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I can't let this one go...


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Hi everyone, 

I'm right now in a horrible spot and feel very depressed. As you may know, my obsession was about touching people inappropriately and thus, I tried to avoid situations where I was too close to others, because of intrusive urges to touch them inappropriately. I successfully tackled it through therapy and have overcome my obsession. But there was one incident, where it felt like as I've acted on the intrusive urges. Like, genuinely acted on it on purpose. I've already told the story, when I tried to help others overcoming themes similar to mine, by showing them, that they are not alone in this. But sometimes it just hits me. My problem is that even though people told me that it is OCD, I still and always had a hard time classifying it that way. I more or less tried to shrug it off as something meaningless, but sometimes, like right now, I fail to do so. Because I'm not sure, if it is really OCD. Like, I do have OCD about OCD regarding this. There is another incident, very similar to this one, I already posted about on this forum, but this one is something different to me, I never really talked openly about, because of the shame and guilt I feel associated with it. 

So what did exactly happen? 

Our then two years old daughter had a special chair for toddlers, so that she could easily climb it, whenever she wanted to sit on it. It was a one very similar to this. One day, my wife wanted me to move the chair to the dining table, so that our daughter could eat her meal my wife prepared for her. And when I wanted to move the chair to the table, my daughter immediately climbed it. And therefore, I had to move the chair with her sitting on it. At this moment I realized, that I would need to touch my daughter's crotch with my grip, as the chair's seat was pretty small and as this was the only reasonable position to hold it from. But I obviously didn't want to touch her there, due to my OCD.
And so instead of holding the chair normally, like anybody else would do, I tried to hold it very weirdly with my fingertips only, to avoid any touches. And while I tried to lift the chair very awkwardly, I almost let it slip and thus, my daughter's crotch was touching my palm. And all of this made it even more uncomfortable for me, as I also experienced groinal responses in this very moment she accidentally touched me. And as you can imagine, my anxiety spiked hard by this. 
So I had to put down the chair again and considered grabbing the chair's seat further up or further down, away from her crotch. But because of how dangerous it would be due to the imbalance, I rejected this idea very quickly. And in this very moment, while trying to find a better way, out of a sudden, I somehow had the urge to purposely grab the seat exactly between my daughter legs, which would mean, that I would have her crotch in my grip. Like I wanted to touch her there. A classical intrusive urge. And now, for whatever reason and I still don't understand how, I just went through and did so. Like without giving it a second thought. Impulsively, yet knowingly, what I'm doing. And the worst in all of this, that in this very moment I grabbed the seat there, I was hyperaware of everything, and it felt like, as if I've liked or was thrilled by it. I'm not sure if it was a sexual feeling, but I'm pretty sure that it felt like, as if I've liked it in this very moment. 
And while I was lifting the chair to the table, my daughter somehow pulled herself out from my grip as I've grabbed it relatively lightly. And for whatever reason, I didn't like that! But to make it even worse, her crotch was now touching my hand very slightly the whole time, while I was moving the chair to the table. And I again was hyperaware of that! It felt electrifying being aware of that. I felt as if again I wanted it, touch my hands. All of this happened in a matter of seconds. And I'm not sure if I did, but I might even have made micro movements with my hand towards her, because of the urge - I feel so disgusting by just typing this.

Well, the moment I put the chair down, reality hit me: I was shocked by what just happened. What the hell did I just do? I tried to make sense of it. Tried to remember what exactly happened and was completely disgusted by myself. I couldn't grasp what happened, as it was completely out of character. I mean: Did I just sexually assaulted my beloved baby daughter? How on earth was I capable of doing so?! That's my biggest fear and for whatever reason I acted on an intrusive urge and not only that, but it felt as if I've liked it! I've never ever experienced something like that in my whole life and couldn't make any sense out of it. What the hell was that? While I was aware of intrusive sensations, feelings and urges, I always thought that people with OCD would never act on it, including myself. And until this day, I can't say to myself, that all of this was just an accident, intrusive thought or whatever, I would never act on. Because I did so. I disgustingly did so! It really felt like, as if I did do that out of a bad intention. 

What still "helps me" to move on with life is to know, that nobody else would have seen anything weird by that, as it's completely reasonable to hold the chair this way. The only reason I didn't grip the chair this way in the first place, was because of my OCD and my fears. Like, who cares what your intention were? Who cares what you felt in this very moment? It was the most reasonable way anyway. But the 'What Ifs' are killing me here: What If I slightly altered my movements because of the urges? What If I really made this micro movements? What If slightly gripped harder out of the intrusive urge? But I also know, that it was something out of a moment and nothing I planned out. Like impulsively and spontaneous. I just don't know what happened here. Really. Was it just biology? Does this happen to others as well? Is this just OCD? I mean, all of this happened in a matter of seconds. Like five to ten seconds maybe? But I can't let go of the fact, that I did it out of a bad intention! That's the difference between me and others!

I've talked about this incident with several people, and all of them told me, that they wouldn't make a big deal out of that, as this is nothing I should worry about. But I'm not sure if they really understand me or what happened. Or maybe I don't understand them? I even showed several people what exactly happened and yeah, from the outward it's really something super innocent and normal, but I'm afraid that I might have altered my movements, and I'm extremely ashamed by my intentions and feelings when all of that happened. I'm disgusted that it felt like, as if I have gripped the chair there and thus her crotch out of a bad intention. And I've told them about that! Over and over! Yet, they still are like: "Dude, chill out. This could have happened to us as well. Just shrug it off already. Everything is alright. It's just human. Sometimes we have moments like that. They don't matter, because you didn't harm anyone, nor did you like it in the aftermath. And that's the only thing that it is important. Nobody would have made a big deal out of it. It's not like you did something very clearly bad. Is something extremely minor.". But how am I not able to see it that way?! Is my view of reality that distorted, that I make such a big deal out of that? Is it really that minor?

I'm really not sure. And yes, I would love to be able to label it as OCD and move on, but if it feels wrong and false to do so. It's like the only thing holding me back from complete recovery. The worst of all, is that It happened like two years ago. I never ever focused on that during therapy, but more on beating the general obsession of touching others inappropriately. I did talk about this and another incident, I already posted on here once, but I never really understood them. I can't grasp how it's still just OCD. And while I got over it the one incident, I posted here before, I never got over this. Maybe because my daughter can't laugh it off, like my friend did?  I feel like a hypocrite acting as a cool dad around my children. I feel like as if I'm an actually a monster, who don't deserve to have them. I see my daughter and just feel so much shame and pain. Right now, I hate my life.

Can anyone bring me to my senses? Right now I feel completely devastated. What should I do?

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3 minutes ago, discuccsant said:

I've talked about this incident with several people, and all of them told me, that they wouldn't make a big deal out of that, as this is nothing I should worry about. But I'm not sure if they really understand me or what happened. Or maybe I don't understand them? I even showed several people what exactly happened and yeah, from the outward it's really something super innocent and normal, but...

 

But you still have doubts because it's OCD, and nothing will ever reassure the doubt of OCD.

It's OCD making you think it's 'something' in the first place, and OCD convincing you there must be a reason why other people aren't seeing this the way you see it.

Which is why you wrote all this unnecessary spiel, going to great lengths to tell us exactly what happened, even putting in a link to the chair type to help us visualise it as you see it. :ohmy:

But we don't and we never will see it as the problem you think it is.  All we see is a chair, a toddler, a parent, a non-event. We don't see it how you see it because we don't have OCD about this particular thing.

If I wrote a ten page screed about why I was afraid the ketchup bottle might fall off the table you would roll your eyes and think 'what nonsense about nothing'. Because your obsession isn't about a ketchup bottle falling off the table. (Neither is mine by the way, I just needed an example you would see was 'nothing' so you could see the OCD in it instead of getting caught up in irrelevant details.)

All of this - the details, the doubt over your intentions, the replaying of it in your mind, ruminating on the rights and wrongs of it,worrying you've been misunderstood... ALL of this is OCD.

14 minutes ago, discuccsant said:

I would love to be able to label it as OCD and move on, but if it feels wrong and false to do so.

Can anyone bring me to my senses? Right now I feel completely devastated. What should I do?

You have a choice. You can go on believing the lies your OCD thinking creates, buy into the feeling of it being wrong to let it go and carry on going round in circles.

OR

 You can label it as OCD. See through the lies, see past the feeling of not letting it go.  Accept it is nothing, never was. OCD convinced you it was. But you want to get your head straight now and think rationally, sensibly, normally - not carry on with this distorted view of the world created by OCD.

Labelling it as OCD isn't where the work stops. It's where it starts. You have to work at not engaging with the thoughts and feelings any more. You have to work at truly accepting it is/was/always will be nonsense OCD thinking leading you to these doubts and faulty conclusions. You have to stop wanting to resolve thisbefore you let it go. Let it go and the doubt and feelings of wrongness will pass afterwards.

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Thank you very much @snowbear, and sorry for the late reply. I just was on a very bad spot and somehow not capable of replying. But it was a huge help for me. 

I know you are right. It's so stupid how OCD manages out of nothing to completely overtake me and make minor events into such a big deal in my mind. I always feel like, as if I'm thrown back into a time, where I didn't function for years, because OCD completely took over. It's so hard. 

And today it really feels as if I have in fact two different brains, where one is very calm and logic-driven, while the other one is being hyperaware, self-crippling and full of self-hatred due to OCD's negative influence on it. 

I think the hardest path in all of this is to really stay calm and try to focus on other things, whenever OCD makes its move on me. I always feel like as if I'm almost over it and is if I do understand every thing intellectually. But then, the catastrophizing aspect of OCD manages to overtake my perception and creates a huge distortion, which makes it then REALLY hard to ignore. I really do feel like the worst human being in moments like these, and I really do feel like, as if, I'm just belittling huge events. I think people call it a "backdoor spike". That's basically what's always happening to me here and then.

I just wish I could get rid of it completely. It's slowing down my life goals and makes me or less non-functional for the period of time I'm in this OCD distorted mode. 

I really need to find a way to stop this. 

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15 minutes ago, discuccsant said:

But then, the catastrophizing aspect of OCD manages to overtake my perception and creates a huge distortion,

This often happens to me. I still can make a catastrophe out of something quite minor.  This is where I have to refer back to my therapy notes and dig in and practise the stuff I would do to stop the compulsive behaviour.  For me it is about learning and gaining experience.  Over a long period of time the catastrophisation events are becoming less intense and less frequent.  Rome wasn't built in a day...... 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hey again. 

I think what makes me really "fall back" into the OCD cycle, is when I try to go into detail about exactly what happened and also the way, how I sentence things. And therefore it feels like, as if I have two different brains:

I'm like very calm, when I think: "Hey, I wanted to move the chair, but while doing so, I had weird vibes. It was weird and confusing for me in the aftermath. Never ever had something like that before or after that event. Just weird and I should forget about. All cool.". And it's okay for me to let it go this way. I mean. If someone with OCD told me about a story like that, I would be like: Common, your brain constantly fuels you with intrusive thoughts you panic about. And just because you think you might have done something with a bad intention or that you did micro movements, not even noticeable with a magnifying glass, while doing a normal thing: Who cares? It's not a big deal. Who cares if in a split second you felt this or that while doing a normal thing? Really! Calm down! → Brain A.

But if I go into detail and think about it like: "I had to put my hands there, when I wanted to move the chair, but didn't want to at first, but had no alternatives. Then I was hyperaware of the exact moment, knew what it would mean to put my hands there and when my grip was touching this and that...", I go into full panic mode. And then I make the disgusting connection to real monsters. And I start to question myself: Did they have the same wrong intention, like I had in a split second, while they did their horrendous crimes? Did they also feel extreme guilt? Does it mean I'm capable of doing worse things? Was it a glimpse of my true character and desires? Am I a monster? What would society think about me?→ Brain B.

And my brains are now constantly fighting in my head, over the true interpretation of events. And this is so confusing to me. Who is the right one here? Why does brain B have such a power over me emotionally, that I feel like the biggest scum on earth? And why on earth is brain A so calm about this and isn't panicking at all, that it just feels like completely ridiculous giving the event even the slightest of any meaning? That is what I mean when I say, that I have like to different brains.

And it's so hard to deal with it. I feel good for like one to 4 weeks, sometimes even more, just to feel completely bad about it again. I hate it. In these moments, I don't function at all. 

The biggest problem with these two brain modes, is that both sound completely reasonable in their approach to me. It's just a matter of how I perceive things.

And If my brain A is having control over me, that I do feel good again, yet I start "hearing voices" telling me, that I may lie to myself. That I try to belittle things. On the other hand, if brain B is on charge and I completely feel like, as if I can't take the anxiety, guilt and self-hatred anymore, I start having background thoughts, telling me that I'm making a big deal out of nothing, that I should stop being a drama queen over nothing and that I'm wasting my precious time over nonsense.

I don't know what to do. 

Any advice on this?

Edited by discuccsant
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It's very simple, discussant. 

Your Brain A is you thinking normally and being mentally well. :)

Your Brain B is 100% OCD thinking and is active when you're not well. :(

You need to build your confidence that it's ok to ignore Brain B no matter how urgent or convincing it tries to be. Just say, 'That's my OCD, I'm not going there' and ignore it.

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  • 1 month later...

Thanks snowbear. As always. 

I'm basically stuck with real events like this - not sure if others would even notice these kinds of moments. There are a lot, in fact, which makes it so hard to move on from it.  Sometimes I'm wondering if I may miss something or not in all of this. 

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My problem with that, is that I do have a very high moral compass. I condemn anything like that. I would never ever hurt someone with my full consciousness. In moments like these, though, which are spontaneous and semi-consciously, I just act according to my feelings, out of a situation and within the flow of my state, without giving it any second thought. Simply because, there is no time to do so. I just go with the flow of the emotions, feelings and moments. It all happens in a very short amount of time, as I get back to my full senses pretty soon again, while realizing, that what I'm doing is not okay. But I hate that it even happens.

It's similar to a moment, where you don't want to look into someone's phone, while the person is writing to someone privately, yet you do take a short look out of a spontaneous feeling, just to stop it immediately the moment after, because of how wrong it is to invade into someone's privacy by doing so further. These split seconds moments, where you just don't act according to your morals, are the reason I'm stuck with OCD. I would never "plan" to do something like that, but when I happen to be in a situation like this, and it happens frequently throughout everything in my life, it's crippling, yet it's always very spontaneous, out of the situation and pretty minor. Like I wouldn't actually plan to take someone's phone, while he isn't looking beforehand and to proceed to do so, for more than just seconds. No. Of course not. That's against my morals, beliefs and desires. But in these very moments, it seems like as if my brain, had not enough time to reflect upon my emotions and just proceed to do so. 

And it makes me think: Why do moments like that happen to me? Do moments like that happen to everyone? And as long as I can't answer these two questions, I seem to be in a state, where I can't relate it to my OCD. People never act on their intrusive thoughts, feelings and urges. Not even for a split second. In my case though, it seems as if I do so, even if I'm condemning it seconds later and immediately realize, that it is a bad thing. If there would be at least some kind of official definition for that, which describes moments like these, I think I could move on from it. But none. Obviously, people know about moments like that and can relate to them, but I still doubt, that they are experiencing the same thing as me. It's just so hard to move on from it...

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4 hours ago, discuccsant said:

My problem with that, is that I do have a very high moral compass. I condemn anything like that.

:ohmy:  I'm shocked. Insulted. :mad:

Do you realise what you're saying by thinking this way? It suggests that anybody who doesn't ruminate on these things has low moral values! Well really. :wontlisten:

 

Now, I'm joking about being shocked and insulted, so don't worry. :)  But my point is you tell yourself this reason and in doing so it reinforces your belief that you have to ruminate on it, because not responding with the 'appropriate' compulsions would be to lower your moral standards.

Can you see how that way of thinking keeps you locked into 'having' to do compulsions and 'not allowed' to resist your OCD?

In short, telling yourself that your OCD reflects 'good' moral values is bashing your head against a brick wall when it comes to recovery. :wallbash: Save yourself the headache!

Get used to thinking of this in a different way. Your moral values can be high - the highest-  without needing to prove it/ protect them from slipping/ do compulsions to maintain them etc.

That may sound pedantic, but in fact it's HUGE.  You're sending your brain the message 'I have to work at it to stay morally good' . :no:  You don't. You can safely take it for granted you'll always act according to your values without monitoring it.

4 hours ago, discuccsant said:

I would never "plan" to do something like that. That's against my morals, beliefs and desires. But in these very moments, it seems like as if my brain, had not enough time to reflect upon my emotions and just proceed to do so. 

Another thinking flaw. Equating unplanned action/ intrusive thoughts with premeditated deliberate action/ thinking. It's not the same.

Even the law makes a distinction between premeditated murder and manslaughter!

Meanwhile this monitoring of your actions for any 'unplanned' slippage of morality is maintaining the (false) belief that you 'have' to be careful or make amends or whatever your personal compulsions aim to achieve for you. Maintaining your OCD. More headbutting thinking.  :wallbash: 

4 hours ago, discuccsant said:

Why do moments like that happen to me? Do moments like that happen to everyone?

That's simple. Moments like this happen to you BECAUSE they happen to everyone!

The difference is how people respond. You go into 'Gotta protect my moral standards' mode :ohmy:  and most people (if they register the intrusion at all) simply ignore it and carry on, treating it as unimportant because they recognise it doesn't reflect them or their morals and can't do them or their standards any harm.

4 hours ago, discuccsant said:

even if I'm condemning it seconds later and immediately realize, that it is a bad thing.

So this is the bit you need to work on. :)

STOP condemming it. STOP labelling the thought/action you had as bad.

Instead label it as 'just a thought' or 'unplanned accidental and innocent'.

Learn to recognise that experiencing such moments is not in any way a reflection on you or your morals. Ignoring it does not put your moral standards at risk or reduce them in any way.

And then you follow the routine advice for OCD - rrefuse to engage, refocus and carry on without so much as batting an eyelid.

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Thank you very much, snowbear. The time you put in to give me advice, to give me something to work on, is something that gives me hope in this pain and struggle. I really appreciate what you're doing here for me. There are times, where I feel lonely, even though I have family and friends. Everything feels lost in these dark moments of my life. It just seems as if no one understands me. Being here on this forum, reading your advice though, makes me feel, as if somebody does understand my struggle and dark situation I'm in.

I'll try to reflect on this and try to apply what you've told me:

Take the chair example. Instead of simply acknowledging and belittling it, I tried to find excuses for myself - which may be right to be honest - that I had to hold the chair this way anyway or that it was in fact much safer to hold it this way, while my OCD (the initial fear of holding it that way) would have prevented me from holding it correctly. It's a pretty good reason to know, that it's completely irrelevant, because of how normal it from the outside seems. I mean, when I first told people about what happened, they all said: "Well, I would have held the chair the exact same way as you did, buddy. That's the most reasonable thing to do, isn't it?". It was literally just a stupid feeling/urge in my head. And I'm also pretty sure, that I would not have hold the chair anyway, even with the urge, if I hadn't had to move the chair in the first place! It's basically so easy to move on from this, but guess what: OCD!

I've REALLY tried to find a way OUT of this from a rational point of view. But by doing so, I had thoughts like: "Are you really sure, that you've held it the best possible way? Did you maybe alter your movements slightly because of this, contrary to what normal people would do?" popping out of my head. And because of that, I was basically stuck in this cycle of all these "What If's" bombarding me within. Constantly re-traumatizing myself. It was hell after hell. I tried to recreate the moments (of course not with any living thing) for like three to fours hours a day, to define what I did, with what feeling and movements. I've found a solution to a "What If", just to get the next one thrown at me: I've felt good for seconds, minutes, days, weeks or even month, just to be re-traumatized by another random "What If?". 

I think by simply saying to myself: "Maybe it did happen that way or this way. It doesn't matter, because it was an intrusive anyway". I could have gone on from that much easier. But I didn't. Nope! I wanted certainty from not being a monster. I wanted to believe myself that I did nothing wrong! From my perspective, I have feared that I might have done something horrible, even if it was intrusive. I really think most people would have told themselves, though, that they didn't. But my "What If's" were preventing me from doing. And you're right: Because of that, I constantly ruminated over it. The sole reason for my rumination is the guilt I'm feeling, which may be a product of my belief, that what happened was horrible and makes me a bad person.

I think my thinking is very similar to people with OCD regarding their sexuality: It's not a big deal to get randomly some kind of sexual arousal from someone of the same gender, for example, because one would simply know, that this doesn't mean anything. If so, so what? I'm still straight. Still like women and would never ever do something with a man, despite it. For what? It's a stupid thought/sensation/feeling/urge. Who cares, really? It's just nonsense. People who fear that they might be homosexuals, though, try to reason with the thought: "Why did I felt this arousal? What could the groinal response mean? Were there things in my past that indicate that I'm an actual homosexual?". And with that, they can't go on with their life. From an outside perspective, I really don't understand people with sexual orientation OCD. It would be extremely easy for me to move on from that. No matter the orientation I would fear to have, I could easily overcome them. FlyingRocket's problem for example sounds completely silly to me. And that's because I don't have OCD about it.

And maybe, just maybe, others would also feel the same about my problem? I maybe just need to re-label intrusive moments like that in itself as not something bad, but as something human. Something, which happens to the best of us. Everybody does have intrusive thoughts, sensations, feeling, urges and actions like that throughout their life. What really matters is what we identify ourselves with in the end, if it was really planned or not. And no. Obviously not. It's always out of the moment. I know that I would never fantasize about these kinds of things in a sick kind of way. That's just not me. The only things they do cause me while I'm ruminating over them, is the extreme feeling of guilt, despair, self-hatred and anxiety. Nothing else. 

What do I need to do: 

- Stop interpreting this kind of intrusive thoughts (they are still intrusive in their nature) as something of importance.
- Accepting them as something normal, which happens to everybody.
- Don't try to find out why and how the urge was popping out, i.e. "Oh, maybe I have some kind of deviant fetish, etc.".
- Don't engage with any kind of "What If's".
- Stop defining myself, moral code and standards by the kind of things.
- Give myself a break and letting me re-focus on my life.
- Belittling it as something silly and nothing of big importance.
- Not making it a dealbreaker regarding my soundness.
- Not giving them any other label then simply "Intrusive Stuff. Forget about it. No need to ruminate over it".
- Stop any compulsions, no matter how hard it seems to resist. 

And there you go. I should be able to move on from this. I really hope that I'll be able to do so. 

Thanks again, snowbear. I'll hold your replies in very high regards, and I wish you the best on your journey with OCD! I hope, that we'll at some point both overcome it completely. 

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13 hours ago, discuccsant said:

What do I need to do: 

- Stop interpreting this kind of intrusive thoughts (they are still intrusive in their nature) as something of importance.
- Accepting them as something normal, which happens to everybody.
- Don't try to find out why and how the urge was popping out, i.e. "Oh, maybe I have some kind of deviant fetish, etc.".
- Don't engage with any kind of "What If's".
- Stop defining myself, moral code and standards by the kind of things.
- Give myself a break and letting me re-focus on my life.
- Belittling it as something silly and nothing of big importance.
- Not making it a dealbreaker regarding my soundness.
- Not giving them any other label then simply "Intrusive Stuff. Forget about it. No need to ruminate over it".
- Stop any compulsions, no matter how hard it seems to resist. 

:yes: :yes: :yes:  Excellent!

 

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