Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I know no one is awake but I feel really really horrible. My parents just left to go back to our country for a week and that's why I'm awake at this time. I've had some pretty disturbing thoughts about my brother yesterday and sexual feelings after being touched/hugged by him, and before I went to bed I randomly thought to myself: let's think about your brother in an inappropriate way, and it almost felt like I wanted to fantasise or something. 

Once again I did it to myself. I just want to punch myself. 

Edited by Cora
Link to comment
  • Replies 133
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

9 minutes ago, Cora said:

Not have that disgusting thought? 

Heh, no. Thoughts are thoughts. They come, they go. You have little to no control over them.

What you can control is your reaction to those thoughts. You choose to ruminate over them. You choose to confess here. You choose to seek reassurance.  Doing so hasn't solved your problem for many years. So maybe you should start doing something different.

Link to comment

Thank you, @PolarBear

I wanted reassurance because even though it was just a thought I think I engaged with it for maybe 10 seconds, and by engaging I mean enjoying it, and I feel really guilty and stupid for that. 

These weird feelings about my little brother went away about a year ago but now they're back and I'm struggling to be around him once again. I also have thoughts that I find him attractive and it makes me feel like I'm in hell. 

Link to comment
43 minutes ago, Cora said:

I think I engaged with it for maybe 10 seconds, and by engaging I mean enjoying it

So what?

It's a thought, you're not doing it for real.

 

44 minutes ago, Cora said:

I feel really guilty and stupid for that. 

There's the problem part. You have no reason to feel guilty.

Stupid? Well, if you keep on reacting the same way after being told a million times to react differently... what's the 'you have been told count up to now? :whistling:  :D

 

Seriously though, you need to learn to say to yourself, 'I had a 'bad' thought and I enjoyed it! How weird is that! :confused1: But hey, it's  just a thought. :) It means nothing.  I enjoyed it and indulged in it for a while and that means nothing either.  :)  I know it's not something I'd DO in reality, so I've done nothing wrong.  :)  I can just let this go.

But instead you react with 'I had a thought. :omg_smilie: OMG, that makes me the same as a person doing it for real. That I enjoyed it means I'm a monster.' :crybaby:

All you take onboard is 'I'm a monster' :crybaby: and your brain shuts down.

You stop thinking. You stop processing anything. So you never reach the stage of realising,  'Hang on a minute :huh: A thought isn't the same as doing it! Having a thought means nothing! Enjoying a fantasy means nothing! I can think it, enjoy the thought, whatever. It still means nothing. :)

 

Has it never occurred to you that the reason you get these thoughts is to be able to test out in a completely safe way what the consequences might be in reality?

Your brain is designed to be able to imagine things you've never done so that you don't have to try them out for real to discover if it's something you like/ don't like, or whether it is morally right or wrong.

It's what our imagination is for!

You want to know the difference between loving your brother and loving a boyfriend? :unsure:  Perfectly sensible question. One that a lot of people ask as they reach puberty.

So you imagine getting sexy with your brother and what happens?

You learn that it doesn't make you feel happy in the same way that imagining a boyfriend does.

Lesson learnt. Question answered. 

So if there's a next time that you think of getting sexy with your brother you have a choice -

1. Recognise the thought popping into your head is meaningless, that it's not somewhere you want to go - and get your mind onto something else straight away

or

2. Recognise the thought popping into your head is meaningless, but that the idea excites you. Indulge in the fantasy for a bit and then dismiss it and get on with your day.

Neither of those options involve guilt, doing something immoral, or monster-ism. Those result entirely from you reacting as if the thought (or enjoying the thought) was the same as doing it in real life.

You're not stupid, Cora. But you have fallen into the habit of allowing your brain to shut down and stop processing anything that shocks or upsets you. You have to push beyond the initial 'OMG, reaction' and stop using the 'I'm a monster' cop out to avoid processing whether or not you do like the fantasy (s).

I think you're terrified by the idea that you might like them because you've never processed things far enough to realise what 'normal' people realise - it's just a thought, just your imagination. It doesn't come with automatic moral judgements attached because enjoying a thought isn't the same as doing it for real.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment

@snowbear, thank you so, so much for taking the time to reply. 

12 hours ago, snowbear said:

Recognise the thought popping into your head is meaningless, but that the idea excites you. Indulge in the fantasy for a bit and then dismiss it and get on with your day.

But wouldn't that be considered paedophilia? Maybe I didn't mention it because I was feeling too guilty and embarrassed but my little brother is 11, and I'm 24. I would never want to engage with such kind of thoughts, but in those moments I feel like a completely different person (almost like a paedophile) and my thinking and behaviour is completely messed up. 

I do realise it's only a thought and not reality, but I still feel horrible. I feel like there should be a limit, and I'm so scared that I crossed it. 

If it ever happens again, I will choose the first option and get my mind onto other things

I want to apologise because I feel like I'm being really gross and inappropriate. I don't want to be like this, I really don't, yet it's still happening. 

Edited by Cora
Link to comment
1 hour ago, Cora said:

Maybe I didn't mention it because I was feeling too guilty and embarrassed but my little brother is 11, and I'm 24.

Let me think, did you mention it... er, 3000 times, or was it 5000?  :laugh:  It's been repeated so often as you've described every tiny detail of your obsessions that I stopped counting.

 

1 hour ago, Cora said:

But wouldn't that be considered paedophilia?

That's my point exactly. NO.

What goes on in the privacy of anybody's head is up to them. How they act in the real world is where moral values kick in. Thoughts and fantasies don't come with a moral value attached, because they're not real. They are just thoughts.

 

1 hour ago, Cora said:

If it ever happens again, I will choose the first option and get my mind onto other things

 If you're having difficulty accepting there is no such thing as 'The Thought Police' then this is a sensible option. It's the option a lot of people choose, because they don't want to go there and don't enjoy the thoughts.

Some people - who are able to accept they are fantasies and not what they want in reality - do enjoy forbidden sex fantasies. It's not in the least inappropriate as long as they don't act on them in reality and they know that. Adult sex sites are full of them. 1000s and 1000s of adults chatting openly about stuff that shocks or horrifies other people.

If you're shocked or scared by it, don't go there. Allow the thoughts to fade naturally without reacting, because reacting only keeps them around for longer.

And lastly, there are some people who choose to act immorally - that's a matter for their conscience and sometimes for the law.  :dry: But it doesn't scare them or faze them. Indeed many of them even deny the immorality of it. They don't obsess about what they enjoy or see themselves as bad people.

 

1 hour ago, Cora said:

I don't want to be like this, I really don't, yet it's still happening. 

Having thoughts that would cross a moral boundary if they were real  is always going to happen from time to time.  Everybody gets these kind of weird, unwanted thoughts occasionally. But they happen much, much more often if you treat them as important or react to them as if they were the real event.

You have to learn not to react to them. Allow them to float into your mind - and float straight back out again - without fighting them, without giving them meaning, without attaching guilt or moral values to them, without calling yourself names for having them, without worrying that it's inappropriate.

Everybody on the planet has disturbing thoughts. In our society that's screwed up about sex in particular, themes around forbidden sex are very common.

Just stop thinking you're different to the rest of us. All that's different is you react to the thoughts floating into your head by obsessing, testing yourself for enjoyment, and compulsively beating yourself up. Whereas we've learned 'They're just meaningless thoughts with no moral value. They don't  reflect  on me as a person or symbolise what I'd want or do in real life. Let them float away again without reacting' 

 

Link to comment

So we're back to this?!

You've been repeating this same story for years, you have gotten so much advice, you have been in therapy. You can't tell me that you don't know what is going on and the right steps to dealing with this.

You consistently choose the easy, albeit more painful way, of dealing with OCD. Confessing, seeking reassurance, this is the easy way out. Sitting with the anxiety, choosing to reframe the thoughts is hard.

It's just the same with your academic work. Procrastinating and wasting time are easy, studying is hard. You keep choosing the easy way, which has led you to this life that is miserable.

It's unfair because you've been dealt with something that is harder than most people will have to face, but you have to get out of it. You have to do the difficult things. Keep choosing the path of least resistance and you won't get anywhere.

I'm sorry to be so harsh because you know I think highly of you, but it's so frustrating to see you wasting your life on this complete and utter nonsense.

 

Link to comment
10 hours ago, snowbear said:

Let me think, did you mention it... er, 3000 times, or was it 5000?  :laugh:  It's been repeated so often as you've described every tiny detail of your obsessions that I stopped counting.

 

That's my point exactly. NO.

What goes on in the privacy of anybody's head is up to them. How they act in the real world is where moral values kick in. Thoughts and fantasies don't come with a moral value attached, because they're not real. They are just thoughts.

 

 If you're having difficulty accepting there is no such thing as 'The Thought Police' then this is a sensible option. It's the option a lot of people choose, because they don't want to go there and don't enjoy the thoughts.

Some people - who are able to accept they are fantasies and not what they want in reality - do enjoy forbidden sex fantasies. It's not in the least inappropriate as long as they don't act on them in reality and they know that. Adult sex sites are full of them. 1000s and 1000s of adults chatting openly about stuff that shocks or horrifies other people.

If you're shocked or scared by it, don't go there. Allow the thoughts to fade naturally without reacting, because reacting only keeps them around for longer.

And lastly, there are some people who choose to act immorally - that's a matter for their conscience and sometimes for the law.  :dry: But it doesn't scare them or faze them. Indeed many of them even deny the immorality of it. They don't obsess about what they enjoy or see themselves as bad people.

 

Having thoughts that would cross a moral boundary if they were real  is always going to happen from time to time.  Everybody gets these kind of weird, unwanted thoughts occasionally. But they happen much, much more often if you treat them as important or react to them as if they were the real event.

You have to learn not to react to them. Allow them to float into your mind - and float straight back out again - without fighting them, without giving them meaning, without attaching guilt or moral values to them, without calling yourself names for having them, without worrying that it's inappropriate.

Everybody on the planet has disturbing thoughts. In our society that's screwed up about sex in particular, themes around forbidden sex are very common.

Just stop thinking you're different to the rest of us. All that's different is you react to the thoughts floating into your head by obsessing, testing yourself for enjoyment, and compulsively beating yourself up. Whereas we've learned 'They're just meaningless thoughts with no moral value. They don't  reflect  on me as a person or symbolise what I'd want or do in real life. Let them float away again without reacting' 

 

@snowbear, thank you so very much once again! 

I'm very sorry to be so stubborn (and hence annoying) but it is really safe to apply this kind of thinking when it comes to thoughts like the ones above? 

I want you to know that I do understand that it is only a thought and not reality but I still can't separate it from myself, a whole person. 

I could probably apply this thinking to any other sexual thought but it feels completely wrong and immoral to do it with the thoughts about my brother. 

I'm really sorry because I'm probably just going in circles, and taking you with me as well, but I just can't shake it off. Yes, I go to work and pretend like I'm normal, but when I'm home I feel like banging my head onto a wall. 

And the worst part is that I had that thought again, just now. And now I can't even go to sleep because that would mean I do want to think it. So I have to keep myself busy with music, or maybe a book, until I'm exhausted. It doesn't help that I'm alone home and have no one to talk to. 

Again, I'm very sorry because I do understand what you are saying but at the same time I don't. I want to apply everything I've been told and get better since I've had enough but the shame and guilt are so difficult to move on from. 

I'm not even sure what I'm expecting from this thread anymore. I saw a comment by another user addressed to someone else and I felt attacked. They were saying that the other person knew how to manipulate other people and that's how I feel right now. 

But at the same time I feel so rotten inside and don't understand how others don't see me as a monster. 

Edited by Cora
Link to comment
7 hours ago, malina said:

So we're back to this?!

You've been repeating this same story for years, you have gotten so much advice, you have been in therapy. You can't tell me that you don't know what is going on and the right steps to dealing with this.

You consistently choose the easy, albeit more painful way, of dealing with OCD. Confessing, seeking reassurance, this is the easy way out. Sitting with the anxiety, choosing to reframe the thoughts is hard.

It's just the same with your academic work. Procrastinating and wasting time are easy, studying is hard. You keep choosing the easy way, which has led you to this life that is miserable.

It's unfair because you've been dealt with something that is harder than most people will have to face, but you have to get out of it. You have to do the difficult things. Keep choosing the path of least resistance and you won't get anywhere.

I'm sorry to be so harsh because you know I think highly of you, but it's so frustrating to see you wasting your life on this complete and utter nonsense.

 

@malina, you are not being harsh. 

I don't want to sound (too) dramatic but I don't know what to say. 

I'm exhausted from having this kind of life (if you can even call it life) and even though I crave a change, I am so stuck. I think it doesn't help the fact that I'm used to being stuck, sometimes it even feels oddly comfortable. 

I had the most awful racist thoughts (and slurs) today as well as some very disturbing sexual thoughts about my colleague and I don't feel normal one single bit. Every day there is this circus happening in my brain and not one tiny moment of peace. 

Link to comment

Hi Cora

I feel you have been struggling for a while now. I recall you were going to have a medication review with your doc. Did that happen? Sometimes meds can provide relief that helps with logical thinking and provides ability to implement CBT lessons. 

Link to comment
20 hours ago, Cora said:

thank you so very much once again! 

I'm very sorry to be so stubborn (and hence annoying) but it is really safe to apply this kind of thinking when it comes to thoughts like the ones above? 

I want you to know that I do understand that it is only a thought and not reality but I still can't separate it from myself, a whole person. 

I could probably apply this thinking to any other sexual thought but it feels completely wrong and immoral to do it with the thoughts about my brother. 

Argh! :taz:

I went back to the explanations because every now and then it helps to remind people of the basics.

And you managed to turn it into a polite but meaningless thank you followed by ignoring every word I wrote and  instantly back to your old reassurance seeking:dry:  That little word 'but'.  Any time that word comes into your head in future - kill it. 

     Yes, I understand, but .... :giljotiini:  KILL THE BUT

Because the moment you add 'but'.... it shows very cleary that you either haven't understood, or aren't willing to take on board what you know to be the truth.

To then claim you 'probably could' apply the advice in another situation just not this one is downright insulting. :dry:  You've demonstrated over and over through hundreds of 'yes but this one is different' statements over multiple threads and several years that you are not willing to apply the advice to any situation.

Yes, you're going in circles, and yes it can be difficult to break out of that cycle. But it's not that hard either. Especially not if you truly understand what you're supposed to be doing differently to break free.

For some reason you just aren't doing it. :confused1:

Now, it just so happens that working out what the pay-offs for staying stuck are and why someone is choosing not to change is my speciality. :D

Because that was - and if I'm honest still is - me. :blush:

So, let's set aside the stuff you 'already understand'.  Let's approach this from another angle.

What are the payoffs to you keeping your OCD?

 

Don't get all upset and think you're being blamed   for not changing. We're throwing all that blame and  judgement thinking -all that guilt and shame response - out the window. Right out the window - whoosh - gone.  No more of that.

Which means I don't want to hear another apology, or self-depreciating remark from you. Not one. Got it? :mad:

Right. :) So...

What are the payoffs to you keeping your OCD?

Shall I start by telling you one of mine?

I won't give up the last of my OCD because the biggest pay-off is being allowed to stay housebound. As long as I look and act crazy people don't question me not going out of the house. If I went back to being normal I'm worried people would struggle to accept me not wanting to leave the house as just a choice. I'm afraid that if there was an emergency just outside the house they might expect me to sort the problem by myself instead of 'not being able to sort it' because I'm 'stuck indoors'.  Keeping my OCD has a HUGE payoff for me. (I don't have to explain to anyone that I'm actually happier living housebound than I would be if I was 'able' to come and go freely.)

So what's your biggest payoff?

Common ones people have are:-

- not having to make big decisions or move on in life  (can't be expected to do this if I'm 'unwell')

- not having to 'grow up'  (distract people from my childish behaviour by calling it ocd)

- the comfort and reassurance of the familiar (the hell you know is preferable to the promise of an unknown paradise)

-having ocd makes me feel different or special (and I don't want to give that up)

- if I didn't spend all my time thinking about ocd stuff I'd have to actually get off my butt and fill my days with something else! (and I'm too lazy to do that)

- having OCD has become just 'who I am' (and I don't know how to rebuild my identity as someone else)

 

...and so on. There are lots of possible payoffs. Some of these may apply to you or you might have some of your own. But one thing is for sure - something is driving you to hold onto your OCD instead of applying the changes that will get you well again.

Remember - no blame, no judgement, no guilt, no shame.

You're not alone in having something keeping you 'stuck'. It's not a character flaw, it's a straightforward explanation of what the obstacle(s) to progress currently are.

However perverse and unlikely they may seem at first glance, uncovering your personal payoffs enables you to acknowledge why you've been 'stuck' and makes moving forward a simple choice rather than a brick wall you don't know how to get around.

So it's a very worthwhile cognitive exercise. Please Cora, give it some serious thought.

Spend a few hours really imagining in detail what your life would look like without OCD. Then ask yourself what scares you in that image. What do you like about it? What do you not like about it?

Because somewhere in the scary/ don't like stuff will be the hidden payoffs to you not applying the CBT, not making changes, not giving up your OCD.

Link to comment

Hi @snowbear,

Some of the payoffs resulted from keeping my OCD include a few from the ones you mentioned: 

On 27/05/2023 at 22:45, snowbear said:

not having to make big decisions or move on in life

On 27/05/2023 at 22:45, snowbear said:

the comfort and reassurance of the familiar

On 27/05/2023 at 22:45, snowbear said:

if I didn't spend all my time thinking about ocd stuff I'd have to actually get off my butt and fill my days with something else! (and I'm too lazy to do that)

Another one (which is probably similar to the last payoff you enumerated) would be that I have no idea who I am without OCD so I've created a new Cora based on it, and the old Cora would be super boring and annoying with it.

Additionally, OCD gives me tens and tens of reasons to feel unworthy and underserving of a good, normal life which is a form of self loathing. I'm comfortable with hating myself and deserving the worst, including death because of my OCD. I don't know if I'm ready or if I want to have a life where I love myself and don't see myself as a piece of garbage. And I use these feelings to be irresponsible with important life choices and not move in life. 

Aside from the payoffs, I think there is also the issue of self-forgiveness. I think there are several moments from my past, such as pressing my thighs together to get a pleasurable sexual feeling in inappropriate circumstances, playing and cuddling with my brother and allowing it to turn into something sexual in my mind and possibly doing something wrong by not stopping the playing sooner, purposely allowing the baby cousin's feet on my pelvic while enjoying a groinal sensation, holding my brother's hand after getting a groinal response and not letting it go because of the feelings of enjoyment, and so, so, so, so, so many more things, that won't allow me to move on.

I think they should have never happened and it's all my fault for not having more control over my behaviours.

The past won't let me move on and after so many years I'm convinced that I'll have to live with it alongside the shame and guilt it brings for the rest of my life. My past tells me I'm a monster (well, my present too) and that I do deserve one of the biggest, most painful punishments that there is.  

I don't know how to forgive myself. I don't even know if I'm allowed to forgive myself.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Cora said:

Additionally, OCD gives me tens and tens of reasons to feel unworthy and underserving of a good, normal life which is a form of self loathing. I'm comfortable with hating myself and deserving the worst, including death because of my OCD. I don't know if I'm ready or if I want to have a life where I love myself and don't see myself as a piece of garbage. And I use these feelings to be irresponsible with important life choices and not move in life.

When I saw Snowbear's post and question, this is exactly what I thought was your reason. I think low self esteem and self loathing is the core of your problem and I think it's such a huge barrier in your recovery.

How long have you felt this way? Has this been the case your whole life?

Link to comment

Hi @malina

38 minutes ago, malina said:

Has this been the case your whole life?

No, I don't think so, maybe a little bit worthless here and there but nothing serious. I did, however, feel empty and like something was wrong with me, like I'm not a good person, from the age of 15 up until 19, when it shifted to feeling unworthy and deserving of punishment. 

Link to comment

Thank you for your honesty Cora. :)  It's never very comfortable looking inside ourselves to see what is keeping us stuck. But now that you've identified some of the reasons you can begin to address them instead of simply going round and round in circles with OCD.

 

48 minutes ago, Cora said:

Aside from the payoffs, I think there is also the issue of self-forgiveness.

I don't know how to forgive myself. I don't even know if I'm allowed to forgive myself.

 

You're definitely allowed to forgive yourself. :yes:  

In fact a nice person - exactly the kind of person I'm sure you'd like the new Cora to be - would understand that forgiving herself was morally the right thing to do.

Although it feels like beating yourself up is justified as a kind of punishment it's actually the wrong thing to do morally.

Take a moment to let that sink in, because it's important and it's the exact opposite of what you've been telling yourself all this time. This is the kind of adjustment you need to start making to your thinking.

You have to stop assuming that because you've always thought a certain way that it was the right way (the only way, the morally good way) to think.

You need to open your mind to alternative ways of thinking, different ways to approach a problem, different ways to be a good person without having to be unkind to yourself to achieve it.

A good place to start is to accept that self-forgiveness is the foundation stone of forgiving others.

Time and again I hear people say they are really good at forgiving others, but aren't willing to forgive themselves over far lesser things. They always say it like it's a virtue to hold themselves to a higher standard. :dry:   But that too is one of those screwed up thinking assumptions that when you unravel it turns out not to be true. I won't get sidetracked into explaining in depth here why that's so, but take it from me there's been a lot of scientific study on self-forgiveness and the results of that research teach us all that we need to think again!

So, yes. Forgive yourself. I'm not going to get into the reassurance game by telling you you've done no wrong. But I can assure you that nothing you've done is unforgiveable.

 

How do you forgive yourself?

We have to learn to treat ourselves the same way we would treat a good friend. You'd not be much of a friend if you held a grudge after they said sorry, right? So simply say to yourself, 'I'm sorry for any wrongdoing in my past.' And then accept the apology just as you would accept an apology from a friend. And let it go. Start over with a clean slate.

 

59 minutes ago, Cora said:

OCD gives me tens and tens of reasons to feel unworthy and underserving of a good, normal life which is a form of self loathing. I'm comfortable with hating myself and deserving the worst, including death because of my OCD.

It's not uncommon for people to dislike themselves. It's easier to indulge in self-loathing than it is to fix the things you don't like about yourself.  That's just human nature really. Like reaching for yet more comfort food is easier than getting up off the sofa and doing something about being overweight. We all do it now and then, but when it becomes something you do ALL the time it blinds you to the fact there ARE alternative ways to think and behave.

So to overcome your bad habit of self-loathing you will have to put some effort in. Exercise your brain. Practise being nicer to yourself. Get used to thinking about yourself differently, instead of always falling back on the old habit of thinking you are undeserving etc.

Becoming deserving is very simple. Start behaving nicely to yourself! Remember, if you're nice to others but unforgiving towards yourself that's exactly the sort of thing that can be considered undeserving. If you've been under the illusion that punishing yourself,  loathing yourself and beating yourself up somehow made you a better person - you've got it all twisted.

So again, you're going to have to change some of the assumptions you've made in the past. Start getting your head around this new way of thinking.

 

Quote

I don't know if I'm ready or if I want to have a life where I love myself and don't see myself as a piece of garbage. And I use these feelings to be irresponsible with important life choices and not move in life. 

Maybe you're not ready. Or maybe you are ready and you're just scared to take the first step.

Turning your life around requires change.

(Talk about stating the obvious! :laugh: ) But I think it needs to be said. 

A lot of people waste their entire lives hoping things will somehow improve while at the same time wanting nothing to change.

Change means facing the unfamiliar. It's the same for everybody. It means stepping out of your comfort zone and trying something new.  But some people think of that as scary and some people embrace it as a kind of adventure. Which mindset do you think sucessful, happy people have?  :)

Nobody can force you to change. If you want to live your entire life as a piece of garbage - go right ahead. If you want to waste the next 50 years thinking as you think now, behaving badly towards yourself as you do now - go right ahead. Nobody is going to stop you.

Whether you choose to change or not is entirely up to you. It's your life. Be happy, be miserable. Your choice. You're free to live your life any way you want. You don't have to justify choosing to think in a screwed up way to anybody. But don't expect sympathy for being unhappy. And don't imagine somebody else is going to fix it for you.

Each of us is responsible for making ourselves into the kind of person we want to be.

It's hard work. It's trial and error. It's getting a lot of things wrong, forgiving yourself and trying again (or trying something else.)  It's exciting. It's fun. An adventure of self-discovery. :)

But don't imagine that if you do nothing to grow as a person that it's going to be easier. :no:  Life will still be hard work. You'll face challenges and beat yourself up for 'getting it wrong'. You'll be scared much of the time, bored a lot of the time and you'll hate yourself all of the time.  Amazingly, a lot of people do choose this way of thinking and behaving! Which is sad, but hey - their choice and I uphold their right to choose.

 

Ok, as usual I've waffled on. :blush: So final words, 

2 hours ago, Cora said:

I have no idea who I am without OCD so I've created a new Cora based on it, and the old Cora would be super boring and annoying with it.

Our sense of identity is always open to change. Like changing your thinking and changing your behaviour it starts with wanting to change.

You can create a new identity as you go along through life. Reinvent yourself as often as you like. Just use your imagination. Conjure up an idea of the kind of person you would like to be and then think and behave as if you already are that person.

If you're unsure where to start why not take each of the 'payoffs' you identified and one by one eliminate them from the future you. As you tackle the changes a new identity will emerge. And it might just surprise you. :) 

Link to comment

I'm obviously not an expert or trained to tell you anything beyond giving advice as a fellow sufferer. However, my opinion is that your self loating is something that is happening in addition to OCD and making the OCD worse. You know how some people can have OCD and depression or OCD and generalised anxiety disorder etc. I think you have OCD and low self esteem. I do think this problem goes a little bit beyond OCD, but it also probably interacts with the OCD. The thoughts you get with OCD make you feel worse about yourself, but it's also difficult to deal with OCD because you already think badly of yourself and its hard to accept these thoughts as OCD as a result. So, this self loating and low self esteem keep you in a loop with OCD.

I think Snowbear gave you some amazing advice. I really don't know what to tell you except that I think you're a wonderful person! I know we haven't met but we've been interacting for years and I can tell that you're considerate, kind, intelligent and strong, and it makes me sad that someone with so much to offer feels so badly about herself. But what I think doesn't really matter unless you think it too, which you currently don't (but hopefully this will change).

6 hours ago, Cora said:

 did, however, feel empty and like something was wrong with me, like I'm not a good person

I can kind of relate to this. I felt this emptyness too and the feeling that something was wrong with me. I carried that feeling for a long time too. In my case, it wasn't necessarily about being a bad person, but it turned into a feeling of doom, like something bad was destined to happen to me. I didn't know I had OCD and then when the undiagnosed OCD got much worse, bad things did start to happen and it kind of confirmed this awful feeling. Of course, it was the OCD itself that was driving the feeling all along but it took me a long time to see that. In fact, I think I still experience it. For the longest time I didn't dare to fantasise about my marriage and future family life, because it also felt doomed. Then, I got married and OCD has been causing me problems and intrusive thoughts about my husband. So, it again feels like this feeling of dread came true. But it didn't, it's OCD that created both the feeling and the bad thing.

I think it's similar for you. You feel like you're a bad person, then you get intrusive thoughts about doing bad things and the confirms to you that you are bad. But, again, it doesn't really, it's all part of the same problem, the feeling and the outcome.

One more question. When did you first start to experience OCD? I remember your story that it started a few years ago with some intrusive thoughts about children while at your brother's school, right? Was this the first thing ever or do you recognise something from earlier on that kind of clicks with OCD?

 

Link to comment

Thank you very much, @snowbear

12 hours ago, snowbear said:

So, yes. Forgive yourself. I'm not going to get into the reassurance game by telling you you've done no wrong. But I can assure you that nothing you've done is unforgiveable.

How do you forgive yourself?

We have to learn to treat ourselves the same way we would treat a good friend. You'd not be much of a friend if you held a grudge after they said sorry, right? So simply say to yourself, 'I'm sorry for any wrongdoing in my past.' And then accept the apology just as you would accept an apology from a friend. And let it go. Start over with a clean slate.

I don't want to focus on it too much (even though it's tempting and comforting) but can I ask if there is a limit to how much/many times you can forget yourself? I'm asking that because even if I forgive myself for certain things, others pop back into my mind, I try to forgive myself again, more things pop back, and it gets to a point where I ask myself how much forgiveness is allowed. After that I completely decide to not forgive myself anymore because there are way too many mistakes, wrongdoings and weird things, and I end up in a miserable spot and see myself as a monster. 

12 hours ago, snowbear said:

Becoming deserving is very simple. Start behaving nicely to yourself! Remember, if you're nice to others but unforgiving towards yourself that's exactly the sort of thing that can be considered undeserving. If you've been under the illusion that punishing yourself,  loathing yourself and beating yourself up somehow made you a better person - you've got it all twisted.

I think this is a difficult one. I'm not always a nice person. I am a very short tempered person, tend to judge people quickly, get a change of feelings in a matter of minutes or even seconds (I can go from happy to angry or annoyed very quickly if someone says or does something I don't like, even if it's minor) and I struggle to control it and not show it on my face and body language, and can be lazy and don't wish to help (just last week I had to phone somewhere for a friend's mum because she doesn't speak English very well and I didn't want to do it, and now I feel guilty). I don't think I work enough to change these things. I thought that by 25 I would have these flaws at least half fixed but I have a very, very long way to go. The thing I'm mostly worried is the impact of these flaws on other people, especially my brother, my boyfriend and my friend. 

I think this is why sometimes I think that punishing myself and beating myself up feels fair - because I wasn't kind and nice enough to other people. 

12 hours ago, snowbear said:

Each of us is responsible for making ourselves into the kind of person we want to be.

It's hard work. It's trial and error. It's getting a lot of things wrong, forgiving yourself and trying again (or trying something else.)  It's exciting. It's fun. An adventure of self-discovery.

The way you describe it sounds like an adventure indeed. On some good days, I do think about a new, fresh and happy Cora and it's a very beautiful feeling. 

 

12 hours ago, snowbear said:

If you're unsure where to start why not take each of the 'payoffs' you identified and one by one eliminate them from the future you. As you tackle the changes a new identity will emerge. And it might just surprise you.

I definitely didn't know where to start so thank you for this. 

Link to comment
16 minutes ago, Cora said:

can I ask if there is a limit to how much/many times you can forgive yourself? I'm asking that because even if I forgive myself for certain things, others pop back into my mind, I try to forgive myself again, more things pop back, and it gets to a point where I ask myself how much forgiveness is allowed

When you truly understand forgiveness you realise it is limitless and unconditional. It's a huge topic. I could probably write a dissertation on it, so suffice to say - don't focus on the detail as in 'I forgive myself for this, this, and that.'

Make it general. 'I forgive myself for ALL my past mistakes. I forgive myself for my ongoing character flaws even as I try to correct them. I forgive myself for all future mistakes even before I've made them, because the person I want to become is loving and forgiving and to become that person I have to think and act as if I'm already her. '  :)

 

16 minutes ago, Cora said:

I'm not always a nice person. I am a very short tempered person, tend to judge people quickly, get a change of feelings in a matter of minutes or even seconds and I struggle to control it and not show it on my face and body language, and can be lazy and don't wish to help 

I don't think I work enough to change these things. I thought that by 25 I would have these flaws at least half fixed but I have a very, very long way to go. The thing I'm mostly worried is the impact of these flaws on other people, especially my brother, my boyfriend and my friend. 

Sheesh! What are you trying to be - a saint? What you're describing is a normal human being. I know people 3 times your age who have the same 'flaws' and they aren't even trying to correct them. I think you've set yourself some pretty impossible goals there. It's no wonder you struggle to achieve 'being a nice person.' By your definition and expections I think we'd all be ruled out as bad or unworthy in some respect!

I think you're also being hyper-responsible around the effect you have on other people. Give people some credit for being able to cope with you as you are, flaws and all.

 

16 minutes ago, Cora said:

On some good days, I do think about a new, fresh and happy Cora and it's a very beautiful feeling. 

Yes! It is. Go with that. Nuture those good days. Nuture yourself and be kind to yourself so that there are more and more of those days, and over time you'll find yourself on the right path without having to try so hard. :)

Link to comment

Thank you, @malina.

6 hours ago, malina said:

I do think this problem goes a little bit beyond OCD, but it also probably interacts with the OCD. The thoughts you get with OCD make you feel worse about yourself, but it's also difficult to deal with OCD because you already think badly of yourself and its hard to accept these thoughts as OCD as a result. So, this self loathing and low self esteem keep you in a loop with OCD.

Yes, I think you are right about this. It does make a lot of sense. 

6 hours ago, malina said:

I know we haven't met but we've been interacting for years and I can tell that you're considerate, kind, intelligent and strong,

Thank you so very much for these kind words 😊.

6 hours ago, malina said:

One more question. When did you first start to experience OCD? I remember your story that it started a few years ago with some intrusive thoughts about children while at your brother's school, right? Was this the first thing ever or do you recognise something from earlier on that kind of clicks with OCD?

My first experience was when I was 17. I had a sexual thought/image about Jesus (I had on purpose for some reason but I don't think it matters) while praying before dinner. I'm not religious but back then I lived with my aunt who was religious so I followed her "rules". I felt weird and horrible after that and even tried to confess to a priest but ended up lying, saying I had a sexual thought about my then boyfriend instead. A few months later I moved to England so I didn't have to pray or go to church anymore and it made me feel so much better. 

That was then followed by my second experience which was in the spring of 2018. I had sexual thoughts and images about my dad and they lasted for a month before I read something about intrusive thoughts and gave me the first dose of reassurance. They came back in June but I think they went away when I started before I started uni. Around the same time I think I had my first ever groinal response after thinking a child was attractive and wanting his attention (I know, gross!) while waiting to pick up my brother from school. I lived with mild groinal responses for some time but it didn't bother me and most of my first year at uni was great. 

It all came crushing down in May 2019 when I was playing with my brother and pushed his legs together in weird way and it felt like I did it for sexual reasons and intentions. I couldn't stop thinking about that day and night. And everything else started from there. (Thinking about that first incident is slightly triggering because to this day I don't know what my intentions were and even though I stopped it, my brother didn't like it and I still feel really awful.)

 

Link to comment

I think the question to ask yourself is what purpose to feelings like guilt and shame serve? They obviously have some value, otherwise people wouldn't feel them. I think primarily the purpose is to regulate our behaviour and to learn from mistakes. If you do something wrong, you feel bad about it, and that bad feeling teaches you a valuable lesson to do things differently. But then you learn the lesson and you move forward and leave that feeling behind. What is the purpose of punishment? It's the same thing, to regulate behaviour. But eventually, feeling shame, guilt and punishing yourself for things for a prolonged period of time becomes pointless, it no longer serves a purpose. So why continue with it? I would argue that self punishment is indeed self indulgent. It's an excuse. A painful and awful excuse, but still an excuse. I'm not willing to do the hard work to make myself a better person, so I'm going to inflict punishement on myself instead. Self hatred is horrible but it's easier than change. I think change is the hardest thing for a person to do.

So as I was saying before, if you truly strive to be a good person, punishment is not the way. Punishment is the easy way out, just like procrastinating, wasting time. It's indulging in all your negativity. Shedding yourself of shame and guilt, allowing yourself to emerge as a positive and productive person, that is the way to be good.

And I agree, there is no limit to how many times you should forgive yourself. Life is so vast, you will do a million bad things in your life. Each time, you look at what happened, make a plan to do better and move forward. And everytime you feel the pull into shame, self hatred and punishment, remind yourself that these behaviours are not a virtue. These behaviours will not make you a good person. They are just self indulgent excuses that stop you from doing the right thing and making amends.

And remember, nothing is terminal. If you've done something bad or hurt someone, there is always a way to fix it. It may not seem that way at the time and fixing it may be very difficult, but there is always a way. But to do all of that you need positivity and drive. Not procrastination, negativity and wallowing in self hatred.

So, tell us something you're proud of Cora! What is something you like about yourself?

 

Link to comment
39 minutes ago, snowbear said:

I know people 3 times your age who have the same 'flaws' and they aren't even trying to correct them. 

I am one of those people :D I used to be a lot like you @Cora trying to be nice to everyone and make everyone else happy. Learning to stop doing that and embrace your flaws...and not caring how people will react to it...is one of the most liberating things ever! S

Link to comment
21 minutes ago, malina said:

I think the question to ask yourself is what purpose to feelings like guilt and shame serve? They obviously have some value, otherwise people wouldn't feel them. I think primarily the purpose is to regulate our behaviour and to learn from mistakes. If you do something wrong, you feel bad about it, and that bad feeling teaches you a valuable lesson to do things differently. But then you learn the lesson and you move forward and leave that feeling behind. What is the purpose of punishment? It's the same thing, to regulate behaviour. But eventually, feeling shame, guilt and punishing yourself for things for a prolonged period of time becomes pointless, it no longer serves a purpose. So why continue with it? I would argue that self punishment is indeed self indulgent. It's an excuse. A painful and awful excuse, but still an excuse. I'm not willing to do the hard work to make myself a better person, so I'm going to inflict punishement on myself instead. Self hatred is horrible but it's easier than change. I think change is the hardest thing for a person to do.

So as I was saying before, if you truly strive to be a good person, punishment is not the way. Punishment is the easy way out, just like procrastinating, wasting time. It's indulging in all your negativity. Shedding yourself of shame and guilt, allowing yourself to emerge as a positive and productive person, that is the way to be good.

And I agree, there is no limit to how many times you should forgive yourself. Life is so vast, you will do a million bad things in your life. Each time, you look at what happened, make a plan to do better and move forward. And everytime you feel the pull into shame, self hatred and punishment, remind yourself that these behaviours are not a virtue. These behaviours will not make you a good person. They are just self indulgent excuses that stop you from doing the right thing and making amends.

And remember, nothing is terminal. If you've done something bad or hurt someone, there is always a way to fix it. It may not seem that way at the time and fixing it may be very difficult, but there is always a way. But to do all of that you need positivity and drive. Not procrastination, negativity and wallowing in self hatred.

So, tell us something you're proud of Cora! What is something you like about yourself?

 

:goodpost:

Excellent advice, Cora. Bookmark it and read it over and over until you know it by heart!

Link to comment

Hi Cora

A detailed account of shame, guilt and punishment is found in Victoria Bream et al ‘CBT for OCD’ it rests on Paul Gilbert’s work. The authors work at CADAT and at the Oxford Centre. They discuss whether in some instances shame rather than anxiety perpetuates OCD.  Internal shame is the feeling that I am evil for having these thoughts and external shame is the fear what if other people found out I had these thoughts then I would be condemned. The authors explanation of shame is evolutionary to do with the fact that we are a social species.

It is great that you are going to CADAT these themes will be discussed in therapy. When is your therapy scheduled?

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...