Are you always aware of your checking compulsions?

[Cora]

1 hour ago, malina said:

Ok but do you see that you have gone from describing your brother as a budding psychopath with brain damage to coming up with a perfectly reasonable explanation for his behaviour? So do you see how your OCD glasses are distorting your view of reality - they are making you think that your brother is brain damaged, that he is going to hurt someone someday....when you take the glasses off you see that he's likely acting out because he wants some attention.

This makes a lot of sense, malina. Thank you. 

I'm going to try and see this without the OCD glasses. It seems incredibly difficult to do so, especially because of the self blame, as you said, but I'll try. 

[Caramoole]

3 hours ago, Cora said:

She did contact my GP and refer me to an OCD specialist in Sheffield for further help. But I don't see how that's going to help me.

A lot of that depends on a decision to help yourself.  Like all sufferers you are going to have to take a leap of faith and do the work/homework that is recommended.  No therapy will work until you start to do this, attending sessions and listening/off-loading isn't enough

[Cora]

4 minutes ago, Cora said:

This makes a lot of sense, malina. Thank you. 

I'm going to try and see this without the OCD glasses. It seems incredibly difficult to do so, especially because of the self blame, as you said, but I'll try. 

@malina, I also hope that you and @Caramooledon't see me as a monster. I've been thinking about this all day and it's so tormenting. I know what I did was awful and wrong, and if I ever have a child (I most definitely won't thanks to this lovely experience with OCD and my brother), I'm going to make sure I never repeat this mistake. 

[malina]

48 minutes ago, Cora said:

@malina, I also hope that you and @Caramooledon't see me as a monster. I've been thinking about this all day and it's so tormenting. I know what I did was awful and wrong, and if I ever have a child (I most definitely won't thanks to this lovely experience with OCD and my brother), I'm going to make sure I never repeat this mistake. 

You are still very much missing the point. Telling us that you won't repeat this mistake with your own child isn't the way to overcome OCD.

Your mind is distorting to many things and you need to accept that the way you see things is twisted by OCD, you then need to learn to stop behaving in accordance with the reality that OCD has created and act in accordance with a more objective reality. It's hard to see that reality through the lens of OCD, but you you have learned from us (and presumably your therapist) about how to interpret things and how to deal with things, so that is a starting point.

As long as you are saying "I will not make this mistake again", you are promoting a mindset where you are hypervigilant of your behaviours. That just means that you will think about any bad incident even more and every time you make a mistake, you will have this exaggerated reaction and torture yourself.

You will make many, many mistakes in life. Some will even have serious consequences. You have to learn to deal with them in a rational way. And when something is over and done with, when you can't do anything else, you have to let go.

[PolarBear]

6 hours ago, Cora said:

But I don't see how that's going to help me. 

It's not, unless you help yourself.

[snowbear]

3 hours ago, malina said:

As long as you are saying "I will not make this mistake again", you are promoting a mindset where you are hypervigilant of your behaviours. That just means that you will think about any bad incident even more and every time you make a mistake, you will have this exaggerated reaction and torture yourself.

This is important, Cora. Read it again, and again, until it sinks in.

 

3 hours ago, malina said:

You will make many, many mistakes in life. Some will even have serious consequences. You have to learn to deal with them in a rational way. And when something is over and done with, when you can't do anything else, you have to let go.

Another very important point. Being a good person isn't about never making any mistakes. If your goal is to never do anything wrong you will not live a good life. You'll waste life trying to avoid mistakes instead of doing good things. A subtle difference, but an important one. You've been stuck in the mindset of avoiding mistakes/ harm for a very long time now and you need to change that.

Mistakes aren't a bad thing. They are a normal, vital part of growing up. It's by making mistakes and dealing with them rationally that we learn and become better people.

Entrepreneurs and people who are happy in life will tell you mistakes are something to welcome into your life so you can grow from them. They are not something to fear.

[Cora]

I'm so very sorry to disappoint everyone because I'm back with stupid questions and confessions.

I was having very disgusting sexual thoughts this morning while I was still in bed (watching random, cute, short videos of pets on social media) and of course I had very strong groinal responses as well (maybe even an arousal). It's hard and weird to explain but because of the way I had my legs positioned, the groinal responses felt pleasurable. And I just didn't want to move my legs into a different position so the groinal responses didn't feel pleasurable. I just didn't want that feeling to stop. And that lasted for 2 or 3 minutes. Why is this happening?!

And when I did move my legs in a different position and put my phone down, the groinal response was still there. But it didn't stop there. I once again put my legs together but this time I pressed my thighs together (I'm sorry, I know how weird this sounds). I did that for two reasons: to test myself and because I liked the fact that if felt enjoyable. So I ended up masturbating, if that's what it was, to the groinal response caused by thoughts about pets. I wanted to do it. I was fully aware of that. 

I know what I did was bad. And I'm not looking for reassurance. I'm just very upset and dissapointed because this happened before and I thought I had moved on and learned from my mistakes. 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Cora

[snowbear]

1 hour ago, Cora said:

I'm back with stupid questions and confessions.

Why?

What is making it so difficult for you to stop doing compulsions?

Can you identify what it is that keeps you doing this over and over in spite of what you've learned?

Maybe if you put it into words you'll be better able to resist the compulsions.

[Cora]

23 minutes ago, snowbear said:

Why?

What is making it so difficult for you to stop doing compulsions?

Can you identify what it is that keeps you doing this over and over in spite of what you've learned?

Maybe if you put it into words you'll be better able to resist the compulsions.

I'm not completely sure. I think it's because of the feelings of shame and guilt, mainly. I'm definitely not able to identify whether something I do is a major thing or a minor thing. I can never tell if I'm allowed to move on without confessing. I feel like not confessing is the same as committing a crime and trying to run and hide from it. 

[Saffron37]

Cora, forgive me if I've asked this question in the past, but are you taking any medication for OCD? Have you ever taken medication before?

Also, do you have an appointment yet with the OCD specialist that your psychiatrist referred you to?

[Cora]

1 hour ago, Saffron37 said:

Cora, forgive me if I've asked this question in the past, but are you taking any medication for OCD? Have you ever taken medication before?

Hi @Saffron37, 

Yes, I'm taking sertraline 200 mg. I also have an appointment with my GP regarding some other medication, too. I think I need something to help me with my mood, which is not the greatest. 

1 hour ago, Saffron37 said:

Also, do you have an appointment yet with the OCD specialist that your psychiatrist referred you to?

Not yet, I've not heard anything from anyone. But it's okay for now - I'm taking a break because I'm struggling with money at the moment. 

[malina]

2 hours ago, Cora said:

I'm not completely sure. I think it's because of the feelings of shame and guilt, mainly. I'm definitely not able to identify whether something I do is a major thing or a minor thing. I can never tell if I'm allowed to move on without confessing. I feel like not confessing is the same as committing a crime and trying to run and hide from it. 

I think the problem is that you are treating this forum and I think your therapist as a means to confess and get signs as to what you're allowed to let go of. Even if your therapist didn't give you direct reassurance, by telling you to move on, not calling social services, not being disgusted by you....she showed you that your behaviours weren't actually bad and that you were allowed to move on. Same here, when we tell you that you need to let go and move on, that is reassurance in itself.

Another thing I have noticed is that you get quite a lot of brilliant advice, then you disappear for a few days and come back with a new confession, with no ackgnowledgement of the advice you have been given (except perhaps a thank you). I'm not saying this because I am telling you to appreciate the advice you're given more than you do (I'm sure you appreciate it a lot), but you often don't fully engage with it.

I think your reaction is maybe 25% taking on board things that are suggested and 75% thinking "phew nobody has called me a monster yet, even after this last terrible confession, I can get on with my life for a bit now". Am I wrong?

[snowbear]

2 hours ago, Cora said:

I'm not completely sure. I think it's because of the feelings of shame and guilt, mainly. I'm definitely not able to identify whether something I do is a major thing or a minor thing. I can never tell if I'm allowed to move on without confessing. I feel like not confessing is the same as committing a crime and trying to run and hide from it. 

You need to address the meaning you give to not doing compulsions with your therapist.

If you're telling yourself that not confessing means you're a bad person (or whatever) then you're always going to struggle to stop them.

Make this the topic for your next therapy session, to look at the meaning you put on stopping compulsions.

The meaning you give to confessing (perhaps being forgiven, being accepted, reassurance you've done no wrong, reassurance you're a good person...) is something you can change. Once you see it doesn't mean what you thought it meant it gives you permission to challenge your compulsions with a clear conscience.

Another area to discuss with your therapist is what you can do to improve your self-esteem, so you feel more confident in your own judgement and less reliant on other people's opinions.

What you've been doing and the approach your therapist has used up to now isn't working, so try these alternative approaches and see if it helps you make progress.

[Caramoole]

@snowbearI believe that Cora's therapist has terminated the therapy as she doesn't feel that Cora is engaging with it. She's been referred back to the GP with a recommendadtion that she's referred to an OCD specialist.  I believe that this has happened with previous therapists.

And that's where we have a bit of a problem if Cora won't engage with the suggestions or advice.

[snowbear]

4 minutes ago, Caramoole said:

we have a bit of a problem if Cora won't engage with the suggestions or advice.

Such a shame therapy has been cancelled, though understandable when someone hasn't been engaging.

The question I'm asking, is why is engaging so difficult for you  @Cora?

It's never something to be blamed for, or something you lack as a person. There'll be a straightforward reason. What we need to do is help you identify the reason you struggling, and show you the way to fix that so you can engage with advice.

I have a theory that it's because of the meaning you give to doing your compulsions (or not doing them.)  

What do you tell yourself it means if you don't do a compulsion?

What do you believe it is saying about you?

For example, 'If I don't confess then it means I'm a bad person.'

'If I don't test myself then it means I enjoyed the thoughts'

'I need to ask for reassurance because...'

 

Believing these meanings is a problem, because they aren't true.

You won't be (or become) a bad person by not doing compulsions. Not doing compulsions to prove you didn't enjoy the thoughts doesn't mean you 'must have' enjoyed them.

You need to identify these beliefs (the meanings you put on doing compulsions) and challenge them.

 

[Cora]

3 hours ago, malina said:

I think your reaction is maybe 25% taking on board things that are suggested and 75% thinking "phew nobody has called me a monster yet, even after this last terrible confession, I can get on with my life for a bit now". Am I wrong?

Unfortunately, I don't think you're wrong, @malina. 

1 hour ago, snowbear said:

The question I'm asking, is why is engaging so difficult for you  @Cora?

I'm not entirely sure. But it could be the fact that I have no respect towards myself. I can honestly say that I dislike myself very much and only see myself as a trouble maker, as a person who's unoworthy of anything good - hence why I need constant reassurance.

It could also be that I'm not allowing myself to move on from all the mistakes I make - the reason for which I simply don't have. For the past 3 years, I've lived in memories of past mistakes. One after another. I promise, I'm not exaggerating. I've had no day off from ruminating and revisiting those memories. 

And, finally, maybe because I keep doing stupid things like the one I did today, and because deep down I feel like people with OCD wouldn't do what I do. For example, today I did what I did mostly because the groinal response/arousal felt enjoyable. I mean, I also did it for testing but that was only like 10%, which is nothing in the OCD world. Whenever I do disgusting things like this, I feel like a criminal and I just have to confess my crime, otherwise my life's a lie. 

I'm really sorry. I truly am. I know apologies won't do anything but I'm just so ashamed and disgusted of myself and I have nothing else to do than apologise. 

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Cora

[snowbear]

3 minutes ago, Cora said:

it could be the fact that I have no respect towards myself. I see myself as a person who's unworthy of anything good - hence why I need constant reassurance.

I agree, you have low self-esteem and low self-confidence, hence why you feel you need constant reassurance. 

Trouble is, the more you seek reassurance the more you reinforce your belief you can't trust your own judgement. There's no other way to learn that you can trust yourself other than to

trust that you've probably got it right

and

accept it's ok to take the (small) risk that you might have got it wrong.

It really doesn't take long to build self-confidence and it's not something to fear or something you can get wrong. Once you've jumped off the diving board the first time you have a better idea what to expect, and the next time feels less scary. After a few leaps you develop confidence in yourself quite quickly and trusting yourself gets easier and easier.

Building self-esteem is similar. You need to take small risks (that people might think badly of you, that you might be a nice person, that you are worthy of good things!) and in taking those risks you experience small successes which gradually make you like yourself more.

If you keep telling yourself 'I'm unworthy' and 'I can't trust myself' then you'll stay stuck. It's called building self-esteem and building self-confidence because you have to do it brick by brick - take small risk after small risk, experience lots of small successes as a result.

And, of course, not give up and fall back on saying 'See, I don't deserve good things' should something not work out as you hoped!

22 minutes ago, Cora said:

It could also be that I'm not allowing myself to move on from all the mistakes I make - the reason for which I simply don't have. 

I've had no day off from ruminating and revisiting those memories. 

You just stated the reason right there!

You won't allow yourself to move on because you ruminate on them every day. And every time you revisit the memory you tell yourself the same lies 'I'm unworthy, I'm a trouble maker'. So every day you reinforce the belief you don't deserve to let it go and move on.

Time to change the things you say to yourself!

Making mistakes isn't a bad thing. It's normal. We're meant to make mistakes in life. It's how we learn. Nobody has ever got through life without making thousands of mistakes.

Learn to be grateful for any mistakes you've made. Look at them as an opportunity to learn, to grow as a person. Focus on what an exceptionally wonderful person you're becoming as a result of making so many mistakes instead of beating yourself up over them.

30 minutes ago, Cora said:

maybe because I keep doing stupid things like the one I did today, and because deep down I feel like people with OCD wouldn't do what I do.

For example, today I did what I did mostly because the groinal response/arousal felt enjoyable. I mean, I also did it for testing but that was only like 10%, which is nothing in the OCD world.

Whenever I do disgusting things like this, I feel like a criminal and I just have to confess my crime, otherwise my life's a lie. 

Let's separate out and review the meanings you give things that are hidden in there.

'I keep doing stupid things' = reinforcing the lie that you're a bad person/ stupid person/ unworthy

'Deep down I feel people with OCD wouldn't do what I do' = refusal to label your experiences as OCD because 'only nice people have OCD, bad people like me must want to do it.' (Wrong! OCD isn't a guarantee of niceness, nor is it an excuse that 'let's you off the hook'.)

'today I did what I did mostly because the groinal response/arousal felt enjoyable' = and because I'm an unworthy person if I enjoy it that must mean I'm also a bad person.' (Wrong and wrong again!)

I was only partly testing = Anything less than 100% OCD must mean I'm a bad person. (Wrong)

'Whenever I do disgusting things like this' = passing judgement on yourself because you think other people will give it the same meaning you do.  Wrong! 

Other people will have a range of views, including , 'So what that you enjoyed it and wanted the nice arousal feeling to continue? It's normal to want nice feelings to persist.' 

They don't give it the additional meaning you give it, 'Whatever I was thinking about when I got aroused must be what I like sexually'. So they don't see the disgust you think 'ought' to be there. They don't pass judgement on you the way you pass judgement on yourself, you just assume 'They 'must' be thinking what I'm thinking because they 'must' give it the same meaning I do.' (Wrong and wrong.)

 

Do you see the pattern?

How you give things meanings that aren't there. Then you assume that's the only possible meaning there is.

How the meanings you choose to give things are based on your dislike of yourself and your low self-esteem.

How you got the meanings wrong, but couldn't see it was wrong.

So that's why you have to start to challenge the meanings hidden in things you think and do. The meanings you assume are automatic and indisputable aren't as certain as you thought after all.

From here on, I want to you start to challenge the meaning you give things.

Why do I think that?' Is that the only way to look at it? Would I still think that if I was a confident person? Would I give it the same meaning if I liked myself / if I felt I deserved to have good things happen to me?

Give it a go.

Perhaps you could come back and share with us some of the hidden meanings you find yourself putting on things. And brainstorm some ideas for alternative meanings you'd give them as a person who likes herself / is worthy.

Do it as an exercise to show yourself how different things can look once you've built up some self-confidence.

[malina]

Cora,

there is just one thing I'd like to add - you treat these incidents like today as "mistakes" and I think this is part of the problem, because you give the incidents meaning, significance and as if they reflect something about you.

Have you ever tried theory A/theory B with your therapist? I think it might help you if you try to view things from your OCD perspective and then from a more rational perspective.

We could try with today's incident

Theory A would suggest - I enjoyed the groinal response that I got in response to seeing cute animals, I got sexual gratification from this groinal response, people with OCD don't enjoy their intrusive thoughts so that must mean I don't have OCD.

Am I on the right track here in theory A with regards to how you're thinking? Can you try to come up with an alternative Theory B?

[Cora]

21 hours ago, snowbear said:

Do it as an exercise to show yourself how different things can look once you've built up some self-confidence.

Thank you so very much, @snowbear, for your help and the amazing advice! I promise I will do this. Thank you! 

[Cora]

21 hours ago, malina said:

Theory A would suggest - I enjoyed the groinal response that I got in response to seeing cute animals, I got sexual gratification from this groinal response, people with OCD don't enjoy their intrusive thoughts so that must mean I don't have OCD.

Am I on the right track here in theory A with regards to how you're thinking? Can you try to come up with an alternative Theory B?

Hi @malina, 

Yes, you are absolutely right about Theory A. 

This is my Theory B - I'm not sure how accurate it is or if it makes much sense because it's quite tricky what happened but here goes: 

I did get sexual gratification from the groinal response caused by seeing cute animals. However, that doesn't have to mean anything. It was just a feeling in my body and even though it seemed like I enjoyed it, I should move on. At the end of the day, it was just a feeling and there is no right or wrong when it comes to that. Also, I could have handled the situation differently but feeling guilty and hating myself right now for not doing it is of no help to me. But I definitely should try better next time. 

Again, I'm not sure I got right so please let me know what you think. Thank you. 

[malina]

41 minutes ago, Cora said:

Hi @malina, 

Yes, you are absolutely right about Theory A. 

This is my Theory B - I'm not sure how accurate it is or if it makes much sense because it's quite tricky what happened but here goes: 

I did get sexual gratification from the groinal response caused by seeing cute animals. However, that doesn't have to mean anything. It was just a feeling in my body and even though it seemed like I enjoyed it, I should move on. At the end of the day, it was just a feeling and there is no right or wrong when it comes to that. Also, I could have handled the situation differently but feeling guilty and hating myself right now for not doing it is of no help to me. But I definitely should try better next time.

Not a bad start but I still see a lot of self blaming in theory B.

How about this?

Sometimes I have groinal responses to things I find inappropriate, like pictures of cute animals. I find these very overwhelming and don't really know how to handle them yet. I'm confused and I am trying to experiment with different ways of dealing with these feelings. Sometimes that means that I do things that I feel ashamed about afterwards. The shame is the meaning that I attach to what I have done, when in reality I was just trying to figure out how respond to the overwhelming signals that my body is giving me. I don't like how I reacted today, there may be other days where I don't feel proud of my reaction, but I need to learn to stop attaching meaning to how I react and do my best to move on.

What about that?

[Cora]

6 minutes ago, malina said:

Not a bad start but I still see a lot of self blaming in theory B.

How about this?

Sometimes I have groinal responses to things I find inappropriate, like pictures of cute animals. I find these very overwhelming and don't really know how to handle them yet. I'm confused and I am trying to experiment with different ways of dealing with these feelings. Sometimes that means that I do things that I feel ashamed about afterwards. The shame is the meaning that I attach to what I have done, when in reality I was just trying to figure out how respond to the overwhelming signals that my body is giving me. I don't like how I reacted today, there may be other days where I don't feel proud of my reaction, but I need to learn to stop attaching meaning to how I react and do my best to move on.

What about that?

@malina, thank you so much! 

This makes much more sense. I like your version of theory B and it's definitely going to help me. You're right, my version had some self blaming and it didn't feel right while I was thinking and typing it. 

Once again, thank you very much x

[malina]

9 minutes ago, Cora said:

@malina, thank you so much! 

This makes much more sense. I like your version of theory B and it's definitely going to help me. You're right, my version had some self blaming and it didn't feel right while I was thinking and typing it. 

Once again, thank you very much x

No worries, I'm glad it helped!

Just to say, this disorder is incredibly confusing, how could it not be? It's as if your body has developed a mind of its own, and your mind has also developed a mind of its own too. There you are minding your own business when you're suddenly hit with sexual feelings towards the randomest things. And no matter how much you know it's all OCD, they are always overwhelming and feel real. It's not something anyone can prepare you for, it's not what your parents teach you about or what friends talk about. There isn't a way to know how to behave and we all end up trying all sorts of ways to handle what is happening. I'm sorry to say it but there are going to be many days ahead where you do things you don't like, but go back to this example. None of these are mistakes, none of them actually have any meaning beyond the fact that you are confused AF and trying to figure it all out. So next time, try out theory A/B (I just learned about this myself, I like it!), try to not immediately jump to blaming yourself and try to view things a little more rationally.

[Cora]

1 hour ago, malina said:

No worries, I'm glad it helped!

Just to say, this disorder is incredibly confusing, how could it not be? It's as if your body has developed a mind of its own, and your mind has also developed a mind of its own too. There you are minding your own business when you're suddenly hit with sexual feelings towards the randomest things. And no matter how much you know it's all OCD, they are always overwhelming and feel real. It's not something anyone can prepare you for, it's not what your parents teach you about or what friends talk about. There isn't a way to know how to behave and we all end up trying all sorts of ways to handle what is happening. I'm sorry to say it but there are going to be many days ahead where you do things you don't like, but go back to this example. None of these are mistakes, none of them actually have any meaning beyond the fact that you are confused AF and trying to figure it all out. So next time, try out theory A/B (I just learned about this myself, I like it!), try to not immediately jump to blaming yourself and try to view things a little more rationally.

Thank you, @malina!

[Cora]

Hi @malina, 

Firstly, I want to apologise because this might sound like I'm trying to be rude or ungrateful but I promise I'm not. 

I noticed this thought lingering around last night but I figured it was just my brain trying to give me something else to worry about since that's almost like a full time job for me. This morning it was still there, but once again I tried to ignore it and carry on with my day. Half way through my jobs around the house, I gave in, sat down and realised maybe my brain is right. This thought is that maybe by using theory B (or any other theory similar to it) I'm excusing my behaviour hence hiding from the real me, which of course is a terrible person. And now I'm left confused. Is this an intrusive thought? Or is something I have to worry about. I'm trying to use yours and snowbear's advice, trying to see it all from a different perspective and I want to say that it is an intrusive thought and just another way of my brain to make me feel guilty. But of course, when I say that to myself I feel like I'm lying. 

I want to treat it as another intrusive thought but I'm not confident that it's the right choice. 

Once again, I apologise if this sounds rude and inappropriate but that's definetely not my goal with this post.