Real event OCD issue.

[phillev]

Hi everyone, I'm having one of those horrible memories from years ago that my OCD has latched onto. It goes back about forty years ago believe it or not when I was arguing with my older brother. He was sitting in the armchair and I was standing directly in front of him and he was pushing me and I grabbed him with both my hands around his neck and he told me to get off as I was strangling him so I released my grip straight away. I can't remember how hard I was squeezing as it's so long ago but of course that doesn't matter to the illness as far as it's concerned I was trying to kill him. I don't remember him telling my Mum or Dad about it and I don't think he had any marks on his neck... Of course the biggest issue is the ability not to be able to remember it exactly how it happened. What if I'd carried on and done something unforgivable?

[TheThinker]

Hi @phillev, 

I can really relate to this. I also need to 'know' that I didn't do something, and I really struggle with 'what if...?' thoughts. As part of my OCD, I worry about having done something illegal, and I always think, 'What if I did the thing...?' 

Like me, it sounds like you have doubt both ways: you doubt that you didn't do it, and you doubt that you did do it. I suppose we need to make the doubt work for us - if we'd really done the thing, would we doubt it so much? Would we have doubt both ways? Perhaps we should use the doubt-both-ways to our advantage, as a sign that the non-OCD part of us is fighting back. 

[phillev]

This definitely did happen though, what I'm doubting is... Say my brother hadn't of said what he said would I have carried on, how hard was I squeezing his neck etc. This is turning into another nightmare!

[determination987]

3 hours ago, phillev said:

This definitely did happen though, what I'm doubting is... Say my brother hadn't of said what he said would I have carried on, how hard was I squeezing his neck etc. This is turning into another nightmare!

The issue with memories is that we can never truly be certain of what happened and that’s why OCD can take hold. Real event or not, OCD distorts and blows out of proportion anything that it can to keep you trapped in a loop. The more you ‘revisit’ a memory, the more it changes and the more ‘evidence’ OCD will insert to fit its theory to keep you arguing against it. 
 

The thing is - we don’t need certainty on the past because it’s in the past. The person you were forty years ago is not the same person you are now and you cannot possibly gain certainty on it. By doing compulsions, you are ensuring that you are stuck in a loop of trying to prove or analyse something and therefore, keeping you in the nightmare. 
 

Regardless of what happened, you are here right now in the present. You are allowed to live here and now and enjoy your day. If a thought starts with a ‘what if’, it’s never going to help. Hypothetical thoughts are just thoughts and don’t change anything.

I’ve been there and I’ve been so desperate to know for certain that I didn’t do something horrendous or checking whether it was that bad or if others would do the same but it got me nowhere. In fact, the more I thought about it then the worse it became and my self esteem and self worth would plummet, making it all feel impossible to recover from.

We are not our thoughts and we are not our actions. We can live life how we want to right now and let the thought quieten itself. Don’t fight the thoughts and don’t push them away but just let them be there. Trust that it’s OCD at play and that you can continue your life without gaining certainty on this. 

I find that practicing a bit of self compassion can really help. Be kind to yourself and try to reduce the negative self talk and judgement. It’s really difficult I know, but it will get better.

You have two choices. You can continue to analyse, revisit and check the situation which will keep your anxiety high and will never be enough to satisfy OCD’s quest.

Or you can acknowledge the thoughts as just thoughts and know that they make you feel distress but you can live your life anyway and know that you can cope with uncomfortable things. 

[phillev]

Hi, thanks for taking the time to reply, the OCD has obviously latched on to what my brother said at the time "Get off your strangling me". What if I was trying to kill him doubts which are very hard to overcome.

[determination987]

1 hour ago, phillev said:

What if I was

This is where you’re getting stuck. What ifs are never helpful. I have done this myself countless times and it never gets me anywhere other than keeping me stuck and miserable. You don’t need the answers to the question. It’s really hard, I know but staying stuck on this thought is never going to help you move forwards. 
 

What do you want to do with your day? If that thought hadn’t popped into your head, what would you be doing instead? Can you do something that keeps your mind on the present? You’re not in the past or the future but you’re here right now and deserve to be present . 

[phillev]

It's the loop cycle which I struggle with. Why did I have my hands around his neck? Was I trying to kill him? It was a stupid fight that siblings have and no more was ever said about it... Why am I doing this to myself?

[determination987]

40 minutes ago, phillev said:

It was a stupid fight that siblings have and no more was ever said about it..

That’s where you need to stop. I get how hard it feels and how irresponsible it feels to not do compulsions but they’re not changing anything other than causing you distress. 

[phillev]

23 hours ago, determination987 said:

That’s where you need to stop. I get how hard it feels and how irresponsible it feels to not do compulsions but they’re not changing anything other than causing you distress. 

My biggest fear and worry is that if my brother hadn't of said what he said would I have carried on? I was only about 12 at the time and now being 52 how the hell do I get any clarity on this? What if I am a bad person, I remember afterwards feeling awful and thinking I was going to go straight to hell. Obviously the worry dissipated over time. I feel like I'm missing a piece of the jigsaw.

[determination987]

18 minutes ago, phillev said:

My biggest fear and worry is that if my brother hadn't of said what he said would I have carried on? I was only about 12 at the time and now being 52 how the hell do I get any clarity on this? What if I am a bad person, I remember afterwards feeling awful and thinking I was going to go straight to hell. Obviously the worry dissipated over time. I feel like I'm missing a piece of the jigsaw.

I honestly get that feeling of wanting clarity on something from the past and worried about intentions and what kind of person I am etc. I know that desperate want for certainty and the expectation that if I could just gain clarity on that one thing, I could live my life again. The issue with OCD is that it will never be enough. No amount of time travelling in our minds, reassurance seeking from ourselves and others and checking memories, will ever give us an answer.

People without OCD have these kind of thoughts too. They likely have those memories that cause them to cringe or wish they’d never happened but they accept them and move on because they don’t do the compulsions. They don’t become stuck.

I’ve had similar feelings of wanting to go back in the past and to know for certain what happened. The more I went over the memory, the worse and more convoluted it became. I would ask others whether they’d had a similar experience and they’d all agree or they’d reassure me that nothing bad had actually happened. Then I’d feel better for a little while but need to check with someone else in case they had a different opinion. Then I would go through the situation again in case I’d missed anything out. It then became more certain to me that because I couldn’t remember something clearly (because no one can, particularly that long ago) then I must have done something bad or had bad intentions. I’d then identify with this feeling and feel low and unworthy of anything. This then kept me in that depression and OCD loop.

I then worked on self help books and advice on here. It was hard but the alternative was harder. I practiced being in the moment and keeping my mind filled with positive activities and worked on self compassion. If I felt like I didn’t deserve a treat, I would get myself one anyway. I was allowed to be treated and to be a human being, just as you are.

After stopping the checks and reassuring myself (the I wouldn’t have done that or I was only x years old etc) I would still get the urge but I knew where that would take me and instead did something else. Walks helped. Slowly, I became less bothered about the memory and now it seems silly to me that I was bothered by it. I could reassure you but it won’t help and I can see in your posts that you know that it’s OCD but are afraid to let go of it.

Have you tried any self help books? Or therapy? I found a small step approach worked well for me and looking at all the other compulsions I was doing - not just the big obsessions but the other rituals and things that I felt I had to do but didn’t seem as bad. Tackling those gave me more confidence to handle the bigger ones.

You can do this! Start setting yourself a goal. Can you delay the rumination? Can you do something nice for yourself today?

[phillev]

I have had therapy in the past and have used some of the diversion techniques I was taught. I will admit I struggle massively still, especially if it's a real event issue the OCD always finds a way. I understand I need to work harder at this but my OCD is so deep routed it's very hard. It just keeps telling me I'm a bad person!

[northpaul]

55 minutes ago, phillev said:

I was only about 12 at the time and now being 52 how the hell do I get any clarity on this?

I had a course of Cognitive Behavioural Therpy last year.  My therapist wanted to look back to events 40-50 years ago to try and explain my thinking and how I can move forward.  I firmly rejected this suggestion and said that I am living with OCD now and it is getting the better of me.  On that we agreed that we would work on therapy in the here and now so that I could get more control of my life back.

That was a key turning point in my therapy - what happened 50 years ago has gone, I am still here and I want to be in control of my life and not let OCD control me.  At this point I am well on the road to regaining more control.  The line has been drawn in the sand and I am determined to stay on recovery road.  What do you think about drawing a line in the sand?

[phillev]

9 minutes ago, northpaul said:

I had a course of Cognitive Behavioural Therpy last year.  My therapist wanted to look back to events 40-50 years ago to try and explain my thinking and how I can move forward.  I firmly rejected this suggestion and said that I am living with OCD now and it is getting the better of me.  On that we agreed that we would work on therapy in the here and now so that I could get more control of my life back.

That was a key turning point in my therapy - what happened 50 years ago has gone, I am still here and I want to be in control of my life and not let OCD control me.  At this point I am well on the road to regaining more control.  The line has been drawn in the sand and I am determined to stay on recovery road.  What do you think about drawing a line in the sand?

I wish I could if only the worry wasn't so serious.... Like the thought I may have carried on and killed my brother, does anyone understand this?

[determination987]

26 minutes ago, phillev said:

I have had therapy in the past and have used some of the diversion techniques I was taught. I will admit I struggle massively still, especially if it's a real event issue the OCD always finds a way. I understand I need to work harder at this but my OCD is so deep routed it's very hard. It just keeps telling me I'm a bad person!

I know . It’s so convincing isn’t it! I think the fact that you care so deeply means that you are a caring person. 
 

I found that self compassion helped me the most. How would I judge someone else in the same situation? I’d treat someone struggling with OCD with compassion and kindness. I never spoke to myself in the same way. My internal voice was always negative and blamed myself for every mistake or potential mistakes and even hypothetical mistakes that I may have made. We are all capable of good and bad actions but that doesn’t change who we are fundamentally. 
 

I would have a look at how you’re speaking to yourself and try and be kinder. That will give you more strength to lessen the compulsions and reduce their effect on you. 
 

The thing with real memory that I have to remind myself is that OCD distorts and blows it all out of proportion. A fight amongst siblings is very common and most people will have stories of the past that they’re not proud of. OCD will take it further and often takes our actions and makes them feel like we’re guilty of something far, far worse. I have had all sorts of obsessions about doing things wrong and I’m extremely rule abiding but OCD will find something, however trivial and convince me I’m horrible.

We don’t need to go back in the past because that’s where it belongs. Good, bad or misunderstood actions don’t make you a good or bad person. It’s not black and white. We don’t need absolute certainty because it doesn’t exist. We can live now according to our values now. 

[determination987]

6 minutes ago, phillev said:

I wish I could if only the worry wasn't so serious.... Like the thought I may have carried on and killed my brother, does anyone understand this?

Yes. It’s because that would feel horrendous to you which is why it sticks. It wouldn’t stick if it wasn’t something distressing. 

[phillev]

Thank you for the continued replies I do appreciate it. Common sense and logic would dictate that if my plan was to really do what the OCD says is I wouldn't have stopped when he said what he said but it's amazing how it has the power to negate that and convince me otherwise. I hate it so much it's like a living hell!

[determination987]

1 minute ago, phillev said:

Thank you for the continued replies I do appreciate it. Common sense and logic would dictate that if my plan was to really do what the OCD says is I wouldn't have stopped when he said what he said but it's amazing how it has the power to negate that and convince me otherwise. I hate it so much it's like a living hell!

I know.

This bit I struggled with. I still find myself trying to justify or rationalise OCD thoughts and then have to remind myself that this doesn’t work. It’s giving myself reassurance and it always comes back with a ‘but’. 
 

If you can try… When you catch yourself reasoning and justifying your actions, try and recognise that it’s the start of rumination and that it will reinforce the thought in your mind. The more attention you give it, the more importance your brain gives it and the more anxious and distressed you’ll become. Instead of the ‘I wouldn’t have stopped’ etc, try and recognise that this is you trying to reassure yourself over something that doesn’t need it. 
 

Thoughts are thoughts, they aren’t facts. Try and accept them as just that. Trying to figure out what could or couldn’t have happened won’t change anything. Accept that it happened, you don’t know what could or couldn’t have happened because you are here right now. You can control what you do right now. 

[northpaul]

32 minutes ago, phillev said:

Common sense and logic would dictate that if my plan was to really do what the OCD says

In this statement it looks like you are trying to draw that line in the sand and put a closure on this issue.  Coming back to the here and now what might you do to enforce the line in the sand and move on?

2 hours ago, phillev said:

I have had therapy in the past and have used some of the diversion techniques I was taught.

I too have had diversion therapy in the past.  My current strategy is to look outwards and forwards rather than inwards or backwards and to look for positive distractions to help me along the road to recovery.  This has indeed helped me to stop looking at the 'what ifs' wether they are past events or things that may happen in future actions.

[phillev]

53 minutes ago, northpaul said:

In this statement it looks like you are trying to draw that line in the sand and put a closure on this issue.  Coming back to the here and now what might you do to enforce the line in the sand and move on?

I too have had diversion therapy in the past.  My current strategy is to look outwards and forwards rather than inwards or backwards and to look for positive distractions to help me along the road to recovery.  This has indeed helped me to stop looking at the 'what ifs' wether they are past events or things that may happen in future actions.

Thank you both again, the line in the sand is what I most need the help with. I've thought about this before not so long ago, it came and went it's when the OCD grabs hold of it that it all goes wrong.

[phillev]

Sorry to bring back an old thread, I was talking to my brother about this and he couldn't even remember the event. Not sure if that's a good or a bad thing and he just said move on which is obviously easier said than done with OCD.