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New Housing regulations.


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My landlord is the council. It's a two level flat, with two fire escapes.

At present they are forcing these new regulations on to us tenants. So the plan is to seal off the two fire escape hatches, one of which leads outside my front door. Then they are going to replace all doors and door frames and the new frames will have intumescent strips which seal the doors shut if heat or smoke interacts with them. In case of a fire, we are supposed to sit in our sealed room and wait for the fire brigade to rescue us using a truck with a boom.

The council is supposed to, under Housing act S105, carry out a consultation with the tenants before they make any changes. What they actually did was breach the Data Protection act and gave out my details(incl: phone and email) to the contractors and they have been hassling me for months.

So they keep trying to make me interact with the contractors(even lying about fake delap surveys!). I refuse and am now receiving threats of legal action.

I've spoken to many other tenants who also don't want to lose their only escape route and be sealed in. I have tried to reach a compromise with the Project leader. They say thing like that's the way it's done now, statistically it takes a fire engine ten minutes to get here(not reality), statistically fires don't start in hallways, etc.

This is really playing on my mind, it makes me feel anxious, the idea of being sealed in. I wake up at night thinking about it. I think it's partly a control issue for me, control of my environment.

It just seems ridiculous to seal off a perfectly good fire escape that allows me to exit the building quickly.

Has anyone had this forced on them recently or does anyone know about these new regulations?

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I haven't heard of this specifically, but our flats have had minor some 'upgrades' to signage etc recently after a fire survey.  

Which floor are you on?  And is this a sheltered flat or is it just general needs?  

I can see the point of this, particularly for disabled tenants, but would not want to be trapped inside during a fire myself.  I'm agoraphobic though, so can't stand being trapped anywhere, and may not be the best person to advise lol!

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I'm on the top floor, the 9th and it just a normal flat. I like the flat, it's spacious with big windows and great views.

I had a lot of problems with the council using the police to harass me which led to me not opening my door or answering my phone.

So the council organised a visit today, but my stomach starts churning, I felt stressed and even my OCD started making me check taps were off, etc.

All I want the council to do is carry out a proper consultation with all the tenants, but they know that no one wants to be told they are sealed in. So they haven't informed tenants of the changes and are thinking they can just force it on us.

Everyone I've spoken to doesn't want to lose their escape route. It would lead to situatons where the children may be sealed in one room, the parents in another, having to wait for the fire brigade, then the tenants and children would have to climb out of a window on to a ladder, with flames and smoke below them. I think we are all a bit haunted by the scenes at Grenfell Tower.

I can't stand the idea of being trapped in anywhere either, it makes me panic.

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At the very least the council should hold a meeting to explain the proposed changes and perceived benefits so tenants can raise their concerns. If they threaten legal action you can tell them they are the ones breaking the law by not holding such a meeting before forcing changes onto tennants.

I don't see why they can't leave the fire escape as it is and put in some additional defenses so that those able to get out can do so and those unable to get to the fire escape can be sealed in to wait.

I empathise with your panic and reluctance to answer door/phone due to previous encounters. But in this instance it gives them the chance to say (lie?) that they tried to make contact and follow the rules and regulations but you refused to meet with them.

My advice is be bold. Push yourself out of your comfort zone and ask to speak to someone who can explain the proposals in detail. Make it clear that you are only asking for information, not agreeing to anything. Record the phone call if needs be. And speak to your local fire station about your concerns. Ask what the fire service thinks about the new arrangements.

What you don't want is to get stuck in a situation where they take away the fire escape but don't put in the seals on your flat due to denied access. Or to have the landlord (council) use their legal right to have 'reasonable' access and let the contractors in despite your protests. Try to get into a dialogue with them before it goes that far.

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17 minutes ago, snowbear said:

At the very least the council should hold a meeting to explain the proposed changes and perceived benefits so tenants can raise their concerns. If they threaten legal action you can tell them they are the ones breaking the law by not holding such a meeting before forcing changes onto tennants.

I don't see why they can't leave the fire escape as it is and put in some additional defenses so that those able to get out can do so and those unable to get to the fire escape can be sealed in to wait.

I empathise with your panic and reluctance to answer door/phone due to previous encounters. But in this instance it gives them the chance to say (lie?) that they tried to make contact and follow the rules and regulations but you refused to meet with them.

My advice is be bold. Push yourself out of your comfort zone and ask to speak to someone who can explain the proposals in detail. Make it clear that you are only asking for information, not agreeing to anything. Record the phone call if needs be. And speak to your local fire station about your concerns. Ask what the fire service thinks about the new arrangements.

What you don't want is to get stuck in a situation where they take away the fire escape but don't put in the seals on your flat due to denied access. Or to have the landlord (council) use their legal right to have 'reasonable' access and let the contractors in despite your protests. Try to get into a dialogue with them before it goes that far.

Thanks. Yes that's what's happening and happened today. I said I didn't want the contractor here, cancelled yesterday. I said I'd prefer a council surveyor to carry out the survey.

My Housing Officer switched it this morning, emailed me, but I didn't log on that early so hopefully she'll understand that.

I do find it really hard to have people in my home, it is my controlled space that makes me feel safe. But I can handle one surveyor though in shoe covers!

I did read, as well as the Housing act 1985 S105, which states that 'all secure tenants must be consulted before any changes are made', a piece of info about how important consultations are and how they should be carried out, it was by an associate at a law firm, I've sent a copy to the council. Told them it's still possible.

I tend to get involved in things with a bit of righteousness, standing up to organisations, but it also makes me a target.

I don't want the seals. It's a nightmare the idea of being sealed in. I did ask the Fire safety officer to come and examine the changes and reassure tenants, but he refused and referred me back to the council.

As soon as the visit time was over, I calmed down. But thanks for the support, sometimes it's just good to know other people see things reasonably as well.

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  • 11 months later...

I'm still struggling with this, but I'm not sure if it's my OCD anxiety, claustrophobia or the fact that I like to be in control of my own fate and don't like things being forced on me.

I'm the only one now I believe who has still got the original fire escape, but that won't last long.  The council have been trying all sorts of tactics; they took me to court to gain access, put 150 pages of evidence through my door on a monday, civil court on the following friday, hired an expensive lawyer(£330 for ten minutes in court, which I would have had to pay if I lost). Sent a surveyor round twice for over two hours looking for a resaon to evict me.

I'd put in the required two complaints to council about the lack of consultation, and passed it on to the Housing Ombudsman(basically a legal team). The council claimed they had carried out a consultation meeting during lockdown and a limited zoom meeting. The HO agreed they had acted correctly.

But I still can't handle the idea of being sealed in and having to wait, if there was a fire, for a fire engine to arrive(they are also turning this area into a low traffic neighbourhood with blocked off roads), then having to climb out of a window onto a ladder, in maybe the middle of the night, with maybe smoke engulfing the building.

There was a fire a year ago in one of the blocks nearby, and a man fell to his death trying to escape the flames and smoke by climbing out of a window. The fire brigade were slow to respond.

Most officials believe I'm just being unreasonable. But anxiety is real and I do want to be in control of my own fate. Or is my OCD exaggerating this or am I claustrophobic?

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  • 4 weeks later...

Howard, i've just come across this thread, and I can't quite believe (maybe I don't understand) what you are being put through. SEaled in? Surely that is not legal, or ethical? In my mind, it is madness and inhumane to get rid of fire escapes, if they are a way to get out for anyone. I presume the doors only seal if the fire is outside? What happens if there is a fire in your flat while you are in there, say in middle of night? Will your door seal and can you unseal it yourself? What if you were threatened by the smoke in your flat? I know regulations are put there to stop the fire spreading and enable the Fire Brigade to do their work without people obstructing them, but to prevent any individual leaving their flat if they need to do during the fire can't be right in my opinion. 

So I completely get you for not liking it even if maybe I have the same issues as you.  What do others who dont mind it say? I saw the Grenfell play recently, and the mistakes that were made by the council/contractors were completely stupid, eg wrong floor number signage on the walls. And I think you bring up some good points regarding family members in different rooms.  Who wants to be sealed in to rely on the fire brigade, even if at the time they dont seem to be coming? Not me.  Its a shame that you couldn't all get together over this and all refuse to let them have access. I do hope you have got somewhere, he's with you goal of keeping the fire escape, or some other resolution for you.

I don't want to make it worse,  but it seems wrong to me too and I hope something i've said helps a bit to clarify things? What about your MP?

 

Edited by bendylouise
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On 26/08/2023 at 20:08, bendylouise said:

Howard, i've just come across this thread, and I can't quite believe (maybe I don't understand) what you are being put through. SEaled in? Surely that is not legal, or ethical? In my mind, it is madness and inhumane to get rid of fire escapes, if they are a way to get out for anyone. I presume the doors only seal if the fire is outside? What happens if there is a fire in your flat while you are in there, say in middle of night? Will your door seal and can you unseal it yourself? What if you were threatened by the smoke in your flat? I know regulations are put there to stop the fire spreading and enable the Fire Brigade to do their work without people obstructing them, but to prevent any individual leaving their flat if they need to do during the fire can't be right in my opinion. 

So I completely get you for not liking it even if maybe I have the same issues as you.  What do others who dont mind it say? I saw the Grenfell play recently, and the mistakes that were made by the council/contractors were completely stupid, eg wrong floor number signage on the walls. And I think you bring up some good points regarding family members in different rooms.  Who wants to be sealed in to rely on the fire brigade, even if at the time they dont seem to be coming? Not me.  Its a shame that you couldn't all get together over this and all refuse to let them have access. I do hope you have got somewhere, he's with you goal of keeping the fire escape, or some other resolution for you.

I don't want to make it worse,  but it seems wrong to me too and I hope something i've said helps a bit to clarify things? What about your MP?

 

That's okay, you aren't saying anything I haven't said myself. I spent quite a bit of time consulting with the planners trying to get them to see common sense> like why seal off perfectly good fire escapes that are a part of the original building?

In many ways since Grenfell they have gone into over doing it. I'm not sure if we will be open the internal doors once the sealant has expanded. The council don't even want us to try. Apparently we are supposed to sit in whichever room we get sealed in and wait to be rescued.

I'm already looking at these telescopic ladders with hooks on the top, so I can get out of a window onto a walkway. I just don't think I can sit there and wait.(although with ocd, a fire is highly unlikely in my flat, overchecking has some positives).

All the tenants want to keep their fire escapes, but feel powerless because of the council. They've threatened to evict me a number of times for asking questions and not instantly complying. If everyone had made a collective complaint it would have worked. I did notify 110 homes of their rights.

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Thanks for replying Howard. I think it's disgusting that you've been threatened with eviction and feel very frustrated for you when I read this. I'm guessing its lethargy with the tenants – you can't make people take appropriate action/care. I can certainly understand not having the energy to fight things, but this seems ridiculous. I take it you've dismissed trying your MP for help?  Surely you need to go above the council now to explain everything that's happened and that you need help?

Edited by bendylouise
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On 30/08/2023 at 15:07, bendylouise said:

Thanks for replying Howard. I think it's disgusting that you've been threatened with eviction and feel very frustrated for you when I read this. I'm guessing its lethargy with the tenants – you can't make people take appropriate action/care. I can certainly understand not having the energy to fight things, but this seems ridiculous. I take it you've dismissed trying your MP for help?  Surely you need to go above the council now to explain everything that's happened and that you need help?

I'm really good at fighting for my rights. It's probably the only time citizens can feel like they have any power. I think I contacted everyone from the Housing minister, to the Fire Brigade fire safety officer, but mostly focused on getting the Housing Ombudsman(a specialist legal team) to investigate why the council hadn't consulted with tenants as they are legally obliged to. I think they didn't carry out a proper consultation because they knew what tenants would say.

I think most people who rent out properties will have to implement these new regulations. They fit these heavy fire doors(that smoke goes underneath to set off alarms) with closers on them. Imagine being sealed in with a fire alarm going off, just waiting and waiting and then having to climb out of a window. It is ridiculous.

So every door closes behind you. Parents are complaining that their children can't run freely around their homes any more. People don't want to be sealed in.

So everyone is now wedging all their doors open, which means in reality we are worse off than before when we had normal doors and fire escapes. Got to love how whatever authorities do, people always find a hack.

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