Are you always aware of your checking compulsions?

[Cora]

1 minute ago, Caramoole said:

And was the baby harmed Cora?  Was this an action that you think you should be investigated for and that the authorities should prosecute for?

I'm not sure, @Caramoole. I agree that I have a distorted thinking so according to my mind, I should be investigated. But when you look at the facts, no baby was harmed. However, there's also the fact that I obtained sexual gratification using a child so it's very confusing to me.  

[Caramoole]

Well the first point to make is that you aren't in a position to reliably make that deduction because as yet, you aren't able to understand the reality because it's distorted by OCD vision

[Cora]

4 minutes ago, Caramoole said:

Well the first point to make is that you aren't in a position to reliably make that deduction because as yet, you aren't able to understand the reality because it's distorted by OCD vision

Can I ask if there's a second point? 

[Caramoole]

24 minutes ago, Cora said:

Can I ask if there's a second point? 

There's a lot more than two points but I got waylaid by a phone call

[Cora]

On 05/11/2021 at 19:44, snowbear said:

What you did was a checking / self-testing compulsion. Including checking to see if you were enjoying the experience and focusing on your body's responses.

This makes so much sense but that wasn't my thinking at that time so I think that's why I'm so worried and stuck. what happened was that I identified the feeling in my groinal area, I started focusing on it, realised that it felt enjoyable, wanted it to be there for a longer period of time, stood up from the crossed leg position while having the baby's feet on my pelvic area on purpose to have that feeling for longer, and only after all of that, which probably lasted from 30 to 50 seconds, I think, I understood that something was off and I moved the baby's away.  

I'm finding it very hard to accept that it was a self-testing compulsion and I don't know what else to do. 

[Cora]

7 minutes ago, Cora said:

This makes so much sense but that wasn't my thinking at that time so I think that's why I'm so worried and stuck. what happened was that I identified the feeling in my groinal area, I started focusing on it, realised that it felt enjoyable, wanted it to be there for a longer period of time, stood up from the crossed leg position while having the baby's feet on my pelvic area on purpose to have that feeling for longer, and only after all of that, which probably lasted from 30 to 50 seconds, I think, I understood that something was off and I moved the baby's away.  

I'm finding it very hard to accept that it was a self-testing compulsion and I don't know what else to do. 

I also want to add that this is not my OCD making stuff up - this is my real memory.

[Cora]

On 05/11/2021 at 19:44, snowbear said:

What you did was a checking / self-tresting compulsion. Including checking to see if you were enjoying the experience and focusing on your body's responses.

Just another thought. 

Reading the description of the incident from above, isn't saying that what happened was a checking compulsion trying to hide from the truth, which in my eyes is a form of indirect child abuse?

Again, I mean no offense at all. This subject has been bugging me for years now and I can't take it anymore. 

[Caramoole]

Okay.....so what's your next step Cora?  You have the opinion of experienced OCD sufferers here, of several therapists and yet you chose to ignore that.  Are you going to continue down the path of ignoring advice & suffering?  I know it's really tough.......honestly, I do........but where are we going with this one?  Are you prepared to try the advice or are you going to continue with methods that don't work?

 

 

 

 

[Cora]

8 minutes ago, Caramoole said:

You have the opinion of experienced OCD sufferers here, of several therapists and yet you chose to ignore that.

@Caramoole, it is not my intention to ignore the advice, but a part of me is literally screaming at me saying that I did something incredibly disturbing so looking for different methods/explanations feels compulsory. It's a voice that's been getting louder and louder for the past two years.

I don't really know what else to say. I've been given all the advice I could ever get yet I'm still stuck. 

[Caramoole]

7 hours ago, Cora said:

@Caramoole, it is not my intention to ignore the advice, but a part of me is literally screaming at me saying that I did something incredibly disturbing so looking for different methods/explanations feels compulsory. It's a voice that's been getting louder and louder for the past two years.

I don't really know what else to say. I've been given all the advice I could ever get yet I'm still stuck. 

That's because you're not changing your method of dealing with it.  If you don't steadily try to change the reaction nothing will improve.  This is where you're stuck because you try and deal with the anxiety, the uncertainty with multiple compulsions and that just maintains the problem

[malina]

8 hours ago, Cora said:

a part of me is literally screaming at me saying that I did something incredibly disturbing so looking for different methods/explanations feels compulsory. It's a voice that's been getting louder and louder for the past two years.

Cora what you seem to still fail to see is that what you describe here is literally the OCD, this is like the definition of OCD, the very core of it. And do you know why this voice is getting louder? Because you are speaking with it, it calls to you and you instantly respond and do exactly what it wants you to.

This voice has gotten so much power over you that you are like a hamster on a wheel, going in circles and repeating the same behaviours even though so many people now have given you reassurance and advice.

Look at what you are doing on this thread - PB described a similar situation to the one you are worried about, but do you feel satisfied? No, you immediately think of a difference between you and him. You have been told so many times how you did nothing wrong, yet you reject it time after time.

This is why everyone keeps saying it's up to you and why your thread was closed etc. You stubbornly choose to listen to the voice in your head. We all understand how hard it is not to, but no input from any of us is going to help until you start listening to someone outside of your head.

[Cora]

4 hours ago, malina said:

You have been told so many times how you did nothing wrong, yet you reject it time after time

@malina, I'm just really worried that people are not focusing on the fact that I did what I did on purpose, even though I never planned it. I'm scared people are missing this part, hence making the wrong conclusion. 

[Cora]

9 minutes ago, discuccsant said:

It's fascinating to see all these very different approaches to stuff like that and how much they differ from mine approach. I had a very similar moment to Cora. I'm not here for reassurance, though, as I think it's mostly laughable today. But it's still in my head, very slightly, yet it defines me. Furthermore, I nevertheless might think, that I made it much harder for me to move on, instead of accepting my condition as the reason for these weird and random moments.

I really suffered from the very same theme as Cora is suffering from. It was literally about touching anyone inappropriately: Pets, Friends, Colleagues, Females, Men, Children and so on. Exactly like Cora. All of that was basically triggered, because once I unknowingly touched a close female friend of mine at her “upper area”, when I didn't look at where I put my hands on and wasn't aware of that. I think everybody knows moments like that, though. It was completely embarrassing for me back then, and I was shocked and frozen at the moment, when I realized where I touched her: Your classic beginning of a new OCD theme. Even though, my friend never made a big deal out of it — she even laughed about it, because she knew it was an accident — I was completely horrified by the situation. It's still very hard for me, to be honest, to talk with strangers about it, yet I have accepted, that I didn't do anything wrong. I also felt really guilty, as if I accidentally cheated on my wife. But even she laughed about it.

Because of this incident, I questioned my values, as I thought, that it's pretty easy to sexually assault someone. Before that, I thought of people who do things like that as people, who are just completely evil and people, that have psychological issues. I never felt any kind of relation to them. It was just so alien to me that I didn't even consider it a possibility of mine.

And in my case, I always thought like this, whenever similar events like that happened: Technically speaking — and no matter the circumstances — you DID in fact touch the person at a very private area. It doesn't matter that your intentions never were evil, and that you were never aware of it, it just matters, that you in fact did so outwardly watch. So everything for me was like: You accidentally touched a person foot with your foot, when you sit on a table? You sexually assaulted someone. You accidentally touched the bottom of some guy with your hands, when you tried to leave the plain or train, when he was in the way? Yes, it was sexual assault, you should have waited. Because in the end, what only matters, is that you touched them inappropriately, and it doesn't matter what your inward intentions were or that you were not aware of the action. This is technically speaking touching someone inappropriately. So yes, you did sexual assault someone. Absurd, but that's just classical OCD AND having a very rigid moral compass, where there is no in-between, no accidents whatsoever.

So obviously, it was constantly on my mind, that I have to be careful, to not touch anyone unknowingly. I also developed intrusive thoughts, urges and feelings because of that: I always got hyperaware of a situation, where I was very close to someone and then was focused on that. I then felt an urge as if I want to make the movement, just to snap out of it and be completely shocked and horrified by this. Why would I have this feeling of wanting it? With time, I also felt groinal responses, because I began to question, that everything that happened, was something I in fact did subconsciously. Like that I actually wanted to touch them, this way all the time, and that my mind was just lying to me. I wanted it, without know it. Absurd, but OCD. At the same time, the more I focused, the more sensations down there I began to feel.

And the more incidents like these happened, the more I began to distance myself from everyone. Because of Covid-19, I basically had a very easy time to practice avoidance, without the fear of being socially outed because of that. This went on for like half a year. It got worse and worse. So it was a constant fear of mine, that I somehow would touch anyone inappropriately, and I was really, really cautious and hyperaware of my surroundings. I had one coping mechanism, though, which helped me “to find a way out” and which I worked on, to accept as part of my moral compass: 

You never intended to so actively. You were never aware of it. Likewise, you have no fault, and you need to accept, that it's completely normal and that this happens to everyone. You can't control your subconscious actions, so it's not your fault.

But then one incident happened, which I couldn't cope out from this. And here is what happened.

I was basically was playing basket ball with my friends fairly often — yes, even though we had Covid-19 and yes, it was dumb, but never took it that serious. And during one game, I had an encounter, where I felt that my hand was fairly close to a friend's genital area. Obviously, people's bodies are quite close to each other when playing basket ball, so it's pretty normal. But because of my OCD, I was constantly aware of this proximity. And then he moved his body in such a way, that he touched my hand with his pelvic area. I began to feel groinal response, but had no urge or anything like that. Obviously my anxiety began to spike, and I wanted to move my hand away and in fact also did so. I wanted to escape this, without creating an awkward situation, though, so I just placed my hand somewhere else and not walk away or anything like that. It didn't feel right, though, to position them differently, because it was somehow uncomfortable and not my natural position.

So when I tried to figure out where to put my hand and after even moving it to these alternative positions, I suddenly had an intrusive urge, to move my hand to exactly where it was before or even closer. And all of this knowingly, that I'm going to touch my friend's genital area. And in this very moment, it felt really like as if I really wanted to touch him down there and that I liked it, combined with this groinal sensation.

And then somehow, out of a sudden, I went through, and I put my hands exactly there. It felt as if I'm doing something wrong, just very sneakily. And as it was with Cora, it went on for some seconds. I was completely aware that I was touching my friend's genital area with my hand. And because we obviously always moved when covering each other, he constantly re-touched my hands with his pelvic area. This went on for like five to ten seconds. And each time he re-touched my hands down there, I felt a groinal response. I wouldn't say it felt like, as if I was horny or something like that, but I had a weird feeling combined with my groinal response, as if I wanted it to touch me. And what horrified me the most was, that it also felt, as if I moved my hands towards his genital area slightly closer with time: I wasn't sure about that though, but even today think it's very plausible.

And yeah, after the situation was over, I was IMMEDIATELY shocked about what just happened. This was the worst experience I've ever had back then in my “OCD career”. I never classified it as something OCD related though, in the sense, that all the sensations and so on were just OCD produced sensations. I always “accepted”, that I did this on purpose and out of a sexual intent, because I felt groinal sensations and because it felt for me, as if I wanted and liked it in this very moment. I was never really "horny" though, as I am when spending time with my wife. Everything just felt "sexual", especially because of the groinal sensations.

I was able to overcome it by talking with this said friend about this. While he just laughed about it, I was just horrified, horrified and disgusted by myself. Yet, he was like: “Common, everybody has weird moments like that, no worries, brother”. He made fun of me, because of how I reacted to everything. For me it wasn't that easy though. I knew I'm not gay, and I knew I'm not attracted to said friend. But this never really was my issue with all of this. My issue was just, that I sexually assaulted someone KNOWINGLY. Whilst before, I always had this coping mechanism, that “It was just accidental”, this time it wasn't for me accidental: I was fully aware of the situation. I wanted it. I had a groinal response. And worst of all, it felt as if I even liked it.

With time, I asked other people about that, but everyone was just laughing and made fun of my overreaction. They knew who I am, and they knew that I wouldn't even hurt a fly. I'm known as a pacifist and very sophisticated guy. Yet for me, it literally took me like one year to move on from it. I'm grateful to said friend, because at some point he realized, that I really developed a trauma out of this, so that he constantly talked with me about this and in the end, arranage a therapist for me. And, thank god, he did so.

That's why I consider myself today “free of OCD” in the sense, that I really accepted that everybody does mistakes and that moments like that don't define you in the end. And compared to real sexual assaults, it's just completely minor. In therapy, we focused on identifying the compulsions, but I never talked about the incident itself. It was OCD, that's for sure, as I was diagnosed so. I had a lot of different themes througout my life, but was only aware that I have OCD, after this incident. My therapist just listened and then began to work on it together with me. No reassurance whatsoever. Just focusing on OCD itself and how to battle it from a meta level.

So, reading all of these explanations, I wonder how this particular incident fits into OCD. Is it also just textbook OCD? Because this incidentis still in the back of my head, but not really that present anymore. I'm a here and then down for like a minute. And yes, it also feels like, as if there is “no going back”. Even today, it feels as if I'm deprived of my innocence. I knew what I did. I knew what I had done. For me, it's like as if it'a new chapter of my life. So I'm just accepting everything and try to forgive myself. And therefore I can move on from that and were succsefull in doing so. And therapy was basically helping me to stop all the compulsions.

And I think Cora is, as well, really struggling to understand, how this is still OCD. That's what I did: I never put into the same category. So, where is the line between distorted OCD view and reality? Especially when we are 99% convinced that it happened like that. Maybe this would help also me, to not even think about it here and then anymore, but just to move on from it forever. I would love to feel like my old self: Happy, without any kind of emotional pain I have to live with, even if it's just for seconds. I think the worst, even today, for me is, that I just feel like a different type of person. Like there is a pre- and post-incident time for me in my life. Maybe I'm still a sufferer from OCD, yet I'm just able to live on with it? I don't know. I changed my status to “Ex-Sufferer”, but reading all of that, I think I might have lied to myself?  I don't know, and reading all of this, just confused the hell out of me.

Is there any kind of textbook examples for moments like that? Any articles to understand moments like that better, where it really feels like reality? I'm aware of Thought-Action-Fusion, but the examples given here doesn't really fit the same category.

I really would love to have answers. I also feel like I'm not really hijacking Cora's thread, but it's basically the same issue as Cora does have, just in a different scenario.

Hi @discuccsant,

I'm really, really sorry that you are struggling with such a similar issue. 

I really hope my post didn't trigger you, or make you feel worse regarding this subject - but I'm very sorry if that is the case indeed. 

 

[discuccsant]

Just now, Cora said:

Hi @discuccsant,

I'm really, really sorry that you are struggling with such a similar issue. 

I really hope my post didn't trigger you, or make you feel worse regarding this subject - but I'm very sorry if that is the case indeed. 

 

No, it didn't trigger anything, haha. This just made me re-evaluate myself. In fact, I think this might be helpful for me to understand anything much better. Knowledge is key, and maybe I'm just missing something the whole time. So no need to feel bad or anything. I think my incident is laughable, objectively speaking. If this happened to my friend, I would make fun of him with ease. I think I just suffer from some kind of inner perfectionism, so that I can't that easily tell myself the same. Forgiving others is far easier, than forgiving myself.

I live on with that and I function. I'm just not like before. For me, something has changed forever in my self perception. It's not necessarily bad, it just feels different to me. It's as if I have wakened up.

[malina]

32 minutes ago, Cora said:

@malina, I'm just really worried that people are not focusing on the fact that I did what I did on purpose, even though I never planned it. I'm scared people are missing this part, hence making the wrong conclusion. 

Yet another very OCD thing Cora. Trust me you have repeated the fact that this was on purpose so many times and have highlighted it in bold so many times that people have to be either blind or unable to read to have missed it.

so nobody is making a big deal about it, what does that tell you?

[Cora]

Just now, malina said:

so nobody is making a big deal about it, what does that tell you?

That it is as not important as I think it is?

But I just don't understand how it's not...

[discuccsant]

20 minutes ago, Cora said:

That it is as not important as I think it is?

But I just don't understand how it's not...

I understand Cora very clearly. I think Cora is exactly like I was. The question Cora and I do have: Why is nobody making a big deal out of it? Because it never happened the way we think it might have happened in our perception, and that our OCD just altered our interpretation of said events? Or simply because it's not a big deal what happened, but it nevertheless happened? This becomes more and more confusing.

[Cora]

7 minutes ago, discuccsant said:

Because it never happened the way we think it might have happened in our perception, and that our OCD just altered our interpretation of said events? 

Well, that's the thing: in my case, I'm fully convinced that it happened just like I remember it and that it's not my OCD making stuff up. 

 

9 minutes ago, discuccsant said:

This becomes more and more confusing

I have to say that I agree. 

[discuccsant]

23 minutes ago, Cora said:

Well, that's the thing: in my case, I'm fully convinced that it happened just like I remember it and that it's not my OCD making stuff up.

Being convinced of something, doesn't mean that it really happened the way it happened. PolarBear made a good point: Maybe we just had an intrusive thought, while we did something and therefore in our perception we confuse and mess things up. Because if you look at my and if we look at your incident from the outward, they both seem like complete normal and innocent actions in the very context: You played with a baby and I just played basket ball. Nobody from the outside would see anything disturbing in all of this. 

It's just the inner feeling that makes us see it as something evil or bad. And as you said: We both never planned something like that. And if you take my example, I literally had a big anxiety spike the very second before: So I was already in this OCD mode of overreacting to a very normal situation. We both were hyperaware of the very proximity. And both actions were complete out of character actions. We both can't identify with them. I mean, we both would never plan out something like that.

So can't you imagine that OCD somehow influenced our thinking than by confusing our minds in making us believe, that we actually intended it? I agree with you, though, that it really feels like, as if we did it on purpose. It feels real. It feels as if we wanted it.

Edited November 7, 2021 by discuccsant

[discuccsant]

If there is an answer to all of that, I would love to understand this. People with OCD never act out on what they fear. That's why I viewed this incident as outside the OCD stuff. Like my buddies and friends simply explained to me, I always think of it as some kind of weird moment, that happened once in my life, but that happens to everyone. Everything before was clearly OCD for me: The initial incident, the avoidance part, the fear, the hyperawareness of situations, where there is some kind of very proximity and one action, could go against everything we value and so on and on. But not this incident.

Now, taking those two situations, they both are obviously quite different from the other ones for us. They felt as real as it gets. Never planned out though, but as if they were done on purpose in the very moment, combined with sensations down there. As if we liked them and wanted them. And unlike false memory, we immediately interpreted them as evil. So it's not in the OCD spectrum of things for us anymore.

But what if we just have OCD about our OCD? And people here are suggesting things like that! That's why I think, that we both need some kind of key explanation for all of this, just because it feels very different to us than in comparison to all the other events. Maybe there is one? Maybe there is not? Maybe we completely misunderstand how OCD really works? People here seem like to dismiss it easily as just another OCDish incident. And I personally, and you as well, really wonder why they do so, right? Did they read or know something, we both simply don't know and are not aware off? Did we miss a very important key in understanding of how OCD works?

I know, this screams like reassurance, but knowledge isn't reassurance, but the key to all of this. I just want to understand all of this, because I simply don't.

[Cora]

1 minute ago, discuccsant said:

I just want to understand all of this, because I simply don't.

Me too, I want to understand this as well. 

[Caramoole]

44 minutes ago, Cora said:

Me too, I want to understand this as well. 

This can't be by people constantly re-writing this with more and more examples or offering more and more reassurance Cora.  And this is what's happening again.  This doesn't help you, it keeps you stuck because it assists with your need for reassurance.  You now have to take some responsibility for your recovery by using the advice.....namely working on reducing these compulsions.  You're resisting this because it's hard and creates anxiety......sure it does.  Sadly, it's an inevitable part of the process and one that you will have to try and work through.

Every explanation, every example, every clarification on every point has been covered many, many times and in many ways.  There will not be an answer that goes "BOOM.......Got It".......there'll just be another question, then another and another and two years on we (and more importantly, you) will still be here going over the same things.

You must do something to change your reaction and response.  Are you up for that?  Are you going to come up with a plan for how you can change that reaction when one of these doubts or incidents crops up?

[discuccsant]

Can you refer to an anything where this is explained? I mean, it's hard to believe something, without any kind of explanation. At least I haven't seen any explanation, except the one PolarBear posted, but it was very short. Looking at her history, I didn't find any explanation to events like that. Sometimes the answers just confuse me, because some users in fact see it, as I see it: I never considered what happened to me as part of OCD (that's why I apologized, because I seem to have not understood how OCD really works).

I just thought the reaction to real events like that (exaggerating the importance) is OCD. I never questioned the event. Yeah, there is the term “false memory” for stuff very similar to that, but can you develop a false memory IMMEDIATELY after it happened? Does OCD make it like that for you?

I would love any explanation, because I think the answer will make me finally free of OCD once and for all. I just want to feel COMPLETELY free of it forever. It sucks to believe, that I actually acted on an urge. But if there is any explanation, that it's not necessarily true, I think I can finally close the chapter of having OCD in my life.

Thanks for any explanation in advance.

[Caramoole]

21 minutes ago, discuccsant said:

Can you refer to an anything where this is explained? I mean, it's hard to believe something, without any kind of explanation

With respect, this has been an ongoing issue for Cora (in varying forms) for over two years.  The examples, explanations, analogies, confirmations have been in the thousands.  Sadly with OCD a sufferer will often continue to ask for reassurance unless or until they see something that is "exact" in detail with every "i" dotted and every "t" crossed.  It's rare that this ever happens and we have to take that leap of faith and move forward without the guarantee of certainty.  We have to start to action the advice regardless based on known, effective therapy models.

I think it may be helpful for your own query to be started in it's own thread.  It might also be helpful to try and shorten the length of the posts a little too.  Sometimes in an effort to provide as much detail as possible it can have the opposite effect and make it difficult to sift through and find the points.  Providing intense details in order to make sure the reader understands every facet of the problem is often an OCD trait/compulsion in itself

(I have opened a thread for you with your own post that details your problem)

[Cora]

1 hour ago, Caramoole said:

You must do something to change your reaction and response.  Are you up for that?  Are you going to come up with a plan for how you can change that reaction when one of these doubts or incidents crops up?

I have no other choice, do I? 

So what do I do then? I mean, I know I have to accept and treat it as OCD but that's too general. I need a plan and I think I need help with that because I'm too confused at this point to do it on my own.