Equalities Act 2010 by direct discrimination, or even victimisation. The second last letter I ever got from the CMHT was from a new team leader that I had never heard of. In it, she wrote that she wanted me to attend a new assessment for referral to a residential clinic, stressing that this would be conditional on my parents agreeing to take me in upon discharge from it, as the clinic did not want legal responsibility for housing me. She got my name utterly wrong, showing me that she hadn't read my medical records that explain the matter with my name and how to deal with it. It took me two months to do it, but I wrote a letter to the CMHT telling them that:
* it was puting me in an impossible situation to ask my parents to take me in after discharge, as they were adamant that I should be housed elsewhere;
* I could not reconcile the residential clinic's position with the Localism Act 2011;
* I had been discharged by the hospitals of the CMHT onto the street twice, so that I could not believe the clinic's position anyway;
* I could no longer visit the place the new CMHT team leader wanted me to attend due to my OCD, and that I used either Mind or my GP's surgery as a venue;
* I found it very difficult to write letters in a timely fashion, as I was at the mercy of my parents being out of the house for long enough to write one (usually one hour per A4 side) without them interfering or obstructing me.
I soon received my last ever letter from the new CMHT team leader. She summarily discharged me in writing, with "I fail to see how we can help you." She used my OCD and consequent difficult relationship with my parents against me. If she had instead agreed that I use a Mind advocate to host us at Mind as before, we could have done something.

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "I suggest you begin by sitting down and having a long hard think about what you want your life to look like. Make a list of the things you want to change most urgently and then devise a plan to make each one happen. You may need help with the practicalities of the plan and we'll do our best to guide you in the right direction. However, the bottom line here is you have to want to recover (at least in part or make a start on recovery) from OCD. If that motivation is absent then nothing significant is going to change and the road ahead for you will be more of the same you have now."

Look (and I'm sorry I say this in a sighy way again, but really!), the plan is obvious:

1. Homelessness ended permanently and in line with my current OCD first;
2. Treatment second;
3. Employment third.

It has to be in that order. I had the housing division telling me that they wouldn't house me until I had treatment first when I told them that I could not cope with their poorly secured application system, while I had the residential clinic telling me that they would not take in homeless people to treat. The correct housing is mandatory, and there are some additional problems with that which I'll have to skip here for (hah!) brevity.

Objective number 2). [About extrication.]

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "... It's a fact that we live in an age of technology and to access 'normal life' there is no option other that to embrace at least some of that technology and work with it to the best of your ability. ... using the necessary technology to access the services available."

You thought I'm a tin-foil hatter. I've already explained to 'malina' how that's the opposite of the truth. I can tell you that Tor's onion routing is quite advanced, invented by the US Navy, and even used by Facebook and the BBC.

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "You are within your rights to refuse to use phones etc and bypass all the regular technology routes. But with rights comes responsibilities. If you choose to continue to avoid living in the modern world then you must bear the consequences of that choice. You can't always expect other people to play by your rules when you so adamantly won't play by theirs. I'm not being mean here, I'm speaking from experience. Including time spent homeless and unable to access various 'normal' services. Self-pity because your OCD makes life hard isn't going to change your life for the better. Get practical."

I'm sorry 'snowbear' but I really have to protest that your "speaking" is really not seeing the wood for the trees.

First, I have those 'rights' because government guidelines for public services are that people can choose which medium of communication they prefer. I had to insist on letters in writing because:

a) I found that I was so stressed that I couldn't remember what was said or agreed;
b) I could become involuntarily mute if asked for personally identifying information;
c) my parents would intercept calls meant for me;
d) they would use information from intercepted calls to pressure me, but when I asked them who exactly called and what the details were, they would claim they didn't know and I should sort it out myself;
e) my local GP's surgery had a large caveat that e-mail was not private, and I wanted privacy; and
f) most other public services didn't use e-mail reliably anyway then (it was usually private companies).

Second, you talk about living in an age of modern technology (how is that never true?!), but you're just being carried along by the 'everything online' bandwagon that politicians try and push in the mistaken belief that it'll cut public expenditure. These politicians push poorly designed IT systems as they have poor understanding of IT security and how it impacts on privacy and confidentiality. Some don't even believe the latter two should exist, except for themselves. This bandwagon is steamrollering many poor and disabled people. Did you actually sign up for the NHS test and trace app? Most did not.

Third, on expecting "other people to play by your rules when you so adamantly won't play by theirs". I've already explained that actually they don't get to set the rules; there's supposed to be a choice. However, my point has been that they have _not_ been playing by the rules, for example, doctor patient confidentiality breached by backdooring is one I've already mentioned. These are not _my_ rules, they are _the_ rules. In fact, the Law! You don't get it.

I once got a Mind advocate to contact the ICO about the local council failing to secure its housing application bidding website. The council got told off by the ICO, and they jumped! I did that! You're welcome, fellow homeless people!

The ICO's rules. Not mine.

Please don't tell me I'm not practical. Practical does not mean slapdash.

So as for speaking from experience, what experience? I suspect that you mean that you find that the bureaucracies hold all the cards, they have sinecure, we're small, we'll have to do things their way 'cos we're weak. And then you become their ally by telling people to change, to spare the bureaucracies from change.

There has been a story on the BBC news website recently about the disturbing matter of dozens of deaths/suicides of mentally ill and vulnerable people at the hands of the DWP. These people had their benefits stopped for basically spurious reasons, told to submit to reassessment by the DWP's awful subcontractors (Capita, for example), and when they failed to do so for reasons _directly related to their mental illnesses_, were declared 'fit for work'. Coroner's have attributed some deaths directly to the DWP's appalling lack of training for their sub-contracted assessors to account for mental illnesses.

I have always avoided claiming benefits simple because I can have no confidence that these assessors can understand that such an 'invisible' disability as OCD really is a disability. I dread being victim to the kafka-esque kinds of practices and devious tracks that the DWP imposes on claimants. My on/off suicide ideation is something I have to get over by focussing of some future hope (such as finding a new technology), but I'm sure that if I were to claim benefits, the DWP could very well send me the way of others, to death.

Objective number 3). [About co-morbidities.]

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "Share away, but it's all irelevant to sorting out your OCD in the here and now. Don't let yourself get sidetracked. Focus on fixing what's keeping you stuck in the present day instead of naval gazing into the past."

I'm not navel-gazing at the past! It is well likely to be crucial to my housing and therefore recovery! Right here, right now, before the OCD gets "sorted out"! I've had a chronic problem of sleep deprivation due to noise from neighbours in almost all of the many places I lived. It was agonising, no one else seemed to have this sensitivity I had. When I found out about hypersensitivity in ASD, it was a possible explanation. I wanted it investigated. I wanted a diagnosis of ASD, or something else. My second care co-ordinator obstructed this, claiming I couldn't possibly be austitic, as he had an autistic son, so he should know. My twelfth psychiatrist told me that his opinion was that the sleep deprivation through noise was driving my OCD, and if I was exposed to this problem again, my OCD would worsen. Looking back, I now realise that two major phases of depression just after the worst bouts of noise disturbances preceded two escalations of OCD.

When I gave a copy of that psychiatrist's letter to that care co-ordinator to forward to the housing division to support why I couldn't be housed in a flat or other noisy place, he told me that he didn't want to do it as it "offended his politics". I insisted, but a month later, he claimed the housing division were saying they knew nothing about such a letter. I think he didn't send it. (He also told me that if I committed suicide, it would be to spite him. He also once asked me if I wanted a house at the end of a country lane, to which I replied "well, yes", and then taunted me that what I was really trying to do was make the council give me a nice house at the end of a country lane.)

In this stable, I have no noise from neighbours. It is at the end of a little country lane in a small field. The nearest neighbour (the landlord and landlady) is 20 metres away. I have slept better for some years now. My OCD is very bad, but it's decline is arrested.

I want to know why the faintest noise of the wrong type can stop me falling asleep, for hours.

Objective number 4). [About joining in.]

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: There's a world of difference in 'getting around OCD' (finding ways to make doing the compulsions easier so you can continue unchanged) and 'getting better from OCD (stopping the compulsions and moving forward to a better place). We don't condone the former."

Sure, but again I have to assert that I don't have the luxury of most of your advisees. They have homes, jobs, family, parents, friends, doctors, lives, etc. I have almost none of those. I do not have the luxury of getting into more difficult trouble by pushing through my OCD. I have no medication, no therapy, and can't access primary healthcare.

Look, let me explain something (again, I'm forced to digress ...). My first admission to psychiatric hospital was a fluke. I had an appointment to see a psychiatrist (another of the 'one shotters', psychiatrist number seven I think), and had to drive 100 miles to make it. As I expected, there was a new man I had never seen before. He explained he had come all the way from London to see me. I was stunned, I thought "finally, I'm being taken seriously." He knew that I always stood, but asked me to sit down. I refused, of course, but as he pressed on, the total contrast of his opinion to others made me want to stay. I sat down (on the edge as a compromise). He asked me why I chose to sit down. I explained that I felt what he was going to say was worth the fallout; it was like a gesture. As we talked, he told me that he noted I was arranging my own style of CBT. But he asked me whether I had been hearing voices. I had been having a terrible few months of stress with my parents badgering me to leave again, to the point that I had started burning myself with an iron for grounding. I also started hearing my mother calling my name, even though she was out shopping, so convincingly that I would turn around to face where the sound came from. I told him about the voices, but not the burning.

This psychiatrist told me that he thought I was becoming psychotic, so wanted to admit me to the psychiatric hospital. He asked me if I would agree, and I told him that I did (I had wanted this for some time, but was always being dismissed). He told me that he was glad I agreed to voluntary admission as he would have sectioned me right there if I hadn't. In fact, we had such trust that I was allowed to drive 100 miles back to the friends I was staying with (my parents had pestered me to leave again) and return the next week for admission.

He told me that he would come and visit me in the hospital and arrange a brainscan. This was going to be great!

He never came. Also, my (first) care co-ordinator never came to find out why I was now in hospital. (And that's how I got my second care co-ordinator, a new man who just turned up as her replacement saying "under the circumstances, we thought it wouldn't be appropriate to ask you to carry on with your former care co-ordinator.") Some staff were hostile to me being there. I found privacy and security holes and annoyed them liberally for it. Some patients loved my escapades. One charge nurse was brilliant and took action over my security concerns. But the management had me discharged after twelve weeks onto the streets. I got no therapy, but I did get to have two oral anti-psychotic medications (for which hospital regulations were waived so that I could swallow them).

Spoiler: I later found out that the referring psychiatrist didn't turn up because his father had died, and he had to leave the country. I never saw him again. Also, he was a locum doctor, so almost nobody took his opinion seriously.

Why is this important? Well, my conclusion was that the psychotic episode was borne out of the pressure and challenging that my parents had been doing to me, always obstructing my compulsions at home, nagging me to make telephone calls, rent a flat, stop cleaning, invade my bedroom, touch my bedclothes mockingly. And this is what I'm afraid of, that when I'm pushed too fast and too hard to violate my OCD, I get depressed and go psychotic. So, if I am to recover, I need this challenging to happen in a safe place, while I'm on euphoria-inducing medication. And for that, I first need to be properly housed. So proposals to "just get on with it" are putting the cart before the horse, and could be dangerous for me.

Another danger is that at the moment, my OCD stops me from being able to commit suicide. For example, as I can't swallow medication (it's the close, fiddly packaging, and that I can't wash it), I can't swallow any pills. Relieve that OCD constraint, and the next time I have a really bad crisis, I might just do that. So, I have to be careful.

Objective number 5). [About privacy and security.]

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "Quite apart from being off topic for the forum, this is also indulging your OCD. So a definite 'no' to that."

Right, but I've already noted how you like to remove personally identifying information from the forum. I've parodied above how this could be misconstrued as OCD. I've then asserted it's the right thing to do anyway. Yet, can I ask, is there a policy at OCD UK that people here are supposed to be anonymous? Do you oppose real names, or are you indifferent to them? Do you defend anonymity, or are you not bothered by third parties deanonymising people here? What's the policy, please?

And finally ...

'snowbear' wrote on 10 Apr 2021: "However, if you'll let us, we'd be happy to help you understand how this OCD thinking is making your life so miserable and that you don't need to continue with things as they are. When you're ready, we can talk about accessing healthcare for your OCD. :)"

Okay, I hope I've illustrated at least in part how I'm actually very familiar with how OCD is working and making my life miserable. I've already written that I have insight. I _knooOOOoowww_ 'snowbear'. I'm not trapped by not knowing about it, I'm trapped by how powerful the feelings are. I'm seeing a lot that suggests this is forgotten in the advice give on this forum.

Again, the hospital staff were amazed at the level of insight I had. Also, I met a woman with borderline personality disorder, who had her entire forearms wrapped in polyurethane casts; she had set them on fire. I asked her why, and she told me, quiveringly, that the voices had told her to do it. I asked her how she failed to resist, and she replied: "the v-oi-c-es are ver-y pow-er-ful." And I knew what she meant, because my OCD is like that, though not in voices, but feelings.

So, to finish off, my immediate problem is that is I'm pushed too hard and fast on overcoming these feelings, the feelings themselves have already started overwhelming my mind and shutting it down. Then I can no longer think. Later and after several rounds of that, I'm utterly exhausted, physically and mentally. If this keeps going on for days, weeks, months, I become depressed. Then I might start becoming psychotic. When I recover from the depression, I find my OCD has escalated to new levels and themes.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iHUEARYKAB0WIQRccIQXi2jN8TepJAtca12sSb8X4wUCYJxJqwAKCRBca12sSb8X
48DeAP99kN7UKljsnDHv7709iNQkBGMU8xjtLOPrrr3DWiPfbQEAlIs2GcT5aOHW
5J9EPW03DpmGQBrg96QzGmTzOdfa9g4=
=Etqu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Link to comment

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Greetings again 'snowbear'!

I wrote another superposting, this one is in response to your response to 'malina's response. (I'm thinking of Terry Gilliam's film "Brazil" right now. I wonder why?)

I regret to disappoint you that your posting above does not move me. I hope you have managed to read my previous posting where I show that a) you misunderstand badly the technical issues (and this has shown up even more sharply in your posting that I now address, but please don't feel singled out, as I find it a common problem, which always places me at the disadvantage of having to, er..., mansplain the technical issues first, before I can get onto their interaction with my OCD); and b) my handling by the authorities directly regarding my illness and homelessness was far more than a grump (and that was a skeleton outline; there are more incidents and details to come).

Generally, your subsuming the privacy and security issues into a strawman for the 'OCD bad!' hammer shows that you are happily ignorant of how problematic these issues are, and that ignorance allows me to decline your arguments. 'Cameroole' asked how I expect the forum to help me. Well, I figured that having a very fixed and brazen idea that you should become my champions would very likely lead to disappointment, so I've come here with the idea of just looking and seeing what comes up. However, one thing I'd hoped for is some very good arguments that either fill an ignorance I didn't know I had, or change my mind about something. I can't see that happening if the arguments put to me are based on false premises wrapped in vague generalities and overly simplistic analogies and models of OCD.

See, you remind me of an unfortunate story almost two decades ago when an American schoolgirl took some CDs of Free and Open Source Software (FOSS) she had burnt to give to her schoolfriends. A teacher saw her doing this and asked her what the CDs were for. The girl explained that it was "free software" and she was distributing it. The teacher asked whether she paid for it, and the girl replied "of course not, it's free!" So the teacher confiscated that CDs and sent the girl home for engaging in software piracy. This story went viral. The teacher had no idea (like most) that FOSS is typically licenced to encourage sharing. The most common licence is the GNU Public Licence, designed to use copyright law to ensure the software can never become proprietary. As a result, copying fees are as small as material costs, or even non-existent if you supply your own blank CDs, which is why the girl didn't pay. Here, the teacher was well-meaning but clearly ignorant of something. The schoolgirl was ahead of the teacher on this.

I often said to my psychiatrists that on this facet of my OCD, I seem to be about a decade ahead of what the general population know and do about computer and internet privacy and security. As sheeple, they of course shrug, and I expect that. But I have to tell you that as I actually saw all the operational security ("OpSec" for short) boobs allowing me to see other patient data while in CMHT buildings and hospitals, I did become afraid for the protection of my own data.

Now, you will revert to your touchstone "OCD bad!" hammer, and claim it's my reactive thinking that causes my problems. Maybe. Does that make those OpSec boobs okay though? Does that make invasive, even if legal (and that's debatable), tracking by the advertising industry okay though?

Look, here's the development of this with my OCD. As I wrote, I became concerned about all this security, privacy and confidentiality years before I was diagnosed with OCD. After the diagnosis though, I questioned myself whether all this was just because of my OCD. What did the medical professionals say? Well, very silly things, sadly, as they too were tremendously ignorant. For example, my first psychiatrist challenged my fear of identity theft by telling me that this was less likely that being involved in an aeroplane crash. Some sessions later, I pointed out that the UK's count for identity theft had surpassed two million victims. He denied he ever made that comparison.

So, clearly, I knew more about the technical aspects of computers and the internet than medical professionals, so what to do? Well, I decided I needed to find the real security experts and find out what they thought. So, do you see that I avoided rumination (that "maybe it is all true!", and I avoided reassurance (that "maybe it isn't all true!"), and actually Went And Found Out! My sources became Philip Zimmerman (inventor of PGP), Bruce Schneier (one of the security industry's 'cowboys' who defeated President Clinton's 'clipper chip' plan to backdoor encrypted communication), and Steve Gibson (who website tests one's computer for firewall security with his "Shields Up!" penetration tester). I also found some work colleagues who were Linux enthusiatists, because they knew that Microsoft and Windows were jokes for privacy and security. And then there was my pub chat with a network engineer at my workplace, it went something like this:

Me: "So, what do you see on the networks? Can you read all our e-mails?"
Him: "Sure, e-mails, credit card numbers, the porn you're surfing, it's all there ... "
Me: "So how much is saved?"
Him: "If there's a dispute between the agency and a contractor, the staff member can put in a request to see the e-mail correspondence, and it goes to every detail all the way to the year dot! We have to archive the whole lot."
Me: "What about private matters using the agency's e-mail?"
Him: "You boss's boss can ask to look at it as he sees fit."
Me: "Is that legal?"
Him: "We're an IGO, there's no legal jurisdiction over anything here, they can do what they want!"

Well, I decided that e-mail was a liability, but as the years went by I came to realise that I was trapped into an awful choice as no one was securing their e-mail, so I couldn't secure mine. Should I continue to use unencrypted e-mail and hope that nothing bad would ever happen? Or should I refrain from using an insecure form of communication, and tell people that I was refraining because it was insecure? Okay, tell them maybe try securing their e-mail, but then I got the "so what?" response. And here I am seeing it again from you.

I cannot have any confidence in an argument from someone who is _not_ of understanding. Only after you argue your argument from a place of understand can I take your argument seriously. Until then, it just doesn't work for me. There's no cognitive model that can be attached to it. Let me pick through this, because the way you write, mashing different issues together and making false dichotomies yourself, needs to be pulled apart.

'Precontemplative' wrote on 30 Apr 2021: "Did you expect rambling incoherence that just seemed psychotically paranoid, or do I actually have valid points? Or am I truly lost? Please tell!"

'snowbear' wrote on 30 Apr 2021: "Do you have valid points or are you paranoid? You present it as an either or question! ... as the two options aren't opposing outcomes."

Okay, look. First, the default position of most people about their computers and the internet is that there are no outstanding security issues. So long as they have a virus checker, software is updated, and no one knows their pet names are their passwords, all is well. This is largely due to their ignorance of security issues, not absence of security issues. I therefore had to cite some outstanding security issues, best as closely relevant to say someone on this forum. Example: the BBC news story on the spat between Apple and Facebook illustrating how the advertising ecosystem is undermining privacy and confidentiality, a kind of security issue not addressed by virus checkers, software updates, or password guessability.

Second, after focussing on a security issue that was relatable, targeted advertising. I was offering to 'malina' that arguments about security fall into one of two camps, one highlighting a security issue, and the other advocating the status quo, usually follow an anti-pattern where the latter accuses the former of incoherent rambling, paranoia and psychosis. If the former camp has valid points, it follows that the latter camp argues from ignorance. If the latter camp has valid points, it follows that the former camp is paranoid ... or psychotic, as you want to say. I wanted to know which camp 'malina' would sit in after reading my posting. Unfortunately, 'malina' didn't give a clear response. Like you, she wanted to assert both camps can be right by pretending that the former camp's concerns do not and can never apply to her, or me. And that's what you do, you evade needing to understand the validity of the points by conceding them, but only because of this following trick of claiming they aren't applicable anyway.

In your case, you talk of targeted advertising being a minor irritation. It is way more than that, but what is telling is that you don't yourself question that the targeting is done by spying (your word: "I think you're right about the potential for this modern technological world to spy on any individual."). You show no pique about this whatsoever. As it happens, the datagraphic on the front page of the Financial Times for Tue, 11 May 2021, showed how many Apple customers opted in to be tracked by advertisers on their apps. (This was the issue in the BBC news story that I posted in response to 'malina'.) Worldwide: 13%, USA: 5%. Oh look! Turns out that you're in the minority after all! (I was truly stunned to read these figures this morning. See, sheeple are becoming people again!) So, whe you argue that the valid points aren't applicable, it turns out that 87% of Apple's customers thought it did, and Apple itself thought it did. Now what is the applicability?

'Precontemplative' wrote on 30 Apr 2021: "Did you expect rambling incoherence that just seemed psychotically paranoid, or do I actually have valid points? Or am I truly lost? Please tell!"

'snowbear' wrote on 30 Apr 2021: "You believe sincerely that the perceived risks mentioned above are a genuine threat to you in one way or another. Is that to a psychotic degree or not? Depends if you can allow that you have a mental health issue and may not be interpreting the world correctly as a result, or whether you're 100% convinced everything you perceive as risk is a danger to the degree you state."

You see, what you did was avoid actually addressing whether my valid points are truly applicable, by shifting the matter to your made up idea that I'm asserting the points are "100%" irrefutable, that is, confecting absolutism on my part, and contrasting that with your made up idea that as only an ill person would think like that, it must be due to my illness, and _solely_ to my illness. You then use your confected absolutism to justify that I should disregard these valid points as not applicable, even though they are valid, and to think otherwise is psychosis. And yet it is the case that my points are valid, not because _I'm_ asserting them, but because the experts are (and Apple). Anyway, the experts also argue that the targeted advertising risks _do apply to everyone_ who is targetable. That's you, 'malina', and would have been me except I dodged it already.

The flaw in your argument is that it can be used to also show that someone who asserts the opposite is also psychotic, by the same standard of absolutism. See, it is easy to push someone's argument that "there is a threat" as paranoid by asserting there isn't a threat. But what's the word for when someone argues that there isn't a threat when there is? Apathy? Or better, denial? Paranoia is popularly so much more associated with psychosis than denial, but tell me: are you 100% convinced everything I perceive as risk is _not_ a danger to the degree I state? Because you wrote that psychosis depends on "... if you can allow that you have a mental health issue and may not be interpreting the world correctly as a result, or whether you're 100% convinced everything you perceive as risk is a danger to the degree you state." You're claiming that "100% convinced" is the tell of psychosis by contrasting it with the first clause, aren't you? Is it psychosis at 99% convinced? Well, can't be, as you're pushing the absolutism argument, aren't you? What about 0% convinced? But that's also absolutist as well, right? Isn't that your position though? So, 0% convinced is denial is psychosis too as much as 100%.

There's a saying: "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!" It is of course a joke, (Groucho Marx, or W C Fields, I can't remember). Yet, it is a very telling joke: claims of paranoia cannot be used to prove incorrectness of argument or even psychosis.

As for "interpreting the world correctly", how do you show me you are an authority on interpreting the world correctly? You can't. Impasse? What to do? How about we go through the evidence instead. But I already told you that that's what I did.

Anyway, I don't think you are psychotic, and neither am I. Psychosis here is a red herring.

Incidently, 'snowbear' wrote on 30 Apr 2021: "As a scientist you should recognise when facts have been misleadingly presented, ..." Can you pinpoint any 'fact' I misleadingly presented? I think you can't, as it all hinges on your argument of psychosis, which I defeated.

Now, the rest of your comments:

'snowbear' wrote on 30 Apr 2021: "The problem many OCD sufferers have is the things they fear are based upon genuine concerns. However, they then interpret this 'grain of truth' as evidence their concerns are completely valid and their compulsions are therefore necessary, justified behaviour."

Yes, I know, agree, concur. However, for this OCD facet, I Went And Found Out. Please don't confuse this with reassurance seeking, as what I found is obviously the opposite of what I would have preferred. The problematic words here are 'OCD sufferers' and 'interpreted'. I deferred to experts.

'snowbear' wrote on 30 Apr 2021: "It's the perceived outcome which differs and allows me to interact with the world without resorting to the coding and avoidance compulsions you perform."

Dahlink! No codes! I said there's no coding by me, yet I can show you people and organisations that display their PGP public keys on their websites, even employers for job applications!

'snowbear' wrote on 30 Apr 2021: "I think you have concerns about being identified as an OCD sufferer which, even if they were once relevant to your working life, have no further bearing on your life as it is now."

You can't say that! First, the matter of keeping my OCD status confidential is the same for past employers and future employers alike. That is protected by the Equalities Act 2010. Second, this is because if I were to seek employment again, references would need to be sought by a future employer from my past employer, certainly if I were to re-enter the industry for which I am qualified and experienced. Third, there are the issues of a corrupt HR, a machiavellian former colleague who wheedled his way to the top, a paranoid former colleague who thought I was after his girlfriend when she was using me to make him jealous, a mob that both former colleagues had core roles in who gossiped that I was faking an illness to prevent my dismissal, and a court case I brought based on consequences of that illness that resulted in the interpretation of the employment regulations of the European Economic Area being changed to the detriment of them all, expect the one who wheedled his way to immunity. The idea that upon seeing my name again, no one is going to have a field day over abusing my history, OCD status, and OCD itself, for vengeance, sport, and/or profit is absurd! Please, please stop being so presumptive!

'snowbear' wrote on 30 Apr 2021: "You've yet to accept the change in your situation, your 'social position' if you like. Don't get me wrong, ... I'm not in any way saying having a mental health condition is a lower social position."

Ouch! anyway. I think this is a problem you have in mind as a stereotype that you are trying to fit onto me, that I am 'in denial' about my social position. I'm largely happy being out of the rat race, and as I said, I always have felt like a square peg in a round hole. As for clarifying about lower social position, thank you for trying to straighten the matter, but it's not you or me that's of lower worth, it's the authorities, their policies, and their practices.

'snowbear' wrote on 30 Apr 2021: "But your reality is you're jobless, homeless and nobody within 'the establishment' is in the least interested in you any more. ... Even if there was a 'grain to truth' justification for your paranoia back when you were working for that company, those days are long gone. When you accept that, you'll find your anxiety levels drop considerably and your paranoia reduces."

Careful! There are two 'establishments' I'm talking about. The first is the incestuous industry I worked for, and I've just outlined above why their interest can resurrect. The second is the actual (UK) establishment, the "authorities" as I called them; in this case, yes they forget me, they so love forgetting me. The bulk of their efforts is to forget us all. If I look like I am a serious threat to their cosy ways, I'm very sure they will become most interested in me, and pull every dirty trick they can. I remember the Samantha Hancox story. I cannot afford to let them see me coming.

'snowbear' wrote on 30 Apr 2021: "Don't get me wrong, there's no reason an OCD sufferer can't achieve anything they put their mind to."

Again, I know. I remember the Channel 4 documentary a decade ago comparing various people with mental illnesses for employability, and OCD sufferers came out on top, better even than non-ill people, even while they still suffered OCD! (Mildly, though.) The people rating them were very successful business people. Did you see it? That's nice to know aout, isn't it?

And as I alluded to, one thing I would like to put my mind to is to smash the local authorities dirty tricks departments. Not just for myself, not just for all OCD sufferers, but for all mentally ill people.

'snowbear' wrote on 30 Apr 2021: "You can be as mentally screwed up as you like, declare it to all with wild abandon! And the world will simply shrug and carry on as before."

See, 'snowbear', when I first read your reply, I just kept cringing over the cliched application of "you're the one out of line, you have to change, it's you, it's you, it's you" with so many generalities that I have to spend time puncturing. And you use the phrase "the world" as such a generality. First, 'the world' does not act as one. Second, when someone does declare how mentally screwed up they are with all wild abandon, that should be regarded as a cry for help, and yet 'the world' does largely simply shrug and carry on as before. Yet, the next largest set are not helpers either, but detractors, and they don't move on, they hunt and bait and troll. Thirdly, that's not okay at all, and I can't see myself coming out of that doing what you say and feeling any better than I do right now!

Sorry, I can't condone a world where 'wanting to be recovered' means going full non-judgemental and 'letting go' means letting the detractors and the dirty tricks departments off the hook, and (worse) knowing there are new and more people suffering what I did, and are still being failed, and being told that this is all justified because "the world just shrugs anyway". And (worse worse) being told this by someone who just wrote before that "there's no reason an OCD sufferer can't achieve anything they put their mind to."

And so I had written that I have this desire.

'Precontemplative' wrote on 30 April 2021: "Now, I would like to litigate about this, but there's too many OCD problems up front there, primarily that I've found that laywer firms typically use _no_ security on there web pages to contact them about one's case. Even if I got past that problem, the Law would be 'slow' to see my case."

And you, 'snowbear', wrote on 30 April 2021: "A typical example of disordered thinking influencing your interpretation of the why of things. Lawyer firms don't use your coding methods because your coding precautions aren't necessary. They wouldn't be slow to understand your case. They'd see it immediately for what it is - a man with OCD interpreting the world according to his paranoid delusions and suffering unfortunate consequences as a result."

Again, you come to the justification for, and conclusion of, "disordered thinking" based on your own false interpretations, presumptions, and loose language.

First, " ... disordered thinking influencing your interpretation of the why of things." Which is true? " ... disordered thinking influencing your interpretation of the why of things...." or " ... interpretation of the why of things influencing your disordered thinking ..."? I think I've seen both now, the second from Dr David Veale. Anyway, I think both are wrong. I do not have disorder thinking; it is not my thinking that is disorders. Also, there are _two_ disorders I have to battle with:
a) the first disorder is from within: my OCD and my bad _feelings_ that it makes, not my thinking;
b) the second disorder is from without, for example, a law firm's poor security.
Most people are aware of neither disorder, some are aware of one or other disorder, but I'm aware of both disorders. It is the clash between those disorders that causes me problems.

Second, "Lawyer firms don't use your coding methods because your coding precautions aren't necessary." Put the 'coding' word down and step away from it, 'snowbear'! I didn't mention any 'coding'! I meant that laywer firms' websites lacked TLS!

Third, the precautions _are_necessary, and legally required. I cannot have confidence in a law firm handling my case against an authority for failing to secure it's website and communications, if the law form makes the same error!

Forth, "They wouldn't be slow to understand your case." I wrote "the Law", capital 'L'. I was referring to a judgment by a Lord Justice some 20 years ago who wrote that if local authorities were accused of maladministration, the Law should be slow to accept that. Since then, the local authorities have a had a field day maladministrating. The crazy thing was that in 2014, Lord Neuberger made a judgment that local authorities had been maladministrating by refusing homeless mentally ill people prioritisation for housing by claiming they were no more vulnerable than other "street homeless" people, and therefore "able to fend for themselves". Lord Neuberger pointed out that a) the comparison should never have been to other homeless people, but other people if they became homeless; and b) these phrases "street homeless" and "able to fend for themselves" had no legal meaning. So, I was never writing about law firms being slow, I was writing about the courts! Lord Neuberger has partialy corrected that, but not enough for me.

Fifthly, "... his paranoid delusions ..." Your opinion, not Lord Neuberger's as it turns out. And I can say that the three appeals that went before Lord Neuberger at the Supreme Court were each for mentally ill people, with actual psychosis. However, my arguments on security deficiencies are not delusions, and my arguments that the authorities are discriminating against me by refusing to secure themselves therefore cannot be dismissed as delusions.

'snowbear', wrote on 30 April 2021: "Rather than taking on your case for litigation, any lawyer worth his salt would direct you towards mental health services in the hope you would accept the help you need to improve your thinking, and by default improve your situation."

If I am to use a lawyer to litigate that my OCD meant I was unable to engage with a local authority because they had failed to secure their website for privacy and confidentiality as per the GDPR and the ICO's guidelines, and that meant my disability (the OCD) was being discriminated against under the Equalities Act 2010, there is no point in me using a law firm that has the same failing. The only kind of lawyer that would direct me to mental health services for the reason you suggest is either too stupid to understand the case, or is simply dishonest, and also discriminating. To go ahead with using that law firm would be to hand the judgment to the Respondent on a plate, and look super-foolish in the eyes of the judge. That's a 'catch-22'.

'snowbear', wrote on 30 April 2021: "Taking them on in the mental state you're in would only be seen as further evidence that mentally ill people are deluded and can't get their act together."

That is a terrible thing to say! It is just playing into the hands of a local authority that does not want to meet its obligations to security and to disability.

Firstly, your position denies people who are currently mentally ill from justice, yet charities and lawyers take on cases of people who are still mentally ill. You get yourself into this mess by simply copying the old argument of the local authority that I seek treatment before engaging with the local authority, and applying it to engaging in litigation, both of which are wrong arguments, because ...

Secondly, it's another catch-22. If I cannot engage with an unsecured local authority while disabled by my OCD, and if I am to be treated first so as to engage with the local authority without them having changed, then they will argue that if I succeeded in engaging after treatment, there was no problem in the first place. That is a spurious argument, because it precludes that a mentally ill person can ever have a disability that can be impacted by the deficiencies in the provisions of public services by the local authority. Yet that follows from what you recommend: get rid of the illness/disability first, then claim disability discrimination. In my case, there are many, but first there is accessibility, but not just to the council housing service, but also to the mental healthcare service.

'snowbear' wrote on 30 April 2021: "I hope you'll find the courage to accept you are suffering from unjustified paranoia and take the first step towards recovery by getting some CBT."

I. Have. Been. Trying. To. Get. That. For. Over. A. Decade! I couldn't get treatment because I was homeless, I was told. I couldn't get housing because I was too ill, I was told.

Finally, this more funny part.

'Precontemplative' wrote on 30 April 2021: "I sometimes have this vision of me in the future being world-famous as this homeless OCD sufferer who took on the authorities and won, and that afterwards everyone knew what OCD was really all about, and the powers that be were shamed into acting fully on housing and mental illness."

'snowbear' wrote on 30 April 2021: "I imagine a lot of us have entertained such fantasies at one time or another. :laugh: I certainly used to dream of such stuff when I was younger! But at some stage you need to accept the reality that while you are in the throes of OCD this isn't going to happen."

Okay, I didn't write what I meant well. At the moment, I could never join the OCD UK charity, because that would require de-anonymisation. That means I miss out on for example coming to the November conference, and meeting everyone in person. Thinking this over, I realise that in the future, I've either got round the anonymity issue, because my litigations were so successful that OCD is no longer a matter of stigma and ridicule and I don't need to hide my name, face and history from the general public, or I still need to be anonymous. So actually, the vision has two versions: as that 'poster-boy' who's identity is clear because shaming is no longer, or as a mysterious incognito whose identity is masked because the shaming continues and I fight on. Of course, for the second option, the important question here is: do I attend the November conference as Darth Vader or Batman? Difficult ...

'snowbear' wrote on 30 April 2021: "I imagine a lot of us have entertained such fantasies at one time or another. :laugh: I certainly used to dream of such stuff when I was younger! But at some stage you need to accept the reality that while you are in the throes of OCD this isn't going to happen."

I think I see where OCD destroyed you, 'snowbear'! You can't change the world, you can't change people, you can't change the authorities, you must only change yourself.

Changing oneself is fine. Not changing oneself can also be fine. It's your idea that changing others and other things isn't an option that bothers me.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iHUEARYKAB0WIQRccIQXi2jN8TepJAtca12sSb8X4wUCYJxJrAAKCRBca12sSb8X
4+GVAP9UhOoZ0s4lq99lSz+XoC9q/YfDsF9VedmkzsS0cECShgEA70QZRRT4rms/
fspTUqJ6tBjDz4nmivEjKzBBWcS3swg=
=05OQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Link to comment

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

'PolarBear' wrote on 30 Apr 2021: "Absolutely spot on, snowy."

Hmmm ... 22:09 UTC. Six minutes after 'snowbear' posted at 22:03 UTC.

What do you do all day, 'PolarBear'?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iHUEARYKAB0WIQRccIQXi2jN8TepJAtca12sSb8X4wUCYJxJrQAKCRBca12sSb8X
43GZAQDf0T5XC3sW4Xsy2PApIxE9t+MsYDs0hkKEaELv3p0+EgD/YhD9zjAgdAyv
C7S9yiS18h6kslfCg3DVfui+gLpuTA0=
=FFuw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Link to comment

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

'Cameroole' wrote on 24 Apr 2021: "We are also supported by some of the UK's leading experts in OCD."

Who are the leading experts who support you? What are their names?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iHUEARYKAB0WIQRccIQXi2jN8TepJAtca12sSb8X4wUCYJxJrgAKCRBca12sSb8X
49pcAQCvgRE7QC343Vukcz4VOcY+Y3jdV06NO8I2uiDvkO2qHgEA/njNdCqwTUhj
Cxu5iDRt+7Bh92TLBCt7Glmx2sn6GQc=
=mu3v
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Link to comment

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Hi 'Angst'!

'Angst' wrote on 01 May 2021: "Your major problem is being homeless. This creates problems with registering with a GP, claiming social security benefits and keeping body, soul and mind together. I used to volunteer to help the homeless. Perfectly respectable people can become homeless. The top priority is to find a permanent home."

Oh God, why aren't you in charge of this planet! Your posting is solid! You see the problems correctly.

The BBC ran a story about how in Finland, homeless peple are put into housing straight away, because it transpired that the only way to really solve homelessness is to ... give homeless people homes, as everything they would need to do to get out of homelessness needs ... a home!

'Angst' wrote on 01 May 2021: "If supportive housing is offered via the mental health services this could be the stepping stone to improved housing, health services and achieving peace of mind as well as therapy."

Sadly, I was perpetually denied treatment due to lack of housing, and vice versa. My findings tell me that the only workable solution is housing first, then treatment. The housing has to be secure, be compatible with my OCD, and not cause my OCD to deteriorate. Supportive housing must not mean support workers coming into the home, but what I just wrote. It should come straight from the council.

'Angst' wrote on 01 May 2021: "Often the homeless were and are treated unfairly. ... The waiting list for social housing is long and many people face the same stark problems as you have faced."

Yeah, the above and this seem to be outside of 'snowbear's suggestions, so I can't go along with them.

'Angst' wrote on 01 May 2021: "I doubt whether you will get legal aid to correct pass actual or perceived wrongs."

Legal aid is now reserved only for criminal defence, and too sparingly to boot, so yes, I do not count on it. The trick is to find a charity or several whose campaign my problem(s) align with. They will fund their lawyers if they think they can use my case to change law. This was done with three Claimants at the Supreme Court in 2014/2015 to change the way councils assess mentally ill homeless people for prioritisation.

Lord Neuberger's judgment:

http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKSC/2015/30.html (13 May 2015)

and a very detailed and personal blog post on it by a Frances Coppola:

https://www.coppolacomment.com/2018/12/mental-health-and-homelessness.html

'Angst' wrote on 01 May 2021: "Being a lone homeless man it is unlikely that you will become a folk hero. I cannot think of any such cases."

Yeah, I didnl;t eplain myself well. I meant standing up in front of everyone at an OCD UK November conference, and saying "I done this!" or something. It's like a pretend dream I have sometimes. I didn't really mean I'd must be a folk hero as a result, but I might not be alarmed if it happened in the right way.

Folk heroes for mentally ill homeless people though. No such cases? Hmmm, maybe they don't get recognised as such. Wracking my brains now ... Ting!

Believe it or not: Stephen Fry. Bipolar disorder sufferer, convicted thief, drug abuser, stayed in hotels paid for with stolen credit cards. It's in his three autobiographies ("Moab is my Washpot"; "The Fry Chronicles"; and "More Fool Me"). He's a lovely man really though.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iHUEARYKAB0WIQRccIQXi2jN8TepJAtca12sSb8X4wUCYJxJrwAKCRBca12sSb8X
4+kcAQDWQkBGQdQ7hGTFmIq7JIUD1vS3HUSMSTfpmRa0xWiLQAD8Dj8vGXhOiNa4
R7kbUFPX3xhA50SxuTv/y+jNDJ6kAwI=
=vCWu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Link to comment

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Hi 'malina'!

'malina' wrote on 01 May 2021: "first off, I second @snowbear's post!"

Of course, it's my default expectation of most here. I know you say that and think that for the best reasons, but if you (dare to!) read my postings to 'snowbear' above, you'll see that after adding much more info about my history and findings that unfortunately 'snowbear's suggestions don't wash with me. For arguments to have any chance of reprogramming my neurons, they must directly address the technical matters in a knowledgeable way, and people who can do that _and_ understand OCD are probably extremely rare. That means a good cognitive model for CBT is hard to attain.

'malina' wrote on 01 May 2021: "Yet, most people with OCD and other illnesses are still able to live in society, use computers and the internet, register with a doctor, and everything else."

Yes, they do, but by being ignorant, if not apathetic. I'm neither, and I can't just put something that is rational to the side just to be like everyone else. That's just stupid. Anyway, as I wrote to 'snowbear', the BBC News story I told you about developed further. As it happens, the datagraphic on the front page of the Financial Times for Tue, 11 May 2021, showed how many Apple customers opted in to be tracked by advertisers on their apps. Worldwide: 13%, USA: 5%. It turned out that once people found out what I already knew, they started going my way. This is just another in the series...

'malina' wrote on 01 May 2021: "Ultimately, why should we be ashamed of who we are and the problems we live with? Just because we are different and we struggle, does that mean that we should become outcast from society?"

'malina', this! I wish I could state freely to each and all that I have OCD, but even if the person isn't a mocker, they still don't get it. If I say "please don't touch come near me when I'm eating, because I have OCD" they don't know why or what I mean. One

'malina' wrote on 01 May 2021: "I know that there are potential dangers when you use technology, but most people are able to live with that."

Yes, ignorance helps!

Actually, I'm reminded to say when a security vulnerability is disclosed, it is the potential for exploitation that decides it, not whether it is actually being exploited. That's because then engineers have time to write and test a fix to close the vulnerability. If a vulnerability is already being exploited, that's called a "zero day vulnerability" and is a real alarm bell ringer. That is, zero days left to fix the vulnerability, eek!

The word potential then is a bit misleading. Risk is a better word to use, because you assess the risk according the threat model.

'malina' wrote on 01 May 2021: "You mentioned Snowden, but even he has managed to get on with his life and is living with his wife and child! If he is able to do it, surely those of us who haven't leaked government secrets have far less to worry about ?"

Unlike me, Snowden seriously risked his life! Sure I never did anything remotely close. My first problem is that I found my former employer was breaking the law over EEA regulations. My second problem is that I believe the CMHT, clinic and maybe the entire NHS Trust, also the council housing division were corrupt. I wanted to blow that right open, but I depended on them for treatment and housing. That's why I had to be careful. I'm afraid of what new horrors I will discover as I start all over again.

I'm a coward really, especially in the face of the disordered, horrible feelings that my OCD throws at me. But Snowden's a hero to me. Three US presidents call for his execution: Obama, Trump and Biden. Yes, great that Snowden 'got on' with is life, but he's had to take permanent Russian reesidency, and he is taunted by the most egregious fake US patriots for that, and to call out Putin. I'm not sure I cold handle that alone. Snowden isn't actually alone.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iHUEARYKAB0WIQRccIQXi2jN8TepJAtca12sSb8X4wUCYJxJsAAKCRBca12sSb8X
47m2AP9FDXJzeTyNobkW8+HzM5QYVJz7coHZSYyTHSG0agUx/wEA9fYcwNWEXSml
kA3ae7v+VK1Bxdn6itb89ARdB13yWQU=
=wzvu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Link to comment
20 hours ago, Precontemplative said:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

'Cameroole' wrote on 24 Apr 2021: "We are also supported by some of the UK's leading experts in OCD."

Who are the leading experts who support you? What are their names?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iHUEARYKAB0WIQRccIQXi2jN8TepJAtca12sSb8X4wUCYJxJrgAKCRBca12sSb8X
49pcAQCvgRE7QC343Vukcz4VOcY+Y3jdV06NO8I2uiDvkO2qHgEA/njNdCqwTUhj
Cxu5iDRt+7Bh92TLBCt7Glmx2sn6GQc=
=mu3v
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Do you have a genuine interest or reason for asking or are you simply being pedantic for the sake of it?  I only ask because it does seem that you will challenge literally any comment or opinion that's made.  I'm afraid I simply don't have the time or inclination to engage with that.

Our main Patron is Professor Paul Salkovskis although the charity has worked with many others over the last 17 years.  You will probably find reference to several on our main OCD-UK site, Ashley would be the person to answer fully if the information sought was for specific good reason.

Link to comment

What I do all day is none of your business.

What I don't do is read reams of meaningless twaddle by know it alls who clearly are not in a position to accept my help.

Do yourself a favor and cut your posts short by ending your pointless diatribes about the evils of the Internet and the salvation of PGP, TOR and onion routers. No one cares. And even if we became as knowledgeable about such things as you, we still wouldn't care. 

We are not experts in social housing or how to end homelessness. Look elsewhere for assistance with that. We are pretty good with offering advice on how to effectively deal with OCD. If your problem is indeed OCD then you need to come to a place where you are ready to admit that your extreme paranoia about the Internet is a problem and not enlightenment. 

Edited by PolarBear
Link to comment

Hi Precontemplative,

I apologise that my response to your initial posts has got us off on the wrong foot. How about we start again? I won't make any assumptions about your life or experiences, as long as you don't make any about mine (or the lack of them, or incomparability of them - as I said, you know nothing of my past.)

It's clear you're suffering. Both from the mental distress OCD creates and from the physical and social problems which can result from the mental ones.

My only agenda is to find a way to help you to improve your life. The advice I offer is given in the hope that my 50+ years experience of living with OCD/ coping with OCD/ not coping / destroying my life in order to accomodate the demands of OCD/ and finally accepting that the quality of the rest of my life IS a choice will benefit you without having to go through the hell I experienced or make the mistakes I've made.

When I talk of choice I include in that the choice to NOT change; to stay as you are and to indulge OCD in its demands no matter what the personal cost. I don't in any way imply that a choice to not change is weak - far from it. From my own experience I know that choosing to keep believing the OCD rather than overthrow your thinking and reclaim a better life is by far the tougher route to take. However, I'm assuming from the fact you're here that you want your life to change and that you're ready to make some changes. Or at the very least ready to learn about what would need to change for you to achieve a better life.

So let's start there.

On 13/05/2021 at 16:13, Precontemplative said:

So, to finish off, my immediate problem is that is I'm pushed too hard and fast on overcoming these feelings, the feelings themselves have already started overwhelming my mind and shutting it down. Then I can no longer think. Later and after several rounds of that, I'm utterly exhausted, physically and mentally. If this keeps going on for days, weeks, months, I become depressed. Then I might start becoming psychotic. When I recover from the depression, I find my OCD has escalated to new levels and themes.

Been there, done that and got the T-shirt, as they say. :(  Not just months of it, but decades of it. With no break or letup in between. It's soul destroying. So the fact you're sticking it out and still fighting back shows how strong you are.

Here's the thing that took me decades to learn though - You don't have to break down the wall by bashing your head against it. :wallbash:  There's a door in the wall you can simply open and walk through. I say 'simply' because it's a very straightforward process,  though there's nothing easy about making the choice to finally go for it.

I'm not suggesting you change your thinking overnight. Apart from a few rare people who have some kind of epiphany I don't believe it's even possible to change something as complex as the way with think in any great haste. It takes time.

First we must understand how the thinking we currently use to make sense of the world is creating the suffering we're experiencing.

Next we must learn about some of the alternative ways of thinking available.

Then we must make a choice between continuing to apply our current thinking (with all the consequences and suffering that result) or try out a different approach with its alternative outcome, resulting in a different life experience.

The time scale for these 3 stages is enitely up to the individual. No rush and no pressure (at least not from me, though the 'outside world' often shows less patience. :dry: ) After learning about the options open to you, if you decide to stick with your current thinking and endure the results that's your decision and I totally respect your right to make that choice.

Let's start by finding out how much you understand of the phrase I used above.

The thinking we use to make sense of the world defines how we experience the world.

 

Let's take an example.

Am I aware of the security risks on the internet? Yup. Scary as heck. Am I aware that every word I'ver ever typed is available for the perusal of anyone with the know-how who wants to spy on me? Yes, and I've blown a fuse in anger at how unwilling the world's governments are to tackle the privacy issue in any meaningful way. Do I think what you're saying about internet security is wrong? Not in principle. But...and here's where we differ... unlike you I don't believe anybody will want to trawl through the records to spy on me. I don't fear the outcome or believe the consequences would impact my life significantly. And I say that as one who has a very great deal to hide that could be considered shameful, damaging or even illegal.

So why do I not lose sleep over it any more, or feel the need to use special keys to disguide my online presence?

Because I apply a different kind of thinking now.

You're using catastophic thinking which automatically concludes all the likely possible outcomes are bad. Such thinking ignores the possible good outcomes (often completely) and even where these are considered it biases you towards believing the bad outcomes are more likely.

I'm capable of seeing the possible bad outcomes, but then step back, remove my 'OMG what if...' :omg_smilie:  filter and accept that even if it happened I'd handle it

I can overcome the fear and suspicion and the compulsion to hide things because the type of thinking I apply to the world enables me to shrug and say 'So what?' I don't need to fear the consequences because I trust myself to deal with whatever outcome the world throws at me.

It's not about the likelihood of whether something bad will happen. I don't need to bother with statistics and whether I'm more likely to get killed by debris falling from an exploding plane or a lightning bolt hitting me... my approach to the world (my thinking) is that whatever the outcome, I will deal with it.

This is liberating!  :)  Instead of avoiding all those possible bad outcomes, you can get on with life and not worry about what might (or might not) happen.

Imagine for a moment you applied this kind of unbiased thinking to your life. Think of the knock on effect on every aspect of your OCD. In short, everything becomes possible.

I understand you've had a difficult time ( AND that you're reading that, rolling your eyers and thinking 'understatment of the millenium'. :rolleyes:)   I also see your posts and replies following the typical pattern of those who are still resisting change. Every time somebody suggests something you come back with a 'But...' and go on (often in intricate detail) to explain why this isn't possible or why it doesn't apply to you.

Again, I'm not insisting you change if you don't want to or aren't ready to. You can't be expected to change if nobody has explained how to make change happen. Our aim on the forums is to show you that

1. change is possible (help you get to a place where you believe that to be true instead of denying it or replying with a 'But...')

2. how to make it happen (show you how your current thinking creates the ever-circling problems you say are inescapable, and that changing your thinking will lead to different thoughts, feelings, and outcomes /a better quality of life )

3. to support you until you're ready to make that choice, and through the process of achieving your goals.

 

 We'll have achieved stage 1 when you accept you don't need to do PGP signature keys to protect or verify the content of your posts. (You might still carry out the compulsion and use the keys, but in your heart you'll know it's overkill and unnecessary, and when you're ready you'll be willing to let it go without any pressure from us. :) )

Link to comment

.....and if there was one area of change I would suggest it would be the length of the posts and trying to make them a little bit more succinct.  At the moment they are very challenging, with every individual comment singled out and addressed, often combatively and negatively.  You have taken great lengths to access the forum, I presume for help, suggestions, support or some other positive outcome.  The members here (I know from long experience) are here to offer just that, no hidden agendas and they do so at whatever level they are capable of.  There is no enemy here.

The other problem being that I suspect many/most people just will not read them in their entirety or offer any feedback because of their length.......and the resistance/antagonism within them.  On Friday evening I was passenger on a car journey so I had time doing nothing.  I read your two posts of Thursday, 16.13 & 16.15........it took me two hours and 10 minutes to properly read them.   Under normal circumstances I simply don't have the time to do that, particularly when I suspect that any feedback will simply meet resistance and/or dissection and rebuttal.  As Snowbear suggests, perhaps it's time to start again and build a new platform of discussion that is to your benefit and one where people can offer some sort of feedback without the fear of being jumped on or rejected :)

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...