Marijuana for OCD

[Summer9173]

On 23/09/2021 at 17:49, felix4 said:

I think it is really dangerous!

Weed can trigger psychosis in people with underlying mental health problems, oh & can really mess you up if suffering with existing mental health problems!

If you want to do it, it is your prerogative, but I don't agree with promoting it like you are!

I know this is an old thread but I thought I’d stress the importance of this  my brother had undiagnosed ADHD and untreated PTSD and he used cannabis as a coping mechanism, he ended up in a really bad psychosis episode for a couple of months in hospital and it was extremely tough. I don’t really remember much of that time as I blocked it out and I still can’t remember much of it, it’s just I know people see drugs as an escape or a bit of ‘fun’ but it’s really not, I’ve seen it ruin so many lives myself included and I haven’t even touched a drug in my life. A lot of people do weed, but people don’t speak about the effects of it. I don’t judge if you want to of course as everybody has a choice, but from experience please be careful , it induced a very bad psychosis episode in my 17 year old brother, absolutely heartbreaking.

[bluegas]

I think it’s important to bring up and mention different treatments ! There has to be something more than cbt and erp  both have been very unsuccessful for me ! Not suggesting it doesn’t work for some but ocd is different for everyone so there has to be something else ! I’ve even seen people in here say distraction works for them ! For me trying to distract myself dose not change the fact I’m feeling terrible ! I get out of bed every day and go to work which is a distraction on it’s own! But when ocd decides to give me hell it will ! Probably no different to if a sore throat or another illness wants to be really painful it will and the only thing that will help is suitable medication  ! So I for one are all for these debates!!

[PolarBear]

1 hour ago, bluegas said:

I think it’s important to bring up and mention different treatments ! There has to be something more than cbt and erp  both have been very unsuccessful for me ! Not suggesting it doesn’t work for some but ocd is different for everyone so there has to be something else ! I’ve even seen people in here say distraction works for them ! For me trying to distract myself dose not change the fact I’m feeling terrible ! I get out of bed every day and go to work which is a distraction on it’s own! But when ocd decides to give me hell it will ! Probably no different to if a sore throat or another illness wants to be really painful it will and the only thing that will help is suitable medication  ! So I for one are all for these debates!!

I disagree in that OCD is not different for everyone. At its core, the disorder operates the same way for everyone. Individual obsessions can be wildly different but all OCD involves obsessions that cause distress, compulsions and doubt.

It may be that you have something else going on in addition to OCD and just CBT won't do.

[Handy]

SSRIs and Marijuana: Cannabidiol, or CBD, in marijuana can increase the levels of SSRIs in your bloodstream because CBD blocks your body from clearing the antidepressant as quickly as normal. Having increased levels of serotonin in your body from SSRI use can cause a potentially fatal condition called serotonin syndrome.

Tricyclic antidepressants and CBD: The CBD in marijuana can increase the level of TCAs in your body. This can cause increased side effects like high blood pressure, dry mouth and constipation

[bluegas]

8 hours ago, PolarBear said:

I disagree in that OCD is not different for everyone. At its core, the disorder operates the same way for everyone. Individual obsessions can be wildly different but all OCD involves obsessions that cause distress, compulsions and doubt.

It may be that you have something else going on in addition to OCD and just CBT won't do.

I do wonder that myself at times but cbt dose not cut it when it comes to my obsessions I can pretty much ignore them and it just leaves me with this horrendous feeling! So for example all over Xmas it had me feeling terrible! Feel a bit better now but next special event it will be back to ruin it either same obsession as Xmas or a new one!! I know saying cbt don’t work is the cardinal sun in this forum but it actually doesn’t for people like me ! And no disrespect Pb I know your a great guy but maybe you got lucky I don’t know!!  but cbt for Severe ocd is as about as much use as sunglasses on a bloke with one ear !!! In my opinion 

[Handy]

16 hours ago, bluegas said:

Saying cbt don’t work is the cardinal sun in this forum but it actually doesn’t for people like me ! And no disrespect Pb I know your a great guy but maybe you got lucky I don’t know!!  but cbt for Severe ocd is as about as much use as sunglasses on a bloke with one ear !!! In my opinion 

According to Brainlock, CBT is successful perhaps 50% of the time. I don't know anyone who says its 100%.  In USA we have many other treatments.  

[snowbear]

17 hours ago, bluegas said:

I do wonder that myself at times but cbt dose not cut it when it comes to my obsessions I can pretty much ignore them and it just leaves me with this horrendous feeling!

Sounds like you're not applying CBT correctly. It's not just about ignoring the thoughts - that can be an avoidance compulsion. You have to stop giving them meaning and then disengage. When you do that the horredous feeling will stop happening and CBT might actually work for you too.

[bluegas]

Hi snowbear like handy said cbt is only 50 percent effective and believe me I’ve tried really hard to get it to work for me ! I know you and others mean well when you say we are not doing it right but I think you underestimate how serious this disorder is ! It’s great it works for you and so many others but the likes of me and so many others get left out in the cold and almost made to feel stupid!   I know at the moment cbt is pretty much all there is for ocd and that’s why I’ve tried so hard with it ! But the ocd community needs more ! And I think this forum needs more compassion for the ones it doesn’t work for at times ! Having said that I do really appreciate all the great work you do!

[snowbear]

Hi bluegas,

The reason I tell people not to give up on CBT is because I was once like you. For well over a decade CBT didn't work for me, indeed trying to apply it made me worse! I thought it was because my OCD was so severe, that I was maybe beyond help, that maybe I was one of those people whose OCD was resistant to CBT.

Then by chance I took an online course in how to teach CBT!  It was then I realised there had been 2 problems contributing to why it hadn't worked for me. The first was I hadn't been taught it properly and the way I was trying to do it was why it wasn't working. The second was I realised I hadn't been in the right headspace to apply it properly.

Fixed those 2 issues and hey presto - despite the severity of my symptoms and the total screwed upness of my thinking I was able to go from 'one of those people for whom CBT just doesn't work' to someone who found CBT works for all kinds of things from OCD to chronic pain to depression. You just have to understand what it is you're aiming for and apply it right.

So all I'm saying is you may be in the 50% of non-responders right now, but don't assume it will always be that way and don't give up. You're not stupid for not finding it helpful. It's not your fault if it isn't helping. Chances are you simply haven't been taught it in a way that 'clicks' with you yet.

Meanwhile, trust me, you have all my compassion. Been where you are, got the tshirt on being 'resistant to treatment'.   And I know I'm incredibly lucky to have finally 'got it' and been able to move forwards. My mission isan't to force CBT down anybody's throat. It's to find the riight words/ the right way to teach it so it 'clicks' with each individual and they too can reclaim their sanity and their life.

[Lynz]

48 minutes ago, snowbear said:

Then by chance I took an online course in how to teach CBT!  It was then I realised there had been 2 problems contributing to why it hadn't worked for me. The first was I hadn't been taught it properly and the way I was trying to do it was why it wasn't working. The second was I realised I hadn't been in the right headspace to apply it properly

Hey snowbear. What course was this? I'd be interested in taking this or a similar course myself.

[Summer9173]

Well my boyfriend smokes weed daily to deal with his issues, when he doesn’t smoke he’s not the best of people either and his mental health is a lot worse. However, I have also seen him hallucinate on weed, he’s also extremely paranoid because of it and it’s really not nice to see. Yes, it does ‘chill’ him out to the point he can even be unsociable, but personally I feel like the negatives outweigh the positives with weed in general. It also put my brother into a drug induced psychosis which I found is quite common with weed too. Of course, it’s anybody's choice to smoke it, I just feel like I wouldn’t because of how badly it’s effected my friends and family’s mental health in the long run, yes I guess short term it has helped them but in the long run, it’s actually been worse.

[felix4]

Quote

Then by chance I took an online course in how to teach CBT!  It was then I realised there had been 2 problems contributing to why it hadn't worked for me. The first was I hadn't been taught it properly and the way I was trying to do it was why it wasn't working. 

Hi @snowbear

I had lots & lots of CBT on the NHS, both group and one to one.

It was only after attending a more specialised NHS linked OCD Clinic that I realised how useless the previous therapists had all been!  No 2 out of 5-ish sets were the same, & it as if each therapist had learned CBT & gone off-piste with their own interpretations???

 

 

[Summer9173]

6 minutes ago, felix4 said:

Hi @snowbear

I had lots & lots of CBT on the NHS, both group and one to one.

It was only after attending a more specialised NHS linked OCD Clinic that I realised how useless the previous therapists had all been!  No 2 out of 5-ish sets were the same, & it as if each therapist had learned CBT & gone off-piste with their own interpretations???

 

 

What did the OCD specialists do that the other therapists couldn’t if you don’t mind me asking?  I’m really interested as IAPT therapy hasn’t really helped me either.

[snowbear]

29 minutes ago, Lynz said:

Hey snowbear. What course was this? I'd be interested in taking this or a similar course myself.

It was on Future Learn, called CBT for Low Back Pain.  The 6 week course was for GPs so by the end they could set up a back pain clinic in their surgeries. I just checked for the link and it's not available at the moment, but keep an eye out for it as they often repeat things on FL.   You being a nurse, it would suit you.

There are quite a few free courses on how to do CBT, you just have to read the blurb to choose which one is appropriate for what you're after. I haven't done it that way so can't recommend a specific course provider, but Google it!

I took the FL course because I live with chronic pain, though not back pain. But whatever you're treating, the fundamental principles of CBT remain the same. I think it was seeing how it is applied across a wide spectrum of disorders that finally made me see what those fundamentals are, and how to keep coming back to them when you get too lost in details and specifics.

 

31 minutes ago, felix4 said:

No 2 out of 5-ish sets were the same, & it as if each therapist had learned CBT & gone off-piste with their own interpretations???

I think that can be a problem sometimes, felix.   That's why I like to keep coming back to the fundamental basics time after time. The CBT principle boils down to changing your thinking and changing your behaviour - so obvious and simple when you put it like that! As long as you keep those 2 goals in your sights you can't go far wrong.

[felix4]

3 minutes ago, Summer9173 said:

What did the OCD specialists do that the other therapists couldn’t if you don’t mind me asking?  I’m really interested as IAPT therapy hasn’t really helped me either.

Hi Summer,

I just got the impression that they (2 ladies & the one leading being very French with a lovely accent) rigidly stuck to what they had been taught! The course was over 12 weekly sessions, & I think 2 hours per session. It was well structured, the initial CBT took the "sting" out of the following ERP sessions, which involved both actually doing ERP during latter sessions, & homework!

The ladies were very clear & would go back over anything not quite understood.

It was a small group of us. Initially 4 but one young lady dropped out, so 3 of us carried on, & ERP would involve suffers creating ERP for each other, & then going into my local town to carry out the ERP & the other 2 making sure it had been carried out! I will spare you exactly what other ERP type stuff we did, but like I say, it not as daunting after all with the right CBT & sting taken out.

What made me laugh was, the 2 therapist suggested we have a tea or coffee together on the last session, which we did, but then they, the therapists contaminated!   I thought we got on so well lol, but yes, it was a kind of mental contaminated relate to our individual themes.  

I think another thing was, although we got on well, they were quite professionally strict with ERP, whereas the other therapists seemed very/too relaxed.  

 

I hope this all makes sense.

 

[bluegas]

1 hour ago, snowbear said:

Hi bluegas,

The reason I tell people not to give up on CBT is because I was once like you. For well over a decade CBT didn't work for me, indeed trying to apply it made me worse! I thought it was because my OCD was so severe, that I was maybe beyond help, that maybe I was one of those people whose OCD was resistant to CBT.

Then by chance I took an online course in how to teach CBT!  It was then I realised there had been 2 problems contributing to why it hadn't worked for me. The first was I hadn't been taught it properly and the way I was trying to do it was why it wasn't working. The second was I realised I hadn't been in the right headspace to apply it properly.

Fixed those 2 issues and hey presto - despite the severity of my symptoms and the total screwed upness of my thinking I was able to go from 'one of those people for whom CBT just doesn't work' to someone who found CBT works for all kinds of things from OCD to chronic pain to depression. You just have to understand what it is you're aiming for and apply it right.

So all I'm saying is you may be in the 50% of non-responders right now, but don't assume it will always be that way and don't give up. You're not stupid for not finding it helpful. It's not your fault if it isn't helping. Chances are you simply haven't been taught it in a way that 'clicks' with you yet.

Meanwhile, trust me, you have all my compassion. Been where you are, got the tshirt on being 'resistant to treatment'.   And I know I'm incredibly lucky to have finally 'got it' and been able to move forwards. My mission isan't to force OCD down anybody's throat. It's to find the riight words/ the right way to teach it so it 'clicks' with each individual and they too can reclaim their sanity and their life.

Thanks I’d definitely be interested in taking a look at this course ! I don’t think you ram it down peoples throat but why can’t cbt help with  bipolar Alzheimer’s and other brain disorders! If it’s that easy to learn this course that someone with ocd managed to learn on line !!  why is it not being rolled out across the globe ?? I’m so pleased for you but unfortunately for me and quite a few others when our brains decide to torture us there’s not a lot we can do but live through it ! Maybe certain people respond to cbt and some don’t just like any other treatment!!  I just think there has to be more out there 

[snowbear]

CBT is already used to treat schizophrenia, an illness that's usually credited to genetic makeup and chemical changes in the brain.   I think it is being 'rolled out' across the globe in a way. There have been times these last few years it's been tempting to roll my eyes at the science journals and say,  'yet another thing being treated with CBT? Sheesh! Whatever next.'

 

55 minutes ago, bluegas said:

unfortunately for me and quite a few others when our brains decide to torture us there’s not a lot we can do but live through it !

Whether it's CBT or some other treatment, nobody has to put up with OCD and just live through it.

One area of interest for me has been looking at the barriers people consciously and unconsciously put in the way of change.

Very important we recognise this isn't a blame game. But often there are pay-offs to holding onto our OCD. They can be obvious or subtle. They can be simple, or a complex layering of a lifetime of personal experiences, beliefs, reasoning and values. But I'd bet my pension if we looked we'd find them in every person who says they have been resistant to treatment.

So what do I mean by a payoff?

Well, a common one is where you beat yourself up with guilt. You get told that the right thing to do is forgive yourself, change your inner dialogue and let it go. But if you genuinely believe you don't deserve happiness, or that you 'should' be punished for the thoughts you have then it feels all wrong to be kind to yourself, to talk kindly to yourself, to let yourself 'off the hook'. So you (knowingly or unconsciously) hold yourself to account by ruminating, indulge in cruel self-talk, and go round and round in circles of OCD thinking fueled by more OCD thinking.

The payoff is you get to feel you're doing the right thing morally in beating yourself up.

For some people that need to be scrupulously moral (as they interpret it) far outweighs any pain endured from the OCD continuing to be there.

Notice I said, as they interpret it. 

Because the truth is that guilt-tripping yourself isn't a moral virtue. That's a twisted interpretation of what it means to be a moral person. There is no hook to be let off. That's a twisted way of interpreting right and wrong. And those guilty feelings? They come from using blame thinking to interpret your world.

So first you learn there are many other styles of thinking apart from the typical ones found in people with deeply ingrained OCD. You learn to recognise when you're using these unhelpful ways of interpreting your world

- all or nothing thinking (believing you're either morally perfect or morally corupt)

-judgemental thinking (everything is either good or bad, right or wrong)

- blame thinking (when something feels bad or goes wrong someone always has to be held accountable/ responsible for it)

and you discover you're allowed to change to a more useful style of thinking, a more healthy way to interpret that same world so that you get a different outcome.

For example, you replace being judgemental and dishing out blame for open-minded thinking and acceptance. You replace the anxiety conjured up by all that doubt and uncertainty with curiosity and playfulness. And so on.

The situations you are in don't change. The thoughts don't vanish. How you respond changes. And that changes the outcome. Changes everything.

But we have to be willing to allow ourselves to change. Willing to adopt these alternative ways of interpreting our world. And sometimes that can be hard, especially if you were raised by parents who were always passing judgement, blame and punishment routinely and it's part habit, part belief, and been deeply ingrained by repetition over your whole lifetime.

Are you starting to glimpse how the C (cognitive/thinking) part of CBT works?

And perhaps you can indetify some of your own personal 'payoffs' that make it extra hard for you to allow change to happen?

Remember, if all this looking at things from a new angle leaves you with a feeling that somethings just not right, chances are it's because you're still interpreting your feelings using one of the closed thinking styles (passing judgement, attributing blame.) Just needs a bit more untwisting and a bit more practise to master the skill. But anyone can do it once they understand what it is they currently do , what they're aiming for, and give themselves permission to change.

[Lynz]

3 hours ago, snowbear said:

It was on Future Learn, called CBT for Low Back Pain.  The 6 week course was for GPs so by the end they could set up a back pain clinic in their surgeries. I just checked for the link and it's not available at the moment, but keep an eye out for it as they often repeat things on FL.   You being a nurse, it would suit you.

There are quite a few free courses on how to do CBT, you just have to read the blurb to choose which one is appropriate for what you're after. I haven't done it that way so can't recommend a specific course provider, but Google it!

I took the FL course because I live with chronic pain, though not back pain. But whatever you're treating, the fundamental principles of CBT remain the same. I think it was seeing how it is applied across a wide spectrum of disorders that finally made me see what those fundamentals are, and how to keep coming back to them when you get too lost in details and specifics.

Thanks snowbear . I use Futurelearn quite lot so I'll keep an eye out.

[bluegas]

1 hour ago, snowbear said:

CBT is already used to treat schizophrenia, an illness that's usually credited to genetic makeup and chemical changes in the brain.   I think it is being 'rolled out' across the globe in a way. There have been times these last few years it's been tempting to roll my eyes at the science journals and say,  'yet another thing being treated with CBT? Sheesh! Whatever next.'

 

Whether it's CBT or some other treatment, nobody has to put up with OCD and just live through it.

One area of interest for me has been looking at the barriers people consciously and unconsciously put in the way of change.

Very important we recognise this isn't a blame game. But often there are pay-offs to holding onto our OCD. They can be obvious or subtle. They can be simple, or a complex layering of a lifetime of personal experiences, beliefs, reasoning and values. But I'd bet my pension if we looked we'd find them in every person who says they have been resistant to treatment.

So what do I mean by a payoff?

Well, a common one is where you beat yourself up with guilt. You get told that the right thing to do is forgive yourself, change your inner dialogue and let it go. But if you genuinely believe you don't deserve happiness, or that you 'should' be punished for the thoughts you have then it feels all wrong to be kind to yourself, to talk kindly to yourself, to let yourself 'off the hook'. So you (knowingly or unconsciously) hold yourself to account by ruminating, indulge in cruel self-talk, and go round and round in circles of OCD thinking fueled by more OCD thinking.

The payoff is you get to feel you're doing the right thing morally in beating yourself up.

For some people that need to be scrupulously moral (as they interpret it) far outweighs any pain endured from the OCD continuing to be there.

Notice I said, as they interpret it. 

Because the truth is that guilt-tripping yourself isn't a moral virtue. That's a twisted interpretation of what it means to be a moral person. There is no hook to be let off. That's a twisted way of interpreting right and wrong. And those guilty feelings? They come from using blame thinking to interpret your world.

So first you learn there are many other styles of thinking apart from the typical ones found in people with deeply ingrained OCD. You learn to recognise when you're using these unhelpful ways of interpreting your world

- all or nothing thinking (believing you're either morally perfect or morally corupt)

-judgemental thinking (everything is either good or bad, right or wrong)

- blame thinking (when something feels bad or goes wrong someone always has to be held accountable/ responsible for it)

and you discover you're allowed to change to a more useful style of thinking, a more healthy way to interpret that same world so that you get a different outcome.

For example, you replace being judgemental and dishing out blame for open-minded thinking and acceptance. You replace the anxiety conjured up by all that doubt and uncertainty with curiosity and playfulness. And so on.

The situations you are in don't change. The thoughts don't vanish. How you respond changes. And that changes the outcome. Changes everything.

But we have to be willing to allow ourselves to change. Willing to adopt these alternative ways of interpreting our world. And sometimes that can be hard, especially if you were raised by parents who were always passing judgement, blame and punishment routinely and it's part habit, part belief, and been deeply ingrained by repetition over your whole lifetime.

Are you starting to glimpse how the C (cognitive/thinking) part of CBT works?

And perhaps you can indetify some of your own personal 'payoffs' that make it extra hard for you to allow change to happen?

Remember, if all this looking at things from a new angle leaves you with a feeling that somethings just not right, chances are it's because you're still interpreting your feelings using one of the closed thinking styles (passing judgement, attributing blame.) Just needs a bit more untwisting and a bit more practise to master the skill. But anyone can do it once they understand what it is they currently do , what they're aiming for, and give themselves permission to change.

I do completely understand what your saying and you definitely raise some interesting points!  But I feel my brain is my brain and it stands by what it’s believes rather than what I think (if that makes sense) so for example I could have been drunkenly flirting with a girl 10 years ago and my brain would not even think about it until a few days before I go on hoiliday or Christmas !! then torture the hell out of me until I confess to my poor wife but a friend could actually physically cheat on his wife and I wouldn’t judge him at all ! My own wife could cheat on me and I’d be hurt but I would not see it as the end of the world!! So I don’t see where my judgement or moral compass comes from ! But you raise another good point on parents ! even though I had  a good up bringing  my parents are very judgmental and as kids we were not punished with being grounded!!   but silent treatment and made to feel very guilty so maybe that is where the shame and guilt come from!!  But one thing I can’t seem to change is my filters for example if I feel guilty about something it’s the worst guilt you can feel the same as any other emotion it’s all or nothing and there’s seems to be no way of switching this off until something in my brain goes right I’m gonna be normal now and then I could go a long period of time where nothing bothers me!! It’s all so complex 

[Handy]

10 hours ago, Summer9173 said:

Well my boyfriend smokes weed daily to deal with his issues, when he doesn’t smoke he’s not the best of people either and his mental health is a lot worse. However, I have also seen him hallucinate on weed, he’s also extremely paranoid because of it and it’s really not nice to see. 

That's because a little bit of it makes one better but after that one gets the reverse effect. 

[taurean]

What helps for me is taking vitamin and mineral supplements which help keep my mind and body healthy.

Plenty of exercise, incorporating mindfulness awareness.

Meditation to calm my mind and body.

And of course applying the teachings of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, so I don't respond to any triggers and don't carry out compulsions. 

When I am in an episode of OCD, and anxiety is a problem  the doctor prescribes me with a low dose of propranolol, the betablocker, which eases down the symptoms.