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How to change your mind


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There’s a very good series on Netflix called How To Change Your Mind.

It looks at the history of psychedelic drugs and the current research into their treatment for a variety of mental health conditions including OCD.

I’m finding it pretty fascinating and even considering signing up for research with DMT.

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Are you still looking for a 'magic bullet'?

Obviously 'psychedelic drugs' are powerful. And they've been doing quite a bit of research into the benefits of drugs like MDMA, Ketamine, even psilocybin on issues like depression and other disorders.

DMT is also used as a party drug. Some like psilocybin and cannabis have been used to treat mental disorders for centuries.

Still don't believe it will help with the psychological aspects of OCD though.

I'll check out that programme. At least you'd be under medical supervision if you signed up for research.

 

 

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Am I still looking for a magic bullet? Of course! Honestly if I thought I could sign up for one treatment and it would take all this **** away, then I’d jump at it.

one guy in the documentary took part in a trial with psilocybin. He’d had OCD since he was 6. One treatment and was symptom free 9 months later.

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Actually I haven't got Netflix(I was hoping someone uploaded it already). But I did just watch a lecture by the author of the book. He has some interesting ideas.

I suppose if you can't get on trial then you could do it the way he did, with a guide.

They say you should be in a stable state of mind and obviously don't over do it. Also there are antidotes(not right word but you know what I mean).

I've tried a few things and always had a good, sometimes profound experience.

The Americans really embraced psychoanalysis, but also are willing to look at many radical ideas. Not just for OCD, but like he says helping cancer patients with their dread of death.

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5 hours ago, OB1UK said:

It looks at the history of psychedelic drugs and the current research into their treatment for a variety of mental health conditions including OCD.

Anyone who's been on the forums a while will know I like to keep up with the science and the research on OCD and other mental health issues. so I'm jumping in with my twopence worth. :)

This is genuine research and early results are promising. The science behind it is sound, though how it is executed in practice (as we know from CBT therapy) is as important as the science showing it works. So I feel this thread needs to come with a warning.

In case anybody reads this and thinks of trying psychedelic drugs for their OCD as some kind of self-help  - DONT!

The researched treatment is not only supervised throughout, but requires the correct kind of (didactic) intervention while under the influence of the drugs . This is NOT something we could ever do for ourselves.

There's also a question mark over not everybody may be suitable/ respond positively to this kind of 'brain reprograming' and another question mark over who the therapist in charge should be as it will require specialist training to teach the person supervising how to prompt the brain in the right way to 'reprogram' it.

So - interesting research yes. :yes:

A magic bullet :unsure:  Not for everyone. Beware of playing Russian roulette and getting the one chamber with a bullet in it!

A DIY or self-help method - DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT. :no:

But as a scientific therapy that might be useful for some people in the future? Watch this space. :)

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Hi OB1UK,

I watched this series and it made me want to try psilocybin but in a randomised controlled study (and with a Psychiatrist alongside to guide me) rather than just downing some magic mushrooms! It was interesting that the OCD sufferer who recovered had found SSRIs were only able to dull down the anxiety whereas psilocybin seemed to expand his awareness and allow him to experience 'more' rather than less and possibly to see break out of the restrictive and ruminative thinking of OCD.

All that said, as Snowbear mentions some unlucky people do end up with chronic psychosis after taking psilocybin so that would definitely cause me concern. 

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For those looking for that magic pill.....

I tried 3 SSRIs, desperate for them to free me of constant repetitive looping thoughts my OCD caused  in horrendous episodes. 

Did this work? No.

Eventually I found the answer and no medication was involved.

A combination of leaving the thoughts be from CBT   putting together with my therapist a powerful structured programme of involved beneficial activity, creative visualisation and mindfulness did the trick - broke the cycle of distress.

And this is why I consider each one of us, however similar our OCD may be, may need their own especial combination of psychological tools to overcome their particular manifestations. And, of course, the sufferer may also have additional psychological  (co-morbid) issues that must also be addressed properly  such as attention deficit disorder (like a young friend of mine) and autism. These must also be addressed as they will likely affect ability to challenge the OCD.

I know that drugs can have a beneficial affect for some, but I personally think the medication option is indiscriminately given to those who could do better without.

There are additional considerations such as depression  and I tend to follow the view of those who see medication such as SSRIs as " water wings " that might help a patient to keep their head above water, whilst they engage with therapy.

 

 

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Thanks. I agree with all the comments. I would never suggest anyone do anything out of a clinical setting. To be honest I’ve always been very wary of drugs in general, unsurprisingly being a bit of a control freak.

I definitely agree with the comment about ssri’s being like water wings but they do slightly muffle your existence.

my concern about the research is that, even if it was really successful, who’s going to push these treatments. There’s no interest from big pharma to have people being cured by 1-2 treatments.

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The problem is people are programmed by propaganda. Personally having a good knowledge of organic chemistry and having researched even some of the basic medicines on the market, I try to use them as little as possible. (do some research into a standard painkiller like Ibruprophen and you'll see that it can have a detrimental effect on major organs).

So while this site has to put out the standard disclaimer, and the standard NHS advice. It doesn't hurt to look arond and hypothosise about other treatments. Meditation is a concept from Eastern religious practices for example.

The reality is millions of people take recreational drugs but as Michael Pollan says the moralists and media always highlight the one bad experience. It put him off trying the treatment until he was sixty, as he says he was scared by the media stories.

I believe that certain drugs can show you a different reality(so for example the dying cancer patients who were scared of death, they expanded their minds, took their focus of what is called Ego and realised that all life is interconnected), or take you back to how you thought as a child before you were programmed with cliches and concepts.

So the challenge then is recreate that perspective. It's like you know what it looks like and aim to attain it.

 

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39 minutes ago, howard said:

The reality is millions of people take recreational drugs but as Michael Pollan says the moralists and media always highlight the one bad experience.

The reality is not 'one bad experience'.  It is many bad experiences.  Speak to people who work in mental health and see how frustrated they are at having to regularly deal with the results or recreational drug use.

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11 minutes ago, northpaul said:

The reality is not 'one bad experience'.  It is many bad experiences.  Speak to people who work in mental health and see how frustrated they are at having to regularly deal with the results or recreational drug use.

You didn't know what CBD was, yet you sought to moralise.

 

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OB1UK was talking about these experimental treatments that work for some people and asking who would promote them.

The NHS is not a definitive source of information. It is a valuable source but the NHS also has it's problems and limitations.

So lets skip how much it pays out in compensation every year, let's skip that it is conservative in it's approach, but it's also tied to the big pharmeceutical companies(£20Bn a year).

These big companies have a lot of power, they use numerous techniques to ensure their products are used(have you ever read the list of side effects on even basic pain killers.

They prescribe me 600mg Ibruprofen for IBS, but after researching those side effects fully, I switched to CBD, which works for me).

We were talking about climate change anxiety. Big companies again with a lot of power that use propaganda and lobbying.

In 1920 the used ethanol to stop engines knocking, just like they have since  2000.

But between those dates they used lead, now that caused mental health problems. (from 'The Man Who Accidentally Killed The Most People In History' on YT)

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What's sad is that any potential conversation and therefore exploration of the benefits of 'controlled substances' often turns into an argument about them instead like what's happening here.  Which is understandable because this type of debate tends to be an emotive one that is often used a political wedge issue (which I am sure I posted in the last thread about CBD 🤣) and whenever it arises the same people will very often show up to give the same opinions they gave last time inside an environment that has to be very careful with the advice it gives people around a topic that carries criminal liability and can have very serious and very real mental health outcomes for some people.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this point btw I'm riddled with flu/possible covid atm and have had a bit of relapse this week that's involved rubbing my lymph nodes and staring at my scars incase they magically turn into cancer because I'm obviously very stressed about something and have a lot of interpersonal issues and also a history of substance use which I have found to be both beneficial and detrimental at different points in my life and sometimes both at the same time and I think largely what I'm saying is

It's a shame to see what could be an educational conversation that might help people make informed decisions about the subject turn into an argument because it's so easy to fall into the same pattern of taking one position or another based on the emotiveness of the topic instead of actually listening and hearing one another.

Edited by ocdjonesy
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I think there have always been people with mental health problems at at different times in history and there have been a standard ways of helping people.

But the standard way doesn't always help everyone. That could be for a number of reasons.

So while the first site that most people will go to is an NHS one(in the UK), it is within people's rights to look at peripheral treatments. It doesn't mean they are going to use those treatments, it just means they are interested in other fields of enquiry and are willing to be open minded.

So I could say that NHS info is the official conservative stance(say on CBD), and I could contrast that with testimonials from those who have actually tried it and benefited(ie:real people's experience and opinions).

Some peripheral treatments become mainstrem, some fade after being fully tested and rejected by those who tried them. I've seen references to a number of radical approaches.

I think what caused the most mental problems in the UK was the wars. I think those wars caused servere mental problems for a whole variety of reasons in the generations that fought in them, but that was also passed on to the next generations.

Lead in petrol also had a major impact on the people who were exposed to it. It was purely done for profit even though the inventor of the process knew the risks of lead poisoning and was involved in deceitful propaganda.  He probably didn't realise how CFC's would react with the ozone layer, but again they choose the option that would maximise profits.

But I also think there are a number of things happening in the world that are raising people's anxiety levels and with people who have OCD that causes more symptoms.

But if people read the Daily Snail, they hear the one story where an adolescent went on holday for the first time and the worst thing happened, neglecting that millions of adolescents that went away that year were perfectly fine.

Same with the Covid vaccine, they highlighted a few people who had problems, but had to cease as their propaganda could affect take up. Newspaper like to stir up fear and panic, it sells copy.

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I am watching a vid with Michael Pollan talking about humans and their relationships with different drugs. Just how coffee/tea affects us and the type of society we live in.

He's very honest about how the 'psychedelics industry' is being hyped based on a few selective trials. He sees it as another Silicon valley bubble.

He says if it's not controlled, that people will 'get hurt'. And that it doesn't work for everyone.

He says they don't know why, but he thinks the reason they are having such success in curing; depression, OCD, anxiety, addiction.

'Mental orders that involve a rigidity of thought, people stuck in loops of rumination, inflexible thinking, need drug to get through day(addiction), that they are bad people and nothing is working out in their life, they have anxiety and replay loops about what makes them anxious'. 

So the mind is reset to a pre-rigid state allowing new neural pathways to form.

He is an interesting writer, because he approaches subjects, does a lot of research and actually lives the subject. 

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You’re right Howard. It’s easy to read stories about radical treatment and of people who have had a great result and assume it’s going to be the same for everyone. I’ve had conventional treatment now for over 10 years and sometimes it’s ok and other times like now, it’s really not. So there’s always this hope that there might be something else, something more.

curious about you comments about coffee and tea. Do you mean the effects of caffeine?

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5 hours ago, OB1UK said:

You’re right Howard. It’s easy to read stories about radical treatment and of people who have had a great result and assume it’s going to be the same for everyone. I’ve had conventional treatment now for over 10 years and sometimes it’s ok and other times like now, it’s really not. So there’s always this hope that there might be something else, something more.

curious about you comments about coffee and tea. Do you mean the effects of caffeine?

Michael Pollan was just talking about how different natural drugs have been used for centuries. He talked about the effects of coffee(and tea) on people and how stimulated minds changed society. He was talking about coffee houses of London. He also stopped drinking coffee to see how that affected him. He couldn't write.

I mean alcohol has had a major effect on people, and as is well known Brits drank beer because it was safer than drinking water at one time. But coffee and tea made water even safer because the water was boiled. He also talks about the social and political affects of different drugs.

I have researched much of the history of natural drug usage. Read scientific literature and studies, plus a range of novels. Natural drugs have changed the way humans think and act and the altered perception has led to much cultural creativity. 

I suppose if people have tried all conventional treatments and just don't feel like they are making any progress then they may try some more radical ideas. I know a few people have been using Ayahuasca. Again another natural drug used for centuries by tribal people. He also discusses the benefits of breathing techniques on reducing anxiety.

TBH I'm sceptical of big pharmeceutical companies and their manufactured drugs.

I think what Michael Pollan was saying about rigid mind structures is interesting. Usually that's associated with strong habitual thinking and often older people get stuck running through those same neural pathways repeatedly. But why OCD people should have those fixed neural pathways and rigid thinking, is the question.

Again he gives ideas; challenge your mind to think in new ways, break habits, travel abroad or learn a new skill or subject.

MP says after his experiences of expanded consciousness and connectedness to nature, it has led him to his next topic, the nature of consciousness itself.

(from 'Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind | E158' on YT).

 

 

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25 minutes ago, howard said:

Michael Pollan

I have spent some time today researching who this man is.  He is a journalist and writer in America.   He sounds to be well qualified in those subjects - BA in English and Professor of Journalism.  However I did not find any evidence of any medical clinical or even psychological  qualifications.

Whereas what he writes about may be of general interest, I would be very cautious about it on this site which is essentially a mental health (OCD) forum.

On 26/07/2022 at 21:19, snowbear said:

So I feel this thread needs to come with a warning.

I agree.

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I think the big concepts that we don't understand like Time or Mind is what is being explored. They are actually carrying out scientific studies to verify the trials at a major hospital.

One way they have tried to understand the concept of Mind and how it works is by using AI, which is something I have problems with, but it can give insights. AI changes the way humans think, they learn from each other.

So the trials if they are confirmed give us an understanding of how those disorders are down to a  rigidity of thought. So I think suggesting; learn something new, open your mind to new ideas, travel, learn a skill, etc are no longer just distractions, but a major way of challenging that neural rigidity. Understanding OCD at that neural level would I think help with future treatments.

Our minds are incredible,  it's amazing what we've discovered already from the cosmos to atoms, psychology, sociology, etc, etc.                       

It might be another field like neuroscience that helps us understand why some disorders of the mind are and are they occuring because it's lost it's neural plastisity.

But in reality data from many fields is being interpreted so that humans understand who we are and why we think the way we do.

 

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3 hours ago, howard said:

So the trials if they are confirmed give us an understanding of how those disorders are down to a  rigidity of thought. So I think suggesting; learn something new, open your mind to new ideas, travel, learn a skill, etc are no longer just distractions, but a major way of challenging that neural rigidity.

100% agree with this. :yes:   In fact, worded one way or another, it's exactly what I've posted many, many times on this forum ! 

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55 minutes ago, snowbear said:

100% agree with this. :yes:   In fact, worded one way or another, it's exactly what I've posted many, many times on this forum ! 

I thought that quote would resonate with many posters,  'Mental orders that involve a rigidity of thought, people stuck in loops of rumination, inflexible thinking, need drug to get through day(addiction), that they are bad people and nothing is working out in their life, they have anxiety and replay loops about what makes them anxious'.

So it would seem the more we ruminate and play through those loops the more rigid and fixed the mental processes become.(I'm still trying to make sense of how the reaction to what was a relatively mild event takes hold).

@northpaul Michael Pollan is an investigative journalist, he is objective. I find them to be a good source of insights whether it's Seymour Hersh or Carole Cadwalladr. But also studies carried out.

The Center for the Neuroscience of Psychedlics are carrying out some research at Massachusetts General Hospital.

 

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22 minutes ago, howard said:

Seymour Hersh or Carole Cadwalladr.

Both journalists but why are you mentioning them in relation to debate about mental health matters?  What do they know about mental health?

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