My intrusive thoughts still remain despite therapy

[Dantheman37]

I have been through 2 periods of CBT for my rumination OCD symptoms. 
 

My problem is to do with certain obsessive thoughts surrounding the football team I support, Chelsea FC. 
 

The first therapy period I went though was very successful, and I was able to control and pretty much end a large number of horrible worrying thoughts that I had. 
 

However, there were a couple of specific thoughts that were able to survive this first period of treatment, so at the start of this year I signed myself up to the therapy service again, hoping to find out if there were different techniques I could use. 
 

I was shown some new techniques and I started to use them, however the best I have so far managed to get from them is for my comfort regarding the surviving thoughts to slightly improve, that’s it. 
 

I have not been able to almost completely eliminate them like I did with all the thoughts I had during my first therapy phase. 
 

So let me describe what the surviving thoughts are. 

1. Chelsea needing to increase the size of their trophy cabinet when they win trophies means that they will have to spend more money, and therefore winning is bad. 
 

2. Chelsea fans from the north of England or mainly just outside London are bad and I can’t befriend them. 
 

3. The number 1 is bad and therefore I shouldn’t want Chelsea to finish first in anything. 
 

Now I am completely aware that these thoughts are irrational and when I watch games they do tend to be less prevalent, however I have noticed that even though I know the thoughts mean absolutely nothing and aren’t true, they still remain there and bother me, just more like an annoyance than a fear. 
 

This was made even more clear when I had the first thought  bothering me even when I was at the champions league final in Porto this year. I still consider that the best day of my life, but the thought bothers me and has meant I am unable to enjoy the win as much as would have otherwise. 

so my question is this- has anyone else ever had thoughts like these that have survived CBT- and should I keep using the “mindfulness and staying in the present moment” technique, as well as the “behavioural experiment” technique, until they eventually work, or are there other techniques that I can use to finally stop these thoughts bothering me? 
 

If you have successfully managed to use other techniques to end thoughts that survived initial CBT, then I’d love to hear from you. 

Thanks. 

 

 

 

[PolarBear]

One thing that seems to be missing from the above is stopping compulsions. Are you aware of what compulsions you do? Are you working hard to stop those compulsions?

[snowbear]

5 hours ago, Dantheman37 said:

are there other techniques that I can use to finally stop these thoughts bothering me? 

The main technique ( if you want to call it that) is to reassess the meaning you put on the thoughts so that they don't bother you. This is the cognitive part of CBT.

 

5 hours ago, Dantheman37 said:

the best I have so far managed to get from them is for my comfort regarding the surviving thoughts to slightly improve, that’s it. 
 

I have not been able to almost completely eliminate them like I did with all the thoughts I had during my first therapy phase. 

It's good that you've got more comfortable with the thoughts, but it's likely you still haven't gone far enough with the cognitive process of changing the way you look at them.

You may still be attaching meaning/significance to the thoughts. They won't go away until you accept they have no meaning, no importance; they're just thoughts.

5 hours ago, Dantheman37 said:

I have noticed that even though I know the thoughts mean absolutely nothing and aren’t true, they still remain there and bother me, just more like an annoyance than a fear. 

Sounds like you're paying lip service to the idea the mean nothing while holding onto the belief they still have some value or validity.

If you want them to go completely you need to completely accept they are nonsense. Simple as that.

[Dantheman37]

4 hours ago, snowbear said:

The main technique ( if you want to call it that) is to reassess the meaning you put on the thoughts so that they don't bother you. This is the cognitive part of CBT.

 

It's good that you've got more comfortable with the thoughts, but it's likely you still haven't gone far enough with the cognitive process of changing the way you look at them.

You may still be attaching meaning/significance to the thoughts. They won't go away until you accept they have no meaning, no importance; they're just thoughts.

Sounds like you're paying lip service to the idea the mean nothing while holding onto the belief they still have some value or validity.

If you want them to go completely you need to completely accept they are nonsense. Simple as that.

To be honest, I think another major part of why this is still a problem is that these thoughts cause me head pain while they are there, and perhaps that is what keeps them prevalent, not me being bothered by if they mean anything or not. 
 

with my previous therapy though, that was able to eliminate the head pain that came with the other thoughts aswell, yet this hasn’t. 
 

It’s a very difficult situation, but to be honest I am going to face both of them head on in the next 2 weeks. On Saturday I am going to visit the Chelsea museum and do a stadium tour, and there I will see the full trophy room. 
 

next weekend I will visit a Chelsea fan from Manchester. 
 

perhaps these 2 days will help me. 

 

 

[Dantheman37]

5 hours ago, snowbear said:

The main technique ( if you want to call it that) is to reassess the meaning you put on the thoughts so that they don't bother you. This is the cognitive part of CBT.

 

It's good that you've got more comfortable with the thoughts, but it's likely you still haven't gone far enough with the cognitive process of changing the way you look at them.

You may still be attaching meaning/significance to the thoughts. They won't go away until you accept they have no meaning, no importance; they're just thoughts.

Sounds like you're paying lip service to the idea the mean nothing while holding onto the belief they still have some value or validity.

If you want them to go completely you need to completely accept they are nonsense. Simple as that.

I am also attempting to arrange a meeting with a Chelsea fan from Nottingham. I’m just going to believe that facing it all head on in this way is how I need to approach this, actually do what the thoughts say are wrong and challenge them. I think you’re right, actually doing them will be the only way to fully drill home that these thoughts are meaningless ********. 

[Dantheman37]

6 hours ago, PolarBear said:

One thing that seems to be missing from the above is stopping compulsions. Are you aware of what compulsions you do? Are you working hard to stop those compulsions?

I don’t actually do any compulsions. I used to have a thing where I would have to share on social media absolutely ever promotional thing about every game that Chelsea would play. I also used to smack myself and say “CAA (Chelsea above all) Danny”.

However, my first therapy period was successful in ending these compulsions. 

 

 

 

[PolarBear]

Well, there is no such thing as OCD without compulsions. You can have covert compulsions, though.

A careful review of your situation will reveal compulsions you do. I suggest ruminating is suspect.

[Dantheman37]

8 hours ago, PolarBear said:

Well, there is no such thing as OCD without compulsions. You can have covert compulsions, though.

A careful review of your situation will reveal compulsions you do. I suggest ruminating is suspect.

Probably. What’s the best way to deal with that then? 
 

I’m trying to look at how I think in a different manner and just assert that the way I’m thinking is meaningless, also using the techniques I learned from therapy, but so far I’ve not had a lot of success, especially at work, work is where it’s most prevalent as the job I have to do is very boring and repetitive. 
 

Something I was told to do is spend periods of time focusing on nothing but the task at hand and bringing my focus back whenever it would wander, but I’m finding even that very difficult. Hopefully it just improves over time and those things I mentioned above have an effect too. 

[TJS]

I have really struggled with football related obsessions over the years (Ipswich Town and England).

The list of things I have worried about is endless from the 'right type' of players who should be playing through to other teams winning competitions and never being able to get over it.

The fact that Ipswich have been rubbish for the last 20 years has probably not helped. 

I think some it is down to supporting a certain team being such a big part of your identity that anything that gets in the way of your 'perfect'  image of it can be very distressing. It's probably not helped by the fact that most people would just dismiss you as a 'stupid football fan'.

 

[Dantheman37]

9 hours ago, TJS said:

I have really struggled with football related obsessions over the years (Ipswich Town and England).

The list of things I have worried about is endless from the 'right type' of players who should be playing through to other teams winning competitions and never being able to get over it.

The fact that Ipswich have been rubbish for the last 20 years has probably not helped. 

I think some it is down to supporting a certain team being such a big part of your identity that anything that gets in the way of your 'perfect'  image of it can be very distressing. It's probably not helped by the fact that most people would just dismiss you as a 'stupid football fan'.

 

Well I’m glad to hear that someone else has had an almost identical problem at least.

[Handy]

You ruminate because you can. 
 

Playing a reactive sport like tennis, you won’t have time to ruminate.

[PolarBear]

Geez. You can't play tennis 24 hours a day.

[Caramoole]

3 hours ago, PolarBear said:

Geez. You can't play tennis 24 hours a day.

You can't but it does burn off adrenaline, stress hormones and diverts attention....so not a bad thing as a hobby....or other physical exercise

[AmandaG]

It's not for everyone, but I personally found that in this type of situation, only prescribed medication suitable for OCD could diminish that cycle of thoughts. I worked really hard on not rising to the urge to ruminate or act on intrusive thoughts, and just accept that they exist, when my OCD has been at its worst. But these thoughts were incredibly disruptive, vivid, and were appearing repeatedly in dreams and affecting my sleep. If you haven't tried medication and have a really stubborn pattern of intrusive thoughts, despite working through appropriate therapy long term, medication could be worth looking into.

[Caramoole]

Just to play Devils Advocate....What happens if medication proves catastrophic for an individual?  Does that mean there is no hope?  I appreciate though that you said it's not for everyone

As far as I'm aware  there isn't a medication that cures or resolves OCD. It may help with anxiety (for some) and as a result, reduces the intensity of the thoughts & the anxiety, thus allowing  a sufferer to work on a psychological approach.  For anyone who suffers from intolerable side effects of medication, don't give up hope.  Despite the challenges, it's the psychological shift that will still see  beneficial changes & improvement

[Dantheman37]

On 28/06/2021 at 00:33, AmandaG said:

It's not for everyone, but I personally found that in this type of situation, only prescribed medication suitable for OCD could diminish that cycle of thoughts. I worked really hard on not rising to the urge to ruminate or act on intrusive thoughts, and just accept that they exist, when my OCD has been at its worst. But these thoughts were incredibly disruptive, vivid, and were appearing repeatedly in dreams and affecting my sleep. If you haven't tried medication and have a really stubborn pattern of intrusive thoughts, despite working through appropriate therapy long term, medication could be worth looking into.

It’s something I will consider. 

[Handy]

On 26/06/2021 at 10:51, PolarBear said:

Geez. You can't play tennis 24 hours a day.

Crickey, who stays awake 24 hours a day? 

[Handy]

There was a user, Andrea in this forum years ago, who began playing tennis for this. 

Rumination without compulsions is GAD, Generalized Anxiety Disorder. Might be worth looking at if OCD therapy didn’t change things. 

[iamwesker]

5 hours ago, Handy said:

Rumination without compulsions is GAD, Generalized Anxiety Disorder. Might be worth looking at if OCD therapy didn’t change things. 

Is that a fact or your little theory? I'm not so sure about that..

[Dantheman37]

On 28/06/2021 at 00:33, AmandaG said:

It's not for everyone, but I personally found that in this type of situation, only prescribed medication suitable for OCD could diminish that cycle of thoughts. I worked really hard on not rising to the urge to ruminate or act on intrusive thoughts, and just accept that they exist, when my OCD has been at its worst. But these thoughts were incredibly disruptive, vivid, and were appearing repeatedly in dreams and affecting my sleep. If you haven't tried medication and have a really stubborn pattern of intrusive thoughts, despite working through appropriate therapy long term, medication could be worth 

6 hours ago, iamwesker said:

Is that a fact or your little theory? I'm not so sure about that..

Look, this isn’t a place for arguing, this is about helping me. 

[Dantheman37]

On 28/06/2021 at 00:33, AmandaG said:

It's not for everyone, but I personally found that in this type of situation, only prescribed medication suitable for OCD could diminish that cycle of thoughts. I worked really hard on not rising to the urge to ruminate or act on intrusive thoughts, and just accept that they exist, when my OCD has been at its worst. But these thoughts were incredibly disruptive, vivid, and were appearing repeatedly in dreams and affecting my sleep. If you haven't tried medication and have a really stubborn pattern of intrusive thoughts, despite working through appropriate therapy long term, medication could be worth looking into.

Which medication would you recommend? 

[snowbear]

4 hours ago, Dantheman37 said:

Which medication would you recommend? 

Sorry, Dantheman, but that's not a question you should be asking on the forum.

Everybody responds differently to medication and something one person recommends because it suits them could be disaterous for you. 

This is a question you need to discuss with your GP or psychiatrist, whoever it is who prescribes your medication.

[Handy]

18 hours ago, iamwesker said:

Is that a fact or your little theory? I'm not so sure about that..

Some guy made up “Pure O” which is no compulsions.  There is no medical basis at all for it, even OCD UK agrees.  So what do they have if the thoughts are there but no compulsions that so so much similar to OCD?  This is a list of GAD symptoms:

Generalized anxiety disorder symptoms can vary. They may include:

Persistent worrying or anxiety about a number of areas that are out of proportion to the impact of the events

Overthinking plans and solutions to all possible worst-case outcomes

Perceiving situations and events as threatening, even when they aren't

Difficulty handling uncertainty

Indecisiveness and fear of making the wrong decision

Inability to set aside or let go of a worry

Inability to relax, feeling restless, and feeling keyed up or on edge

Difficulty concentrating, or the feeling that your mind "goes blank"

 

[Pikachu]

15 hours ago, Handy said:

Some guy made up “Pure O” which is no compulsions.  There is no medical basis at all for it, even OCD UK agrees.  

This isn’t true - OCD ‘Pure O’ is a misnomer, yes - OCD doesn’t exist without compulsions. But what the term was trying to describe is a type of OCD that can exist around many topics that does not have overt compulsions. What’s typically meant when someone says they have ‘Pure O’ is that they don’t have compulsions that people can see, but have plenty of mental compulsions such as checking, ruminating, testing, etc. These are all legitimate compulsions because just like any other compulsion, they are behaviours one feels compelled to partake in in order to dispel feelings of anxiety caused by their obsession. I mean, someone who worries about germs will wash their hands - why would someone who worries about being a pedophile do so? What other compulsion could they logically engage in other than mental ones to try and check and test that they aren’t what they fear? It wouldn’t make sense for them to start stacking books, but it’s still done for exactly the same reason as someone with contamination OCD would wash their hands. These are very recognised and studied areas of OCD - your saying their is no medical basis for it is false and shows a misunderstanding about what’s being discussed when someone says ‘Pure O’. Which, yeah - is totally a name many take issue with because it can be misinterpreted in this way to mean there are no compulsions, but there absolutely are and these are well recognised forms of OCD. 

Sorry for departing from the point of this thread, I just felt it was important to challenge any misinformation being given here. I hope all goes well, Dan!

[Handy]

7 hours ago, Pikachu said:

These are very recognised and studied areas of OCD - your saying their is no medical basis for it is false 

https://www.ocduk.org/ocd/pure-o/
 

“But does ‘Pure O’ exist?
Well as an online term yes, but as a form of OCD, not really, it’s merely a phrase. It’s certainly not a medically listed term, and we will try and explain why we don’t consider it a separate form of OCD.”. 
 

‘Nuff said. 

7 hours ago, Pikachu said: